
| Welcome to 21c. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
- Pages:
- 1
- 2
| why buy military equipment if no wars? | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 7 2009, 04:54 PM (1,024 Views) | |
| zzHombre | Aug 7 2009, 04:54 PM Post #1 |
![]()
Senior Sergeant
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
just wondering why do players buy stuff when theres no real fighting going on. seems like everyone wants peace so why isnt there more focus on disbanding weapons than getting more weapons? |
|
Important Organizations: Bolivarian Alliance, Rio Group, Andean Community, ALADI, USAN, MERCOSUR, OAS Leader: Evo Morales Ayma | |
![]() |
|
| Max | Aug 7 2009, 05:04 PM Post #2 |
![]()
Senior Warrant Officer
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
If you want peace, prepare for war. As the saying goes.
|
[align=center] [/align]I watched them strap him into the seat and shut the door. He might of looked a bit nervous about it but that was about all. I really believe that he knew he was going to be in hell in fifteen minutes. I believe that. And I've thought about that a lot. He was not hard to talk to. Called me Sheriff. But I didn't know what to say to him. What do you say to a man that by his own admission he has no soul? Why would you say anything? I've thought about it a good deal. Cormac McCarthy | |
![]() |
|
| zzJJ | Aug 7 2009, 05:45 PM Post #3 |
![]()
Senior Warrant Officer
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Cause it's fun to have war considering it's a game I guess? |
![]() “A dog is not considered a good dog because he is a good barker. A man is not considered a good man because he is a good talker.”-Buddha | |
![]() |
|
| zzmaikeru | Aug 7 2009, 05:46 PM Post #4 |
![]()
Warrant Officer
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
The thing is, people on here don't avoid wars because they want peace. They avoid wars because they're afraid of getting their asses handed to them. |
| |
![]() |
|
| J.B. Hemlock | Aug 7 2009, 05:58 PM Post #5 |
![]()
Lieutenant
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I'd argue that they avoid wars because its unrealistic for everyone to go "Let's have a war! Joy!" I've played in those kind of RPs before, they degenerate pretty quickly. |
![]() Factbook (with important linkies) | |
![]() |
|
| Recon | Aug 7 2009, 05:59 PM Post #6 |
![]()
The Village Kvetch
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Why start a thread every time an idea pops into your head? That’s a question on my mind. If only you could start a single thread or indeed just PM a senior member. We don't need lots of new threads thanks. |
|
[align=center]Head of State (President): Moncef Marzouki (Congress for the Republic) Head of Government (Prime Minister): Hamadi Jebali (Ennahda) Population: 10.6 Million (2012 est.) GDP (Real): $44bn (2012 est.) Organizations: Arab League (AL), Arab Maghreb Union (AMU), African Union (AU), International Criminal Court (ICC), International Monetary Fund (IMF,) Non Aligned Movement (NAM), United Nations (UN) & World Trade Organisation (WTO). Strained Relations/War: Saudi Arabia, Libya and Israel /None [/align]
| |
![]() |
|
| zzHombre | Aug 7 2009, 07:19 PM Post #7 |
![]()
Senior Sergeant
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
oh im just trying to be friendly and get used to the community. |
|
Important Organizations: Bolivarian Alliance, Rio Group, Andean Community, ALADI, USAN, MERCOSUR, OAS Leader: Evo Morales Ayma | |
![]() |
|
| zzHombre | Aug 7 2009, 07:21 PM Post #8 |
![]()
Senior Sergeant
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
maikeru, why lead a country if youre afraid of getting beat down when the chips are down? its like everyone likes having a tea party after theyve been called to sit around the poker table. i mean the thing in whatever africa country was ok but i dont see why anyone would care about leading a country if theres no glory or legacy behind it. |
|
Important Organizations: Bolivarian Alliance, Rio Group, Andean Community, ALADI, USAN, MERCOSUR, OAS Leader: Evo Morales Ayma | |
