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North Korea tests another nuke...; ?
Topic Started: May 25 2009, 02:31 AM (1,384 Views)
Greece (TheOne)
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So apparently word is that North Korea has tested another nuke..

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25534130-401,00.html

They've breached a UN Security Council resolution. So, what now?
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Max
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Obama continues doing nothing, UN gets an ulcer, and South Korea dies.
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I watched them strap him into the seat and shut the door. He might of looked a bit nervous about it but that was about all. I really believe that he knew he was going to be in hell in fifteen minutes. I believe that. And I've thought about that a lot. He was not hard to talk to. Called me Sheriff. But I didn't know what to say to him. What do you say to a man that by his own admission he has no soul? Why would you say anything? I've thought about it a good deal.
Cormac McCarthy
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zzskylar
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Austria [Moorington
 
,25 May 2009 09.06.03] Obama's teleprompters continue doing nothing, UN gets an ulcer, and South Korea explodes in a rain of holy nuclear fire.

Edited for accuracy and imagery.
I'm amused easily by childish things.
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By all means, I give my silent approval.
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I watched them strap him into the seat and shut the door. He might of looked a bit nervous about it but that was about all. I really believe that he knew he was going to be in hell in fifteen minutes. I believe that. And I've thought about that a lot. He was not hard to talk to. Called me Sheriff. But I didn't know what to say to him. What do you say to a man that by his own admission he has no soul? Why would you say anything? I've thought about it a good deal.
Cormac McCarthy
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WW3 as it's best!! North Korea will nuke SK and Japan. China will remain neutral. UNSC launches an attack at North Korea. Simply.....end of the world. :ph43r:
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Moorington, what do you want America to do about it?
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I want America to do nothing whatsoever, I enjoy the fact that we use the UN to talk North Korea to death...
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I watched them strap him into the seat and shut the door. He might of looked a bit nervous about it but that was about all. I really believe that he knew he was going to be in hell in fifteen minutes. I believe that. And I've thought about that a lot. He was not hard to talk to. Called me Sheriff. But I didn't know what to say to him. What do you say to a man that by his own admission he has no soul? Why would you say anything? I've thought about it a good deal.
Cormac McCarthy
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zzskylar
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,25 May 2009 09.14.12] WW3 as it's best!! North Korea will nuke SK and Japan. China will remain neutral. UNSC launches an attack at North Korea. Simply.....end of the world. :ph43r:

NO! We are never... EVER... going to invade the North Koreans!
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,25 May 2009 09.10.38]
Austria [Moorington
 
,25 May 2009 09.06.03] Obama's teleprompters continue doing nothing, UN gets an ulcer, and South Korea explodes in a rain of fire fuck ballz.

Edited for accuracy and imagery.

Better edited. North Korea is not ever going to be holy...lol
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zzgoodie
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Austria [Moorington
 
,25 May 2009 09.06.03] Obama continues doing nothing, UN gets an ulcer, and South Korea dies.

That made me laugh. I don't think we're going to do much of anything, other than wag our finger and go "Bad Kimmy! You don't do that! Stop building nukes!"

North Korea has continuously shown it's disregard for UN resolutions and negotiations, as well as lied about their goals and ambitions for their nuclear facilities. It'll only get worse before it gets better, and believe me, at it's worst? We'll have to be marching through Pyongyang.
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United States [Sel]
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Should we be surprised?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090525/ap_on_..._koreas_nuclear
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Shame our North Korea decided on a rocket instead of a nuke test. That would have been freaky. Maybe if he thought of a nuke test.....

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SEOUL, South Korea – North Korea defied world powers and carried out an underground test Monday of a nuclear bomb Russian officials said was comparable to those that obliterated Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The incident drew condemnation from Washington to Beijing and set the communist regime up for a showdown with the United Nations.

The U.N. Security Council was meeting later Monday in New York to discuss what President Barack Obama called Pyongyang's "blatant defiance" of resolutions banning the regime from developing weapons of mass destruction. British Prime Minister Gordon Brown condemned the test as a "danger to the world." Russia's Foreign Ministry called it "a serious blow to international efforts" to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons.

