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The Dark Side Of Philosophy; ~~Feel the evil~~
Topic Started: Sep 10 2007, 03:39 AM (770 Views)
lord_lir
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MASTER OF FLAMES AND DARKNESS
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Not only a discussion on the evil and moral decay of our world, but this thread shall become the bastion of darkness (in other words, I'm gonna discuss some of the bad stuff in mythology, philosophy and theology)

How about I start up our first debate: THE ORIGINS OF SATAN AND DEMONOLOGY~~~!

We all know (or at least most of us do) that satan was set up as the opposite force to God, an idea that is, infact, rather new (historically speaking).

In the Persian Empire, a theologian named Zoaster created an order out of the chaos of the pantheon of the pagan persian gods... he seperated it all into two deities: Abu Mazda and Ahriman, good and evil respectably.

The concept of ahriman soon spread into hebrew tradition and the Demon, who opesed Yaweh (or God) soon manifested. After further influence by other mythological refrences and such (ie. Hades, Dragons, Pan etc.) the Christian church of Constantin finally had fleshed out the concept of SATAN.

He was an invention by the early church to maintain control over the various christian sects. Anyone who did not agree with the official state church was a heretic and in league with Satan.

Does this mean Satan is a relevant body in christian faith? It is necessary to have an opposition to God, but doesn't Satan just give justification to horrendous acts? (The Crusades, Witch Hunts and even the war on terror have been justified by the concept of battle with Satan's underlings) Or is Satan a symbolic representation of rebellelion and necessary human greed, as believed by the First church of Satan? I leave the rest for you to decide!

Also, here's a few more facts about the Prince of Darkness, to help with the debate:

~according to revelations, Satan is the Beast, and his number is 666. This could refer to Rome, who were occupying jerusalem during Jesus-time, and 666 is the number you get when you add up the numerical values of Nero's (the current emperor during the spread of Christianity)
name (when in Aramaic)

~the concept of Hell began in the idea of the greek Underworld, specifically Tartarus, the lowest level where evil-doers were sent. Jesus also refers to Gehenna, the Flame, where sinners would be punished. this is named after the giant funeral pyre where the Hebrew Authorities burnt the remains of executed murderers and the city's trash.

~The romantisised vision of Satan as an anti-hero or revolutionary was created by Milton, in his epic poem, Paradise Lost, as well as in stories written during the Enlightenment and the french revolution. The stereotype of satan has changed dramatically over the years (in the early 20th Century, for example, Satan became a mischevious imp who was more prominent as an advertising ploy, suggesting hidden danger of hidden delights, while he once again became a rebel during the 60s Protest Movements, where he was adopted as part of the anti-institution movement)

~The First Church of Satan, despite its many rituals (which are NOT like the child molesting tales of the late 70s to 80s, that was just paranoia), does not actual believe in a devil itself, but rather that man should give in to his lust and greed, because it is human nature. their catchphrase: "Hail Satan" was really all just for show.

Anyways, there's some food for thought! I look forward to reading all your contributions (and feel free to argue either way, for or against Satan, I just want to promote a debate here, not take sides). Next time, we'll discuss the Pantheon of devils and how they were created, as well as how greed has become a central part of the modern world (think back to the 80s).

Let the SATAN DEBATE begin!!!!

PS: I don't mean to offend anyone... if you are offended, please contribute why... I'm all about finding peoples opinions here.

~~Lir, the Devil's Advocate~~
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Alucard
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I once remember a term that goes Lucifer was born only to rule over hell, and that all he could do was cause suffering. A being born to be the villain. It closely reminds me of Judas, and how people theorize that without his betrayal, Christ couldn't have ascended to become the true messiah. If that's what it took to stand as the true son of god, then that says that Christ must have been flawed(this is a common theological theory)

If Jesus was flawed(AKA not the true son of god), then god, in his great divine plan said that he needed to be betrayed by a chosen evil apostle. In other words, God made it so that Judas would be the villain in " His story"(the term that invented the word "History", the events that occur in time. God's Divne plan)

What seems so sad is that at the top of the hill, Jesus cryed out "God, oh God, Why have you forsaken me?". It means that even the Messiah, for only a few seconds, felt doubt in his god wom he was so faithful to. if the Messiah may doubt, then can he truly be the son of god?

