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| Suicide; Your opinion? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 22 2006, 10:53 PM (2,573 Views) | |
| Dauthi | Dec 15 2007, 04:34 PM Post #91 |
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GUITAR HEROOOOO.
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What is the difference? You are killing people. Unless you know exactly who is in the plane, or who lives in that base you are about to bomb, all you are doing is getting rid of life. It could be the lives of military personnel, or it could be the lives of innocents, you don't know, and you never will, unless you come face to face with them. Why are Japanese kamikaze pilots more worthy of respect than suicide bombers? They are both simply fighting for their cause. Their choice of targets is different, but is that enough of a distinction? Why is the military a more acceptable target than citizens? |
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| Gafgar Adolis | Dec 15 2007, 07:34 PM Post #92 |
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Chaos God of Moderation (and No Pants)
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Because soldiers know they risk death when they go to war, and yet they go to war anyway so that they may defend their country. Soldiers kill other soldiers. That's the way war works. |
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| frodowise | Dec 15 2007, 08:05 PM Post #93 |
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Uber Soldant
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Uh...If I see an F-18 Super Hornet taking off from an aircraft carrier, I'm pretty dang sure some civilian isn't piloting it...your point makes no sense. |
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| Dauthi | Dec 16 2007, 01:23 AM Post #94 |
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GUITAR HEROOOOO.
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I'm sorry, suggesting that kamikaze pilots don't know who is piloting an aircraft was a mistake. What I meant was that they can't see who is in there; they have no conception of the enemy in their suicide attack. This makes it easier to justify killing people, and especially killing themselves. In theory, soldiers should just kill other soldiers. In practice, soldiers kill both soldiers and civilians. The U.S. bombs cities all the time because it is believed that that is the best way to destroy the enemies' morale. Many of the suicide bombers saw their homes destroyed and their cities in flames. They did not forget it, even in times of peace. The retaliation of these suicide bombers is simply an extension of war and destruction. They view their deaths as a way to defend their ideology and the most effective way to demoralize the enemy. It is not honorable, but neither does it deserve any less honor than the pedestal that kamikaze pilots are elevated to. The kamikaze strategy came into prominence late in World War II, when the Japanese were almost assured to lose. The Japanese had sustained heavy casualties, with the deaths of millions of citizens. Kamikaze was a last-ditch attempt to shock the enemy into an early (and hopefully lenient) treaty to end the war. Does it deserve any more honor than suicide bombing? Both acts were born out of desperation, and a lack of means to combat the opponent. Suicide bombers do not have tanks and jets on their side, they have machine guns, and then they have human bombs that can do a lot more damage. At the time of the kamikaze strategy, Japan had lost most of its military force, and was about to lose the war. Suicide, in both cases, became justifiable, whether through religion or through nationalism. It speaks more for the effects of war than it does for the mentality and justness of suicide bombers and kamikaze pilots. War is an atrocity, and all suicide attacks are an unfortunate manifestation of martyrdom. Distinctions should not be made. |
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| book of life | Dec 17 2007, 12:34 AM Post #95 |
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'3'
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there's a part of me that wonders if I should have brought this: kamikazes and suicide bombers, up to begin with... As I look back at the thread, it seems I failed to point out what I originally wanted to. Why I failed to do so when the opportunity still existed is probably because of my lack of realizing so. The point I originally wanted make was that kamikazes pilots and suicide bombers are respectable in fact that they die, rather, commit suicide for their beliefs/ideology, be it their country, religion, or whatever else it may be, these people had it and fought and died by and for it. I'll admit, what they do is not the best, it's not right, and it's debatable if it's justifiable. But, I find living and dying by one's beliefs respectable. Don't get me wrong: there some wrong beliefs out there (like ones involving racism, sexism, etc.) and they don't get my respect, but this topic isn't about those. The kamikazes and suicide bombers truly believed in their beliefs, expect for the occasional exceptions, died for those beliefs and it's that which earns my respect. Mind you, it only a certain level of respect I give them, after all, in the end, they do kill others. Like, I wrote earlier, what they do isn't exactly right. This is all my opinion and how I do things, I'm not forcing this onto anyone, or expecting anyone to feel the same. Dauthi, concerning what you wrote, I will get back to it after I get some sleep and take my exam much, much later today. (this is in case you see this and realize I didn't really write about anything you wrote) |
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| TwilightElegy | Dec 17 2007, 04:49 AM Post #96 |
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Middle Schooler
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i'd like to reiterate my point: taking life for ideological grounds, whether it be your own life or others, is a horribly stupid way of making a stand. life is sacred, we are only given one, so DON'T throw it away. there is nothing noble about suicide, and i refuse to indorse it. |
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| Akira-Kun | Dec 23 2007, 01:15 AM Post #97 |
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<3
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Suicide, I believe, is the person's choice and also a way out. It isn't in anyway evil or wrong; unless you're a religious person or something... I think that it's when you feel like you have nothing to lose, can't take the life you have, and just decided to end your life, pain, and the problems you have. When you commit suicide, I believe, you're leaving your problems for someone else to deal with and adding new ones to your family and friends. One of my friends tried commiting suicide once cause of some problem with his girlfriend; I punched him in the stomach and tried to choke him but he's too tall for me, I also point blank told him he tried doing something that would cause us to not see eachother and hang out anymore. Anyways, I don't think suicide is the best choice but it isn't ours to choose for them just hope they can work something out and hope for the best. |
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| Dauthi | Dec 23 2007, 08:57 PM Post #98 |
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GUITAR HEROOOOO.
