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Morrocan King Acknowledges Holocaust; Says All Muslims Need to Accept it
Topic Started: Jul 25 2009, 11:51 PM (845 Views)
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Time for a different set of news. Apparently many Muslims in the Arab world and Muslim world are not really aware of the Holocaust. Some deny it happened, but most dont even know it happened. When Palestinians were to sing for Holocaust survivors, the Palestinian leaders went nuts and stopped it. hmm....

Quote:
 
RABAT, Morocco – From the western edge of the Muslim world, the King of Morocco has dared to tackle one of the most inflammatory issues in the Middle East conflict — the Holocaust.

At a time when Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's dismissal of the Holocaust has made the biggest headlines, King Mohammed VI has called the Nazi destruction of the Jews "one of the most tragic chapters of modern history," and has endorsed a Paris-based program aimed at spreading the word among fellow Muslims.

Many in the Islamic world still ignore or know little about the Nazi attempt to annihilate the Jews during World War II. Some disbelieve it outright. Others argue that it was a European crime and imagine it to be the reason Israel exists and the Palestinians are stateless.

The sentiment was starkly illustrated in March after a Palestinian youth orchestra performed for Israeli Holocaust survivors, only to be shut down by angry leaders of the West Bank refugee camp where they live.

"The Holocaust happened, but we are facing a similar massacre by the Jews themselves," a community leader named Adnan Hindi said at the time. "We lost our land and we were forced to flee."

Like other moderate Arab leaders, King Mohammed VI must tread carefully. Islamic fervor is rising in his kingdom, highlighted in 2003 by al-Qaida-inspired attacks in Casablanca on targets that included Jewish sites. Forty-five people died.

The king's acknowledgment of the Holocaust, in a speech read out in his name at a ceremony in Paris in March, appears to further illustrate the radically different paths that countries like Morocco and Iran are taking.

Morocco has long been a quiet pioneer in Arab-Israeli peace efforts, most notably when it served as a secret meeting place for the Israeli and Egyptian officials who set up President Anwar Sadat's groundbreaking journey to Jerusalem in 1977.

Though Moroccan officials say the timing is coincidental, the Holocaust speech came at around the same time that Morocco severed diplomatic relations with Iran, claiming it was infiltrating Shiite Muslim troublemakers into this Sunni nation.

The speech was read out at a ceremony launching the "Aladdin Project," an initiative of the Paris-based Foundation for the Memory of the Shoah (Holocaust) which aims to spread awareness of the genocide among Muslims.

It organizes conferences and has translated key Holocaust writing such as Anne Frank's diary into Arabic and Farsi. The name refers to Aladdin, the young man with the genie in his lamp, whose legend, originally Muslim, became a universally loved tale.

The Holocaust, the king's speech said, is "the universal heritage of mankind."

It was "a very important political act," said Anne-Marie Revcolevschi, director of the Shoah foundation. "This is the first time an Arab head of state takes such a clear stand on the Shoah," she said in a telephone interview.

While the Israeli-Palestinian conflict often aggravates Arab sentiment toward Israel, Morocco has a long history of coexistence between Muslims and Jews.

The recent Israeli military offensive in the Gaza Strip has further inflamed resentment at Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. But Ahmed Hasseni, a Casablanca cab driver, echoes a widely held view that it shouldn't affect relations with Morocco's Jews.

"We're not dumb," he said. "We don't confuse the Israeli army with the Jewish people," he said.

Jews have lived in Morocco for 2,000 years. Their numbers swelled after they were expelled from Spain in 1492, and reached 300,000 before World War II, when yet more fled the German occupation and found refuge in Morocco, then a French colony.

Today they number just 3,000, most having emigrated to France, North America or Israel, but they are free to come back to explore their roots, pray at their ancestors' graves and even settle here.

Simon Levy heads the Jewish Museum in Casablanca, a treasure trove of old Torah scrolls, garments and jewelry illustrating the rich culture of Moroccan Jewry.

"That I still run the only Jewish museum in the Arab world is telling," he said.

Andre Azoulay, a top adviser to the current king, is Jewish and one of six members of the king's council in a monarchy that oversees all major decisions. Considered one of Morocco's most powerful men, he views his country as "a unique case" for the intensity of its Jewish-Muslim relations. "We don't mix up Judaism and the tragedy of the Middle East," he told The Associated Press in an interview.

