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Politicians and War
Topic Started: Jul 19 2007, 09:52 AM (578 Views)
frodowise
Uber Soldant
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EDIT: If the mods want to delete this because nobody posts, please feel free to do so.

I wanted to see what you guys thought about politicians making the important descisions during war.
For example, the incident in Mogadishu in 1993, where two American Black Hawks were shot down during a hostage taking mission. The general in charge of the mission had requested at least two Spectre gunships (which could likely have leveled the whole fracking city) to be backup support in case things went wrong. However, because Washington didn't want to have America entering all-out war with Somalia (or something of that nature...I can't remember the exact wording the general used when describing why) by showing that kind of firepower, the request was denied.
Thus, instead of having the two (or more) gunships secure the crash sites the general had to send in the Rangers and Delta Force soldiers who had been sent on the original hostage mission. Over the course of the 18 hours of combat, 19 American soldiers died. To put icing on this wonderful political bungle, President Clinton :domo: :domo: pulls all troops out of Somalia only a short time later, making the brave sacrifices of those soldiers and the efforts of all the other soldiers who had survived pointless.

It just seems to me that a person who has no idea what a soldier goes through shouldn't tell him what backup or equipment or intel he should or should not have for some idiot political reason.
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Alucard
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Konoka-ness Master (army of one XD)
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I suppose this deserves to move

The nature of war is efficiancy, and the nature of effeiciancy is professionalism, while the nature of professionalism is to be objective. As such, the human isn't a good place to go(They're too opinionated). Something to notice is that most politicians are usually very passionate people (that, or the exact opposite). So, they're not the best to make any descisions. The nature of the politician is order during peace. The nature of the general is order during war

After all, a man in a suit only sees the lives lost as a statistic
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shiryu-ryu
>: D (at last) i learned how to do this too~~!!!
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Quote:
 
I wanted to see what you guys thought about politicians making the important descisions during war.

I think:
War is stupid.
Politicians are even more stupid since they started the war and seem to not know how to end it.
In the end, we pay for they're mistakes. Though in a way, someone who isn't trying to become a politician and help settle the thing himself like he think it should be, dosen't deserve to complain...
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DeathkaiserG
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shiryu-ryu,Sep 7 2007
11:48 AM
War is stupid.

Yes, but we can avoid this Stupidness because of some selfish people trying to take over the world
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Zaroff
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I don't think the government (in America at least) is in proper working order to make any choices. Ideally politicians are elected to look out for the interest of the people during both times of peace and war. A democratic government should exist for the people. But unfortunately in America, the government exist for itself and the people are left to the wind.
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Asril_Mertos
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Yamaxanadu
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In this modern day wars seems not to be fought for national pride but for profit. Lives lost are statistics while the opposing force is not treated as such but as merely an obstacle in the path of ultimate victory. Politicians have shaped war into this. On the battlefield honor and pride once meant something and the knights and soldiers who took to the battlefield were conferred great respect. Now honor and pride mean nothing in the big picture and soldiers are but a playing pieces for politicians to move on the playing field. As long as the casualties don't reach the maximum limit politicians could really care less about the cost in human lives they pay to get the most profit.
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shiryu-ryu
>: D (at last) i learned how to do this too~~!!!
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Quote:
 
Yes, but we can avoid this Stupidness because of some selfish people trying to take over the world

o_o||| I don't think anybody's trying to take over the world..... at least for now.....
they're just fighting for stupid reasons like respect and other stupid stuff....

Quote:
 
I don't think the government (in America at least) is in proper working order to make any choices. Ideally politicians are elected to look out for the interest of the people during both times of peace and war. A democratic government should exist for the people. But unfortunately in America, the government exist for itself and the people are left to the wind.

D: it's the same in Israel only worse + we're still in war.....
-_-# seriously, all our leaders are like using they're power in order to get more money for themselves rather than using it to take care for the million's of things the state owe the citizens~!! that seriously piss me off~~!!!

EDIT:
Quote:
 
In this modern day wars seems not to be fought for national pride but for profit. Lives lost are statistics while the opposing force is not treated as such but as merely an obstacle in the path of ultimate victory. Politicians have shaped war into this. On the battlefield honor and pride once meant something and the knights and soldiers who took to the battlefield were conferred great respect. Now honor and pride mean nothing in the big picture and soldiers are but a playing pieces for politicians to move on the playing field. As long as the casualties don't reach the maximum limit politicians could really care less about the cost in human lives they pay to get the most profit.