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I don't feel as if suicide is particularly right, but I have to say that it sends a message far stronger than any demonstration. Something about self-inflicted pain just captures the attention of people. The suicide bombers garner far more publicity than regular old Palestinian rebels. More attention is drawn to the self-injury performed by the sect Opus Dei than any other ritual they have. There is this sense that if we are willing to sacrifice our very flesh, than our cause must be very worthwhile, at least to us, indeed. And you can argue that it is a social problem, but if it is, then it is a circular one. Men kill themselves for a cause, and people see that suicide death as having far more meaning than a regular death. At any rate. What about euthanization? If you have a terminal illness that is very painful? Would suicide be justifiable in that case? |
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| TwilightElegy | Dec 23 2007, 09:59 PM Post #99 |
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Middle Schooler
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Euthanasia is a bit of a sticky topic... i think it depends on the situation |
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| Alucard | Jan 21 2008, 03:06 AM Post #100 |
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Konoka-ness Master (army of one XD)
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I've decided that, even though I don't particularly agree with self-killing, I'll argue for it. Why? No need to care. Just argue with me. Nothing more to say. the basic nature of action is conviction (here and there, it could just be a moment's worth conviction, depending on the hot-headedness of the person). so what conviction makes us end our lives? Pain, mostly. When we've reached a level of suffering beyond what we believe ourselves capable or deserving, we don't want to go on, so we end it. in a sense, we're weak for doing it. Most will tell us to keep going and that it'll all be good in the end. Of course, they're not feeling it. Chances are, people who say that are more or less never going to experience such a level of pain. It's what I call 'the power of the hypocrite' - the importance of listening to those who see from such a different viewpoint than your's. Somewhere in there is a level of air-headed wisdom (like the drug addict who tells you to never take up drugs) back to the point, what must be going through this person's head? For one, this pain is something they don't believe them self to deserve. If anything, that's a positivity they keep up to keep themselves from caving into the pain. Unfortunately, it continues to hammer away at them while the continue holding up their barrier. Soon it penetrates the barrier and strikes deep. Not long after, once they feel like the hurting wont stop, their barrier weakens and the do begin to believe that maybe they do deserve it. certainly not good for anyone's self-esteem. by some point they'll ask themselves "Why am I complaining like this?". Certainly they can't possibly fall into self-pity that easily. If they do that, they may start feeling guilty for so selfishly crying out like they do. this also makes them feel weak. (mostly subconscious) afterwards, once the pain feels so monumental that they don't feel they can take it, they consider ending it. It's by this point that people (albeit, subtly) tell them that it's weak to make an escape. Little do they know that this person already long admitted to their own weakness. People have a habit of looking down on things they deem weak, like pettiness, inability or apathy. It's called 'evaluative language'; the need for people to reflect on what they see as fact, when in reality it's a reflection of their own metal states
People like to take a high ground against things that seem small-minded and immature because they believe that puts them beyond such things. It doesn't. Humans are human. We eat, breathe and sleep. We naturally have instincts, and with instincts, primitive behaviors. Maturity is more or less the ability to overcome our primitive side (This makes us world-weary) Ultimately, giving into pain is a primitive action, while logic tells us to continue striving towards a good end. If that suicidal person has long admitted to their own weakness and is ready to give up, there's not much to fight against it that doesn't use evaluative language. More or less, our morals tell us that it's wrong. No real need to think about it. Just keep saying it. And our evaluative language tells us that giving into any weakness, no matter what that weakness may be, is completely weak and should never be done or even mildly considered. After all, between people who call themselves weak enough to break down the 'Barrier of Strength' (or pride, whatever you want to call it), and people who believe themselves stronger than what they're evaluated as weak, who's really more aware? now respond without using evaluative language (or don't. It doesn't matter). |
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| Furu Kei | Feb 3 2008, 12:15 AM Post #101 |
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Middle Schooler