A founding member of the Aladdin project, Azoulay says part of the program's goal is to show the West that Muslims aren't hostile to Jews, and that Morocco was among countries that resisted Nazi plans to exterminate their Jewish populations. He points to king Mohammed V, the current ruler's grandfather, who is credited with resisting French colonial anti-Semitic policies.

Such actions were rare, but not unique in North Africa during World War II. In Tunisia, the late Khaled Abdelwahhab hid Jews from the Nazis on his farm, and was the first Arab to be nominated as "Righteous Among the Nations," a title bestowed by Yad Vashem, Israel's Holocaust memorial, on those who risked their lives to save Jews in the Holocaust. His case is still under study.

The Aladdin project is only just beginning. Its work has yet to reach schools or bookstores in Morocco, although the Shoah foundation's Revcolevschi said Anne Frank's diary is among Holocaust memoirs available in Arabic and Farsi on the Internet, and is being sold under the counter in Iran.

"People speak of a clash of civilizations, but it's more a clash of ignorance," she said. "We're countering this."

Hakim El Ghissassi, an aide to the senior Islamic Affairs official who delivered Mohammed's speech, said the king is uniquely positioned to promote Islam's dialogue with Judaism, because his titles include "Commander of the believers" — meaning he is the paramount authority for Moroccan Muslims.

"What the king has said on the Holocaust reflects our broader efforts," said El Ghissassi, listing such reforms as courses to reinforce Morocco's tradition of tolerant Islam by familiarizing local imams with Jewish and Christian holy books.

"We want to make sure everybody can differentiate between unfair Israeli policies and respect for Judaism," he said.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090725/ap_on_...slims_holocaust
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Revisionists are but one problem facing the Muslim world. Ultimately, they are an insignificant, trite, and fading problem.

You'll love this article, Sel:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8168975.stm
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,26 Jul 2009 05.19.50] You'll love this article, Sel:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8168975.stm

I personally loved that article.

Anyway, I want to play Morocco next round.
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Now all we need is for Zionists to acknowledge their current genocide of Palestinians. :rolleyes:
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,26 Jul 2009 05.31.25]
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,26 Jul 2009 05.19.50] You'll love this article, Sel:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8168975.stm

I personally loved that article.

Anyway, I want to play Morocco next round.

Then I'll be Spain and we can get some shyt dunnn! :lol:
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,26 Jul 2009 10.08.24] Now all we need is for Zionists to acknowledge their current genocide of Palestinians. :rolleyes:

What genocide? Where are the gangs of armed men rounding up random civilians and shooting them in a row? Where is the systematic killing?

If Israel wanted to commit genocide, it would have levelled Gaza already. There would not be an Arab left in Greater Israel. Yet there are millions.
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,26 Jul 2009 04.19.50] Revisionists are but one problem facing the Muslim world. Ultimately, they are an insignificant, trite, and fading problem.

You'll love this article, Sel:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8168975.stm

Wow thanks.
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,26 Jul 2009 15.12.11]
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,26 Jul 2009 10.08.24] Now all we need is for Zionists to acknowledge their current genocide of Palestinians.  :rolleyes:

What genocide? Where are the gangs of armed men rounding up random civilians and shooting them in a row? Where is the systematic killing?

If Israel wanted to commit genocide, it would have levelled Gaza already. There would not be an Arab left in Greater Israel. Yet there are millions.

Nobody accused them of being good at it! :ph43r:
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Well of course if they killed every single person then that would be impossible because a country would step in and whoop ass. Instead they do it in moderation.