![]() |
|
| Dax | Aug 7 2009, 07:29 PM Post #9 |
![]()
Il Duce
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Do countries in the world not spend billions of dollars each year on their militaries? Compare that to the number of wars you see in a RL year, and you have your comparison that should give you the insight necessary to come up with a reasonable assumption. |
|
[align=center]"The only problem is, we don’t often actually care about people’s quality of life in 21c." -- JCU We are all citizens of the planet Il Duce, starring as . . . ![]() 21C Best Foreign Affairs RPer 2009, 2011, 2012 Best Overall 2009, 2012 Administrator to end all administrators.[/align] | |
![]() |
|
| zzHombre | Aug 7 2009, 07:34 PM Post #10 |
![]()
Senior Sergeant
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
yea i wonder about that a lot too since it doesnt make sense either. if everyones so defensive why bother competing? just come to an agreement be transparent and no more worries. |
|
Important Organizations: Bolivarian Alliance, Rio Group, Andean Community, ALADI, USAN, MERCOSUR, OAS Leader: Evo Morales Ayma | |
![]() |
|
| Dax | Aug 7 2009, 07:43 PM Post #11 |
![]()
Il Duce
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
It's primarily for deterrence, I would think. Not to mention, countries that domestically produce military hardware get great technological, economic, and scientific benefits from it. |
|
[align=center]"The only problem is, we don’t often actually care about people’s quality of life in 21c." -- JCU We are all citizens of the planet Il Duce, starring as . . . ![]() 21C Best Foreign Affairs RPer 2009, 2011, 2012 Best Overall 2009, 2012 Administrator to end all administrators.[/align] | |
![]() |
|
| zzHombre | Aug 7 2009, 07:58 PM Post #12 |
![]()
Senior Sergeant
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
what would there be to deter though if no tools of aggression existed to begin with? not that militaries should be eliminated altogether here but theres certainly potential for them to be chipped away at. for example consider efforts at nuclear nonproliferation, non lethal containment technologies, and quality over quantity replacement that removes hardware yet diffuses capacity among personnel. increased procurement just seems backwards here to me. research and development should be the priority in order to enhance the transition to the peaceful world model that everyone seems to hold. |
|
Important Organizations: Bolivarian Alliance, Rio Group, Andean Community, ALADI, USAN, MERCOSUR, OAS Leader: Evo Morales Ayma | |
![]() |
|
| Dax | Aug 7 2009, 08:35 PM Post #13 |
![]()
Il Duce
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
What you're talking about is military theory. I'm taking about why players are buying arms on 21c. |
|
[align=center]"The only problem is, we don’t often actually care about people’s quality of life in 21c." -- JCU We are all citizens of the planet Il Duce, starring as . . . ![]() 21C Best Foreign Affairs RPer 2009, 2011, 2012 Best Overall 2009, 2012 Administrator to end all administrators.[/align] | |
![]() |
|
| zzdoncampos | Aug 7 2009, 08:50 PM Post #14 |
|
Lieutenant
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
War is Great. Also, You should be able to answer the question yourself. 21C players are quite unpredictable and are warmongers for the most part (Everyone is at heart.). |
|
I will prepare and some day my chance will come. ~Abraham Lincoln ![]() I was born for a storm and the calm does not suit me. ~Andrew Jackson | |
![]() |
|
| zzHombre | Aug 7 2009, 09:00 PM Post #15 |
![]()
Senior Sergeant
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
haha rommel. dax what is there to deter here? nobody has established an aggressive policy for their countries so whats the worry? also how is procurement more beneficial than r+d? if anything procurement would reduce progress since it requires more resources to maintain equipment. and im unsure where you thought im talking about military theory. in any case you asked me to consider how real life countries behave so now im confused.
