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Ok, so....
Topic Started: May 21 2009, 04:10 AM (581 Views)
United States [Sel]
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The Creator
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There was a like 70-30 margin to have a Palestinian Authority, Kosovo, and Taiwan. Two were claimed, none RPed. What exactly was the point in allowing these unrecognized entities to be played?

None. I think it is only proper that we return to the old policy and allow myself, Goodie, and Stok to play our rogue territories. I would be able to play the Palestinians adequately (what's there to play really) and fairly (no Third Intifada, but no giving in to the Zionist thugs). I may call for someone to play them when we're planning peace talks, but I think I could handle such a thing myself.

I really think that the Palestinians should be RPed by Israel because the two entities <_< are so intertwined. Goodie and Stok can speak for themselves.
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J.B. Hemlock
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These entities occupy a special area: They aren't like other small countries in that they have an importance that far outstrips their size. By having them exist as playable entities, you open up the possibility for some really interesting RP. RP that you simply could not get by having them played by their "parent" countries. At the same time, by allowing them to be claimed, you open yourself up to the possibility for them to be claimed by a relatively inactive player. Which is a problem, since they really have to be played.

I'm still in favor of allowing them to be claimed. I think maybe we should modify the claiming rules for them, though.

By default, they should be played by their "parent" country. Taiwan should be played by China, the PA by Israel, etc. This allows them to operate in the game, though it does open things up to the strong possibility of farcical RP - we saw some of this last round, you will recall. Last round we were pretty good at jumping on unrealistic RP between these entities and their parent countries. If we revert to "parent plays", we need to ensure we'll really stay on the ball about this.

Now, at the same time, I'd like these entities to remain claimable. We should, however, hold the players of these countries to a higher standard than we would normally. Let's use the same criteria that we'd use for allowing someone to claim a large and important nation. That way we'll only see people who are both really interested and really capable of playing these entities claiming them.
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zzrider
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Sorry Sel, but shotty rping doesn't justify what your talking about.
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zzgoodie
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Belarus [Rider
 
,21 May 2009 09.31.19]Sorry Sel, but shotty rping doesn't justify what your talking about.

Then again, you weren't around when I made the exception to this statement. To our credit, I do hope you paid attention to Stok playing as Taiwan last round. He did a bang up job trying to secure Taiwan as a nation, and simultaneously trying to undermine it.

However, I do feel like Sel has a point (for once :P) in that there was so much interest and supporting arguments for allowing these rogues provinces to be played, and even claims to them. And then nobody steps up. Why is that?
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Zactarn Prime
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Because good RPers have to play them. THey require alot of determination and some damn good RPing. I feel they should be claimable but so long as they are un-claimed be fully RPed by their "parent" nation.

I.E. Stok RP's Taiwan since we do not have one.

They should be RPed but should only be left up good and determined RPers. THe problem is those guys wanna pick big nations: A la Dax with the USA and Recon or Skylar with the UK; and yes Sel, even you (wow I gave you a compliment :P) with Israel
Now Presenting:

USA
President: Marco Rubio
Vice-President: Luis Fortuno
Secretary of State: TBD
Secretary of Defense: TBD
Head of Joint-Chiefs of Staff: TBD
Allies: UK, Israel, Japan, RoK, Canada
Strained: Iran, Syria, Mali, Santo Domingo, Pakistan
At War:
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aramil
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I don't think we can let an RPer essentially play an entity in opposition to themselves in any circumstance. I don't doubt the ability of our Chinese, Serbian, and Israeli players, but their intentions; an RPer of those three nations is fundamentally looking out for those three nations, not their separatist entities.
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President: Hu Jintao
Premier: Wen Jiabao
Population: 1.35 billion (as of 2009; 0.7% growth; 1st)
GDP: $8 trillion (as of 2009; 9% growth; 2nd)
Organizations: UN, APEC, ASEAN+3, SCO, BRIC
Allies: TBD
Conflicts: that wayward island
Strained Relations: TBD
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zzJJ
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I say we stay with the current rule.
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United States [Sel]
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It actually works better with my current RP plan to neither RP them as the Third Intifada nor as pushovers. It would be really helpful if I could play them rather than wait for someone to come along and claim.

Zac, we have Crack in Taiwan and he has'nt posted much if anything. That may be something personal, but still.
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Russia (X)
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Most people haven't posted much of anything. Yet. I still have faith, though.

Besides, Crack is usually a tad quiet. As are a lot of people. Stuff will come over time.

Also, whatever happened to those -Stans?
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aramil
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Stans still exist, at least my awesome neighbor Turkmenistan does.