Yehida massacre: 13 December 1947
Khisas massacre: 18 December 1947
Qazaza massacre: 19 December 1947
Al-Sheikh Village: 1 January 1948
Naser Al-Din massacre: 13-14 April 1948
Abu Shusha massacre: 14 May 1948
Beit Daras massacre: 21 May 1948
Tantura massacre: May 22-23, 1948
Dahmash Mosque massacre: 11 July 1948
http://www.iol.ie/~afifi/BICNews/Har...arbinger18.htm
Dawayma massacre: 29 October 1948
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Hebron/...a/Story670.html
Sharafat massacre: 7 Febraury 1951
Kibya massacre: 14 October 1953: 9:30 pm
Kafr Qasm massacre :29 October 1956
AL-SAMMOU' MASSACRE :13 November 1966
THE SABRA AND SHATILA MASSACRE :15-18 September 1982
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/1779713.stm
OYON QARA MASSACRE RISHON LEZION: 20 May 1990)
THE IBRAHIMI MOSQUE MASSACRE :25 February 1994
THE JABALIA MASSACRE: 28 March 1994
ERETZ CHECKPOINT MASSACRE : 17 July 1994
Jenin massacre: Thursday, 18 April, 2002
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/1937048.stm
Gaza beach blast: June 9, 2006
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_beach_blast


Resources-
http://www.radioislam.org/islam/english/to...#AL-SAMMOU'
http://www.palestinecampaign.org/archives.asp?list=102

Then recently,
White phospherous used in gaza
deliberate targeting of civillians in gaza 2009

Taken from: http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?do=dis...scussionid=1325
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Kind of falls short of genocide though (even if the boot fits). I'd call what Israel has done ethnically motivated incidents, and what it does now blatant disregard for civilian life. Much like the USSR's policies in Afghanistan.

Not really genocide. At least not on the scale that is usually acknowledged (the smallest really being the killings in Former Yugoslavia). Though the Palestine-lobby does like us to think that.

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Falls short? How bad was these attacks by the Palestinians last February, injured a couple of Israelis maybe killed one or two? Instead they break agreements, walk into Gaza and start slaughtering people left and right.
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,26 Jul 2009 18.34.55] Falls short? How bad was these attacks by the Palestinians last February, injured a couple of Israelis maybe killed one or two? Instead they break agreements, walk into Gaza and start slaughtering people left and right.

The Arabs slaughtered people all over Africa for centuries and still do it in places like Sudan and Somalia.

Oh, i guess that doesn't count, right?
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^ So vengence is okay? Just playing Devil's Advotcate, I totally get what you are saying.

What Israel is doing is certainly not a genocide. It is violent, and most likely ethically motivated, but it does not fit the criteria (Specifically size and occurance) of genocide.
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,26 Jul 2009 18.41.50] ^ So vengence is okay?

Well, to be fair, Israel isn't exactly slaughtering Palestinians because Arabs commit genocide in Africa, so vengeance wouldn't be the appropriate term. What they are doing is self-defense against militant groups who attack them and then hide among civilians.
Sure, doesn't change the fact that they're being incredibly irresponsible and barbaric about it, but it's not like they're just slaughtering people on principle.

My comment about Arabs in Africa was meant to illustrate how people cry and cry about Israelis killing Arabs, and yet no one seems to notice that it's almost like karma :-P

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I don't cry about the African genocides because Palestine is Palestinian, not Israeli. So you said that what Israel is doing is self defense against militant groups who hide as civilians, so that means it would be okay for us to slaughter everyone in Afghanistan or Iraq? Suddenly masses of children and women and even men are suddenly terrorists? Israel is trying to kill Palestinians and assimilate the others. I'm not sure how it went, but if I remember, a law was being proposed making it illegal to speak ill of Israel if you're in the country.
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You make it sound like Israel is slaughtering EVERYONE in Palestine and they do not discriminate between civillians and terrorists at all, which is untrue.
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Quote:
 
I don't cry about the African genocides because Palestine is Palestinian, not Israeli.


So, essentially, you're being hypocritical. I see.

Quote:
 
So you said that what Israel is doing is self defense against militant groups who hide as civilians, so that means it would be okay for us to slaughter everyone in Afghanistan or Iraq? Suddenly masses of children and women and even men are suddenly terrorists?


I did mention that Israel was being completely irresponsible and inhumane about it. You're preaching to the choir here. But that doesn't mean that they're committing genocide.

Quote:
 
Israel is trying to kill Palestinians and assimilate the others.


I'm against the concept of Israel on principle, and even I don't think that's true.

Quote:
 
I'm not sure how it went, but if I remember, a law was being proposed making it illegal to speak ill of Israel if you're in the country.