French officials said they would push for new sanctions, and even traditional Pyongyang ally China said it was "resolutely opposed" to the test, which Russian officials estimated yielded a powerful 10- to 20-kiloton blast — enough to flatten a city and far more than North Korea managed in a 2006 atomic test.

Pyongyang's unprecedented defiance raises the stakes in the mounting standoff over its nuclear program.

Last month, Pyongyang launched a rocket despite international calls for restraint, abandoned international nuclear negotiations, restarted its nuclear plants and warned it would carry out the atomic and long-range missile tests.

"We're heading for a full-blown crisis with the North," said Peter Beck, a Korean affairs expert who teaches at American University in Washington.

The rise in tensions comes amid speculation about who will succeed North Korea's authoritarian leader, 67-year-old Kim Jong Il, who is believed to have suffered a stroke last August.

Kim, who inherited the leadership from his father in 1994 and rules the nation of 24 million with an iron fist, has three sons but has not publicly named a successor.

Though desperately poor, North Korea increasingly has turned inward. With last month's controversial rocket launch and Monday's nuclear test, Kim clearly wants to show its people that the nation remains strong, analysts said.

"The fact that North Korea is undertaking this nuclear test amid great economic and political turmoil might be a sign that North Korea is trying to escape from some kind of internal difficulty," former Russian President Mikhail Gorbachev said during a visit to Seoul.

Beck predicted Pyongyang would parade the nuclear test before the North Korean people to drum up support for Kim and his regime.

"Kim Jong Il is trying to demonstrate his virility and that they are a power to be reckoned with," he said.

Monday's atomic test was conducted shortly before 10 a.m. about 50 miles (80 kilometers) northwest of the northern city of Kilju, Russian Defense Ministry spokesman Alexander Drobyshevsky said, speaking on state-run Rossiya television.

Two hours later, Pyongyang's official Korean Central News Agency declared that the regime had "successfully conducted one more underground nuclear test on May 25 as part of measures to bolster its nuclear deterrent for self-defense."

The U.S. Geological Survey registered seismic activity in northeastern North Korea at 9:54 a.m. (0054 GMT), which it initially identified as a 4.7-magnitude earthquake.

North Korea also test-fired three short-range missiles from a nearby launchpad, South Korea's Yonhap news agency reported, citing unnamed sources.

Sources described them as ground-to-air missiles with a range of 80 miles (130 kilometers), the report said. Yonhap cited military officials as saying the launches appeared to be aimed at keeping U.S. and Japanese surveillance planes away from the nuclear test site.

Kilju, in the northeastern province of North Hamgyong, is where North Korea conducted its first nuclear test in October 2006 in a surprise move that drew wide-ranging sanctions from the Security Council.

North Korea boasted that Monday's test was conducted "on a new higher level in terms of its explosive power and technology of its control."

U.S. and French officials have said the 2006 test measured less than a kiloton; 1 kiloton is equal to the force produced by 1,000 tons of TNT. Russia estimated the force of the 2006 blast at 5 to 15 kilotons, far higher than other estimates at the time.

Pyongyang is believed to have enough weaponized plutonium for at least a half-dozen atomic bombs. However, experts say scientists have not yet mastered the miniaturization needed to mount a nuclear device onto a long-range missile.

"They are still at least several years away from being able to deliver a nuclear device on a weapon," Beck said.

North Korea called its April 5 rocket launch a successful bid to put a satellite into space, but the U.S., Japan, South Korea and others accused Pyongyang of using the launch to test its long-range missile technology. The Security Council condemned the launch as a violation of U.N. resolutions.

"I sincerely hope that the Security Council will take necessary corresponding measures," U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon told The Associated Press in Copenhagen on Monday, declining to specify what further moves, or sanctions, he would urge the 15 council members to take.

Jim Walsh, an international security expert at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, said he expected U.N. members to call for sanctions — but dismissed any punishment as "political theater" that would have little effect on a country already subject to numerous sanctions.

Obama might be the only one who can give North Korea what it wants.

