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| Is Belief Enough? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 20 2008, 04:45 PM (204 Views) | |
| huggy | Apr 20 2008, 04:45 PM Post #1 |
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help yourself to my msn, it'll be nice talkin to new people
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ok, so alot of the time, we, as Christians would 'advertise' Christianity as a 'faith only' religion, (which is used to distinguish between our religion and others).. but are we really only faith based.. because we say about 'turning from our old ways', well a total contradiction of (the above)... could you agree that if someone believes in God (ie has faith in God) that they do not have to change their ways, and will still be accepted into heaven? which i would think you would all agree is wrong... so i cannot see our religion as being based on faith only... also there are certain ideas that people believe that must have to be done eg baptism (which i don't believe makes any difference to wether God accepts us or not, the only reason i can see baptism as a positive idea is when the person being baptised choose it themselves, and thus it is only an outward sign that yuo have been cleansed of your sins [different topic.. i know :P]) but you see my point... also to quote some scripture... (sorry i don't actually have the verse/book etc[however i think it is James]) 'Faith without action, is worthless' ... ooppss :P... i'll let someone spot my mistake.... but i can still say that believing is not enough.... |
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| Naomi | Apr 21 2008, 11:16 AM Post #2 |
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Nemo
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James 22:11 I think 'just as the body is dead with out breath so to is faith dead without actions!' Its not that when we becaome a Christian that we are forced not to continue with our old ways, but we should want to change them so that people can see that we are different. That would be like a mass murderer saying Ok im going to become a Christian, they do this and then go out and kill someone else, but have the attitude it's ok God will forgive me Im a christian. It's just not right. If we really lovwe God we should want to do what ever we can to please him, and this means trying to change our bad habbits. Its like if you were going out with somone and you really really lved them then if any of your habbits really annoyed them then you would do your best to change that habbit because you love the person. (lot of reallys there sorry, but hope you catch my drift!!) |
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| huggy | Apr 21 2008, 04:23 PM Post #3 |
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help yourself to my msn, it'll be nice talkin to new people
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so really you are agreeing with me, that belief is not enough... faith is a different matter, (o and thanks for the verse =]), but then, faith without action is worthless... thus faith is not enough, as it is worthless if you arn't doing anything... do you see my point? we have to strive to BE Jesus, copy him in everything that he did, (not literally, but his motives morals etc) we will not suceed, but he is the example of how to live, he was worthy of Heaven, and he went to hell.. we arn't worthy of Heaven, but Jesus has saved us. But we cannot just believe, for many people believe, even the devil and all his daemons believe, we have to act out our lives, strive to BE Jesus... i think sometimes people would see a weakness in our faith if we are to say that all we have to do is believe, or have faith... love wasn't the question :P, but yes love does make you want to change, but Love is not faith, Love is not belief, for Love Is God, God is Love, thus if we are to love, we are 'showing God' through us, or rather he shows himself through us... and becoming a Christian IS changing your old ways (ok mabey i read you're post wrong, but are you agreeing with me, or not? :P.. my bad.. but i can read it from two angles... =/) |
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| Guest | Apr 21 2008, 04:38 PM Post #4 |
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Unregistered
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If anyone knows the song 'deeds' (<<click for lyrics) by Sanctus Real then they already know the answer to your question Huggy: 'If you don't have faith you have nothing at all If you don't have deeds your faith will fall They can't be true without each other you can't have one without the other' It's a great song! You need faith and deeds. You can't just believe and don't act like you do
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| jonny2shoes | Apr 21 2008, 04:39 PM Post #5 |
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resident waffler
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oops! That was me :rolleyes:
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| Naomi | Apr 22 2008, 06:20 PM Post #6 |
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Nemo
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Huggy I think that i'm agreeing with you!! But I feel that faith and belief are different. Belief is simply acknowledging that that someone or something exists, where as faith demands action. If you look in Luke's gospel you will see that during some of the miracles Jesus will say to the person 'your faith has made you well' eg the bleeding woman and the paralysed man and the Roman Centurian's servant. However before he says this there has to be an action - the woman touched his hem, the man's friends carried him to the roof made a whole in it and then lowered him in and the centurian told Jesus just to say the word and his servant would be healed. (I'm probably getting totally carried away here if so sorry!!!) Another demention that we could add to this discussion is can people be saved outside the church etc? |
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| jonny2shoes | Apr 23 2008, 07:41 PM Post #7 |
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resident waffler
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If you mean outside the place you go every Sunday then absolutely! If we had to be saved withing the church then I wouldn't be a christian. Besides how on earth could we reach the 'emo'/athiest in our street, that homeless guy with no hope or that close friend who just doesn't go to church? If you want to go biblical about it then ( I know, here I go again :rolleyes:) if you think about it the church building didn't really exist in Acts; the decipels met regulary (more than just every Sunday) and in each other's houses. The church building was really only 'born' as such later on, when the congregations got quite large. If you look in Acts again (I think) you'll find that Peter's first sermon (straight after the holy spirit descended) was in a street in Jerusalem in the middle of the passover celebration, and thousands got saved (3000odd was it?). Or maybe you ment something else?