Many nations have similar laws. Turkey, for example. I don't see how this correlates or makes Israel especially bad.
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,26 Jul 2009 18.41.27] I don't cry about the African genocides because Palestine is Palestinian, not Israeli. So you said that what Israel is doing is self defense against militant groups who hide as civilians, so that means it would be okay for us to slaughter everyone in Afghanistan or Iraq? Suddenly masses of children and women and even men are suddenly terrorists? Israel is trying to kill Palestinians and assimilate the others. I'm not sure how it went, but if I remember, a law was being proposed making it illegal to speak ill of Israel if you're in the country.

"Palestinian" women and children regularly strap on bombs and take up arms against Israel. Iraqis and Afghanis rarely so; it's almost always men. Children regularly run weapons from Egypt to Gaza for Hamas.

Honestly, I would support the entire annihilation of everyone in Gaza. The Arabs in Judea and Samaria are not even remotely close to the terrorist country of Gaza.

Finally, there is no such thing as a Palestinian. The Arabs claiming to be Palestinian are in fact Jordanian, Egyptian, and Syrian. Yasser Arafat was an Egyptian. In fact, Jordan is the "Palestinian" state.

That said, Israel has never committed genocide. There has never been a massive wholesale slaughter of Arabs. If you call some massacres genocide, then America committed genocide against Vietnamese at My Lai.

Israel did not just burst into Gaza and kill people left and right. If they did, casualties would be in the hundreds of thousands.
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"then America committed genocide against Vietnamese at My Lai."

I agree that the US does kill a lot of people, I'd be willing even to show a huge chart sheet on how many they've killed (though the sheet is incomplete).

"Israel did not just burst into Gaza and kill people left and right. If they did, casualties would be in the hundreds of thousands."

Well they didn't exactly ask for permission. They walked in, guns blazing and killed hundreds.
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Amzi
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They do not need permission because of two reasons. West Bank the technically under Irasaeli jurisdiction and THEY WERE LAUNCHING MISSILES AT CIVILLIANS.
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Compare the Israeli deaths compared to Palestinian deaths, soldiers walking in there and killing civilians is not cool and is not acceptable in war. I doubt the Israeli soldiers even got court martialed.
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,26 Jul 2009 19.26.43] "then America committed genocide against Vietnamese at My Lai."

I agree that the US does kill a lot of people, I'd be willing even to show a huge chart sheet on how many they've killed (though the sheet is incomplete).

Question avoidance. Is it genocide or not?

Quote:
 
"Israel did not just burst into Gaza and kill people left and right. If they did, casualties would be in the hundreds of thousands."

Well they didn't exactly ask for permission. They walked in, guns blazing and killed hundreds.

Who are they going to ask?

"Hamas, can we come in and arrest you?"
"Sure, no problem. We'll even handcuff ourselves for you."
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,26 Jul 2009 19.40.57] Compare the Israeli deaths compared to Palestinian deaths, soldiers walking in there and killing civilians is not cool and is not acceptable in war. I doubt the Israeli soldiers even got court martialed.

Israel warns its civilians and provides bomb shelters.
Hamas blocks the exits.
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I wouldn’t get your hopes up. This is Hezbollah. Anyone want to try and defend this picture?

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I have a lot of sympathy for Palestinian’s especially with reports of Israel war crimes in Gaza recently, I also respect that most Israelis just want to live in peace however the picture above which looks extremely similar to a historical picture makes me wonder how anyone could ever defend someone using the Holocaust……


Edit: Now I read this thread thinking it was just another debate however this post really jumped out at me.

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,26 Jul 2009 19.03.48]Honestly, I would support the entire annihilation of everyone in Gaza. The Arabs in Judea and Samaria are not even remotely close to the terrorist country of Gaza.


This is not needed and frankly should be a bannable offence. I hope Sel is not suggesting or endorsing the murder of 1.4 million people. To “Support” the “annihilation” of 1.4 million people makes you no better then a SS-Totenkopfverbände officer encouraging people into a gas chamber or conducting experiments. It’s sick.

You may disagree with Hamas as do I and the tactics they and other Palestinian groups use however the murder of 1.4 million people, the vast majority of them been people who just try to get on with their lives and don’t really care about Israel enough to kill themselves is sick.

