Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Mahora Academy. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
A Philisophical Question...; For those of you with brains...
Topic Started: Jul 19 2005, 09:05 AM (842 Views)
Dark Overlord Bane
Member Avatar
Middle Schooler
[ *  * ]
"Every army has its heroes who fight for the hopes of their people. Even if they both believe they're both fighting for good, one of them will die, and with them, an army, a nation"

-Excerpt from a speech, can't remember which...

Xingyi Zhang, I am sorry to say, but I believe Spiritmage-dono has the true meanings down.

When we believe that we are serving the greater good by starting a war, and our enemies believe that to serve the greater good we must die, we are both applying our sense of right. In turn, that means each of us must believe that the other is morally wrong, so there is no situation where right and wrong are appied, in which you can discount the morality of the coices made.


Serial murder...in the eyes of an insane man who no longer cares about good or evil, perhaps morality can be discounted. However, this brings up your key question, does that make him evil?

Yes, and no. From his point of view, there is no good nor evil, he infringed on no rights. From a public standpoint, yes, he's evil, he made a choice that negatively impacted the greater good.

What I'm trying to say is, anyone can be good, and anyone can be bad. It's who you choose to side with, that will determine what is "evil"

Furthermore fighting is not our nature, self-preservation is. FIghting is merely the most primitive and accessable facet of it. The decision to fight is one of the most basic moral conflicts.

Phew...let me finish up by adding to what Spiritmage-dono showed with the deer example. When a person is deemed evil, her can be called a villian. Tell me, before humans, who or what was the evil, the good, and explain their conflict...
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
thousand-mistress
Member Avatar
Actual Pedophile
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Evil and sin started when Eve ate the forbbiden fruit, gave some to Adam, and that was the first evil. I hope I don't get booted off the forum for saying that... D*** the ACLU!!!! <_< those people piss me off SOOOOOOOO much.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Dark Evangel
Unregistered

Some would say it was humanity's first step to freedom, TM. I won't go too long into the Bible thread (religion is normally a no-no in most discussions), but isn't it really a parallel to the Prometheus legend? Serpent gives couple self-awareness and freedom, but is demonised for it?
Quote Post Goto Top
 
aigu92
Member Avatar
I know how to do this! Yay!
[ *  *  * ]
Spiritmage,Jul 21 2005
06:39 PM
Xingyi Zhang,Jul 20 2005
12:23 AM
you're still missing my answer, and avoiding the question's real point. Spiritmage, you're switching around the applications of the word wrong and evil interchangably, I believe, and the other two of you are just saying it is illusory, which is easy enough to agree with until you come through with something like, oh, say... human sacrafice or serial murder for no particular reason, even insanity.

No, the point I want to bring up is that evil, or perhaps I should say 'bad things' even when it comes to hurting others, are NOT WRONG. At all, no matter how you're looking at it. Good and Evil are simply differing points of view. Generally, the side that's more ruthless about achieving their goal is considered 'evil', but they're no different from the good. It's the means they use to reach the end that generally causes us to define it as one or the others. Gimme some points to dispute this directly, and I'll be able to give better detail on my point.

aah but here's the thing. There is no such thing as a human sacrafice or serial murder for no reason. There's ALWAYS a reason, be it religous beliefs, insanity, rise in power, etc. And as such, while it is morally wrong, it is not evil. And because of this, there have been no acts that have been evil, thus there is no evil outside of the human imagination.


Now if your asking if there is such a thing as right and wrong, then that i believe there is. However, it's different for each person. Each of us has a seperate moral code, and while mine may be very very close to someone elses, there wil still be minor differences. For example, I may say it's fine for some one to kill another in self defense. We both might agree that stealing is wrong, but I may say that if that's the only means of survival left, then it's alright, while another may disagree. We all know what is good and was is wrong, for each of us . My moral code dosn't apply to you, nor yours to mine. That's why we have to have set laws, otherwise it's be chaos because no one would agree on anything in the manner of crimes and punishments and might would make right.

Have you ever watched those serial murder shows? Some serial murderers murder for no reason. A judge even asked a murderer why he murdered so many people and he replied, "I'd like to know that myself." He wasn't suffering any mental diseases or anything, he just liked the feel of watching someone die. That is evil and that is wrong. I don't know what fantasy world you're living in, but evil exists and people might do it for no reason.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Dark Evangel
Unregistered

Quote:
 
I don't know what fantasy world you're living in, but evil exists and people might do it for no reason.


I'm afraid I have to agree with this - regardless of "religious beliefs", the tenets of some people are definitely evil - e.g. Al-Qaeda's belief that they're superior to "Kaffirs" (unbelievers) and all other religions must be destroyed (the scary thing is that this is written in the Koran!).

