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| FE7 Tiers; Since not many of you visit GFAQs much | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 31 2006, 10:58 PM (522 Views) | |
| WJC | Oct 31 2006, 10:58 PM Post #1 |
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And the topic's not getting much attention there anymore. God Tier: Hector Oswin Athos Raven High Tier: Pent Ninian/Nils Florina Fiora Lyn Sain Kent Eliwood Lucius Priscilla Harken Upper-Middle Tier: Erk Canas Rath Heath Serra Guy Lowen Lower-Middle Tier: Farina Dart Legault Matthew Geitz Bartre Rebecca Wil Hawkeye Low Tier: Marcus Vaida Dorcas Jaffar Karel Louise Wallace Nino Bottom Tier: Renault Isadora Karla Characters within the tiers are roughly ordered(i.e. God Tier is Hector > Oswin > Athos > Raven). Agree, disagree, make suggestions to change the tiers, discuss. |
| Mior, LvL 1 Mage | |
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| Nate | Nov 1 2006, 01:29 AM Post #2 |
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yeah
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Is this assuming that one is going for rank? Because if not, Farina and Dart's placements are ridiculous - the Ocean Seal comes free, and if one really wants Farina they can just sell said Ocean Seal and not use Dart. However, if so, they're crippling financially. I have many other comments, but whether rank matters really will affect them significantly. I can definitely say, however, that Raven is way too high and Legault far too low, no matter what indicator you're using. |
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| Zap | Nov 1 2006, 01:50 AM Post #3 |
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yeah
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O_o Huh... odd as it is, I actually agree with a lot of it. There are a couple problems, but for the most part, it's accurate. The only major problem I can see is that Dart is WAY too low, he should be in High tier, if not the God tier. |
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"I'm sorry, I had to skip English to attend a Sammich class" -Shade Zapper (Sage | Myrm) Arleta Leanna Elena Lexi Sick Darren NOT THAT ANYONE GIVES A FUCK ABOUT THESE ANYMORE :D | |
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| Walliard | Nov 1 2006, 01:51 AM Post #4 |
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nak nak naknak naknaknaknak nak nak
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lol, tiers. |
nak
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| Abyssal_Shrimp | Nov 1 2006, 01:52 AM Post #5 |
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I broke my shades!
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The tiers takes into account both ranking and non-ranking runs. I have a hard time finding a real bad point about Raven. Legault, mehish stats, mehish class, costly promo item, promotes awfully late, can't support to save his life... |
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Kruen, level 20/5 Berserker Xiella, level 20/1 Guardian Fernand, level 5 Knight Aurelia, level 8 Dragonrider Mariann, level 4 Hunter RETIRED Raedul, level 20/20 Paladin Tancred, level 100 Tangrowth | |
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| Spotted Zebra | Nov 1 2006, 02:03 AM Post #6 |
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Feeling spritely.
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Farina, Vaida, and Wallace are far too low. Farina may be a pain to recruit, but generally she's stronger and has better defense than Florina, and a great deal luckier than Fiora. Balance is her strong suit, and because of it, she can easily surpass her sisters. She should be in the high tier. Vaida has the potential to be better than Heath, and even if she doesn't surpass him, she's still a good unit. Her stats aren't all that shabby in the slightest. She deserves the upper-middle tier, IMO. Lastly, have you ever powerleveled Wallace to level 20 in Lyn's story, then compared his stats to Oswin's at the same level? Beats him in nearly everything. Maybe I've just had some really bad Oswins and a really nice Wallace, but if you take the time to level him up before promoting him, Wallace is easily the better of the two generals. It's a pain to level him, but he still should have the high tier. Oswin, Hector, Raven, and Athos are far too high. Oswin's okay, but he's severely lacking in some stats, and Wallace beats him in said stats and most of the others. Oswin ought to be moved down to the upper-middle tier. While Hector's good, his speed and skill caps really cripple him, not too mention his poor resistance. Yeah, he's strong and tanky, but