IMO, we should simply have an NPC RPer for unplayed areas that involve players' plans...
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President: Hu Jintao
Premier: Wen Jiabao
Population: 1.35 billion (as of 2009; 0.7% growth; 1st)
GDP: $8 trillion (as of 2009; 9% growth; 2nd)
Organizations: UN, APEC, ASEAN+3, SCO, BRIC
Allies: TBD
Conflicts: that wayward island
Strained Relations: TBD
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zzcrackzilla
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I'm not posting because I'm focusing on my classes. I'm failing in one of them, and my finals are in a few weeks.
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Zactarn Prime
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Iran [Aramil
 
,22 May 2009 22.23.34] my awesome neighbor Turkmenistan

:D
Now Presenting:

USA
President: Marco Rubio
Vice-President: Luis Fortuno
Secretary of State: TBD
Secretary of Defense: TBD
Head of Joint-Chiefs of Staff: TBD
Allies: UK, Israel, Japan, RoK, Canada
Strained: Iran, Syria, Mali, Santo Domingo, Pakistan
At War:
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Greece (TheOne)
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Taiwan [Crackzilla
 
,22 May 2009 23.21.26] I'm not posting because I'm focusing on my classes. I'm failing in one of them, and my finals are in a few weeks.

This isn't a personal attack on you, but I've never understood why people who have schooling commitments and lack the time to participate properly in a nation rp, actually bother. And a lot of the time these people take important countries like Germany or Russia etc, and go inactive. Then they come back and say, oh sorry I had exams or some crap excuse. I call it a crap excuse because it's not like they weren't aware they'd have exams.

You with Taiwan it's not that bad of a situation, because China has other concerns around the region besides Taiwan so it doesn't affect that player too much.
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zzmaikeru
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I agree with pretty much everyone but Sel here. All three are de-facto independent, something we can't overlook just because of Sel's eccentric political feelings on rebelling territories. Like it or not, those countries which lay claims to their land do not govern that land, so there is no reason to let them govern them in-game (by giving the countries IC indirect control via the player).

Inevitably, the player will be looking out for himself. We can't allow people to play territories with different governments which oppose theirain country. That opens the door to abuse of the worst degree, and although we have had some players mature enough not to abuse that power, they are few and far between.

Just because Matt is a shitty player whom you never should have let come back doesn't mean the idea is a failure. He's not playing cause he's an idiot who signs up and then decides 21C is a crap game which isn't worth playing without trying it for even a second. Trust me, he'd be doing the same with any "real" country.
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zzneo
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Saudi Arabia [Maikeru
 
,23 May 2009 08.22.29] I agree with pretty much everyone but Sel here. All three are de-facto independent, something we can't overlook just because of Sel's eccentric political feelings on rebelling territories. Like it or not, those countries which lay claims to their land do not govern that land, so there is no reason to let them govern them in-game (by giving the countries IC indirect control via the player).

Inevitably, the player will be looking out for himself. We can't allow people to play territories with different governments which oppose theirain country. That opens the door to abuse of the worst degree, and although we have had some players mature enough not to abuse that power, they are few and far between.

Just because Matt is a shitty player whom you never should have let come back doesn't mean the idea is a failure. He's not playing cause he's an idiot who signs up and then decides 21C is a crap game which isn't worth playing without trying it for even a second. Trust me, he'd be doing the same with any "real" country.

I second this.

I've argued for the RP of de facto nations for the longest time now, but we haven't gotten anywhere. And I doubt that Sel will change his mind anytime soon, so I stuck with my country.
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Recon
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Saudi Arabia [Maikeru
 
,23 May 2009 08.22.29] Just because Matt is a shitty player whom you never should have let come back doesn't mean the idea is a failure. He's not playing cause he's an idiot who signs up and then decides 21C is a crap game which isn't worth playing without trying it for even a second. Trust me, he'd be doing the same with any "real" country.

Well said Maik!

I will be holding you to this when Matt returns and I criticise him and get a ear full from you!
[align=center]Head of State (President): Moncef Marzouki (Congress for the Republic)
Head of Government (Prime Minister): Hamadi Jebali (Ennahda)
Population: 10.6 Million (2012 est.)
GDP (Real): $44bn (2012 est.)
Organizations: Arab League (AL), Arab Maghreb Union (AMU), African Union (AU), International Criminal Court (ICC), International Monetary Fund (IMF,) Non Aligned Movement (NAM), United Nations (UN) & World Trade Organisation (WTO).
Strained Relations/War: Saudi Arabia, Libya and Israel /None

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zzmatt
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:o
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zzmaikeru
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United States [Recon
 
,23 May 2009 09.33.55]
Saudi Arabia [Maikeru
 
,23 May 2009 08.22.29] Just because Matt is a shitty player whom you never should have let come back doesn't mean the idea is a failure. He's not playing cause he's an idiot who signs up and then decides 21C is a crap game which isn't worth playing without trying it for even a second. Trust me, he'd be doing the same with any "real" country.

Well said Maik!

I will be holding you to this when Matt returns and I criticise him and get a ear full from you!

