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National Guardsman Responds to Talking Heads
Topic Started: May 12 2009, 04:23 PM (314 Views)
zzphilanchez
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In a letter to columnist Charles Krauthammer, a National Guard Lieutenant Colonel explains why torture is wrong.

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Foreign Policy.com
 
Mr. Krauthammer,

I don't usually make a point of responding to the talking-head proselytizers in my Sunday paper but your column prompted me to do so.

I'll make this simple. There are NO circumstances under which torture is acceptable. Jack Bauer's "24" makes for great TV but even in a ticking timebomb situation such behavior is inappropriate and illegal. Torture is counter to our moral code, a violation of the Geneva and Hague conventions to which we subscribe and perhaps least understood, but most significantly, counterproductive and ineffective. Nothing else really needs to be said, but if you want more details read on.

I have friends who have been to SERE and instructed SERE students and acted as interrogators. All agree that waterboarding and other such 'enhanced' techniques are good for training (in a strictly controlled environment) our soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines on what to expect in captivity. They also agree that it is torture to anyone outside that training environment. Finally, they all agree that torture rarely results in actionable intelligence, as the victim is willing to say most anything to end the torture.

So you must wonder, by what authority is this letter writer speaking? Well, as a Lieutenant Colonel and Combat Arms Battalion Commander in the Army I am responsible for the welfare, training, good order, and discipline of my soldiers. I am responsible for everything they do or fail to do. I am also responsible to follow and issue only those orders that are legal, ethical and moral. Torture of another human being is illegal, unethical and immoral, and I would be duty bound to disobey any such order...just as PFC Lynndie England and SPC Charles Graner (and their many counterparts, senior officers and NCOs at Abu Ghraib) should have done...just as any of my soldiers should disobey should I give such an order. We all have the lessons of Nuremburg to rely upon anytime such questions come to mind; "I was just following orders" is never justification for committing crimes against other human beings.

Before deploying to Iraq last year, I explained these things to my troopers. It is difficult to explain to young (practically) kids, with little experience, and poor knowledge of the world...but if you are caring and committed, and repeat yourself often enough they learn and understand. I told them the most important thing they needed to take away from all their preparations was that while it would be terrible to lose one of them or have one of them seriously physically injured, it would be worse to have them come home physically well and mentally broken because they had somehow lost their humanity. Torture destroys our humanity, and any equivocation (feel free to exercise the Kantian absolutist vs utilitarian argument to your heart's content) on the matter is just bullshit.

. . . If captured I would honor our Armed Forces Code of Conduct to the best of my ability and go to whatever my fate, resolute in the knowledge that our nation remains a last bastion of what is right (or ought to be right) in the world. Torture has no place in America, and Americans have no reason to employ it. War ain't fair, but we have to fight it while maintaining a level of dignity and humanity, jus in bello. This is rough work for people bound to a code of Duty, Honor, Country. Proselytizers, who say but do not act, need not apply.
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aramil
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Owned pretty badly. It's great when those who actually know what they're talking about speak up.
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zzphilanchez
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Indeed. This made my day, and shows why Foreign Policy.com pwns all.
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,12 May 2009 20.45.16] Owned pretty badly. It's great when those who actually know what they're talking about speak up.

I'd agree that he was pretty thorough, but he never provided any evidence at all to point to support his claim that torture never works.
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About time someone shoved Kraut's foot in his mouth. He really needs to be Litvinenko'd.
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United States [Sel]
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,12 May 2009 21.08.49]
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,12 May 2009 20.45.16] Owned pretty badly. It's great when those who actually know what they're talking about speak up.

I'd agree that he was pretty thorough, but he never provided any evidence at all to point to support his claim that torture never works.

It's called personal experience.
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Theoretically I don't understand how torture would be so effective as it is in "lolsuperman 24." Ideological motivation can drive someone past pain, otherwise why would they be in that place? There's already some resistance, or they wouldn't be against you.

Even in the ticking-timebomb scenario, if I'm the terrorist I would just give you false info to satisfy you for long enough that the attack succeeds. And I make myself a martyr politically because you tortured me.