that doesn't help if you can't hit a magician; his skill and speed, even without the caps, are far too much of a gamble when it comes to getting decent amounts of them. This is enough the toss him down on the high tier. Raven is overrated; he's good, but certainly not godly. Yeah, he's got a lot of HP, but the growths that contribute to his ramming of strength/speed caps could have been put to better use elsewhere. Harken can usually beat him in everything but HP, anyway. Raven should go down to the upper-middle tier. I've seen Pents and Erks that are better than Athos. His magic power and beard aren't enough to save him with that awful speed cap. He may be good, but not godly--'sides, you only get him for one chapter, anyway. He should be in the upper-middle tier as well. [/wall of text] |
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"You're not to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who says it or does it." --- Malcolm X. "The AI is not very smart. It makes up for that by cheating." --- Naglfar, on Civilization II: Multiplayer Gold Edition. XD
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ My characters: Naia, level 20/11 Valkyrie | Firenze, level 20/9 Mystic | Lynore, level 16 Nomad Mu Arae, level 17 Pegasus Knight | Mars, level 7 Professor | Gloria, level 11 Fortune-TellerSpot prefers to stat in battles since she usually lacks sufficient time to run them through an RNG. The Mamkutes' profile Skye's profile | |
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| Abyssal_Shrimp | Nov 1 2006, 02:20 AM Post #7 |
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I broke my shades!
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Athos brings Forblaze with him, is free of training and has excellent stats. Wallace... beats Oswin in every stats? 20/0 Wallace : HP 35.6 Str 16.6 Skl 10.2 Spd 6.6 Lck 12.4 Def 17.8 Res 4.8 20/0 Oswin HP 37.9 Str 17.7 Skl 12.3 Spd 8.3 Lck 6.8 Def 19.0 Res 6.3 I see Wallace losing everything but Lck. And their growths makes Oswin beat him out even more after promoting. Add to that that Oswin has better supports options, and joins early while Wallace will rejoin later and actually requires you to powerlevel him in Lyn's story if he's to be of any use at all, and he also requires you to hold off on your lords and not train them too much so you can get his chapter instead of Geitz's. I don't care for both Vaida and Heath, so I won't double check that. Farina doesn't even exist on half of the games mode, is useless in ranking games and costs a whopping 20,000 gold regardless where Florina/Fiora does her job only a bit less well, can be fully supported that the time she joins and doesn't need to be babysit for a while she they don't come underlevelled. Raven... what's his drawbacks, already? I don't seem to remember any. Saying "he could have been better" doesn't mean he isn't already awesome, and Harken doesn't beat him in HP, Str, Skl and Spd, and those are rather significant stats. Plus, supports and such where Raven laughs at Harken. Hector doesn't have problems hitting after the first few chapters, and his only real weakness is mages, which he can probably OHKO before they can even have a chance at hurting him. Add the Wolf Beil, awesome supports (Eliwood, Oswin, Florina, Lyn gives crappy bonuses but is there too anywau), and... nah, no significant drawbacks. |
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Kruen, level 20/5 Berserker Xiella, level 20/1 Guardian Fernand, level 5 Knight Aurelia, level 8 Dragonrider Mariann, level 4 Hunter RETIRED Raedul, level 20/20 Paladin Tancred, level 100 Tangrowth | |
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| Shire Guardian | Nov 1 2006, 02:31 AM Post #8 |
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Tink a link
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Looking at it, I think I'd like to see Eliwood above Kent, possibly Sain. With kent, I think Eliwood quite handily beats him statwise, and has far superior supports. He faces Sain's higher attack, but I still think his supports (and possibly his PRFs) make up for it. What say you to bumping him up ahead of those 2? |
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Actively Battling: Pengael lvl 20/17 Sniper Angel lvl 20/10 Mage Knight Noah lvl 16 Monk Azul lvl 10 Shaman Liere lvl 20/6 Crusader Ciel lvl 1 Corsair Retired: Hithlum lvl 20/20 Falcoknight Cyril lvl 20/20 Sage Vince lvl 20/20 Paladin Chiback lvl 20/20 Hero I accept PM challenges! ^_^ BAH! | |
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| Abyssal_Shrimp | Nov 1 2006, 02:37 AM Post #9 |
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I broke my shades!