So yes, when psychotic beliefs like that exist, that's the true definition of evil.
Quote Post Goto Top
 
Alucard
Member Avatar
Konoka-ness Master (army of one XD)
[ *  *  *  * ]
the Universe is made up of two basic principals

"Give and Take"

"Evil" is simply one entity Taking, While "Good" is another being taken from. the unverse is subject to change, but no matter how you put it, change involves taking and Giving. Without these principals, the unverse could never go on, because the universe can never stop changing.

Kinda like a line infront of the busstop when the bus arrives. your in the back of the line, cuz you arent being pushy enough, and are instead being curtious, but the people who your being curtious too, are pushy enough to except your courtesy without a thankyou(whens the last time you said"Thanks for getting outta my way") yet maybe your in the back cuz the person infront of you isn't being pushy enough. If your pushy, then the people behind you get to go on first, and get a better seat, but then you take the good seats away from the other people in the crowd whom your being pushy too. but if you stay behind, someone behind you may not get a good seat cuz of your decision. or, maybe the bus arrived infront of where you where standing, and you inherently get to go first, without being considered pushy or curtious. and if your in the very back, then the most was taken from you, the nice guy. It's all about "Give and Take"

and also

reality is made up of the beliefs and ideals of each individual participant. Based on the knowledge gained by each participant, the reality for each singular individual, along with the whole that that individuals makes up, that is realtiy for all entitys. This is why children have the strongest imaginations, all for their lack of knowledge, because knowledge is what bulids reality. It's because we all are capable of agreeing with eachother, that we can form a reality. often, we all agree on what is "Evil", That is our reality. But just because we all have our own reality, doesn't mean that IS reality. It is simply our reality

Christianity has compiled a list

Envy
Lust
Gluttony
Greed
Sloth
Wrath
Pride

let me ask, is it not Prideful to proclaim your own religion as the only correct one? And is it not Wrathful to destroy those who don't conform?

but in ancient times, this was considered saving them. Did the pegans consider them their saviors?

No being is capable of exsisting without some evil. This however not "Evil" just Balence. without philosophers, the world would be a broken mirrior, never showing the true reality. Yet they are considered the nonconformists, who refuse to believe the reality set before them. In the bigt picture, philosophers are "Evil", because they're beings of diviation, who choose to argue with the "Normal" reality, and this inherently is what evil is. Universaly, What is "Evil" really? Does evil even exsist? or is that simply the individual trying to atain some sort of balence? because without the ability to move freely, a dog will inherently want to get out of it's kennal, Right? is the dog "Evil" for wanting to see outside

It all brings us back to the "blindfolded, tied to a chair, in a cave" theory(if you haven't heard it, then it may not make sence to you). is the hand that is offering you apples and water your savior, or your captive? is the chair your safty, or your prison? does the blindfold ever alow you to see your fellow captves? or just keep you trapped to this fate of never seeing outside this place, in which you are can never see who else is trapped? and then, when you are released, you finnaly see the world outside the cave. the tree where the apples come from, the river where the water comes from, and the face of your captive. when you are back in the cave, your fellow captives don't believe a word of what you've told them. At the end of the theory, your other fellow captives are released, and the first thing they do is kill you. Who is "Evil in this theory?

"Evil" is simply deviation from the reality set infront of you. but without deviation, nothing could ever change, and yet the universe is always changing

It's all one big Cycle. THAT is what "Evil" is
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
aigu92
Member Avatar
I know how to do this! Yay!
[ *  *  * ]
Alucard,Oct 18 2006
09:39 PM
the Universe is made up of two basic principals

"Give and Take"

"Evil" is simply one entity Taking, While "Good" is another being taken from. the unverse is subject to change, but no matter how you put it, change involves taking and Giving. Without these principals, the unverse could never go on, because the universe can never stop changing.

Kinda like a line infront of the busstop when the bus arrives. your in the back of the line, cuz you arent being pushy enough, and are instead being curtious, but the people who your being curtious too, are pushy enough to except your courtesy without a thankyou(whens the last time you said"Thanks for getting outta my way") yet maybe your in the back cuz the person infront of you isn't being pushy enough. If your pushy, then the people behind you get to go on first, and get a better seat, but then you take the good seats away from the other people in the crowd whom your being pushy too. but if you stay behind, someone behind you may not get a good seat cuz of your decision. or, maybe the bus arrived infront of where you where standing, and you inherently get to go first, without being considered pushy or curtious. and if your in the very back, then the most was taken from you, the nice guy. It's all about "Give and Take"

and also

reality is made up of the beliefs and ideals of each individual participant. Based on the knowledge gained by each participant, the reality for each singular individual, along with the whole that that individuals makes up, that is realtiy for all entitys. This is why children have the strongest imaginations, all for their lack of knowledge, because knowledge is what bulids reality. It's because we all are capable of agreeing with eachother, that we can form a reality. often, we all agree on what is "Evil", That is our reality. But just because we all have our own reality, doesn't mean that IS reality. It is simply our reality

Christianity has compiled a list

Envy
Lust
Gluttony
Greed
Sloth
Wrath
Pride

let me ask, is it not Prideful to proclaim your own religion as the only correct one? And is it not Wrathful to destroy those who don't conform?

but in ancient times, this was considered saving them. Did the pegans consider them their saviors?