Hamas, offers thousands of dollars to the families of each suicide bomber it also leans heavily on the family of the bomber during his or her funeral to make pro hamas statements to the press if not they get harassed. Now this is little comfort to someone whose family gets blown up on a bus I know, however it goes someway to explain, why young people and their families can be seen on TV supporting Hamas. Especially with massive unemployment, a large youth population and the kind of education, which makes suicide attacks a honourable thing. [/font]
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,27 Jul 2009 04.57.49] I wouldn’t get your hopes up. This is Hezbollah. Anyone want to try and defend this picture?

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I have a lot of sympathy for Palestinian’s especially with reports of Israel war crimes in Gaza recently, I also respect that most Israelis just want to live in peace however the picture above which looks extremely similar to a historical picture makes me wonder how anyone could ever defend someone using the Holocaust……

I see, they use a Roman Salute, therefore they must be Nazis!

Sorry, but that's crap. They aren't using that salute because they're neo-nazis or anything (that idea is laughable - remember, Hitler killed more than just Jews). It's simply the method they use (in that picture at least) to salute someone or something which is unseen in the photograph. It is likely they were at least somewhat aware of the historical significance, but remember - these are poor Lebanese civilians who joined up to feed their families or because their homes had been bombed by the IDF. They aren't historians; they have a lot better things to worry about.

Yeah, I'll defend Hezbollah. And Hamas, and any other "terrorist" group out there in Lebanon or the Palestinian Territories fighting against Israel (that doesn't, of course, include Al-Qaeda). Israel has shown a massive disregard for the lives of innocent Palestinians and innocent Lebanese, and have exterminated entire villages under the guise of "fighting rocket-launching terrorists" who supposedly use "civilian shields."

That's bullshit. It's been shown throughout multiple conflicts, particularly the most recent two in Lebanon and Gaza, that Israel's response is disproportionate, and that many of the buildings, including schools, mosques, hospitals, a United Nations relief headquarters in Gaza, etc., have absolutely no connection to the supposed rocket launches. Besides, even if they had, it's the IDF. They have much cleaner ways of stopping these rocket launches than bombing entire city blocks.

Like I and others have said before, just look at the damage done. It's evident that once Israel gets going, it doesn't give a flying fuck about civilian casualties (and, in fact, does what it can to cause more.)

Quote:
 
Between 1,166 and 1,417 Palestinians and 13 Israelis were killed.[19] More than 400,000 Gazans were left without running water, 4000 homes were destroyed or badly damaged, leaving tens of thousands of people homeless, and 80 government buildings were hit.[20]


From Wikipedia, with reputable sources.

Is every Israeli really worth 86 innocent Palestinian man, woman, and child? And that's not even getting in to the injuries, the homes destroyed, and all that good stuff.

On top of military action, Israel denies the innocent people of Gaza even the most basic medical supplies and the food they need through the Gaza Blockade, which has been declared an illegal crime against humanity by the United Nations (more than once, I believe). If that's not collective, ethnic punishment of the worst sort, I don't know what is.

But yeah. The Palestinians are the bad guys. :rolleyes:
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The majority of people who support the Palestinians and denounce Israel do it because it's the 'in thing'.

This is evident by the fact they have no idea of other genocides that occur and have occurred. For example, 1.5 million Armenians, 300,000 Pontian Greeks from the Black Sea coast of Turkey etc etc etc etc..the list can go on and on. Hell, why not mention Saddam gassing the Kurds after the first Gulf War? How about the over 4,000 Kurdish villages that the Turkish army wiped off the face of the earth and the continued oppression of the Kurds in Turkey? 40,000 people have died there in Turkish operations against Kurds and PKK attacks on Turkish cities and military.

Do none of these thing's rate a mention by these people?

You see, it's cool to bash Israel.
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Are any of those relevant to this discussion? (Or, besides the Kurdish issue, to current events?)

No. Therefore we do not discuss them here.
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,27 Jul 2009 09.16.58] Are any of those relevant to this discussion? (Or, besides the Kurdish issue, to current events?)

No. Therefore we do not discuss them here.

Actually they are relevant. If you chose to actually be objective and neutral, instead of blindly bashing Israel because you think you are doing some good in this world.

