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Conduct Unbecoming of an Administrator
Topic Started: Jul 27 2009, 04:07 PM (503 Views)
Recon
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The Village Kvetch
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Conduct Unbecoming of an Administrator

Now I have took a look at the obvious connection because of the way Sel worded it. Conduct of military officers.

“A gentleman is understood to have a duty to avoid dishonest acts, displays of indecency, lawlessness, dealing unfairly, indecorum, injustice, or acts of cruelty”

I would suggest that the terms are, to avoid dishonest acts, failing to abide by the terms and conditions of the 21c and InvisionFree (including the ban on racist statements), injustice in Admin decisions. (If you have any suggestions please add them.)

The punishment IMO, should be harder, Admins are the leaders here and should be a example to others not get a lower punishment then a normal player.

Punishments should range from, a warning for minor matters, demotion(stripped of admin powers) and/or a week ban for medium matters and for serious cases as the one we have seen today would be a lifetime ban.

Two minor cases would equal a medium case and so on.

Sel has suggested a two thirds majority, I think that is biased, simply because within small timeframes its hard for many players to post, thus one or two players could hold the rest to ransom. A simply majority is better, both to annul a charge and to convince the admin.

The admin will be allowed to defend himself with a post and players will be able to post the evidence and why the picked punishment is necessary.

Feel free to debate, Sel's solution is too rush through a quick judgement without allowing you to make an informed decision. We the players (not just me), all of us should craft workable rules which keep unprofessional conduct outside of our admin team.

[align=center]Head of State (President): Moncef Marzouki (Congress for the Republic)
Head of Government (Prime Minister): Hamadi Jebali (Ennahda)
Population: 10.6 Million (2012 est.)
GDP (Real): $44bn (2012 est.)
Organizations: Arab League (AL), Arab Maghreb Union (AMU), African Union (AU), International Criminal Court (ICC), International Monetary Fund (IMF,) Non Aligned Movement (NAM), United Nations (UN) & World Trade Organisation (WTO).
Strained Relations/War: Saudi Arabia, Libya and Israel /None

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United States [Sel]
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The Creator
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I chose two thirds because that seemed like a reasonable standard. Most legislatures impeach and convict on two thirds. An actual jury generally requires every member to vote not guilty.
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Schwerpunkt
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In the words of the best general of the late 19th century: erst wägen, dann wagen.

Why is this relevant? Because neither you (ie, Recon) nor Sel seem to have the self control necessary to shut up, step back, and examine the entire situation. Simply put, you'd immediately notice that formulating punishments before formulating what constitutes a violation of the rules (as you have done) is rather pointless. You're out for blood, and he's trying to minimize the collateral damage. So, really, it's time for both of you to sit down.

When it comes to whether admins should be held to a higher standard or not, based on Sel's contention of the point: absolutely. Given Dax's comments to me a few days ago, it's abundantly clear that what flies with players may not fly with admins. If only because I can call Sel a tool and be punished, but Sel can call me a tool and not necessarily be punished. So, yes, Sel: you're held to a higher standard.

To establish the charge of 'conduct unbecoming of an administrator,' a general idea of how an administrator should behave is necessary. An administrator should be fair, honorable, readily available for contact (ie, no 7 month vacations in the Outback), and capable of communicating effectively in the chosen lingua franca of the board (English, obviously). These are simple rules which everyone can agree to: nobody wants a petty e-dictator who refuses to speak with you while handing down authoritarian decrees.

So, what would 'conduct unbecoming of an administrator' be? A catch-all charge appended to a list of grievances, or something very specific? Frankly, a catch-all phrase. It's a charge that the administrator's conduct runs contrary to the expectations of the player base. In essence, it should be roughly comparable to a warning. It is not a punish in unto itself, as that would necessitate an entirely new standard of rules for administrators. Double standards are sometimes a necessary evil, but an entirely new set of rules that pertains to administrators is not necessary.

Ergo, the comment made ("Honestly, I would support the entire annihilation of everyone in Gaza. The Arabs in Judea and Samaria are not even remotely close to the terrorist country of Gaza.") by the accused does not fall under the charge 'Conduct Unbecoming of an Administrator,' but rather the charge 'Conduct Unbecoming of an Administrator' is to be appended to whichever charge the comment made falls to.