No being is capable of exsisting without some evil. This however not "Evil" just Balence. without philosophers, the world would be a broken mirrior, never showing the true reality. Yet they are considered the nonconformists, who refuse to believe the reality set before them. Universaly, What is "Evil" really? Does evil even exsist? or is that simply the individual trying to atain some sort of balence? because without the ability to move freely, a dog will inherently want to get out of it's kennal, Right? is the dog "Evil" for wanting to see outside

It all brings us back to the "blindfolded, tied to a chair, in a cave" theory(if you haven't heard it, then it may not make sence to you). is the hand that is offering you apples and water your savior, or your captive? is the chair your safty, or your prison? does the blindfold ever alow you to see your fellow captves? or just keep you trapped to this fate of never seeing outside this place, in which you are can never see who else is trapped? and then, when you are released, you finnaly see the world outside the cave. the tree where the apples come from, the river where the water comes from, and the face of your captive. when you are back in the cave, your fellow captives don't believe a word of what you've told them. At the end of the theory, your other fellow captives are released, and the first thing they do is kill you. Who is "Evil in this theory?

"Evil" is simply deviation from the reality set infront of you. but without deviation, nothing could ever change, and yet the universe is always changing

It's all one big Cycle. THAT is what "Evil" is

I mainly agree with you. But there is evil that's just evil, not in the form of achieving balance, but just evil. I think that you're definition of evil should be that of "bad." I think bad is needed in the world to achieve balance, but not evil.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Dark Evangel
Unregistered

Quote:
 
I mainly agree with you. But there is evil that's just evil, not in the form of achieving balance, but just evil. I think that you're definition of evil should be that of "bad." I think bad is needed in the world to achieve balance, but not evil.


Exactly. What better definition of evil, for example, than Bin Laden? Pure evil, such as that one, are only out for destruction to satisfy their own gratification. There are some individuals with no redeeming features, and this world, to survive, should never have a place for them.
Quote Post Goto Top
 
Quiet Fan talking
Member Avatar
Middle Schooler
[ *  * ]
I personally believe Good and Evil are beyond simple actions.

It's the motivation of actions that are Good or Evil and make said actions Good or Evil.

Good and Evil are intangable.

I do an example.

If someone (Person 1) was about to kill another (Person 2) and you have a gun and are left with two choices, kill Person 1 or let him/her kill Person 2. If you choose to kill Person 1 inorder to protect Person 2 then your choice was for Good. The same thing applies if you are unable to take the life of Person 1. Either way your actions are not Evil.

But if you held a grudge against Person 1 and killed him/her for that reason or you kill Person 1 for killing Person 2 then your actions are Evil.



But there is something beyond Good and Evil, purity. To belong to one side completely and to have no trace of the other.

If you choose to die instead of allowing either Person 1 or Person 2 to die or you can keep yourself and the other two alive then your actions were purely Good.

If you choose to Kill Person 1 and Person 2 just for the hell of it then your actions were purely Evil.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


And to Alucard's "blindfolded, tied to a chair, in a cave" theory, I would say if the other captives killed because they took offence to what the first one told them then they are Evil. Also if the Captor released the others so they could kill then he/she is Evil as well.

If the captives were tought to believe that killing someone who talked of the things that the first captive did was right, then they could not be held responsible for what they did. And in that sence you could not call the other captives Evil. But there is more to this part that I will go into later, I'm short on time now.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Alucard
Member Avatar
Konoka-ness Master (army of one XD)
[ *  *  *  * ]
ya know Seras_Victoria? the new member that hasn't done much recently?

she said to me(in real life) "They're taking it back to Physical Worldly meanings" and I have to agree

my idea's on evil are philisophical, and have not much to do with the evil you see everyday. It's looking at the VERY big picture, that I do when philosphysing

and Quiet Fan T...