In the end, he rose to become the true Messiah. Meanwhile, Judas the Betrayer, the one chosen by god was the one who went to hell(in this, Jesus only suffered for minutes while Judas suffers for eternity). In this end, Judas became the one who was truly forsaken, chosen the neccissary evil that brings about good

If in causing this sin he deserved it, then could that decision have only come from doubt?(After all, Conviction is the neccessity of action). If the betrayer may doubt as much as the mesiah, then what makes either good or bad at all?

It just shows you that even god may bring evil and suffering upon his children

so all in all, how is an angel any different from a demon?(They were the same at a time)
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frodowise
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Um, Alucard...Jesus wasn't showing doubt or lack of faith in God, it was simply that He had never been without His Father's presence. Allow me to explain; God cannot look upon sin. When people in the Old Testament saw God, they never, ever, saw His face. He would turn His back to them, else they would perish. Christ, however, had never sinned and God always looked upon Him. When Christ was on the cross (especially during the 3 hours of total darkness) all the sins of the world were put on Him. Please notice that at any point Christ could have called down 12 legions of angels (1 angel slew some thousands of Assyrians in the Old Testament at one point, so imagine 12 legions of that kind of force) to pull Him from the cross. Thus, He hung there suffering physically (from the cross itself) and spiritually (because God could not look upon His Son when He was covered in the sins of the world) but He stayed willingly through it all.

As for Judas, he could have turned and asked for God's forgiveness;nowhere is it stated that Judas could not have been forgiven. However, many scholars believe that Judas never became a true Christian. He never accepted Christ as Lord and Saviour as far as we know. He allowed his guilt and remorse to bring him to suicidal despair instead of allowing it to lead him to God.

Lucifer was once one of God's greatest angels (he was good at one point) but eventually wished to rule on God's throne. He gathered up 1/3 of all the angels of heaven and made war on God (stupid decision).
I'll add more stuff later, but I've gotta go for a while. See ya then :).
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Asril_Mertos
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Wow. Evil side of philosophy huh? Well I'd say that Zoroastrianism was the origin of our concepts of Satan and hell. The entirely evil Angra Mainyu and the entirely good Ahura Mazda.

However our modern day conception of Satan and demons was mostly shaped during the medieval period by the Church. The descriptions of Satan and hell were used to scare followers into following the Church in fear of eternal damnation. In Judaism there is no heaven or hell. Only the realm called "Sheol". Sheol is the place where everyone goes after they die whether they be noble or wicked. It was in Christianity that we started focusing on the concepts of reward and punishment in the afterlife.

Quote:
 
Lucifer was once one of God's greatest angels (he was good at one point) but eventually wished to rule on God's throne. He gathered up 1/3 of all the angels of heaven and made war on God

This concept of Satan was made popular due to the epic poem by John Milton "Paradise Lost". So it is argued that there is no clear distinction between angels and demons other than who they followed.

Quote:
 
As for Judas, he could have turned and asked for God's forgiveness;nowhere is it stated that Judas could not have been forgiven. However, many scholars believe that Judas never became a true Christian. He never accepted Christ as Lord and Saviour as far as we know. He allowed his guilt and remorse to bring him to suicidal despair instead of allowing it to lead him to God.

while I might be called out for this its hard to tell whether one can call Judas a traitor to Christ. The scriptures which tell of Judas as a traitor to him are only among the few picked to be in the bible. However it could be said that those who picked the scriptures to be in the bible where followers of a disciple who was against Judas and wished to soil his name. Back then the Church was divided into factions of people who followed a specific disciple. It would be easy for allied factions who were against Judas to use majority rule to exclude scriptures written by his followers.
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frodowise
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Forgive me, Asril_Mertos, but I believe that the Bible, though written by human hands, was inspired by the Holy Spirit. Basicly, that means that anything that was true was put into the Bible, while things that were not (the Apocrypha for example) "mysteriously" never appeared because God wanted to make absolutely sure that His Word was 100% correct.
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Asril_Mertos
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frodowise,Sep 21 2007
06:24 PM
Forgive me, Asril_Mertos, but I believe that the Bible, though written by human hands, was inspired by the Holy Spirit. Basicly, that means that anything that was true was put into the Bible, while things that were not (the Apocrypha for example) "mysteriously" never appeared because God wanted to make absolutely sure that His Word was 100% correct.

