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Opinions On A Debate
Topic Started: Jul 15 2008, 05:33 PM (170 Views)
Kei
【馬鹿】
[ *  * ]
I was on Msn and had a debate with someone i considered a friend until now...which for besides pushing political and controversial topic's upon me...when i stated i really don't want to debate them (This will show otherwise now...)

I went ahead and asked a moderator to give me his opinion on if i should post this or not.
I find my views very strong on what is the truth and what is convenient truth. I also must state I in general do not agree with any current form of Politics and certain governments.
I must also state my views on Humanity or humankind arnt much better.

But I ask for your opinions on the subjects discussed here. I don't mind debates but remember to try and not get personal (Like this guy did) and to try your best to keep the overall discussion/thread clean and respectful.

Btw, I'm Gunner . I admit , I'm not very bright. I do have my view's though.





Quote:
 

[17:02] Joshua: depending on if cloning is legalized by 2020......
[17:03] Gunner: No...i'm not doing clones o o
[17:03] Joshua: If cloning was legal, I'd do it + have a regular kid.
[17:03] Gunner: its wrong.
[17:03] Joshua: just cause it'd be cool for minime.
[17:03] Joshua: Not really.
[17:03] Gunner: Yeah...
[17:03] Joshua: I don't consider cloning wrong.
[17:03] Gunner: I m h o
[17:03] Gunner: Its not natural... and its wrong to have 400 copies
[17:03] Joshua: It's just another way to create life, in my opinion.
[17:03] Gunner: of someone
[17:03] Gunner: running around. no
[17:04] Gunner: You open up cloning
[17:04] Gunner: you open up Pandora
[17:04] Gunner: into the Soldier Genome productions....then you have races between powers
[17:04] Gunner: to create massive genome armies
[17:04] Joshua: I wouldn't do 400 copies. Unless I tried to take over the world - 400 copies of me would be dangerous, extremely dangerous
[17:04] Gunner: of super fighters
[17:04] Joshua: ala star wars
[17:04] Joshua: xD
[17:04] Gunner: my point
[17:04] Gunner: if its there
[17:04] Gunner: they will use it.
[17:04] Gunner: they already did it...
[17:05] Gunner: But it was unlegalized and discontinued
[17:05] Joshua: It's too expensive for large scale.
[17:05] Gunner: due to massive protesting
[17:05] Gunner: against it
[17:05] Gunner: Right
[17:05] Gunner: My ass
[17:05] Gunner: we spend 2billion in Iraq
[17:05] Gunner: they'll find a damn way
[17:05] Gunner: bastards....
[17:05] Joshua: 2 billion is nothing you know. XD
[17:05] Gunner: Its not NOTHING
[17:05] Gunner: 2 billion
[17:05] Joshua: ONE FA-22 RAPTOR is 150 MILLION.
[17:06] Gunner: would send every soldier in Iraq...
[17:06] Gunner: to COLLEGE
[17:06] Gunner: To get an education.
[17:06] Gunner: to learn
[17:06] Joshua: Haha. Far off, there.
[17:06] Gunner: 2 billion
[17:06] Gunner: No...No im not
[17:06] Gunner: that was in an article
[17:06] Gunner: its proven
[17:06] Joshua: a soldier is given an education anyway. Most soldiers are qualified.
[17:06] Gunner: nopes
[17:06] Joshua: Most.
[17:06] Joshua: Not all.
[17:06] Joshua: and it's for specific colleges.
[17:06] Gunner: Soldiers are being denied
[17:06] Gunner: No joke
[17:06] Gunner: they signed up for colleges
[17:06] Gunner: and get nothing
[17:06] Joshua: Again, as it's for SPECIFIC colleges.
[17:07] Gunner: theres soldiers
[17:07] Gunner: literally
[17:07] Gunner: having to get lawyers
[17:07] Joshua: Plus, there are very few who have been denied.
[17:07] Gunner: to try and get there promised education
[17:07] Gunner: no...no...theres alot
[17:07] Gunner: i saw it on cnn i think
[17:07] Gunner: on the news
[17:07] Gunner: they where talking to a shit load of soldiers
[17:07] Gunner: fighting for NOTHING
[17:07] Joshua: Our army alone has 1 Million men in it.