It's not MY cave theory. It's been in the philosophy world for years(Possibly centurys)

and in my opinion, the guy trying to tell the other two about the outside world is evil, because he's deviating from reality. He's trying to challenge everything they know, which isn't good

I said bafore, Evil is merely Diviation from what is called "Normal"

evil is simply "Being Strange"

just hoping to clear some stuff up

PS:Bin Laden isn't justified in his actions, but in the large picture, he's "Evil" because he's diviating(Killing is Wrong. We can ALL Agree on that) and he's also evil for being the one causing change(Bombs change stuff. Live with it)

People always avoid change. They can't help it, because it's the center of evil in the universe(Yet never stops happening)

maybe the gods(If you didn't know, I'm an athiest, and "Gods" is simply a representation of the universe) decided that the Universe can never go on without evil, so they choose to never allow change to stop

That takes me back to the theoy of "Who Cares" which says that everyone isa small entity with no REAL influence or effect on the universe(One man can't change the world) and if they die, it won't effect anything but the small amount of other entitys closly related to them

You'd think a guy with all this stuff in his head would start losing any care when anything happens, but we're supposed to feel pain, so just accept it(having accepted this, I've resigned myself to feeling pain when people die, cuz as a small speck, I'm expected to be in pain without any argument. So I won't argue 'bout nuthin)

BTW, that whole "One Man Can't Change The World" thing.Well many men can. You know the old saying "A Huge Waterfall is just a 'buncha Li'l Drops Workin Together"

I also once heard "No amount of respect between two men's cooporation will ever amount to the Cooporation of a mutual Hatred"

That says that humans are doomed to be evil, cuz we're the one's who change stuff the most(Animals call Evolution their regular change) and if anything, it's not the gods who change everything around us, but the stuff around us made BY us. We try to advance everything ALL The Time(Statistics say that a scientific discovery is made EVERY week!) so we command change to come to us. That's why we're viewed as the most "Evil" beings, cuz we're just WAY to dang fast

the irony is that we always avoid change by nature(mayb our concience telling us "Change Is Evil! Don't Do It!"? ;) ) even though we inflict it on ourselves

I guess you could say, from my earlier statement, that humans allow evil to drive them, and work together to cause change.Hatred causes change, and that makes Hatred "Evil", The fact that hatred causes change on such a fast and grand scale is why we reguard it as "Evil"

Our minds are powerful change weapons(Go to "What is Knowledge" for details) so they could be reguarded as "Evil"

You'll never see an animal say "Hey! That Tree Looks Funny! I should Do Something About It!"

That's why animals are perfect beings ^_^

Well then*Tips his Fedora*, Good Day to you ^_^
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Bibliothecarius Ironicus
Member Avatar
Middle Schooler
[ *  * ]
What makes evil, evil is totally our opinion.

Even evil has its own reasons, and in another person's eyes, it may not be evil.

Evil is totally up to those not performing the "evil" to decide. :sweat:

If that makes sense.

The general public make evil evil, by saying it's evil... I guess.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
xSojix
Member Avatar
Middle Schooler
[ *  * ]
This is what I think...

It's just a fine line between Good and Evil...

Good is what you think/believe is right.

Evil is what you think/believe is wrong.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Gafgar Adolis
Member Avatar
Chaos God of Moderation (and No Pants)
Teachers
Quote:
 
It is unwritten law that a person's being either good or evil is simply based on the view of the majority of others. It makes no difference if you are in fact good. If most people believe you evil, then you are evil.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
UnNegi-relatedname
Member Avatar
Not enough ponies
Approved Members
Gafgar Adolis,Dec 22 2006
12:43 PM
Quote:
 
It is unwritten law that a person's being either good or evil is simply based on the view of the majority of others. It makes no difference if you are in fact good. If most people believe you evil, then you are evil.

See, now I strongly disagree with that
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Bibliothecarius Ironicus
Member Avatar
Middle Schooler
[ *  * ]
UnNegi-relatedname,Dec 22 2006
01:25 PM
Gafgar Adolis,Dec 22 2006
12:43 PM
Quote:
 
It is unwritten law that a person's being either good or evil is simply based on the view of the majority of others. It makes no difference if you are in fact good. If most people believe you evil, then you are evil.

See, now I strongly disagree with that

Sadly, I agree with that. A lot of good and evil is based on opinion itself. So, really, what a lot of people agree to be "good" and to be "evil" is what the general public has pretty much said was "good" and "evil".

Murdering someone is considered "evil". However, if there was a good reason for murder (such as the death penalty in prison), then a lot of people think it's "good".

Good and evil are opinions, in my case. A lot of opinions are affected by the opinions of others. So "good" and "evil" are what everyone else wants us to think is "good" and "evil".

Though, since you strongly disagree, I'd love to hear your counter arguement, or what you think, UnNegi-relatedname! ^_^ Sorry if you stated in previously and I haven't read it in this thread. :sweat:
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Yue's Corner · Next Topic »
Add Reply