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<_< *randomly sneaks in and posts* x_x…Furu is sorry if I end up saying wrong or bad things x_x *bows gomen in advance* Suicide…doesn’t necessarily have to do solely with weakness, pain, or…attention, or as the way out. They each may play a small part in it…but it is not all. Everyone, I believe…has certain level of purpose in their lives. And when that purpose is lost- or when it ends…suicide might be the result. There are various amounts of pain that one can endure…both physically and mentally. And though people would think suicide is because of pain, because the person believes they don’t deserve the pain or can’t handle it that they commit suicide…. Pain is not really the main problem. It is feeling that pain, and not knowing the reason you should stay with the pain. It is the loss of purpose, the loss of reason as to why they should remain when there is nothing to remain for- except pain. Surely, there are others out there who have endured more pain, others who are able to handle it, others, who have a reason for enduring that pain- whether they are doing it for others or for a goal they are trying to achieve. Besides…when you have reached past a point where the pain is too much, too deep, too great…leaving you too broken, too hurt, too beaten…when it happens over and over again- there is a point where the opposite occurs and you end up feeling nothing at all. There is only numbness, only so much left to be shattered, after all. And at that moment, all that remains is this cold void- a blank emptiness that makes you feel…dead, in a sense- as if you are already gone. And you want to feel something, want to prove to yourself that you are still alive, that you are not too far gone to be saved. You want to believe that you still exist, that you have a purpose in the world…and some times, the emptiness can make you feel so cold…so…lonely and dead, that you would even welcome the pain. So you start hurting yourself, (<_<…why some people start cutting, perhaps?) just to feel the pain…just to stop that void from reappearing. But in the end, the pain that you had felt was already too great- your being already too broken, and no extent of self inflicted pain could make you feel that pain once more. And suddenly you are very afraid. Afraid that you are already lost, afraid that you can’t be saved, that there had been nothing in your life but pain- but now that the pain is replaced by emptiness, now that you are so used to the pain that you cannot feel it anymore…you begin to fear that there is nothing left in the world. You begin to fear that one day, you would get used to this emptiness…and that day you would really be gone, really be dead. So you hurt yourself more, trying…just trying to feel that pain and assure yourself that you are still alive. That through pain, there is still hopes of one day feeling something different from pain, hopes of feeling happiness- of feeling something, anything besides that emptiness. And when you have reached that point…the only thought left is suicide. If there is no reason, no purpose for you to continue…if what you continue to feel day to day is emptiness- then it is like you are already dead. Death of the body only follows after death of the soul. Or…lets just say, maybe you haven’t reached that point of emptiness. Maybe you can still feel that pain, and you want to stop it. Stop the pain that plagues the your body and soul every waking moment. Stop that feeling of hopelessness each and every time the pain steals your breath away, leaving you bleeding from the soul and silently calling for help… Sometimes people wish for suicide at this point in time as well. To end the pain that never seems to yield- whether it is physical or mental. To end this something that they seemingly cannot handle. Even then… suicide only occurs if the people in pain loses purpose. Why endure the pain? Why continue to live this painful life if there is nothing for me to live for? I met a little boy once…of around the age of twelve, living in a poor, poor country. Each and everyday, he would walk around in the streets under the hot ruthless sun, begging for food. He carried in himself a deathly disease, and each step he took, he was in pain. Both of his arms were gone, and he did everything with his legs. (O_O amazing how he used chopsticks with legs too!!) His parents have both died, and what is left of his family (his aunts, etc.) do not bother to take care of him. He did not know if he would be able to grow old. He would probably never find a good place to call home. Never find love. Additionally…he did not know when his legs would follow his arms…and leave him as well. Surely…not many people in the world are experiencing greater pain then he? What is it that keeps him going? Why is it that he has more will to live than others who have greater chances of finding happiness- yet they are the ones who decide to end their own lives? Is it that they are weak? That they should think of suicide when someone who is enduring much, much more than they- can still handle it and want to live? No… There is something he has, that everyone has, but people who decide to go for suicide do not- and that is…a purpose. That poor little boy has a little sister that he is taking care of (x_x…it is sad, to see children so young enduring so much…yet…kinda heart warming, to see that through such hardships, love is there, ne? and thought they have nothing….they have everything in each other, and they are living for each other, too). He has a life ahead- though it would be a hard and possibly short life- that he has to live, and happiness that he owes himself to one day discover. Whether it is to just go on living for someone, or for the sake of having lived, it is a purpose, and it is enough to go on. But to those people who decide on suicide…there is nothing. There is no purpose left, no reason left. What happens when you feel that you are not needed? When…you really are not needed, and despite the fact that people tell you that you are- you can never find a reason why you should be needed. They say those who commit