Doesn't look like it's going to matter. I've tried and tried to get him to return, with no success. I don't think he's going to.

As for you, even if he does return, would you even be on enough to notice? :P

EDIT: Hello Matt.
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zzLyly
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The point of voting to have those quasi-nations available for claiming was to represent the generally-accepted view of the world and to have the opportunity to have them claimed.
Using their unclaimed/RPed status as an excuse to revoke that right is like revoking the right to free speech simply because someone's not exercising it. (A more appropriate analogy would be the American right to bear arms, but that's an arguable point.)
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J.B. Hemlock
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Nah, I don't think that's it at all, Ly. The problem with those entities is that their importance far outstrips their size. We can't tolerate someone claiming the UK and then not playing, can we? It's the same thing with the PA or Taiwan.

I think maybe the problem stems from us not making their importance clear. We've said this round "oh, we'll allow them to be claimed", where we should have said "oh, we'll allow them to be claimed. They're important countries, so don't claim them unless you can really commit to playing them".
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Zactarn Prime
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Quote:
 
Nah, I don't think that's it at all, Ly. The problem with those entities is that their importance far outstrips their size. We can't tolerate someone claiming the UK and then not playing, can we? It's the same thing with the PA or Taiwan.

I think maybe the problem stems from us not making their importance clear. We've said this round "oh, we'll allow them to be claimed", where we should have said "oh, we'll allow them to be claimed. They're important countries, so don't claim them unless you can really commit to playing them".




Exactly What I Said
Now Presenting:

USA
President: Marco Rubio
Vice-President: Luis Fortuno
Secretary of State: TBD
Secretary of Defense: TBD
Head of Joint-Chiefs of Staff: TBD
Allies: UK, Israel, Japan, RoK, Canada
Strained: Iran, Syria, Mali, Santo Domingo, Pakistan
At War:
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zzLyly
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Hmm... Maybe I'll be Palestine...
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J.B. Hemlock
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I could recommend a bunch of books to get you in the proper mindset... ^_^
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zzdaniel
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yes the best book to make sure you get what life is about is anything from Martha Stuart
CURRENTLY GOING A-RAB on Qatari Ass

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Chief of state: President KHALIFA bin Zayid Al-Nuhayyan

Vice President and Prime Minister MUHAMMAD BIN RASHID Al-Maktum

Head of government:MUHAMMAD bin Rashid Al-Maktum

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GDP - real growth rate:7.9%
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zzcrackzilla
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Taiwan, Palestine, and Kosovo are only important when they're making trouble for the nations who claim their territory.

The KMT rule in taiwan, and thus won't be rabblerousing for independence for a little while.

Hamas got an ass kicking recently, and will need time to recover - potentially giving more moderate factions a chance to increase their power. Thus, some quiet there.

Kosovo's been ignored since Slobadan was removed from Serbia.


I think you're all horribly overstating the importance of these regions. When there's no crisis going on, they only really effect their neighbors - and even that isn't always in important ways.
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zzdaniel
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you seem to forget china threatens Taiwan every week.You seem to forget most of Israeli RP depends on Palastine (not hamas)
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State of Qatar UAE Foreign Affairs Gulf News

Chief of state: President KHALIFA bin Zayid Al-Nuhayyan

Vice President and Prime Minister MUHAMMAD BIN RASHID Al-Maktum

Head of government:MUHAMMAD bin Rashid Al-Maktum

GDP:$284 billion
GDP - real growth rate:7.9%
GDP - per capita (PPP): $40,000
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United States [Sel]
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That's not true. Israel has a lot it can do without the Palestinians. It just hasn't been done yet because the bastards are always taking up the spotlight.
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United States [Sel]
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Saudi Arabia [Maikeru
 
,23 May 2009 08.22.29] I agree with pretty much everyone but Sel here. All three are de-facto independent, something we can't overlook just because of Sel's eccentric political feelings on rebelling territories. Like it or not, those countries which lay claims to their land do not govern that land, so there is no reason to let them govern them in-game (by giving the countries IC indirect control via the player).

Inevitably, the player will be looking out for himself. We can't allow people to play territories with different governments which oppose theirain country. That opens the door to abuse of the worst degree, and although we have had some players mature enough not to abuse that power, they are few and far between.

Just because Matt is a shitty player whom you never should have let come back doesn't mean the idea is a failure. He's not playing cause he's an idiot who signs up and then decides 21C is a crap game which isn't worth playing without trying it for even a second. Trust me, he'd be doing the same with any "real" country.

This isn't entirely true. Israel does exercise significant control over the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Saying I shouldn't be allowed to RP them is like saying Iraq shouldn't be allowed to RP Kurds, insurgents, and terrorists and China shouldn't be allowed to play Tibetans. etc...

Palestinian Policy out today. I swear. (Unless my internet dies, in which case I'll hit up the library tomorrow)
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