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Meh, Eliwood's probaby higher than Lyn too. The tiers themselves aren't ordered, so that's subject to change. I do agree though. I'd probably put him near the top of high tier. |
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Kruen, level 20/5 Berserker Xiella, level 20/1 Guardian Fernand, level 5 Knight Aurelia, level 8 Dragonrider Mariann, level 4 Hunter RETIRED Raedul, level 20/20 Paladin Tancred, level 100 Tangrowth | |
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| Shire Guardian | Nov 1 2006, 02:45 AM Post #10 |
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Tink a link
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I knew some ordering had taken place, I just wasn't sure how much. Against Lyn.....I think I could possibly see that. Lyn I think clearly has the lead in offense (good offensive supports and a whopping 7 point lead in AS), Eliwood probably has the durability lead. Lemme look at supports. Lyn with A Florina/B Rath is getting 86 Avoid, has 42 HP, and 13 Defense. Eliwood with A Hector/B Ninian has 89 Avoid, 48 HP, and 21 Defense. Also has better control over the triangle, but Lyn can avoid it altogether if she wants. Yep, clear win for Eliwood. Now, the validity of these support setups may be called into question, and the biggest issue is whose leads are more important- Eliwood's defensive leads or Lyn's offensive leads? Also what needs to be considered is Lyn's level when she joins. I would say somewhere in the area of 8, based on my playing experiences. What level is Eliwood going to be when he and Lyn meet back up? |
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Actively Battling: Pengael lvl 20/17 Sniper Angel lvl 20/10 Mage Knight Noah lvl 16 Monk Azul lvl 10 Shaman Liere lvl 20/6 Crusader Ciel lvl 1 Corsair Retired: Hithlum lvl 20/20 Falcoknight Cyril lvl 20/20 Sage Vince lvl 20/20 Paladin Chiback lvl 20/20 Hero I accept PM challenges! ^_^ BAH! | |
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| Abyssal_Shrimp | Nov 1 2006, 02:49 AM Post #11 |
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I broke my shades!
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Around the same. I'll add that Eliwood has lances to augment his offense capabilities, and that Eliwood's speed is enough so he can double most everything past a few chapters in the beginning, rendering that 7 AS lead much less useful than what it seems to be ; and since Eliwood deals more damage in a single hit, Lyn's offense isn't really all that stronger than Eliwood, and the Defense's already established as clearly superior. Lyn doesn't stand to Eliwood. |
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Kruen, level 20/5 Berserker Xiella, level 20/1 Guardian Fernand, level 5 Knight Aurelia, level 8 Dragonrider Mariann, level 4 Hunter RETIRED Raedul, level 20/20 Paladin Tancred, level 100 Tangrowth | |
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| Shire Guardian | Nov 1 2006, 02:51 AM Post #12 |
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Tink a link
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Out of curosity, does anyone have the AS's of later game randoms? Like you said, Lyn's AS lead may not be as significant as it sounds, but I do want to know how significant it is. And what do you think of either Lyn or Eliwood and their placement with regards to Florina and Fiora's placement? |
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Actively Battling: Pengael lvl 20/17 Sniper Angel lvl 20/10 Mage Knight Noah lvl 16 Monk Azul lvl 10 Shaman Liere lvl 20/6 Crusader Ciel lvl 1 Corsair Retired: Hithlum lvl 20/20 Falcoknight Cyril lvl 20/20 Sage Vince lvl 20/20 Paladin Chiback lvl 20/20 Hero I accept PM challenges! ^_^ BAH! | |
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| Bears | Nov 1 2006, 02:54 AM Post #13 |
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I'd personally like to see Geitz switch places with Rath, Serra, or Lowen, but I can't be bothered to come up with any arguments right now. |
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4:24 PM - John Ѯzzingford: "Alternate Universes". 4:24 PM - John Ѯzzingford: Taking an existing set of characters, and putting them in an altogether different setting. 4:25 PM - John Ѯzzingford: For example, you could take the cast of the Mario games, and set them up in some kind of detective-versus-cannibal-mastermind drama. | |
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| Abyssal_Shrimp | Nov 1 2006, 02:54 AM Post #14 |
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I broke my shades!