Even if thousands of soldiers were denied, it'd be a small percentage.
[17:08] Joshua: You get paid for what you do in Iraq.
[17:08] Gunner: Because fighting for our country to get an education is a purpose...
[17:08] Gunner: just fighting is nothing
[17:08] Joshua: That alone would be enough to motivate me.
[17:08] Gunner: when you lose the education grant....its worthless
[17:08] Joshua: You think all of them fight for just the fucking grant?
[17:08] Gunner: the smart ones.
[17:09] Joshua: That's ignorant.
[17:09] Gunner: Right.
[17:09] Joshua: There are FAR easier ways to get a grant.
[17:09] Joshua: It's also relatively easy to get a scholarship.
[17:09] Gunner: right...
[17:09] Gunner: and uhm
[17:09] Gunner: did you know the prices are rising?
[17:10] Joshua: actually, the recession is lessening.
[17:10] Joshua: Prices are still rising, of course due to supply and demand.
[17:10] Gunner: recession is not lessening
[17:10] Joshua: Did you know we export bull semen?>
[17:10] Gunner: housing foreclosures?
[17:10] Gunner: have you seen that yet?
[17:10] Joshua: foreclosures are always common.
[17:10] Joshua: XD
[17:10] Gunner: people cant pay there mortgages.
[17:10] Gunner: Not at this rate...
[17:11] Joshua: James, the recession has lessened to a level. By 2013 it will be over.
[17:11] Gunner: the worlds supposedly ending in 2013...
[17:11] Gunner: Mayan Calender...
[17:11] Joshua: 2012, actually.
[17:11] Joshua: and the Mayan calendar thing is idiotic.
[17:11] Gunner: brb
[17:12] Joshua: The world will not end.
[17:12] Joshua: The worst thing that could happen is our poles shifting.
[17:12] Joshua: It would not be the end of the world.
[17:13] Gunner: if the poles shift...
[17:13] Gunner: the polarity is gonna change
[17:13] Gunner: causing everything...
[17:13] Gunner: to fail =p
[17:13] Gunner: because
[17:13] Gunner: its all set
[17:13] Gunner: computer's...
[17:13] Gunner: electronics
[17:13] Joshua: It wouldn't end the world, it'd cause a mass scale of damage though.
[17:13] Gunner: cars
[17:14] Gunner: Thats called... stone age
[17:14] Gunner: =
[17:14] Gunner: end of the world
[17:14] Gunner: there would be mass hysteria....
[17:14] Gunner: poverty
[17:14] Gunner: disease
[17:14] Gunner: starvation
[17:14] Joshua: You really know nothing.
[17:14] Joshua: There would be large scale damage, yes, and it'd take years to repair - but it wouldn't be the end.
[17:15] Joshua: The poles have shifted before, you know.
[17:15] Gunner: Not during the digital age.
[17:15] Gunner: not during the age
[17:15] Joshua: and the odds of them shifting again are extremely low.
[17:15] Gunner: of computers.
[17:15] Gunner: Besides
[17:15] Gunner: it'll end soon
[17:15] Gunner: due to humankind's own destructiveness
[17:16] Joshua: Go ahead and believe the human race will exterminate itself. It won't happen .
[17:16] Gunner: Look at the morality around you
[17:16] Gunner: Billions spent on new weapons
[17:16] Gunner: in order to humanely murder
[17:16] Gunner: other humans
[17:16] Gunner: things such of victims privacy
[17:16] Joshua: Hah, MORALITY? No. That's bullshit religon has caused.
[17:16] Joshua: RELIGION has killed more than any weapon.
[17:16] Gunner: come last to the criminals rights
[17:17] Gunner: although people are suffering
[17:17] Gunner: huge donation are made to protect endangered species
[17:17] Gunner: everyone grows up being told
[17:17] Joshua: James,you don't comprehend how little even a trillion dollars is.
[17:17] Gunner: Be nice to other people
[17:17] Gunner: but beat out the competition
[17:18] Joshua: It's a lot for a civilian, yes, but for a government, it's nothing.
[17:18] Gunner: Oh...its so little..
[17:18] Gunner: how come were in debt?
[17:18] Gunner: Why isn't it gone?
[17:18] Gunner: If its so little...
[17:18] Joshua: We've been in debt for over 30 years.
[17:18] Gunner: why does it take
[17:18] Gunner: years
[17:18] Gunner: My point
[17:18] Joshua: We have massive exports,and to stay ahead in technology we have to spend more.
[17:19] Joshua: and we import quite a bit.
[17:22] Joshua: brb watering garden
[17:24] Gunner: We are falling. Behind.
[17:24] Gunner: actually i wont say "we"
[17:24] Gunner: America. is falling behind.
[17:24] Joshua: Quite off there.
[17:25] Gunner: Tell me what are dollar is worth? hmm? I mean honestly were not gonna play cover our eyes and claim to see the world now. In all thats factual we have fallen behind
[17:25] Joshua: America has the most advanced air force in the world.
[17:25] Joshua: The largest amount of nuclear weapons (aside from russia)
[17:25] Joshua: an extremely advanced navy
[17:25] Gunner: Useless.
[17:25] Joshua: and a relatively large army.
[17:25] Joshua: Technology wise, we are extremely advanced compared to most.
[17:25] Gunner: A relatively underfunded useless army.
[17:26] Gunner: a statement
[17:26] Joshua: Go think your fucking doomsday theories, America's Army is funded relatively well.
[17:26] Gunner: They sent a report to the fucking pentagon...
[17:26] Gunner: saying after Iraq
[17:26] Gunner: it wont be ready for another war
[17:26] Gunner: for 10 years.
[17:26] Gunner: 10...years
[17:27] Gunner: we need to run drives outside walmart
[17:27] Gunner: for supplies
[17:27] Gunner: of daily necessity
[17:27] Gunner: to sent there
[17:27] Gunner: and we are "Well funded"
[17:27] Joshua: that doesn't equal underfunded. lawl.
[17:27] Gunner: thats blind thinking.
[17:27] Gunner: Yes. it is