The comment itself is blatantly inhumane, morally bankrupt, and, most importantly, not something you would expect an administrator to say. After all, Sel's supposed to be the founder and head administrator -- if he can get away with saying that, well, I've got a bone to grind with more than a few people on this board. But, more than that, it's an offensive statement.

In the past, offensive statements relating to genocide are more or less glossed over or ignored. This is unacceptable. Rather, they are to be punished for what they are -- flagrantly racist statements intended to incite, offend, and dehumanize a specific group of people. And, so, the comments made should be treated as the above. I did not join 21c to socialize with a bunch of people who think genocide is a good idea, or that it's okay if it's targeted at x group and not y. That's the type of nonsensical behavior you'd expect to find from Fascist-lites like the BNP.

Simply put, there is no rhyme or reason to justify this position. You can hide it in 'oh, it's a purely objective' comment all you'd like, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a blatantly racist statement. It may not be specifically motivated by ethnic grounds, but is certainly motivated by nationality. In many ways, it's as bad as the 'push Israel into the sea' nonsense, because it specifically advocates genocide. Maybe in a 139 square mile area, but genocide nonetheless.

Given the severity of the statement, it's prudent to skip the 'warning' part. I suspect that if a new member joined and raved about 'finishing the holocaust' or something, he'd probably be banned on the spot. After all, is that not a clear and immediate threat towards, potentially, other users on this site? I'm typically against censorship of any kind, but this is extreme.

Noting the evidence, a week's suspension seems adequate. However, problems with Sel -- remember who is saying this -- have not been so dramatic as to warrant that kind of heavy-handed, draconian punishment. Given the statements rendered by both parties thus far, I'd say a fair punishment would be a 3 day 'exile,' a formal warning rendered, and mandating a formal retraction of the statement would be an appropriate and effective punishment. It's my belief that, while Sel can be very much the fool and be very much annoying, the gravity of the statement when rendered was not properly judged. Intention counts for a great deal. But demanding a vote before the defendant has had a chance to formally defend himself is hardly just.

I'm also going to say that this 'dur, every1 is p4rt of t3h jury' thing is stupid, trite, and ignorant. A 'jury of peers' for Sel would only rightly include those who are currently staff. In light of manpower shortages (let's be fair: Sel has one 'peer' here), I'd suggest expanding this to include all existing moderators as well as, if necessary, past moderators. My theoretical, ideal jury would be as follows: Dax, CM08, Skylar, JB, and myself, as determined by three fifths vote. I'd include Recon, but let's be fair: as the one who seems the most outraged and indignant, it'd be hypocritical for his vote to count. It's a 60% vs. 66% discussion, so eh.
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zzskylar
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While this comment is revealing of the problems regarding governance of 21c, I believe that this action, in which we lay out specific criteria for an Administrator, is too much and would establish a rather unwelcome precedent wherein we restrict the actions of as few as three persons on this board; as it is, I believe we have too many moderators on this board and, what is more surprising, I believe that we should revert to the way 21c used to be in 2.0, with no Engine Room or Events or any Moderators: we depended on our own ingenuity and, albeit we had no USA, we crafted probably one of the most successful rounds of near-future RPing. Period. With this in mind, I also believe that, after the close of this round, whenever that may be, we seriously need to re-evaluate not only the Constitution of this board but also the Layout of it. /face
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zzcrackzilla
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This all came about because Sel said:

Honestly, I would support the entire annihilation of everyone in Gaza. The Arabs in Judea and Samaria are not even remotely close to the terrorist country of Gaza.


So, I ask this - if I said I wouldn't mind seeing the annihilation of everyone in Israel, would I be banned?

If so, then yes. Sel should be punished. If not, then no. He shouldn't.

Personally, I'm not bothered by it, so long as everyone is held to the same standard. If it's okay to talk about wanting Arabs dead, it's okay to talk about wanting Jews dead, or blacks, asians, religious people, whites, etc. If it's not okay to talk about one, then it's not okay to talk about any.