|
|
Important Organizations: Bolivarian Alliance, Rio Group, Andean Community, ALADI, USAN, MERCOSUR, OAS Leader: Evo Morales Ayma | |
![]() |
|
| Royis | Aug 7 2009, 09:22 PM Post #16 |
![]()
Senior Warrant Officer
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
*nervously adjusts collar* |
| |
![]() |
|
| zzdoncampos | Aug 7 2009, 09:25 PM Post #17 |
|
Lieutenant
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
No one is going to tell you there plan. So, You can't be too sure as to what someone will do. They might just post random crap for 5 years and then all of a sudden invade you. IE: Me and Israel are getting a long pretty well but, that does not mean I will stop updating my military and leave it be. As a great man once said (Niccolo Machiavelli) "Men have daggers in there smiles." |
|
I will prepare and some day my chance will come. ~Abraham Lincoln ![]() I was born for a storm and the calm does not suit me. ~Andrew Jackson | |
![]() |
|
| zzHombre | Aug 7 2009, 09:27 PM Post #18 |
![]()
Senior Sergeant
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
jockeying for domestic support to invade the falklands doesnt explain why the entire world has to engage in a military buildup. besides thats not even a real war. its a token conflict just to beat drums and make noise. no offense. :-P |
|
Important Organizations: Bolivarian Alliance, Rio Group, Andean Community, ALADI, USAN, MERCOSUR, OAS Leader: Evo Morales Ayma | |
![]() |
|
| zzHombre | Aug 7 2009, 09:28 PM Post #19 |
![]()
Senior Sergeant
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
that was to roy not rommel. |
|
Important Organizations: Bolivarian Alliance, Rio Group, Andean Community, ALADI, USAN, MERCOSUR, OAS Leader: Evo Morales Ayma | |
![]() |
|
| Royis | Aug 7 2009, 09:28 PM Post #20 |
![]()
Senior Warrant Officer
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I plan on beating more then drums... *looks at Britian, smiles like wolf* |
| |
![]() |
|
| zzdusty | Aug 7 2009, 09:41 PM Post #21 |
![]()
Warrant Officer
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I would of invaded but those kids ruined my evil Scooby-Doo style plan. |
![]() | |
![]() |
|
| zzHombre | Aug 7 2009, 09:42 PM Post #22 |
![]()
Senior Sergeant
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
rommel the middle east is a bit of an outlier if there ever was one due to the precarious situation at hand. africa would be another due to poverty and chaos that prevents r+d from being effective. anyway its too weird to see procurement being the dominant focus since militaries engage in low level maintenance on a regular basis. instead the primary focus should be on research, training, logistics, synchronization, and that sort of stuff. also you guys have a tight practicality (realism) profile from what ive read for the past couple months. i dont think a complete and sudden policy switch from friends to enemies would go easily without demands for a lot of civil upsetedness. |
|
Important Organizations: Bolivarian Alliance, Rio Group, Andean Community, ALADI, USAN, MERCOSUR, OAS Leader: Evo Morales Ayma | |
![]() |
|
| Royis | Aug 7 2009, 09:53 PM Post #23 |
![]()
Senior Warrant Officer
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
HombreAmigo, your asking really difficult questions to answer. |
| |
![]() |
|
| zzHombre | Aug 7 2009, 09:58 PM Post #24 |
![]()
Senior Sergeant
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
perhaps thats for the better to show that im competent to take over for bolivia? :-D |
|
Important Organizations: Bolivarian Alliance, Rio Group, Andean Community, ALADI, USAN, MERCOSUR, OAS Leader: Evo Morales Ayma | |
![]() |
|
| zzdoncampos | Aug 7 2009, 10:01 PM Post #25 |
|
Lieutenant
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
She is a warmonger dont pay attention to her! ![]() Personally, I'd rather be the guy with equal gear and not use it then crap gear and be attacked but, If you want to have your shitty military, I'll play next to you next round then. :ph43r: :ph43r: |
|
I will prepare and some day my chance will come. ~Abraham Lincoln ![]() I was born for a storm and the calm does not suit me. ~Andrew Jackson | |
![]() |
|
| zzHombre | Aug 7 2009, 10:06 PM Post #26 |
![]()
Senior Sergeant
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
eh... well my goal was to convince people to engage in disarmament agreements, but im ok with playing war too. :-) |
|
Important Organizations: Bolivarian Alliance, Rio Group, Andean Community, ALADI, USAN, MERCOSUR, OAS Leader: Evo Morales Ayma | |
![]() |
|
| zzdoncampos | Aug 7 2009, 10:07 PM Post #27 |
|
Lieutenant
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Once you get to know me. You will see that I am not big into peace. |
|
I will prepare and some day my chance will come. ~Abraham Lincoln ![]() I was born for a storm and the calm does not suit me. ~Andrew Jackson | |
![]() |
|
| Royis | Aug 7 2009, 10:08 PM Post #28 |
![]()
Senior Warrant Officer
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
*Declares war on world* |
| |
![]() |
|
| zzHombre | Aug 7 2009, 10:16 PM Post #29 |
![]()
Senior Sergeant
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
are mad scientists allowed here? even if it was a domestic story that would be kind of neat. pick the country you want your mad scientist to invade first and continue from there. |