It's alright. We're all entitled to our own opinions... I believe however that what made it into the bible was done so after a long and arduous selection process by many different church leaders over the course of some many decades... However some scriptures in the Apocrypha have been taken as canon by Church leaders and included in later verions of the bible. (Ex: The Book of Tobit canonized in 1546 by the Council of Trent) And then there's the problem of things possibly being cut out during the translation process...
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frodowise
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You refer to the Catholic church when you speak of the Aprocrypha...as far as I know no other church aknowledges those books as canon. As for mistranslation and whatnot, that is possible...but I do not believe it to be so. Eh, can't prove everything I guess.
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Asril_Mertos
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frodowise,Sep 21 2007
06:35 PM
You refer to the Catholic church when you speak of the Aprocrypha...as far as I know no other church aknowledges those books as canon. As for mistranslation and whatnot, that is possible...but I do not believe it to be so. Eh, can't prove everything I guess.

While I was refering to the Catholic Church The Book of Tobit is also considered canon by the Greek Orthodox Church. I can't say anything about the Protestants. Many scriptures considered canon by the Catholic and Orthodox Church are considered Apocrypha by them... And then there is the fact that early copys of the bible were all hand-written. The ability of the printing press to make mass-produced exact copies of the bible wasn't available till the 1500s or so...
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frodowise
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The Calvinists, at least, do not accept any of the Apocrypha books just FYI.
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Alucard
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frodowise,Sep 21 2007
03:59 PM
Lucifer was once one of God's greatest angels (he was good at one point) but eventually wished to rule on God's throne. He gathered up 1/3 of all the angels of heaven and made war on God (stupid decision).

we may be getting from different sources, because one statement goes that he was selected as the evil being to rule in the empty land beneath earth

in all honesty, if God controls all in his divine plan, then how is there sin at all? Shouldn't pain be nonexistant under the watch of our loving god? Some may say because he gave us free will that there is sin, but on another thought, it does all lead to his final chosen end. If that's the case, then it's likely there would simply have to be a villain and a conflict like in any story. How could it ever be that there isn't simply some being among his children there were merely born to be the conflict, however small the story

perhaps when he gave humans free will, he was also aware of the eventual doom of a being with free will. That beings as they are, "Beings", are doomed to sin

in this, isn't there the slight possibility that maybe Lucifer and all his demons may not in fact be evil as they are, but forsaken beings chosen to go to hell?(after all, how could sony angels, creatures existing in goodness, have gone against god, the one who created them, and become the legions of the underworld?)

in the end, what story would be any good without conflict?(helps me solidify my atheism)
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frodowise
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It's called pride, Alucard. Being sinless means that you don't sin, not that your are incapable of it. God wishes for every last person and angel that serves Him to be there because of their own free choice.
God was indeed aware that man would fall well before He created them. But think on this...if someone forged a destiny for you, one that you could not ever deviate from regardless of your choices, would you not loathe your jailor?
As for people being chosen to burn or live, there is verse in the Bible that fits right into that. It states that "Does not hath the potter power over the clay, to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?" Basicly, God creates us knowing darned well that many will burn forever, but because He is the Creater He has every right to do whatever the heck He wants with His "pots". Because He loves us, however, He is not cruel to us. He simply lets us choose, but knowing full well what we will do, wether right or wrong. He then uses both as is His right. To put that into really simple terms...A man builds his own house. Puts much work and love into carefully crafting this house. He admires it for a second, then walks inside with a 2,000 pound and blows the house to smithereens. He has every right to destroy (or keep) that which he owns, does he not? It's the same way with God.
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lord_lir
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Hmmm.... I'm glad I have sparked such an interesting and lively discussion.