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Not sure about the randoms, someone else might have them. As for Flo and Fiora, well they're rather close to Lyn, really. Florina's stats are built similarly to Lyn's but with less HP has Lances which give her more attack and is a flier, giving her versatility, however, she's got that CON issue which can cripple her speed. In the end, they're rather close, methinks. And Fiora's probably tied to Florina when it comes to stats, so all three are really near to each other. I'd need to compare actual averages, but it's late and I don't feel like it. >_> |
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Kruen, level 20/5 Berserker Xiella, level 20/1 Guardian Fernand, level 5 Knight Aurelia, level 8 Dragonrider Mariann, level 4 Hunter RETIRED Raedul, level 20/20 Paladin Tancred, level 100 Tangrowth | |
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| Shire Guardian | Nov 1 2006, 02:57 AM Post #15 |
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Tink a link
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An argument to get Geitz up in Upper-Middle? I would like to see that when you get the time Squid. |
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Actively Battling: Pengael lvl 20/17 Sniper Angel lvl 20/10 Mage Knight Noah lvl 16 Monk Azul lvl 10 Shaman Liere lvl 20/6 Crusader Ciel lvl 1 Corsair Retired: Hithlum lvl 20/20 Falcoknight Cyril lvl 20/20 Sage Vince lvl 20/20 Paladin Chiback lvl 20/20 Hero I accept PM challenges! ^_^ BAH! | |
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| Crimmy | Nov 1 2006, 03:02 AM Post #16 |
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sausages, nanako
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Raven is DEFINATLY too high. He's more of a mid-tier. |
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Matthias, Level 17 Nomad Fina, Level 9 Soldier Ulrich, Level 1 Knight | |
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| Abyssal_Shrimp | Nov 1 2006, 03:03 AM Post #17 |
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I broke my shades!
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Wait, I find Rath and Heath to be a bit high there. They have good stats, but they both rejoin rather late for their starting level, being 7/0 for Heath and betweem 7/0 and 10/0 for Rath. And Rath has bowsuntil he promotes, which isn't exactly a good weapon type. Lowen's good where he is. I'll need to get around comparing Lowen and Kent one of these days, I'm inclined to think he isn't that worse than him. |
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Kruen, level 20/5 Berserker Xiella, level 20/1 Guardian Fernand, level 5 Knight Aurelia, level 8 Dragonrider Mariann, level 4 Hunter RETIRED Raedul, level 20/20 Paladin Tancred, level 100 Tangrowth | |
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| Abyssal_Shrimp | Nov 1 2006, 03:04 AM Post #18 |
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I broke my shades!
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*revives kitten* Almost everybody who said Raven was too high didn't provide arguments for it. |
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Kruen, level 20/5 Berserker Xiella, level 20/1 Guardian Fernand, level 5 Knight Aurelia, level 8 Dragonrider Mariann, level 4 Hunter RETIRED Raedul, level 20/20 Paladin Tancred, level 100 Tangrowth | |
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| Crimmy | Nov 1 2006, 03:04 AM Post #19 |
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sausages, nanako
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As said before, Dart is a little low. |
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Matthias, Level 17 Nomad Fina, Level 9 Soldier Ulrich, Level 1 Knight | |
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| Crimmy | Nov 1 2006, 03:05 AM Post #20 |
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sausages, nanako
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*Revies Kitty* I don't have the time for a debate at the moment. |
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Matthias, Level 17 Nomad Fina, Level 9 Soldier Ulrich, Level 1 Knight | |
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| Abyssal_Shrimp | Nov 1 2006, 03:09 AM Post #21 |
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I broke my shades!