|
Important Organizations: Bolivarian Alliance, Rio Group, Andean Community, ALADI, USAN, MERCOSUR, OAS Leader: Evo Morales Ayma | |
![]() |
|
| zzHombre | Aug 7 2009, 10:20 PM Post #30 |
![]()
Senior Sergeant
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
ok rommel. what would be a good pair then? |
|
Important Organizations: Bolivarian Alliance, Rio Group, Andean Community, ALADI, USAN, MERCOSUR, OAS Leader: Evo Morales Ayma | |
![]() |
|
| zzdoncampos | Aug 7 2009, 10:39 PM Post #31 |
|
Lieutenant
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Sorry, but I do not know what you mean. lol IDK about Mad Scientists. |
|
I will prepare and some day my chance will come. ~Abraham Lincoln ![]() I was born for a storm and the calm does not suit me. ~Andrew Jackson | |
![]() |
|
| zzHombre | Aug 7 2009, 10:48 PM Post #32 |
![]()
Senior Sergeant
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
i mean what would be a good couple of countries to play such as the u.s. and china? u said u wanted to be the modernized country so you could be the u.s. in the aforementioned example. |
|
Important Organizations: Bolivarian Alliance, Rio Group, Andean Community, ALADI, USAN, MERCOSUR, OAS Leader: Evo Morales Ayma | |
![]() |
|
| zzHombre | Aug 7 2009, 10:49 PM Post #33 |
![]()
Senior Sergeant
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
oh the scientist thing was a response to roy cuz thats what mad scientists do - declare war on the world. |
|
Important Organizations: Bolivarian Alliance, Rio Group, Andean Community, ALADI, USAN, MERCOSUR, OAS Leader: Evo Morales Ayma | |
![]() |
|
| Senders | Aug 8 2009, 02:05 AM Post #34 |
|
Warrant Officer
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Obviously you've missed that clusterpuck in Asia. . .
Because waiting a good 10+ years to develop something, rather then just buying something newer at the time is just not good for an aging force... especially when you have dereletic equipment aging by the day. Most of 21c's weapons development is made on a rushed schedule because we want to see them fired up before the round is over. I mean in the real world, weapons development for major hardware can take up to a decade and maybe even two if there are delays. The perfect exampple is to follow up on the developement on the V-22. But of course, this is 21c, where things always end up perfect on the first try. And as to why nations have militaries inthe first place, their used for multiple things other than just shooting at people. Rapid response and assisting in natural disasters, North Korea, and multinational missions (such as the one against Piracy, reconstruction of Afghanistan). |
![]() |
|
| Greece (TheOne) | Aug 8 2009, 04:53 AM Post #35 |
![]() ![]()
|
You have a military for defence. Just because there is no war now, does not mean there will be no war in the years ahead. It takes years to get military equipment built, trialed, crews trained and schooled on the use of said equipemt and finally into service. You are preparing for the possibility of war. Mankind's history is full of war. It would be senseless to not have a military of some kind, considering mankind's history. Quite a few people here are actually developing their own weapons, or investing in joint projects with other countries. This creates jobs. It creates a skilled core of people in a country. It drives the economy. The military industrial complex is worth tens of billions if not hundreds. It is also about economic and political interests. The United States for example as the worlds only super power, would not be able to stay number one for long if it did not have the military capabilities it does. Specifically it's aircraft carrier battle groups. Power projection. Middle powers are investing in amphibious assault ships. Great for power projection in their immediate region, and also great for allied operations further a field. Having said that, nobody is forcing anyone to keep a military. If you pick a nation, you are free to disband it's military and sell off the equipment. Don't complain though when someone decides your nation is a walk over and walks right in and takes over. Just because there haven't been a great deal of wars here so far, doesn't mean there isn't a reason to buy military equipment. Military & Defence are also part of nation rp. You rp a government, elections, diplomatic relations with other countries, well, military fits in to all that too. Greece as an example, a lot of the stuff I bought here, were real world procurements that were happening and are going to happen. I've gone a bit further. The reason I'm going ahead with more stuff, is because of the tensions with Turkey. How do I know someone wont join in a month and play Turkey, and play an aggressive Turkey that is at least as aggressive as the real world Turkey? |
![]() |
|
| Dax | Aug 8 2009, 05:46 AM Post #36 |
![]()
Il Duce
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Not really, because you've still yet to make a claim. |
|
[align=center]"The only problem is, we don’t often actually care about people’s quality of life in 21c." -- JCU We are all citizens of the planet Il Duce, starring as . . . ![]() 21C Best Foreign Affairs RPer 2009, 2011, 2012 Best Overall 2009, 2012 Administrator to end all administrators.[/align] | |
![]() |