Paik Hak-soon of the South Korean security think tank Sejong Institute said North Korea is "putting maximum pressure" on the United States for direct, high-level negotiations resulting in a "grand deal" that would include aid, concessions and a normalization of ties.

North Korea also has custody of two American journalists, Laura Ling and Euna Lee — accused of entering the country illegally and engaging in "hostile acts" — who are set to stand trial in Pyongyang on June 4.

Their case may serve as a face-saving way for the U.S. to send a high-level envoy to Pyongyang for negotiations, Paik said.

"Had it not been for the journalists, it could give an impression of yielding to North Korea's provocation if the U.S. sends a high-level envoy for direct talks with Pyongyang," he said.

South Korean troops are on high alert but there was no sign North Korean soldiers were massing along the heavily fortified border dividing the two nations, according to an official at the Joint Chiefs of Staff headquarters in Seoul. He spoke on condition of anonymity, citing agency policy.

The two Koreas technically remain at war because their three-year conflict ended in a truce, not a peace treaty, in 1953.

But on the streets of Seoul, where many were still mourning the suicide of former President Roh Moo-hyun, there was no palpable sense of fear in the hours after the North Korean nuclear test.

"I see this test as North Korea's marketing strategy. They just seem to be playing games," said Kim Sun-joo, 51, who works at a travel agency. "I wouldn't say that South Korea is completely free of danger, but I don't think we are any more in danger than we were before. People here are used to these kinds of threats."
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I was wondering why everyone ignored my post.

This doesn't go in debate hall. It's not a debate.
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,25 May 2009 09.17.17] I want America to do nothing whatsoever, I enjoy the fact that we use the UN to talk North Korea to death...

Is that not the greatest plan in the history of ever?
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,25 May 2009 09.18.41] -they have no colour!-

ROFL! I love Lewis Black too!
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There's a guy who runs a blog who believes he's come up with the solution to gradually undermine North Korea without actually invading...

Plan B: How to Disarm Kim Jong Il without Bombing Him
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Amzi
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Plan B of his actually sounds like it would be pretty effective. It seems to cut off a lot of the ways DPRK is making money, thus could force them to do anything, even disarm.
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,25 May 2009 23.53.10] Plan B of his actually sounds like it would be pretty effective. It seems to cut off a lot of the ways DPRK is making money, thus could force them to do anything, even disarm.

Indeed. On the other hand it could destabilise things and cause more problems.

That's the paradox of the Pyongyang regime. If you get rid of it, what emerges in its place? Who knows what effects the half century of communist rule has had, and it's different to China or the Soviet Union. Will they go to war with South Korea as a last throw of the dice?
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Amzi
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The exact reason Nazi Germany got away with so much. France and Britain were playing nice with them becuase they were scared of them, or what they would start, or what they could become.

Its like how you are nice to the freaky kid at your school becuase 1) You dont want him to come to school with a gun and 2) If he does, you want to be on his good side

The latter is past the U.S and most other Western nations, so they try 1) alot.

Its a slippery slope
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zzFarrfin
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I think if you started turning up the pressure now, as a response to these tests, you'd have a decent amount of support internationally too.

And remember, every missile/nuclear test costs the regime money... money that it hasn't really got.
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Greece (TheOne)
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,25 May 2009 16.35.53] I was wondering why everyone ignored my post.

This doesn't go in debate hall. It's not a debate.

Ah sorry I posted it in debate hall, didn't think it was IC related.
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India [Amzi
 
,25 May 2009 18.08.23]The exact reason Nazi Germany got away with so much. France and Britain were playing nice with them becuase they were scared of them, or what they would start, or what they could become.

Its like how you are nice to the freaky kid at your school becuase 1) You dont want him to come to school with a gun and 2) If he does, you want to be on his good side

The latter is past the U.S and most other Western nations, so they try 1) alot.

Its a slippery slope

Wow Azmi you are been pleasant to people just so they don't kill you? You must be acting a bit dickish in RL if you have to hold yourself back from bullying someone else just in case they snap and kill you....