My vote will be based on the answer to this question.

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United States [Sel]
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I'm not really sure what to say or how to respond because now I am overcensoring myself because I appear to have rushed further ahead than necessary.
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United States [Sel]
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Taiwan [Crackzilla
 
,27 Jul 2009 17.06.06] This all came about because Sel said:

Honestly, I would support the entire annihilation of everyone in Gaza. The Arabs in Judea and Samaria are not even remotely close to the terrorist country of Gaza.


So, I ask this - if I said I wouldn't mind seeing the annihilation of everyone in Israel, would I be banned?

If so, then yes. Sel should be punished. If not, then no. He shouldn't.

Personally, I'm not bothered by it, so long as everyone is held to the same standard. If it's okay to talk about wanting Arabs dead, it's okay to talk about wanting Jews dead, or blacks, asians, religious people, whites, etc. If it's not okay to talk about one, then it's not okay to talk about any.

My vote will be based on the answer to this question.

I probably would not suspend you unless there was a lot of complaints about it.

A better example, though, would be to annihilate every Jew in Judea and Samaria, which is even less inflammatory to me.
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Amzi
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For Recon, this is specifically targeting Sel, but for me and the majority, it is more about the basic administrative conduct. If Recon would not have brought this up and made such a big deal about it, none of this would have ever happened. Some poeple would debate Sel's point and most would completely ignore it, like me.

But now since Recon has made a big deal out of it, the topic has changed from Recon out for Sels blood to 'what is acceptable by administrators and what is not'.

So before we begin handing any punishment out, I think we need to go over the broader spectrum of what is acceptable behavior of admins, and disregard Sel's specific comment until that happens.
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Recon
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The Village Kvetch
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I want to be clear “I am not out for Sels blood.” I have no grudge against Sel. But it was his position + the comments which outraged me. If a new player entered and said the same thing he would have been banned. Yet if Schwer or Dax or CM said a similar thing I would post a complaint, senior players have higher standards.

I am however quite aware of the time constraints involved in such a process that’s why I posted this thread soon after “Sels Jury”, its been my experience if problems drag on for more then one or two days they get lost in the stack of new posts and new problems. Momentum is needed to keep things moving. I am happy not to be on a Jury in this specific incident and a widely agree with what Schwer said. I too feel Admins must be held to higher standards then normal players.

[align=center]Head of State (President): Moncef Marzouki (Congress for the Republic)
Head of Government (Prime Minister): Hamadi Jebali (Ennahda)
Population: 10.6 Million (2012 est.)
GDP (Real): $44bn (2012 est.)
Organizations: Arab League (AL), Arab Maghreb Union (AMU), African Union (AU), International Criminal Court (ICC), International Monetary Fund (IMF,) Non Aligned Movement (NAM), United Nations (UN) & World Trade Organisation (WTO).
Strained Relations/War: Saudi Arabia, Libya and Israel /None

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Dax
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This whole fucking situation is so obnoxious that I don't even know where to start.
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Dax
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Il Duce
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Sel should not be punished. We should do like we do in every other case where something idiotic is said: we delete it, pretend we didn't see it, and move on. All of the people calling for Sel's head are really pushing the envelope here. Nobody is in a position to reprimand Sel; not even I. Sel would have to willingly remove his own admin powers, and then rely on me to give them back after the "suspension", which, of course, presents the very real problem that, should Sel disagree with his "punishment", he's got the power to simply not follow it. You're taking it on faith and it's stupid.

The comment was stupid, it was obscene, and it was numerous other things,. But Sel is not going away as an admin, and all of this has taken a molehill and made the Himalayas. Stop. Now.
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zzcesilia
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Exactly as Dax said.

Yes we all agree that the comment was out of place, even verging on Sel being a racist genocidal maniac, I personally couldn't care less what he said. Just one more messed up thing on this board, not the first, and definitely not the last thing we'll see.

But as Dax said, and we were over this at the restart, we are in no position to reprimand Sel. Short of everyone packing up and leaving, (which won't happen), were stuck with him.