My next topic, naturally, shall be:

"Church Doctrine, Dogma and Interpretation"

Can one Church truly hold the moral high-ground?

Please discuss (but no attacking over beliefs... and also, let's try and also avoid preaching... that's not why I started this thread)

For the record, I am an aethiest... but one who has read and studied many religious texts (including the bible, the koran, the tora, some buddhist scriptures and even a dalliance into bothe the Discordian and Modern Satanic Faiths)... as such, I belive i have a thorough understanding of most religious persuasions, and have learnt not too judge.

I have also read some nietzsche, heidegger, some enlightenment philosophers and Plato's republic. As such, I've been able to apply these ideas to religious writings.

Okay, enough from me. Everyone, please discuss the latest topic, i am officially closing the first.
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frodowise
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By "church" I take it you mean different religions? Not just different denominations?
And uh....what do you mean by the "moral high-ground"?
I'm confused @_@
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Alucard
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frodowise,Sep 22 2007
04:31 PM
It's called pride, Alucard. Being sinless means that you don't sin, not that your are incapable of it. God wishes for every last person and angel that serves Him to be there because of their own free choice.
God was indeed aware that man would fall well before He created them. But think on this...if someone forged a destiny for you, one that you could not ever deviate from regardless of your choices, would you not loathe your jailor?
As for people being chosen to burn or live, there is verse in the Bible that fits right into that. It states that "Does not hath the potter power over the clay, to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?" Basicly, God creates us knowing darned well that many will burn forever, but because He is the Creater He has every right to do whatever the heck He wants with His "pots". Because He loves us, however, He is not cruel to us. He simply lets us choose, but knowing full well what we will do, wether right or wrong. He then uses both as is His right. To put that into really simple terms...A man builds his own house. Puts much work and love into carefully crafting this house. He admires it for a second, then walks inside with a 2,000 pound      and blows the house to smithereens. He has every right to destroy (or keep) that which he owns, does he not? It's the same way with God.

well THAT certainly solidfies it

Atheism is good, because God doesn't want you to think

One more thing: there's no such thing as 100%. There was likely just a bit of doubt running through Jesus' mind - he was only a man.

As for the new topic, one chruch CAN profess their knowledge, which is good, because the simple ideas of virtue that they represent are just as good as any god, but claiming superiority, while not wrong in my eyes as it's simply human nature, is an unprogessive form of religion.

When people think about it, I don't think god ever wanted people to force his beliefs on other people - such an act would mean that there is doubt in God; something an all-powerful being should never suffer

Though there has been at times, a point where one could claim to see doubt in God's teachings(Hmm...)
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lord_lir
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By moral high-ground I refer to one single church, whether it be Christian, Bhuddist, Islamic, etc., declaring that in all spiritual matters (as well as those concerning morality), it is the superior.

As for denominations... tho' "Church" broadly covers Christianity, I was referring to all religions.

However it does range an interesting point, especially when put into the context of warring factions within the Church (examples, include: Protestantism vs catholicism, or Islamic Tribes involved in rac wars... such as the Shi'ites).

As for the Bible... and atheism... I can see Alucard's point: Most modern scholars (including many from the Christian church) agree that the Bible need not be taken on face value... it is more a set of allegories created by the ancient peoples to explain the environment around them. this can be directly related to the Ancient Greek and Roman faiths, each with a pantheon of Dinities that corresponded to the elemental forces of the cosmos (Example; Uranus the ancient Greek god of Wind and Air. And yes, i can see the pun)

I don't know whether jesus is devine or simply human... but I'm not sure that he ever doubted his belief system... as a historical figure, he fought for the freedom of the enslaved Jews, as well as an end to corruption in the Ancient Jewish Synod (not sure if that term is really applicable)

Also, when bringing the different interpretations of the Bible by demoniations into the picture, how can it be possible for one Faith to assert absolute moral "RIGHT"?

Please discuss. (And I'm sorry if I rambled a little)
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