Profit? Like what?
And I think nobody cares for the enemys lives in any war in the history...
btw, I think a politician would probably not get the authority to be responsible for casualities if he were to not care if they'll die or not at all.....
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Asril_Mertos
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Yamaxanadu
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shiryu-ryu,Sep 7 2007
05:54 PM
Profit? Like what?
And I think nobody cares for the enemys lives in any war in the history...
btw, I think a politician would probably not get the authority to be responsible for casualities if he were to not care if they'll die or not at all.....

Resources. Oil, silver, gold. Dozens of wars have been fought for resouces.

While it can be said that the enemy's lives are not cared for, their capabilities,skill and sheer determination are often underestimated.

Governments are the people who ultimately call the shots in war. Without politicians in government and the income they generate an army wouldn't be able to function. Its a symbiotic relationship. Politicians use the military as a PR device while the militaries rely on the politicians to generate income among other things. Also politicians have been known to hire PMCs to fight in areas that would cause too much international controversy if regular military forces were sent in.
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Zaroff
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Asril_Mertos,Sep 7 2007
06:08 PM

Resources. Oil, silver, gold. Dozens of wars have been fought for resouces.


The opening lines to Fallout is relevant enough to post right now...

Fallout Opening
 
War… War never changes. The Romans waged war to gather slaves and wealth. Spain built an empire from its lust for gold and territory. Hitler shaped a battered Germany into an economic superpower. But war never changes. In the 21st century, war was still waged over the resources that could be acquired. Only this time, the spoils of war were also its weapons: petroleum and uranium.
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Alucard
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haven't I ever said before? The ultimate reason for war is fear

You can never eliminate that, so the greed goes on...
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Zaroff
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Alucard,Sep 7 2007
06:23 PM
haven't I ever said before? The ultimate reason for war is fear

You can never eliminate that, so the greed goes on...

Pretty sure Hitler didn't have a lot to fear :3
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Alucard
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Quote:
 
Exactly. You fear not having something and what might become of you in that you don't have it. You fight for food, shelter, things you'll die without. You fear that your country will weaken under the attrition brought on by not having the oil or rare metals buried on the enemy's soil, the soil you're burning now, worried that your revenue will go down, that you wont be a powerful enough nation and you fear that you'll be overthrown by another powerful nation, the one who was smart enough not to let themselves be couragous or honourable. Or worse, your own people in the said rebellion that you wont be able to control without that fear-driven power. And finally, you not only fear what may become of you without that power in your hands, but what that power could mean in the enemy's hands

sure he did. He was a sad, little man :3
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Asril_Mertos
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Yamaxanadu
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Zaroff,Sep 7 2007
06:25 PM
Alucard,Sep 7 2007
06:23 PM
haven't I ever said before? The ultimate reason for war is fear

You can never eliminate that, so the greed goes on...

Pretty sure Hitler didn't have a lot to fear :3

there was always the fact that although he was an anti-semitist he was part Jewish... then his increased paranoia in later years... but Alucard is right... Wars over resouces are fought over fear of not receiving any. Wars over religion are fought under fear of being forced under a new religion. Wars for independence are fought under fear of living under tyranny. Fear is both a powerful ally and one of humanities worst antagonists...
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Alucard
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my quote
 
Fear is what drives people and the power in inflicting fear is the drive to war. They spread fear throughout the other countries and prevent the Rebellion of the citizens(WWll certainly brought out the patriotism in the U.S)

War is of Hatred and Anger. Anger as an emotion is a compound of fear, and hatred as great fear gone too far. It's power is in the pride of bringing fear, hoping that the fear will end so long as you're power can prevent harm to you. In vice-versa, the fear is what drives rebellion and conflict of those cast into fear from your brutality, making humanity your footpath, and soon the uprising begins, and new tyrant is crownd above the ashes of the last. And so is the Cycle

Until people can start trusting eachother, the weapons wont be going anytime soon. I suppose that's the worth of getting rid of them. Completely


Like I said...
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Asril_Mertos
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Yamaxanadu
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sorry bout that Alucard... I was still typing when you posted... T_T
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