suicide sometimes do it for attention…Because they want to be noticed… because they want attention. They say people who commit suicide will do it no matter what you do. But the thing is…people who commit suicide need attention. They need someone to tell them that they are still wanted in the world, that there are people who love them. They need someone to show them the reason to go on. Someone to remind them constantly…should their will falter. Those who commit suicide hurts most the people around them…people who love them. (They hurt themselves, too. But at that point…how much of their soul is left to be hurt? And if they had already lost the reason to be living…suicide is only the follow up. One cannot say that they ruined their lives, because there is no life left to be ruined should the person reach the point of desperation enough to commit suicide) But if you love that person enough, if you would be hurt should they commit suicide…then why not help them out of those thoughts? Why not give them the time, the love…show them the reasons they need to go on living? It is because time and love is too much to ask. Everyone has their own lives to live, and things they must do. It is fate…that is at fault. And bad timing. Suicide is selfish. Yes. But it is desperation, and it is hopelessness…it is a web of darkness that traps someone and does not let go. It is worse than the most horrible of illnesses because with diseases, at least you can identify it, can cure it. Thoughts of suicide can only be cured with time. With love. And sometimes…those things are too hard to ask for. Sometimes it is something you cannot ask for, and something no one can give. Sometimes the person who commits suicide is helpless because they do not know how to ask for it. How much is enough time? How much is enough love? People say…you can always find someone who would need you. People say…it is weak to give up. People say…it is wrong, it is selfish to destroy your life. But people don’t understand, because they don’t feel it, and they don’t experience it. If there truly are people out there to care for those who want to commit suicide…where are they? Where are they at a time when they are needed most? If it is weak to give up…then what is the reason to not give up? Giving up is not because of weakness…giving up is because one can’t find a reason that is strong enough to keep them holding on. (o_o that is not to say for everyone to give up…it is to say that we should try to find that reason, and maybe…help others find that reason as well- should they be unable to see it) People can create miracles…if they have the reason to. It is wrong to destroy a life. But what is wrong and what is right? What is life? Sometimes it is hard to tell. The Japanese commit seppuku for their honor…because they believe honor is more important than life, and life without that pride has no purpose. Kamikaze pilots commit suicide because they believe it is for their country, and their purpose is to fight for that country. Suicide bombers commit suicide because it is their belief, their religion. What is life…when all you have known is hunger and pain…and your religion tells you that if you become a suicide bomber- you will go to a happier place in heaven. Why shouldn’t they do it for their family, when those horrible people who give them the weapon and tell them to commit this act also tell them that they will give the person’s family food (that they know they will never be able to provide by living in such a hopeless place) when they die in the act? What then? Suicide is wrong. WRONG in every way possible…that one should take their own life, and ruin others along with it. It is wrong to erase something so sacred, whether your own, or others’. But it is done in desperation…a hopeless act when there is nothing left. People don’t know what they have never felt, ne?… don’t understand what they have never experienced. And those people do things because they have their own reasons that they believe is right. As human…we all do wrong things. Sometimes our different beliefs lead to problems. Sometimes people commit mistakes like suicide, and destroy what they cannot mend…cannot recover. Don’t hate them for it. Don’t judge them as weak, or cruel, or bad. (x_x…pointless murder, on the other hand…*shivers* badbadbad!!!!!!!) They made a mistake. And it is sad that they paid for it with their life. It is up to the people around them to notice it before it happens. To help them change it, before it is too late. (though sometimes…there is also bad timing…and though the people around them want to help…they are unable to. It is unfortunate…>: and a very very sad thing.) Ne, slow down. ^_____^<333333333333 Spend time with those you love. Love them, as much as you can…and maybe…meet and love others as well. Butbutbut!! most importantly....^-^ show the people around you that you care. If everyone has love, and everyone has those who would notice, who would care and spend time with them before it is too late…^-^ things like that won’t happen, ne? ^-^ because love is the best reason to remain living<3333, love is the best reason to not destroy lives >: >: In the end…the conclusion and summary to Furu’s longlonglong suicide essay… ^-^ The world needs more hugs. Life passes away quickly. Don’t wait until it is too late >: Have you hugged anyone lately? -Furu Kei (x_x…gomen…I said too much. <_< …and who am I to say that what I believe is correct? Gomen again. <_< …I... don’t know what I’m saying…) |
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| aigu92 | Feb 4 2008, 12:07 AM Post #102 |
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I know how to do this! Yay!