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| huggy | Apr 23 2008, 09:04 PM Post #8 |
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help yourself to my msn, it'll be nice talkin to new people
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'Huggy I think that i'm agreeing with you!! But I feel that faith and belief are different. Belief is simply acknowledging that that someone or something exists, where as faith demands action.' but why would it then say that 'faith without action is worthless'?... surely it is only faith if it includes action...(or mabey that is what it is saying, that faith is both believing, and acting).. meh i dunno... but that was my mistake earlier.. I circled myself.. so i think we agree.. lol.. just you can read the passage two ways (and both are saying action is important... so we agree that acting is very important) =] lol |
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| Naomi | Apr 24 2008, 09:42 AM Post #9 |
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Nemo
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Yep I think we might just have to leave it that we agree!!! Sorry should have specified that when I said church I ment the people not the building!!! |
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| tgraham | Apr 24 2008, 11:46 AM Post #10 |
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Newbie
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faith and belief have essentially the same meaning. Its often the same greek word in the NT thats translated one or the other, its just the style of our english that changes it. Let me give an important example. This is one of the key passages in the Bible Roman 3.21ff But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. All the red words here are the either the noun or verb of the same greek word πίστις 'pistis'. Perhaps it may be more useful to think of the faith/belief used in different ways...is James's point in ch 2? A The faith that a true disciple of Jesus has, The example given is Abraham B The faith that is dead and worthless, The example given is the Demons Does this help? i'll maybe expand on that later if i get a chance The question i'd want to ask is, why is the 'doing' important? Can i get to heaven without the "change in my ways"? What difference does it make? And what to you mean when you say "believing is not enough?" enough for what? is believing enough for anything? thanks |
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| huggy | Apr 24 2008, 08:44 PM Post #11 |
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help yourself to my msn, it'll be nice talkin to new people
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as we have quoted 'faith without deeds is worthless' and i would also like to add.. that the devil believes in God, he knows God exists, and he knows that he has been defeated... yet obviously they cannot enter heaven so what differs us from them?... if we are only to believe?... the answer is, the way we live our lives, our day to day lives... doing good, helping sharing loving caring... giving up money time and effort to help those in need and most importantly, we share the word of God with others, and give them the chance to be saved... thus belief is not enough.. and i am sick and tired of sitting around 'waiting' for something to happen(which reminds me... another topic is needed) .. i want to be a disciple, follow Gods every word, outreach to as many people as i can, give as many people as possible the good news... 'we can talk the talk, now its time to walk the walk' thats what i was saying in SU today.... like i really want to see us all living our lives for God... i would like to ask you all to ask yourself this question.. Do you think you are doing enough? God gave us his son, he provided us with our life.. so we have to give back more than our life, but that is not possible for us.... thus we must strive to live every second for God..... .. infact a few topics might be started... =] |
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| huggy | Apr 24 2008, 09:03 PM Post #12 |
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help yourself to my msn, it'll be nice talkin to new people
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and i'll give a Biblical definition of faith.....
its long =/'1 Faith means being sure of the things we hope for and knowing that something is real even if we do not see it. 2 Faith is the reason we remember great people who lived in the past. 3 It is by faith we understand that the whole world was made by God's command so what we see was made by something that cannot be seen. 4 It was by faith that Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. God said he was pleased with the gifts Abel offered and called Abel a good man because of his faith. Abel died, but through his faith he is still speaking. 5 It was by faith that Enoch was taken to heaven so he would not die. He could not be found, because God had taken him away. Before he was taken, the Scripture says that he was a man who truly pleased God. 6 Without faith no one can please God. Anyone who comes to God must believe that he is real and that he rewards those who truly want to find him. 7 It was by faith that Noah heard God's warnings about things he could not yet see. He obeyed God and built a large boat to save his family. By his faith, Noah showed that the world was wrong, and he became one of those who are made right with God through faith. 8 It was by faith Abraham obeyed God's call to go to another place God promised to give him. He left his own country, not knowing where he was to go. 9 It was by faith that he lived like a foreigner in the country God promised to give him. He lived in tents with Isaac and Jacob, who had received that same promise from God.10 Abraham was waiting for the city[a] that has real foundations—the city planned and built by God. 11 He was too old to have children, and Sarah could not have children. It was by faith that Abraham was made able to become a father, because he trusted God to do what he had promised. 12 This man was so old he was almost dead, but from him came as many descendants as there are stars in the sky. Like the sand on the seashore, they could not be counted. 