|
| zzHombre | Aug 8 2009, 10:16 AM Post #37 |
![]()
Senior Sergeant
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
thats not true. i made the claim for panama and as long as the player playing as bolivia has the seat making a claim would be pointless. |
|
Important Organizations: Bolivarian Alliance, Rio Group, Andean Community, ALADI, USAN, MERCOSUR, OAS Leader: Evo Morales Ayma | |
![]() |
|
| zzHombre | Aug 8 2009, 11:53 AM Post #38 |
![]()
Senior Sergeant
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
senders i saw what happened in asia and that's a great example of how military force can be useful. most players though don't have that sort of aggressive style. it also doesn't explain where the supply of weapons is coming from since there's very little incentive for sales. minor disbandments dont deserve attention since theyre part of regular modernization operations and major sales shouldnt be taking place unless theres a covert policy at hand. i mean when i look at the world bank area and see one thread i dont understand why sales matter for the sake of finances. clearly money isnt the issue so why sell weapons according to the profit motive? moving on the war between india and pakistan confused me. not only did india agree to cooperate against terrorists but pakistan also has a far weaker and disorganized force. in contrast india in the past has always been the aggressor and has always successfully overwhelmed pakistani forces. it just seemed that the war was a battle of micromanagement wits with the player throwing out more fluff winning. also why would china's relationship worsen after pakistan just invaded india? the policy seems bipolar at best of aggression and reconciliation with the encouragement of mutual infrastructure development. similarly the invasion of mongolia seemed silly since there really isnt much there and it would just become another fruitless quagmire like tibet. combined with how capitalism has been crushed there should be an abundance of civil discontent which china in real life has relaxed rather than tightened bureaucratic protocols to deal with. this is with due cause as well since chinese economic development is a result of opening opportunities for individuals rather than clamping down via command economics. nevermind that a command policy would completely crash china's ability to engage in international trade and finance. and why would japanese-korean relations be souring so quickly after a couple of slip ups? sure there has been token tension in the past about token activities, but south korea and japan have worked their ways around japanese oppression due to cultural and technological exchange as well as generational forgiveness. the two countries have bigger problems to worry about and for this to happen without third party manipulation makes me raise a brow as to whether this happened because of anything else besides immaturity. also article 9's revocation gets rescinded because of an american offer yet south korea still overlooks north korea's and china's blatant displays of militarism? america has historically had an extremely successful role in mending japanese-korean relations so something's missing here. |
|
Important Organizations: Bolivarian Alliance, Rio Group, Andean Community, ALADI, USAN, MERCOSUR, OAS Leader: Evo Morales Ayma | |
![]() |
|
| zzHombre | Aug 8 2009, 12:00 PM Post #39 |
![]()
Senior Sergeant
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
the one, im not asking for complete military disbandments and from what ive seen so far regarding authorization of military aggression it doesnt seem that players have much to worry about in that respect. if an aggressive turkish player did arrive soon (which begs the question about why your central focus is on a vague possibility among others) he would be required to spend an extensive amount of time justifying his actions. also he would have to show how he isnt contradicting his national interests with regards to nato and the EU. your position on the military industrial complex is also lopsided to technologically developed countries. most countries dont have the capability to maintain and manufacture their own equipment independently. this is why im suggesting that alternatives to direct procurement would be better off. procurement just increases the burden whereas research, training, etc increase support and progress. |
|
Important Organizations: Bolivarian Alliance, Rio Group, Andean Community, ALADI, USAN, MERCOSUR, OAS Leader: Evo Morales Ayma | |
![]() |
|
| Schwerpunkt | Aug 8 2009, 01:15 PM Post #40 |
|
Dalek Caan
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
You seem to be under the impression that the military-industrial complex is not a tool of national diplomacy. You're wrong. Rheinmetall didn't buy Denel Munitions because it's a sound business move (well, it was, but Rheinmetall would've bought something in Europe if that was the sole case), but because owning Denel Munitions gives it strategic clout. It has nothing to do with South Africa, which won't see any change except decreased profit margins, and everything to do with India. |
![]() |
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · Mess Hall · Next Topic » |
- Pages:
- 1
- 2






![]](http://z1.ifrm.com/static/1/pip_r.png)




[/align]





[/align]









9:27 AM Jul 11