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As for Dart, I guess I could see him to upper-middle tier. But not higher than that, considering his uselessness in ranking runs, and his lacks of good supports (Karel, Farina and Geitz are meh, and the snipers are very average), and his coming a wee bit underleveled. |
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Kruen, level 20/5 Berserker Xiella, level 20/1 Guardian Fernand, level 5 Knight Aurelia, level 8 Dragonrider Mariann, level 4 Hunter RETIRED Raedul, level 20/20 Paladin Tancred, level 100 Tangrowth | |
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| Shire Guardian | Nov 1 2006, 03:10 AM Post #22 |
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Tink a link
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Here are some stats I pulled up regarding Lyn/Florina/Fiora. Lyn: HP: 42 MT: 19 Hit: 67 Crit: 14 AS: 28 Avoid: 79 Def: 12 Res: 15 Florina: HP: 42 MT: 20 Hit: 58 Crit: 11 AS: 26 Avoid: 76 Def: 11 Res: 18 Fiora: HP: 45 MT: 19 Hit: 57 Crit: 12 AS: 26 Avoid: 66 Def: 14 Res: 23 With Supports: Lyn A Florina/B Rath: HP: 42 MT: 23 Hit: 92 Crit: 39 AS: 28 Avoid: 86 Def: 13 Res: 16 Florina A Lyn/ B Hector: HP: 42 MT: 24 Hit: 80 Crit: 36 AS: 26 Avoid: 83 Def: 14 Res: 21 Fiora A Kent/ B Eliwood: HP: 45 MT: 24 Hit: 71 Crit: 26 AS: 26 Avoid: 80 Def: 16 Res: 25 Again, the validity of these supports can be called into question if anyone has a problem with them. Also remember Florina and Fiora will be losing AS if they go to Lances to give them an offensive edge, and will lose avoid by doing so as well. |
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Actively Battling: Pengael lvl 20/17 Sniper Angel lvl 20/10 Mage Knight Noah lvl 16 Monk Azul lvl 10 Shaman Liere lvl 20/6 Crusader Ciel lvl 1 Corsair Retired: Hithlum lvl 20/20 Falcoknight Cyril lvl 20/20 Sage Vince lvl 20/20 Paladin Chiback lvl 20/20 Hero I accept PM challenges! ^_^ BAH! | |
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| Abyssal_Shrimp | Nov 1 2006, 03:15 AM Post #23 |
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I broke my shades!
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Yeah, pretty even. |
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Kruen, level 20/5 Berserker Xiella, level 20/1 Guardian Fernand, level 5 Knight Aurelia, level 8 Dragonrider Mariann, level 4 Hunter RETIRED Raedul, level 20/20 Paladin Tancred, level 100 Tangrowth | |
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| KJ456 | Nov 1 2006, 11:24 AM Post #24 |
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Ahahahaha- *snort* -hahahaha- *snort* -heheheh
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Taking one look at it, Lowen needs to be higher. Way higher. While one might (quite reasonably) argue that Wallace and Oswin are better in both offense and defense, and that Kent/Sain are far better offensively, they're really comparing characters of two entirely different roles, IMO. While, base-wise, all three are fairly similar (though Lowen's bases are the best of the bunch), once growths kick in, Lowen's uniqueness shines. With his lackluster offense paired with his massive HP, high HP, reasonable resistance and mounted movement, he can move ahead of your army without slowing it down, take on a considerably larger enemy force than the other paladins and survive, and, which is often considered a bad thing, fail to take down the majority of it. I say it's a good thing in his case, however, seeing as it means he won't hog exp (while still getting decent amount from the sheer amount of encounters he'll experience), which means that the enemy will both be weakened for your other units to pick off, and that he can be kept in front for as long as his HP allows without severely weakening your army. Unless anyone can argue that another character fills that role better than him, or that you'd be better off without a character in said role, I say he should be somewhat higher up. I'd also argue in favor of Vaida, and maybe even argue that Nino>Erk based solely on the existence of Pent, Canas and Lucius, but I can't be bothered right now. <_< |
![]() Do not click. Do, however, click these at your leisure ('specially for stats): Gero, Terra, Tic, Nys'elni and Murphy. ![]() Banner by Shade. Challenges open if I'm around, though you'd better be prepared to stat, 'cause I'm lazy. My theme, according to the Mooney one. | |
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| iammax | Nov 1 2006, 11:33 AM Post #25 |
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I don't take any FE7 Tier seriously. An arguement can be made for everyone to be on a different tier. |
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| Silly Tee | Nov 1 2006, 11:34 AM Post #26 |
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It's his eyebrows. They're hypnotic, I swear.