[17:27] Gunner: the army is to cheeap to pay there soldiers college funds
[17:28] Gunner: there re-using busted fucking armor
[17:28] Joshua: Your blind to the world. You only notice the bad, and over exaggurate everything.
[17:28] Gunner: and Humvee's
[17:28] Gunner: You fucking go into there as a green
[17:28] Gunner: and you get issued a Humvee thats been shot to fuck
[17:28] Joshua: We keep our equipment in the military for years. As with every other country.
[17:28] Gunner: most likely has had dead corpses in it
[17:28] Joshua: Equipment is kept in working order.
[17:28] Gunner: shot up trucks...
[17:29] Gunner: with no armorment to protect it
[17:29] Gunner: its just....Humvee's...
[17:29] Gunner: no armor on them at all
[17:29] Joshua: a humvee can take a fucking mine going off under it.
[17:29] Gunner: No. it cant
[17:29] Gunner: Thats why
[17:29] Gunner: we had to recycle shit
[17:29] Joshua: You have no idea how armored a standard humv is do you?
[17:29] Gunner: to make plating
[17:29] Gunner: on the floor
[17:29] Gunner: I watched the news.
[17:29] Joshua: We recycle metal ..metal = the floor.
[17:29] Gunner: We were making armor for THERE trucks.
[17:30] Gunner: People
[17:30] Gunner: having to buy boots...
[17:30] Gunner: for there sons and daughters there....
[17:30] Gunner: toothpaste...
[17:30] Gunner: deodorant...
[17:30] Gunner: socks....
[17:30] Gunner: shaving and hygienics
[17:30] Gunner: because they cant get
[17:30] Gunner: life's necessities.
[17:30] Gunner: we needed to send bulletproof vests
[17:30] Gunner: armor
[17:30] Joshua: Go ahead with your sadistic views. Deoderent isn't needed to live, it's a bonus. Shaving isn't needed either - it's also a privelidgee.
[17:31] Joshua: What you view as necessities I view as nice perks.
[17:31] Joshua: You have a very narrow point of view. There isn't any point in arguing with you.
[17:32] Gunner: Sadistic because i oppose the blind political crap
[17:32] Gunner: its all bull josh
[17:32] Gunner: in no way
[17:32] Gunner: are we fine and dandy
[17:32] Gunner: happy go lucky
[17:32] Gunner: we ARE in a recession
[17:32] Gunner: we ARE being hurt in Iraq financially
[17:32] Gunner: and military wise.
[17:33] Gunner: we arnt coming out of this smelling like roses
[17:33] Gunner: and yes
[17:33] Joshua: As I have stated, the recession has lessened. And our government, if it needed more troops COULD, and WOULD reinstate the draft.
[17:33] Gunner: deodorant is considered a life's necessity when you get down to it
[17:33] Gunner: as you use it everyday.
[17:33] Joshua: It isn't neccicary to live.
[17:33] Gunner: otherwise you got to your office and your a stinky bastard
[17:33] Gunner: we use it....everyday...
[17:33] Gunner: its considered
[17:33] Gunner: a necessity.
[17:33] Joshua: It doesn't matter if you fucking smell if your fucking fighting turbanheads.
[17:34] Gunner: sure your not gonna fucking bite into it
[17:34] Gunner: its not food
[17:34] Gunner: but yes
[17:34] Joshua: It is NOT a necessity.
[17:34] Gunner: its a necessity
[17:34] Joshua: It is NOT required to live.
[17:34] Gunner: ok
[17:34] Gunner: Toilet paper?
[17:34] Gunner: tell me its not a necessity...
[17:34] Gunner: unless your taking that dead guys shirt off
[17:34] Gunner: and wiping your ass with it...
[17:34] Gunner: Tell me... if you have holes in your boots
[17:34] Joshua: In Iraq I don't think you'd find a fucking toilet if you had to go during combat.
[17:34] Gunner: how far are you going to be marching?
[17:34] Joshua: You can patch holes.
[17:35] Gunner: Think about what you just said
[17:35] Gunner: Patching raggedy boots
[17:35] Gunner: that SHOULD be replaced by the military.
[17:35] Gunner: but arnt.
[17:35] Gunner: We had to buy body armor for them...
[17:35] Gunner: parents where going to the press....because we had to buy them fucking vests
[17:36] Gunner: they arnt suiting them up right
[17:36] Joshua: Those incidents were few, and far between.
[17:36] Gunner: i don't care who the fuck you are...what political shit you belong too. There living beings. not fucking animals
[17:36] Gunner: we don't stick
[17:36] Gunner: sentient
[17:36] Gunner: breathing
[17:36] Gunner: human beings
[17:36] Joshua: When you sign up for the military YOU KNOW what your going into.
[17:36] Joshua: You sign up for the job, you do it. If you don't like it, go fuck yourself.
[17:37] Gunner: Fuck the Military
[17:37] Joshua: You realize the government can force you to fight?
[17:37] Joshua: They can force you in - a draft can always be reinstated.
[17:37] Gunner: let them try...
[17:37] Gunner: Ill be the first to rebel
[17:37] Joshua: PERSONALLY, I think every citizen should be required to serve two years.
[17:37] Gunner: I wouldn't life a gun for these asses
[17:37] Gunner: lift*
[17:37] Joshua: You would be courtmarshalled.
[17:37] Gunner: let them try...
[17:37] Gunner: you think im alone?
[17:38] Joshua: You would go to jail. And be a prisoner of the state.
[17:38] Joshua: This has happened before, and it would happen again.
[17:38] Gunner: How the tables turn for there convenience...
[17:38] Gunner: how they can take the freedoms we so called represent.
[17:38] Gunner: No.
[17:38] Gunner: I wont fight for them.
[17:38] Gunner: This isn't for freedom.
[17:38] Gunner: this is for war.
[17:39] Joshua: Freedom is something you must fight for. If you aren't willing to defend your country then I don't consider you an American.