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Why can't you capitalize the beginnings of your sentences ever? It makes me cry to see such horrible grammar. This isn't a personal attack or anything. It's just a note from a grammar nazi. And personally, I believe suicide is not only wrong, it's stupid. Life is amazing, but you sometimes have to fight for it. Being depressed and anti-social isn't going to help. If you have horrible family situations, call the police or child services. If you have no friends, be more personable and befriend people outside your school, who don't know you. Pain can be avoided 99% of the time. Of course, the times they can't be would be if you were kidnapped or are fatally ill. But suicide still wouldn't be the answer. What happens when you die? Personally, I believe nothing happens. You disappear. We live on this earth for such a short time, shortening it to end pain is giving in. Never give up. Maybe once you've given up, you can commit suicide. If you're too much of a lazy ass to get a more interesting life on earth then you would have being dead, then why would we need y'all on the planet anyway? Harsh. Sorry. (Wasn't directed to anyone, btw. Except all the angsty emo kids of the world.)
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| Evenkurugan | Feb 4 2008, 12:19 AM Post #103 |
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Eventeed Procrastination.
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Don't be sorry Furu Kei. You raised very good points. In my eyes, its all how you look at it. Depends on peoples beleifs. I'm not standing for it, by all means, I hate suicide. No matter what. It really is horrible finding out someone committed suicide, no matter what the case. Though there are things on both sides of the argument, that actually make this in my eyes, the chicken and the egg argument. So basically, I'm saying, there are different and various reasons people commit suicide. There is such a wide range of reasons, that I don't think we can just answer the question is suicide wrong when there is such a range of reasons. Like I said, suicide is bad. Just when is it waste of life and when is it understandable? Back when airplanes where first used for war, they did not have parachutes. They where sometimes left with the option to shoot themselves in the head, or fall thousands of feet in a burning airplane, burning all the way down. Yes, it would be extremely hard to accept the fact someone had to shoot themselves, but is it completely wrong? Did that person have to suffer a worst fate? Hope I made sense. If not, oh well. I sometimes have a hard time explaining myself. |
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| Alucard | Feb 4 2008, 12:22 AM Post #104 |
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Konoka-ness Master (army of one XD)
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1. I move better when I don't have to focus on grammar. Take my eye off an idea for one second and it's gone 2. Pain can rarely be properly avoided. It's inevitable by it's basic nature 3. Life is amazing... by a few people's standards 3.the depression being unable to help doesn't say much. Some people can't avoid it. They have to lapse into a state of pure unhappiness. If they didn't, they'd be lacking many emotional, human traits. Traits that people need to enjoy life. 4.Funny thing, that. People have this inherent inability ti accept failure... of other people. for whatever reason, weakness and inability seems to be the first thing people see at all times. People punish other people for showing their human flaw. People hear "weak", they dismiss it Much like how no guy walks up to you and starts talking about that bet he lost last week. Humans are like that. Holding up a barrier of pseudo perfection. So no, it's not weak to wish death on yourself. It's human. anyway, look at Furu's post. It's a good outlook on the subject PS:I'm not particularly for suicide, as a matter of personal pride (like I said above, people always boo weakness, me included). Even still, talking for the opposing side is better for understanding it |
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| Evenkurugan | Feb 4 2008, 12:26 AM Post #105 |
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Eventeed Procrastination.
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I agree on this. Furu Kei's post has many things that can be qouted for truth. |
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It makes me cry to see such horrible grammar. This isn't a personal attack or anything. It's just a note from a grammar nazi.
Harsh. Sorry. (Wasn't directed to anyone, btw. Except all the angsty emo kids of the world.)

3:47 AM Jul 11