That’s generally not what the UK did with Hitler btw. 1) They did it because the government felt Versailles was too harsh and Hitler was reasonable. So they thought, he will get back a few things and then stop. Having hindsight really helps... 2) It bought time for the UK to rearm.

I am not defending Chamberlain however people seem to make it out that he was an irrational idiot. He is very poorly thought of in the UK compared to Churchill however in 1938, the British people had enough of war and he was seen as a hero for getting "Peace in our time." Looking at those times now is far different from the reality then.

France [Farrfin
 
,25 May 2009 18.11.15]And remember, every missile/nuclear test costs the regime money... money that it hasn't really got.

Even less since Kim pulled out of that economic free zones with the South. $100s of millions in revenue gone because of him making a statement… Aside from selling Meth I wonder how North Korea is affording these nukes. Unless we are sending him food bags full of $100 notes….
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United States [Sel]
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France [Farrfin
 
,25 May 2009 17.46.25] There's a guy who runs a blog who believes he's come up with the solution to gradually undermine North Korea without actually invading...

Plan B: How to Disarm Kim Jong Il without Bombing Him

Quote:
 
This same sanction proved devastating when applied to Banco Delta Asia, and when applied to foreign jurisdictions such as Nauru and th e Ukraine
He just lost all my respect.
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,25 May 2009 19.06.39] Aside from selling Meth I wonder how North Korea is affording these nukes. Unless we are sending him food bags full of $100 notes….

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superdollar#North_Korea
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,25 May 2009 18.08.23] The exact reason Nazi Germany got away with so much. France and Britain were playing nice with them becuase they were scared of them, or what they would start, or what they could become.

Huge difference between an authoritarian state and a totalitarian state. Actually scrap that. Huge difference between a near-totalitarian state and North Korea.
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France [Farrfin
 
,25 May 2009 18.02.52] Indeed. On the other hand it could destabilise things and cause more problems.

That's the paradox of the Pyongyang regime. If you get rid of it, what emerges in its place? Who knows what effects the half century of communist rule has had, and it's different to China or the Soviet Union. Will they go to war with South Korea as a last throw of the dice?

My plan is two step. One, get the North to accept defeat. Two, the South slowly reintegrates the North village by village over decades or whatever it takes. Not easy, but the most practical solution in my book.
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India [Amzi
 
,25 May 2009 19.08.23] The exact reason Nazi Germany got away with so much. France and Britain were playing nice with them becuase they were scared of them, or what they would start, or what they could become.

Its like how you are nice to the freaky kid at your school becuase 1) You dont want him to come to school with a gun and 2) If he does, you want to be on his good side

The latter is past the U.S and most other Western nations, so they try 1) alot.

Its a slippery slope

I agree with this in theory, but the difference is that Hitler did not possess weapons that could potentially lead the the entire extinction of the human race, and are actually crazy enough (I think) to use them.

It's a small difference, but I think it changes the situation dramatically.
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,25 May 2009 23.02.56] I agree with this in theory, but the difference is that Hitler did not possess weapons that could potentially lead the the entire extinction of the human race, and are actually crazy enough (I think) to use them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombin...ma_and_Nagasaki
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Apparently they've tested another couple of missiles since the nuke/other missile tests too.

Sadly, though, I agree with Moorington; I don't think much will happen.

This is what the North Koreans do to get attention and concessions, and it usually works. Hence, they'll keep doing it. They basically want to be bribed into stopping these activities (through more aid, through easing sanctions, through removal from the US state sponsors of terrorism list...)
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Greece (TheOne)
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^^Were does the part were they pass things on to Iran and Syria fit in? or is that American propaganda?
If they wanted attention, and all they were doing was launching a few missiles and testing the occasional nuke, sure makes sense.
But trading in the proliferation of wmd is a little more then a cry for attention.

Sadly I don't think North Korea can be stopped, short of causing immense damage to both it and South Korea, with hundreds of thousands if not millions dead and injured.
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United States [Dax
 
,25 May 2009 23.02.56]
India [Amzi
 
,25 May 2009 19.08.23] The exact reason Nazi Germany got away with so much. France and Britain were playing nice with them becuase they were scared of them, or what they would start, or what they could become.