13 All these great people died in faith. They did not get the things that God promised his people, but they saw them coming far in the future and were glad. They said they were like visitors and strangers on earth.14 When people say such things, they show they are looking for a country that will be their own.15 If they had been thinking about the country they had left, they could have gone back.16 But they were waiting for a better country—a heavenly country. So God is not ashamed to be called their God, because he has prepared a city for them. 17 It was by faith that Abraham, when God tested him, offered his son Isaac as a sacrifice. God made the promises to Abraham, but Abraham was ready to offer his own son as a sacrifice.18 God had said, "The descendants I promised you will be from Isaac."[c]19 Abraham believed that God could raise the dead, and really, it was as if Abraham got Isaac back from death. 20 It was by faith that Isaac blessed the future of Jacob and Esau.21 It was by faith that Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each one of Joseph's sons. Then he worshiped as he leaned on the top of his walking stick. 22 It was by faith that Joseph, while he was dying, spoke about the Israelites leaving Egypt and gave instructions about what to do with his body. 23 It was by faith that Moses' parents hid him for three months after he was born. They saw that Moses was a beautiful baby, and they were not afraid to disobey the king's order. 24 It was by faith that Moses, when he grew up, refused to be called the son of the king of Egypt's daughter.25 He chose to suffer with God's people instead of enjoying sin for a short time.26 He thought it was better to suffer for the Christ than to have all the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking for God's reward.27 It was by faith that Moses left Egypt and was not afraid of the king's anger. Moses continued strong as if he could see the God that no one can see.28 It was by faith that Moses prepared the Passover and spread the blood on the doors so the one who brings death would not kill the firstborn sons of Israel. 29 It was by faith that the people crossed the Red Sea as if it were dry land. But when the Egyptians tried it, they were drowned. 30 It was by faith that the walls of Jericho fell after the people had marched around them for seven days. 31 It was by faith that Rahab, the prostitute, welcomed the spies and was not killed with those who refused to obey God. 32 Do I need to give more examples? I do not have time to tell you about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and the prophets.33 Through their faith they defeated kingdoms. They did what was right, received God's promises, and shut the mouths of lions.34 They stopped great fires and were saved from being killed with swords. They were weak, and yet were made strong. They were powerful in battle and defeated other armies.35 Women received their dead relatives raised back to life. Others were tortured and refused to accept their freedom so they could be raised from the dead to a better life.36 Some were laughed at and beaten. Others were put in chains and thrown into prison. 37 They were stoned to death, they were cut in half,[d] and they were killed with swords. Some wore the skins of sheep and goats. They were poor, abused, and treated badly. 38 The world was not good enough for them! They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and holes in the earth. 39 All these people are known for their faith, but none of them received what God had promised.40 God planned to give us something better so that they would be made perfect, but only together with us.' alots of reading there... but that is kind of it... (ok now im going to read it :P) |
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| Naomi | Apr 25 2008, 09:01 PM Post #13 |
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Nemo
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to answer tgraham's question doing is important because thats what the Bible tells us to do!!! techniquely belief isnt enough for anything, i believe that the gym is good for you but if I dont act on my belief then its not going to be worth anything because i'm still going to be really unfit! Its the same with out faith without action it is worthless! My synoptic essay in RE is about faith and we kinda have come to the conclusion that our faith can be like a sponge it gets so saturated that the water just leeks out of it, this is what our lives should be like good works so be second nature. |
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| beky777 | May 1 2008, 09:55 PM Post #14 |
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Really addicted to the forum!!!
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i tink the difficulty arises due to are modern english understanding of the words belief and faith. Belief is often seen as a more diluted form of faith...faith is the more religious terminology. We talk about saving faith but not saving belief. nyhu....Biblical the words are essentially the same (i wish we cud all learn Greek and Hebrew...it wud vastly improve are understanding of the Scriptures.!!!) However we in generally speaking make a distinction. Wen giving my testimony i always state that i believed in Jesus and God and what the BIble said bt wasnt saved. I think the proper terminology would be i have a knowledge of or understanding in the mental sense bt these feelings never caused any response frm myself, it didnt mean anything to me. In the same sense Satan knows there is a God etc. but doesnt have faith. Is believing enough? In the bblical sense of the word, meaning faith it is...bt if we have faith, true faith which is imparted to us by the Spirit so that we may respond to the Gospel, and thus grace is giving...(saving faith) "For by grace are ye saved and thtat ot of yourselves, it is the gift if God..." If this is true saving faith then the Spirit dwells within and we are united to Christ and His work on the cross...victory over sin. Thus we are bound to change in our thoughts, desries etc. ie we are mindful of things above etc. "If any man be in Chirst he is a new creature behold all things are become new..." and the quoted verse "faith without deeds is dead". This is not indicating that we need to work for our salvation but merely that they are an evidence of the work of grace in our lives...for their are many false professors (CHrist said that one the day of judegment many will say to Him Lord Lord but He knew them not...) So in short... Faith is enough (saving faith and work of grace) but if a work of regeneration has truely occured then we are new creature and are actions will be in evidence of this....N.B. the fruit baring vines/ fruits of the spirit in galations etc. |
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its long =/
2:53 PM Jul 11