Freedom deserves to be fought for. Sacrifices have to be made.
[17:39] Gunner: I wont be included in todays political values and cespool of conveint half truths
[17:40] Joshua: I would willingly lay my life down for my country if it came down to it. I don't give a fuck about benefits.
[17:40] Gunner: created by desperate men
[17:40] Gunner: who arnt smart enough to lead there hand to there ass to wipe.
[17:40] Gunner: This ISNT for america ....
[17:40] Gunner: You say " for my country , for america"
[17:40] Gunner: This ISNT for america.
[17:41] Gunner: What the fuck....are we doing...for...america?
[17:41] Joshua: Believe what you want. You have your views, I have mine.
[17:41] Gunner: Were fucking shitting on there steps and saying merry christmas
[17:41] Joshua: I support Iraq and Afghanistan.
[17:41] Gunner: I oppose iraq and now afghanistan becuase there reasoning is shit and they failed to do what they needed to do.
[17:42] Gunner: I support all the soldiers out there on behalf of the soldier. not on behalf of this corrupt and weak minded government.
[17:42] Gunner: I will not allow myself to be blinded by there lies
[17:42] Gunner: At the end of the day
[17:42] Gunner: each person decides his her fate.
[17:43] Gunner: Its an easy choice to fall suit and become the mindless drones yet it isnt much complicated to come to reality and see what is true and what is a conveniant truth
[17:48] Gunner: Btw...just to state...my sources are from marines on current leave and an intelligence officer in an allied armed forces
[17:49] Gunner: We all know how bad the conditions of the armed forces are. its not hard to see.
[17:49] Gunner: nor the economic strife and the current economic heading
[18:19] Joshua: Oh, since you (likely) don't know this, we were in a recession from 2000 to 2003.
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Rark
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MA Oldfag
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I must say, that fellow is one of the stubborn and close minded people I've ever experienced...... well, one of at least.... Sorry to hear that it was a friend that's kinda lost now.
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Dauthi
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GUITAR HEROOOOO.
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Quote:
 