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*mutters something about how much Athos sucks* I don´t see why Sain´s so high. His only good stat, but correct me if I´m wrong, I only used him once, is Str. And he lacks alot skill point which makes hitting hard unless you use Leight weapons ![]() Can´t think of anything for the others *bounces off* |
![]() all hail to the Fishy one :D | |
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| iammax | Nov 1 2006, 12:04 PM Post #27 |
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I don't see why Pent's so high either. He comes late, he doesn't have THAT much better stats then Erk, is stuck with an A support with a crappy character, and if you're going to use someone that comes late, you might as well use Nino, because she's better... |
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| KJ456 | Nov 1 2006, 12:06 PM Post #28 |
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Ahahahaha- *snort* -hahahaha- *snort* -heheheh
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His bases are notably better than Erk's, he has an auto-A in staves and has a forced support Erk wishes he had. |
![]() Do not click. Do, however, click these at your leisure ('specially for stats): Gero, Terra, Tic, Nys'elni and Murphy. ![]() Banner by Shade. Challenges open if I'm around, though you'd better be prepared to stat, 'cause I'm lazy. My theme, according to the Mooney one. | |
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| iammax | Nov 1 2006, 12:08 PM Post #29 |
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With Louse? When you have Rath, Wil, and Rebecca, when they're all much better? Pff. Like I said, I don't take any tier |
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| Silly Tee | Nov 1 2006, 12:14 PM Post #30 |
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It's his eyebrows. They're hypnotic, I swear.
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>_> mmmmmmmmmmmmmm....ErkxLouise.... uhm YOU DIDN`T SEE ANYTHING! *ninja poofs* |
![]() all hail to the Fishy one :D | |
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| Serene Steelzard | Nov 1 2006, 12:29 PM Post #31 |
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... uh-huh.
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Canas should be in the bottom tier-*is shot* Honestly, I dont care about tiers. I use the characters I like; in stats, personality or whatever. It is strange, however, that most of the characters I use are high up on that tier list. I think the only exceptions are Becca and Matthew... |
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| KJ456 | Nov 1 2006, 02:36 PM Post #32 |
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Ahahahaha- *snort* -hahahaha- *snort* -heheheh
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Not what I meant. Look at Erk's support list. <_< |
![]() Do not click. Do, however, click these at your leisure ('specially for stats): Gero, Terra, Tic, Nys'elni and Murphy. ![]() Banner by Shade. Challenges open if I'm around, though you'd better be prepared to stat, 'cause I'm lazy. My theme, according to the Mooney one. | |
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| Abyssal_Shrimp | Nov 1 2006, 03:49 PM Post #33 |
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I broke my shades!