They are relevant because they highlight the bias exhibited against Israel by you and others.

You are supporting what you are supporting for the wrong reasons.
The fact you don't care about other genocides shows this well.

You do not discuss them because you have no interest in them. It is not as cool to bash Turkey and others, as it is to bash Israel.
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Mhm.

So we should take this thread off on an unrelated tangent about genocides which happened almost 100 years ago, just because you say so (and want to get the discussion off of Israel).

And I can't be against the mass murder of innocent civilians because others are against it.

Right.

Try actually defending Israel using facts and statistics. It doesn't work.
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Recon
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Saudi Arabia [Maikeru
 
,27 Jul 2009 09.05.11]
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,27 Jul 2009 04.57.49] I wouldn’t get your hopes up. This is Hezbollah. Anyone want to try and defend this picture?

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I have a lot of sympathy for Palestinian’s especially with reports of Israel war crimes in Gaza recently, I also respect that most Israelis just want to live in peace however the picture above which looks extremely similar to a historical picture makes me wonder how anyone could ever defend someone using the Holocaust……

I see, they use a Roman Salute, therefore they must be Nazis!

Sorry, but that's crap. They aren't using that salute because they're neo-nazis or anything (that idea is laughable - remember, Hitler killed more than just Jews). It's simply the method they use (in that picture at least) to salute someone or something which is unseen in the photograph. It is likely they were at least somewhat aware of the historical significance, but remember - these are poor Lebanese civilians who joined up to feed their families or because their homes had been bombed by the IDF. They aren't historians; they have a lot better things to worry about.

Well sorry Maik, I see a group committed to the destruction of Israel, mimicking the Nazi salute. How could I make such a tenuous connection?

I didn’t say they were Neo Nazi’s, I don’t think Arab people were in Hitlers eyes the “Master Race”. However I think the group certainly knew what they were doing and know the symbolic power of such a salute. I am surprised how furiously you have come down on me about my post and the picture, what exactly should I think when seeing that picture? “Oh the Roman Salute? Well that has no troubled history…”

The Nazi Government did not just kill Jews; they also killed Slavs, Communists, Homosexuals, the roma people and political dissidents. It’s not up for debate that the Holocaust is mainly associated with the roundup and murder of European Jews. The murders of the other groups mentioned are mainly forgotten behind the 6 million figure. I think its unfortunate that others have been forgotten. Gay rights and better treatment of the Roma people may have been more likely if the persecution of the Nazi's was as well covered. In Italy, the government still is going full guns blazing to deal with the Roma people.

I am not claiming that every Lebanese person born into a war torn country got together to watch the History Channel and came up with the idea of the salute, however its leadership is widely travelled and I think personally its no coincidence that, an anti Israel group is using a salute linked to one of the darkest chapters in human history.

That's all I am saying, your reaction is a little surprising.

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Greece (TheOne)
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,27 Jul 2009 09.34.32] Mhm.

So we should take this thread off on an unrelated tangent about genocides which happened almost 100 years ago, just because you say so (and want to get the discussion off of Israel).

And I can't be against the mass murder of innocent civilians because others are against it.

Right.

Try actually defending Israel using facts and statistics. It doesn't work.

I think you need to actually start thinking objectively and from a neutral point of view, instead being all emotional about it.

I'm not trying to deflect attention away from Israel.
I'm not even trying to defend what Israel has and/or is doing.

I'm pointing out the obvious bias of some if not most of those who bash Israel. And dare I say those of you who are actually openly supporting Hamas in this thread one way or another, fit into that group.


If I actually wanted to defend Israel with facts and statistics I could do so and do so convincingly. And I wouldn't need to rely on appealing to peoples emotions about poor Israeli victims of Palestinian rockets either, ie basically what 80% of the pro-Palestinian arguments are based on, appealing to peoples emotions.

I can see both sides of the situation clearly.

Like I said, you need to start thinking more objectively.


And as Recon mentioned, what about the other's who were killed?
20 million Russians died.
10% of the Greek population was lost.
Hundreds of thousands of Serbs were killed by Croatian Nazi collaborators.

I've yet to see any pro-Palestinian supporter make any mention of these and many others yet.

Which once again, just goes to prove it has nothing to do with being against the violence and killing, but more about to do with the popular thing which is bashing Israel.