What maybe we should all take away from this is that on this board were all human. Sel, Dax, Schwer, Amzi, JB, Skylar, Me, Zac, (rommel too but were not sure), are all human beings. Were not perfect. Our beliefs may not be perfect to each other, and we are all stubborn as mules. So, yes feelings will be hurt, toes will be stepped on, and someone will take offence to anything. I can say "Canada destroys the USA at everythings LOLZ U SUCK", but that doesn't make it true and im sure more than a few Americans will tell me why im wrong. But the key is maturity. Sometimes it takes guts to sit down and shut up, something we all need to learn.

This entire thing is overblown nonsense.
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Dax
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Il Duce
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Thank you, Cresilia.

The only thing that I disagree with here is that "we're stuck with Sel". Everyone can agree that those with power carry responsibility, and that includes the responsibility to act in a manner which facilitates the good-natured and welcoming atmosphere of this board. Heaven forbid we had a Palestinian player: how would that make them feel, coming from an admin? Enough to stop playing, at the very least. There's people, like Recon, who felt as though they could not be associated with someone who honestly held those views. Did Sel's comment interrupt the boards, with the possibility of creating a very unwelcome atmosphere and contribute to players not wanting to be here? Absolutely. Did Sel act unbecoming of an administrator? Absolutely. I have constantly said that an administrator's primary responsibility is to ensure the long-term survivability of these boards by any means necessary. Did Sel consciously violate that? You bet your ass.

However, if you people believe that he is "not administrator-worthy", then vote on it. If the majority say "yes", I have full faith that Sel should, and ultimately would, step down. Like a vote of no-confidence.

However, as bad as Sel's comment was, all of this drama is even worse. Like, 100X worse for these boards.
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zzdoncampos
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Sorry to interject on somewhat of a tangent but, I love that Cresilia.

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(rommel too but were not sure)
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Zactarn Prime
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Sudan [Cresilia
 
,27 Jul 2009 19.02.19]
What maybe we should all take away from this is that on this board were all human. Sel, Dax, Schwer, Amzi, JB, Skylar, Me, Zac, (rommel too but were not sure), are all human beings.

Someone remembered I exist. That made me feel special. lol, I know that's sad, it's cool
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United States [Sel]
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I have been thinking and I think what we can take from this is that unless something disrupts the gameplay, it should not be suspension or ban-worthy. If something violates the TOU, but does not disrupt gameplay, we should just delete it.

This whole thing was blown out of proportion by myself and Recon, although we both meant well.
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Dax
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Israel [Sel Appa
 
,27 Jul 2009 22.13.54] I have been thinking and I think what we can take from this is that unless something disrupts the gameplay, it should not be suspension or ban-worthy. If something violates the TOU, but does not disrupt gameplay, we should just delete it.

This whole thing was blown out of proportion by myself and Recon, although we both meant well.

I refuse to follow those rules. People will be banned so long as I think that they are disrupting the positive atmosphere on these boards.

People are absolutely right. If anyone else had made that comment, they would be banned right now.
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United States [Sel]
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That is essentially what I said.
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Greece (TheOne)
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I think a big deal is being made about this.

Just remove the offensive part of the post already and move on.

Do we really need to drag this out into some sort of trial?
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Russia (X)
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America should be pushed into the sea. Wait, which sea? Aaaargh!

Quote:
 
Sel should not be punished. We should do like we do in every other case where something idiotic is said: we delete it, pretend we didn't see it, and move on. All of the people calling for Sel's head are really pushing the envelope here. Nobody is in a position to reprimand Sel; not even I. Sel would have to willingly remove his own admin powers, and then rely on me to give them back after the "suspension", which, of course, presents the very real problem that, should Sel disagree with his "punishment", he's got the power to simply not follow it. You're taking it on faith and it's stupid.

The comment was stupid, it was obscene, and it was numerous other things,. But Sel is not going away as an admin, and all of this has taken a molehill and made the Himalayas. Stop. Now.


Agreed.

However, if you do continue to use periods to make your writing broken, like I, I will be forced to lodge a formal complaint. Stop. Now.
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