[18:19] Joshua: Oh, since you (likely) don't know this, we were in a recession from 2000 to 2003.


Lol did the convo end on this?

But... wow. Yeah, war tends to boost economies. Great Depression would have gone on forever if it weren't for WWII. Looks like we're headed towards stagflation now though.

I'm siding with you, but the whole argument looks like he said, she said.

lol "It's easy to get a scholarship." Maybe if you're rich and privileged.

It looks like there were several topics argued over here. I'll give it a go.

My personal opinion on cloning is that once it becomes feasible to clone it should be legal but regulated, like a prescription drug. Cloning entire people should be illegal, but cloning organs should be allowed if necessary to save a person's life. People die all the time even if they are matched with an organ donor because they still reject the organ for some reason or another. There is no chance of this if the clone is of your own organ.

Why should cloning entire people be illegal? One easy answer is that making cloning legal would create some very tricky controversies, while keeping cloning illegal will not invite any of that controversy. Beyond the basic ethical and moral issues surrounding cloning oneself, you get into: the rights of the clone, the issue of how to raise a clone, divulging information, a new form of racism/prejudice/fear, etc. If you want to bring in some abortion issues: if it becomes necessary or desired to abort the clone, at what point is the clone considered alive? After all, it is never a fetus or a primal organism. From the minute of its inception you know that it is going to become you.

Bah, "it'd be cool to have a minime." That just pisses me off.

Another reason is that cloning is dangerous. Even if cloning were possible, there could be a lot of hidden ramifications, like steroid usage. Cloning is also highly powerful, with many ways to execute it maliciously. That in itself should allow cloning to be banned.

That said, I doubt you would be able to clone a person for less than 2 billion, forget about 400 of them. Just look at how much we've spent so far in cloning Dolly and in simply sequencing the human genome.

Joshua is right though; 2 billion is nothing in terms of government money. The US budget deficit is something on the level of a few trillion right now.

Very recently (6/30/08) Congress passed a new GI Bill that will pay for 100% of a college education at any public four-year university as long as they have served at least three years in the service since 2001. So yes, all soldiers will have their educations paid for if they wish. I don't know anything about being denied to colleges though, and that seems to be more a private matter than a government problem.

"Our army alone has 1 Million men in it.

Even if thousands of soldiers were denied, it'd be a small percentage."

That's such a fucking cavalier attitude towards the lives of the country he's supposed to love. Anyway.

Not every soldier fights for an education though. A lot of them do choose to because it's their only way out of their life, but just as many enlist because they simply want to. Is it hard to believe that people might just want to join the army? I know I wanted to be in the Marines a few years ago. It was an appealing life.

Also, if you look at the statistics for army enrollment, you'll see that it in fact did surge immediately after 9/11. ROTC enrollment went up >5% and Navy ROTC went up 7%. National pride looks like the obvious culprit.

hahaha foreclosures are always common. Someone evidently hasn't been tuning in to ANY news. Does he even know what Bear Stearns is?

Your conversation sort of derailed from there. I have no idea what the fuck you're talking about with the poles changing. Suffice to say that I don't think the recession will stop by 2013 (who made this prediction anyway? o_O), and neither will the world end, and in the case that the poles do switch-a-roo Apple and Google will go out of business but we'll live.
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Kei
【馬鹿】
[ *  * ]
I smell good reasoning and open minded-ness.
If he would have explained things out as you did Dauthi-san , I probably wouldnt have so strongly opposed things and could have limited the debate on the wider variety of things.

At one point I confided in him with personal matters , so he basically turned it around and now called me basically a doom sayer and at one point a satanist... All becuase I didn't think I wanted to discuss politics (Becuase Its a huge debate) and he always ends up arguing with me anyway. But yeah Especially the cloning , i wouldnt mind replicating organs , by all means do so to save lives. But with full cloning , im sure eventually the technology and resources would become so cheap , that anyone would be able to access the ability to make a clone. Then we go into the the area "What rights does a clone have?"
While I myself would expect for them to be treated as the sentient beings they are and with the same rights as all of us it could bring in other serious topic highlights and Issue's.

Also I dont see them as soldiers first. I See them as living human beings sentient and breathing. Then i See them as family , friends , sons and daughters , fathers and mothers. The way he didn't mind how bad the conditions where...it did sound like he made them expendable... it offends me because I know a Marine that had a kid while he's over in Iraq. I think he comes off tour soon but....hell....Some of them never make it back to see the creation of one of the most beautiful things in the world.

I mentioned the Mayan calender (Thought it would have shut him up) and well the reversed polarity got mentioned somewhere in there. basically I ended up saying that that also would be the end of the world o o.But not like...total obliteration of the human race , no...but it would end the world as we know and love o o.

Thanks for the replies Dauthi-san , Rark-san ^ ^ , I was afraid noone would reply ^ ^'
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