Its like how you are nice to the freaky kid at your school becuase 1) You dont want him to come to school with a gun and 2) If he does, you want to be on his good side

The latter is past the U.S and most other Western nations, so they try 1) alot.

Its a slippery slope

I agree with this in theory, but the difference is that Hitler did not possess weapons that could potentially lead the the entire extinction of the human race, and are actually crazy enough (I think) to use them.

It's a small difference, but I think it changes the situation dramatically.

The United Kingdom and France outnumbered and outgunned the German military. They could have stopped it, and instead they chose to appease the Nazi regime in the hopes that once the Germans were unified, they could all go about their happy way.

Except that Anglo Saxons and the Franks are both Germanic peoples. -_-
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,26 May 2009 12.39.14]
United States [Dax
 
,25 May 2009 23.02.56]
India [Amzi
 
,25 May 2009 19.08.23] The exact reason Nazi Germany got away with so much. France and Britain were playing nice with them becuase they were scared of them, or what they would start, or what they could become.

Its like how you are nice to the freaky kid at your school becuase 1) You dont want him to come to school with a gun and 2) If he does, you want to be on his good side

The latter is past the U.S and most other Western nations, so they try 1) alot.

Its a slippery slope

I agree with this in theory, but the difference is that Hitler did not possess weapons that could potentially lead the the entire extinction of the human race, and are actually crazy enough (I think) to use them.

It's a small difference, but I think it changes the situation dramatically.

The United Kingdom and France outnumbered and outgunned the German military. They could have stopped it, and instead they chose to appease the Nazi regime in the hopes that once the Germans were unified, they could all go about their happy way.

Except that Anglo Saxons and the Franks are both Germanic peoples. -_-

I believe we refuted how this doesn't compare a few posts ago.
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Israel [Sel Appa
 
,26 May 2009 13.30.08]
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,26 May 2009 12.39.14]
United States [Dax
 
,25 May 2009 23.02.56]
India [Amzi
 
,25 May 2009 19.08.23] The exact reason Nazi Germany got away with so much. France and Britain were playing nice with them becuase they were scared of them, or what they would start, or what they could become.

Its like how you are nice to the freaky kid at your school becuase 1) You dont want him to come to school with a gun and 2) If he does, you want to be on his good side

The latter is past the U.S and most other Western nations, so they try 1) alot.

Its a slippery slope

I agree with this in theory, but the difference is that Hitler did not possess weapons that could potentially lead the the entire extinction of the human race, and are actually crazy enough (I think) to use them.

It's a small difference, but I think it changes the situation dramatically.

The United Kingdom and France outnumbered and outgunned the German military. They could have stopped it, and instead they chose to appease the Nazi regime in the hopes that once the Germans were unified, they could all go about their happy way.

Except that Anglo Saxons and the Franks are both Germanic peoples. -_-

I believe we refuted how this doesn't compare a few posts ago.

I was making an observation.
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United States [Sel]
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But the situations don't compare. Hitler and lil Kim are very different. Their governments are very different.

The UK and France did not out gun and outnumber Germany: that was the problem.
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The French alone had more tanks in 1940 than Germany did. They had considerably more towed artillery (lolmaginot). Combined with their regional allies, they had comparable manpower -- and that's with only the BEF, not the British Army. The Germans were very much outnumbered and outgunned. Except in the sky.
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Israel [Sel Appa
 
,25 May 2009 22.09.48]
United States [Recon
 
,25 May 2009 19.06.39] Aside from selling Meth I wonder how North Korea is affording these nukes. Unless we are sending him food bags full of $100 notes….