There isn't even any outcry against the violence used by Palestinians against Israelis. Or even Palestinian on Palestinian violence.

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zzBugs
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Well of course trying to defend Israel with facts and statistics would be "impossible" to an extent. Because Israel is supported by nations that actually have a better capability than Israel's neighbors. Iran can develop long range rockets. Syria can buy Russian anti-air systems. And Hamas can buy cheap Katyusha rockets, or probably make them themselves. But are any of those nations backed by a nation, such as the US, or even Russia or China? No.

Thus, my point would be that of COURSE Israel replied with a "disproportionate" response. Israel is just too big a kid on the block. And pending your interpretation, he's either the bully or just doesn't know his own strength. Especially in comparison with the older methods of war that are used against Israel.

Do not even attempt to throw out the rocket attacks themselves. The United States would reply in kind if the DPRK actually landed a rocket on Hawaii, regardless of who or how many it killed. Russia invaded Georgia on much the same premises. Any form of attack is clearly an attack on national sovereignty.

So statistically, Israel's capability for waging war and killing other humans is far greater than these two bit organizations that aren't exactly working the proper way on acquiring a free Palestine. They have their land. The United States didn't attack the mainland of Britain to acquire its status as a nation. Hell, India didn't even need to wage a war to achieve its aims.

Might I remind you, that the start of aggression was the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. Israel was never the first to go for the jugular of war. The Zionists sought a place that they could secure for themselves, after the atrocities of World War II. A two state solution was suggested even then. But someone decided to take the imperialism thing a little too far. And for over 6 decades since, there has been fighting for a sliver of land the size of Rhode Island and Connecticut.
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While the individuals likely are unaware of the connotation of that salute, they are clearly being led by someone who knows the connotation and deliberately chose that method of saluting in order to inflame the emotions of Jews.

You can not dismiss the clear and indisputable fact that Hamas regularly does use human shields. They fire near schools, hospitals, apartments. Can you blame them? It is a brilliant tactic to do so. The civilian center will be bombed and they will get more sympathy and recruits. That does not eliminate the fact that they used human shields.

They regularly round up and kill the people they "protect" and blame it on Israel. They prevent civilians from escaping or say there actually is no danger.

Israel made a few errors in the Gaza War, but the vast majority of deaths and injuries are on Hamas.

Also, note how Palestinians are all added up together regardless of if they were firing at IDF, while Israeli casualties are separated in news sources.
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Schwerpunkt
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LastSwastika (10:28:32 PM): http://d.yimg.com/ca.yimg.com/p/090610/afp...4597-5-0jpg.jpg
NicolaiG1nofev (10:29:11 PM): "To be less offensive, my hand is cocked 90 degrees instead of flat. Therefore, I am not a Nazi."


Er....

The Israelis used the Kar 98k, with the emblem of the Third Reich still etched into it (presumably filed out when they got it, but...) for thirty years. I seriously doubt that's going to rile them up. If they can stomach using the same gun that shot their people, well...
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Russia (X)
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Israel's armored vehicles in it's early days were often also of Nazi German origin.

Those pictures of IDF troops in Stug IIIs are so ironic. Israeli troops riding around in vehicles used to defend genocide against their own people.

You would've thought the world powers would've shown a little consideration when they decided to dump a shit ton of surplus on Israel.
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zzBugs
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Maybe Israel WANTED it either: 1. If it got destroyed, it wasn't such a big deal and probably a symbol of joy. 2. For the Israeli soldier who had to use it, it made him mad. He wanted to go GI Joe and whoop some ass.
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lol. Good points.

*cue image of IDF soldiers throwing down their German-made rifles, setting fire to their own tanks and madly performing super-Kung Fu against Arab soldiers*
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The weapons were not used for the Holocaust nor to defend it. They were used to defend/expand the Third Reich.

Also, they
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Russia (X)
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Third Reich not related to the Holocaust, Sel?

We've no way of knowing that those Kar 98s didn't shoot people in the Warsaw ghetto or whatever.

Even then, it's the same symbolism as a fascist salute or a swastika on a red flag.

It symbolizes the darkest chapter in human history, and the prime antagonist of that era.
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