Lose-lose for you.
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zzphilanchez
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,12 May 2009 21.13.39] Theoretically I don't understand how torture would be so effective as it is in "lolsuperman 24." Ideological motivation can drive someone past pain, otherwise why would they be in that place? There's already some resistance, or they wouldn't be against you.

Even in the ticking-timebomb scenario, if I'm the terrorist I would just give you false info to satisfy you for long enough that the attack succeeds. And I make myself a martyr politically because you tortured me.

Lose-lose for you.

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zzwanderjar
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,12 May 2009 21.13.39] Theoretically I don't understand how torture would be so effective as it is in "lolsuperman 24." Ideological motivation can drive someone past pain, otherwise why would they be in that place? There's already some resistance, or they wouldn't be against you.

Even in the ticking-timebomb scenario, if I'm the terrorist I would just give you false info to satisfy you for long enough that the attack succeeds. And I make myself a martyr politically because you tortured me.

Lose-lose for you.

It usually doesn't work that way. Frankly, it depends on the person. Sometimes torture can be effective if the person is weak willed and will simply crack under the pressure. Others who give out longer will ultimately not give up anything of use, and if they do its time frame of usefulness has usually passed. Additionally, people will say all kinds of things to make the pain stop, thats true, but generally questions involved in torture cannot be answered in such a fashion. Generally speaking what happens is that the intel recieved from the person is matched up with present intelligence analysts. If they say, "Yeah, this intel checks out to a theory we have" then they know what is up and go with it. If it simply doesn't check out, they keep going to see if it varies the next time he talks or if it remains consistant. A liar can easily be exposed because, when fatigued, in pain, and under unbelievable stress, your ability to continue lying about something and remembering a made up story is shockingly difficult.

But hell... Truth is, the average solder, sailor, or marine doesn't know shit, so getting intel out of him is useless anyway. That being said, I don't approve of it in any way, shape, or form. We're supposed to be the good guys...the good guys don't do shit like that.
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Quote:
 
It usually doesn't work that way. Frankly, it depends on the person. Sometimes torture can be effective if the person is weak willed and will simply crack under the pressure. Others who give out longer will ultimately not give up anything of use, and if they do its time frame of usefulness has usually passed. Additionally, people will say all kinds of things to make the pain stop, thats true, but generally questions involved in torture cannot be answered in such a fashion. Generally speaking what happens is that the intel recieved from the person is matched up with present intelligence analysts. If they say, "Yeah, this intel checks out to a theory we have" then they know what is up and go with it. If it simply doesn't check out, they keep going to see if it varies the next time he talks or if it remains consistant. A liar can easily be exposed because, when fatigued, in pain, and under unbelievable stress, your ability to continue lying about something and remembering a made up story is shockingly difficult.

That's an assumption. The chances of a terrorist being weak willed and yet having a chance of possessing intel worthy are pretty damn low. The average grunt won't know shit so torturing them is useless.

BOLDED SECTION: Interrogation techniques - if a person repeats a story with ease, and apparently accurately every time it's because they're trying to fool you with their "accuracy". Under stress, real people aren't that good. People forget, people fuck up. Even more so when all you are is the embodiment of pain.

When a person consistently repeats the same story "broken record" or whatever, they're trying to convince you it's genuine. The human mind goes "well, if I make it sound convincing enough..." and then the subject take it too far.

The lack of variations or change of detail is the giaveaway, in part for the reason I just mentioned (self convinced that "accuracy" will be convincing) and another important factor - if you make up a story, it likely will lack the creative, abstract details reality has. A constantly repeated story suggests it's false because the human mind won't come up with additional details to throw in or distract you with every retelling of the story.

Real people can't remember verbatim. They change as they realize or forget details that they didn't think of before. Because a person made up a story, they "know" all the details, and include them to make the story seem real. But trouble is, that also means there's none of the honest, tell-tale "human error" factor which a real story will change with, as perceptions of a situation change.

Interrogators don't think of the mind as a clockwork, finely-tuned machine. Otherwise, why would they bother trying to break it?
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zzdoncampos
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Torture is for the weak. Any person who considers it a viable way of getting evidence is an idiot. The movie with Leonardo DiCaprio about the CIA in Jordan is good.
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