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superdollar#North_Korea

I know you have a tendency to support the eccentric however unless the US treasury is on its arse. The North Koreans have not been able to generate billions in currency. If the North Koreas only make $300 million in legitimate income, $300 million in selling Meth to Japan. Where is the money coming from?
[align=center]Head of State (President): Moncef Marzouki (Congress for the Republic)
Head of Government (Prime Minister): Hamadi Jebali (Ennahda)
Population: 10.6 Million (2012 est.)
GDP (Real): $44bn (2012 est.)
Organizations: Arab League (AL), Arab Maghreb Union (AMU), African Union (AU), International Criminal Court (ICC), International Monetary Fund (IMF,) Non Aligned Movement (NAM), United Nations (UN) & World Trade Organisation (WTO).
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Recon
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Israel [Sel Appa
 
,26 May 2009 14.05.27] But the situations don't compare. Hitler and lil Kim are very different. Their governments are very different.

The UK and France did not out gun and outnumber Germany: that was the problem.

French belief in keep tanks as infantry support was a problem, add the fact many French tanks didn't even have radio comms. Many of their tanks also were only two man vehicles. Leaving the Commander having no ability to be aware of the situation when he is loading and firing....

Poor tactics and outdated equipment saying that a few tanks did have some success,

“In direct meetings with German tanks the Char B1 usually had the better of it, sometimes spectacularly so as when on 16 May a single tank, Eure, frontally attacked and destroyed thirteen German tanks lying in ambush in Stonne, all of them Panzerkampfwagen III and Panzerkampfwagen IV's, in the course of a few minutes. The tank safely returned despite being hit 140 times.”
[align=center]Head of State (President): Moncef Marzouki (Congress for the Republic)
Head of Government (Prime Minister): Hamadi Jebali (Ennahda)
Population: 10.6 Million (2012 est.)
GDP (Real): $44bn (2012 est.)
Organizations: Arab League (AL), Arab Maghreb Union (AMU), African Union (AU), International Criminal Court (ICC), International Monetary Fund (IMF,) Non Aligned Movement (NAM), United Nations (UN) & World Trade Organisation (WTO).
Strained Relations/War: Saudi Arabia, Libya and Israel /None

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United States [Sel]
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The Creator
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United States [Recon
 
,26 May 2009 15.00.44] I know you have a tendency to support the eccentric however unless the US treasury is on its arse. The North Koreans have not been able to generate billions in currency. If the North Koreas only make $300 million in legitimate income, $300 million in selling Meth to Japan. Where is the money coming from?

They sell their gold reserves also, tourism, trade.
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zzFarrfin
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Israel [Sel Appa
 
,26 May 2009 21.54.07] They sell their gold reserves also, tourism, trade.

Indeed. The North Korean concentration camps are big businesses in a perverse way. The prisoners are... well, slaves, used to mine gold (a vital part of the DPRK's income comes from gold sales) and coal, and they also grow opium poppies (again as part of the drugs trade). These camps are huge, too; tens of square miles each, with hundreds of thousands of prisoners.

The Free Korea blog has some insight into the DPRK's Gulag system. Well worth a read, but it's pretty morbid. Apparently the nuke test (and the 2006 one) happened in an underground tunnel built near one of the camps.

http://freekorea.us/camps/

For those with Google Earth, you can find some satellite photographs of the camps on there too.
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Dax
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Il Duce
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United Kingdom [Goodapollo
 
,26 May 2009 13.39.14]
The United Kingdom and France outnumbered and outgunned the German military. They could have stopped it, and instead they chose to appease the Nazi regime in the hopes that once the Germans were unified, they could all go about their happy way.

Except that Anglo Saxons and the Franks are both Germanic peoples. -_-

You could say the same about North korea and it's enemies now. But again, the difference is that Britain and France invading Germany would not have concluded in nuclear war.

Also, in response to Sel: Yes, we are the only country who has ever used a nuclear weapons in warfare, but there's a main difference between us in 1945 and now: in 1945, we were the only ones that had them, and us nuking Japan did not carry the threat of full-scale nuclear war, as it does if North Korea were to use nukes now. It's an enormously different set of threats.
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United States [Sel]
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Full-scale nuclear war is not necessarily going to happen. I forget what book it is in, but NK is simply pursuing the "mouse that roared" tactic. Meaning that they're building a nuke to get attention, not to actually use it.

The book actually may be called The Mouse That Roared...
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