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*sighs* Better stats than Erk, A in staves, free of training. His auto A support ain't that awesome, but Erk's support list sucks anyway, so it's pretty much moot. And Nino ain't better than Pent, what do you not understand in "free of training"? Pent might come a bit late, but he's already trained and his stats are better than Erk, and Nino comes so ridiculously underleveled it's not funny. |
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Kruen, level 20/5 Berserker Xiella, level 20/1 Guardian Fernand, level 5 Knight Aurelia, level 8 Dragonrider Mariann, level 4 Hunter RETIRED Raedul, level 20/20 Paladin Tancred, level 100 Tangrowth | |
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| Bears | Nov 1 2006, 04:39 PM Post #34 |
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Hmm, here's my argument for Geitz and Rath switching places: We'll assume Rath gets two levels per map in the main game, and you leveled him up to 9 in Lyn's mode. That would bring him to level 15 by the time you hit Geitz's chapter if you get Genesis. 15/0 Rath: HP: 31.4 Str: 12.0 Skl: 12.2 Spd: 14.0 Lck: 7.4 Def: 7.8 Res: 4.0 Con: 7 ??/3 Geitz: HP: 40 Str: 17 Skl: 12 Spd: 13 Lck: 10 Def: 11 Res: 3 Con: 13 Geitz is clearly the winner here; comes later, though he's not underleveled, and while his bases aren't incredible, they're good enough. He also starts off with that nice B rank in bows and enough Con to use any of them, which coupled with axes, gives him the superior weapon selection, axes > swords, and he isn't forced to use bows prepromotion. Rath will exceed Geitz in stats later on, but again, joins underleveled, is restricted to only attacking at range 2, and to further complicate his underleveled-ness, is overleveled in Lyn's story. |
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4:24 PM - John Ѯzzingford: "Alternate Universes". 4:24 PM - John Ѯzzingford: Taking an existing set of characters, and putting them in an altogether different setting. 4:25 PM - John Ѯzzingford: For example, you could take the cast of the Mario games, and set them up in some kind of detective-versus-cannibal-mastermind drama. | |
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| Zap | Nov 1 2006, 04:45 PM Post #35 |
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yeah
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Surprisingly enough, I'm not gonna say Canas should be in the bottom tier. Luna DOES redeem him somewhat, and he's probably a handy addition to have in a ratings game when your characters are gonna be signifigantly weaker and/or not have the same badass weapons. I'm not saying he's the god most seem to think he is, because without Luna, he's slightly worse than Erk stat-wise, and Erk has the advantage of being the magic user (other than Serra, who doesn't exactly count for these purposes) with the most time spent in the party, so he's pretty easy to train. I'm not arguing in favor of Erk, either, so don't go off on me for that. Heath/Vaida... eh, I'm not a huge fan of either, but if I had to pick one, I'd go with Vaida. She comes pre-trained, so I don't have to worry about giving her any experience. KJ's arguement for Lowen... I gotta admit, it makes sense. Yes, I'm agreeing with KJ. Whoamg we're all gonna dai. I've made similar arguements for why Renault isn't TOTALLY useless in the past (not saying he should be higher, since other than weakening enemies for the Lords to kill, he's crappy), so I have to admit, KJ's got a point. |
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"I'm sorry, I had to skip English to attend a Sammich class" -Shade Zapper (Sage | Myrm) Arleta Leanna Elena Lexi Sick Darren NOT THAT ANYONE GIVES A FUCK ABOUT THESE ANYMORE :D | |
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| Shire Guardian | Nov 1 2006, 04:54 PM Post #36 |
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Tink a link
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First, I wouldnt necessarily say Pent's stats are better than Erk's, and I give Erk bonus points for being an active contributor to the party for a much longer time than Pent, but I think Pent should still keep his place in High Tier. I would like to see him maybe drop a few spots. With regards to Lowen, the thing is his "role" isn't really required. It's more of a balanced role. Although he can weaken enemies for others to finish off, he probably isn't doing much damage, what with low MT, Hit, and AS (for maybe not even doubling). While he has far greater move than, say Oswin, and better defense than the other Paladins, his complete offensive failures do not make up for this. Lowen is, offensively, one of the worst characters in the game. He does have a good defense, and the weapon triangle control does help, but I don't see him going ANY higher than the bottom two spaces of Upper-Middle. |
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Actively Battling: Pengael lvl 20/17 Sniper Angel lvl 20/10 Mage Knight Noah lvl 16 Monk Azul lvl 10 Shaman Liere lvl 20/6 Crusader Ciel lvl 1 Corsair Retired: Hithlum lvl 20/20 Falcoknight Cyril lvl 20/20 Sage Vince lvl 20/20 Paladin Chiback lvl 20/20 Hero I accept PM challenges! ^_^ BAH! | |
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| SabreCut | Nov 1 2006, 05:52 PM Post #37 |
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Don't worry guys, I got a good price for selling you out
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There is absolutely no way Raven should be that high. Let's have a look at his stat averages at 20/20. HP: 58 Def: 16 Str: 25 MDf: 7 Skl: 27 Luc: 14 Spd: 26 Not bad at all; however, look at Harken's: HP: 46 Def: 19 Str: 25 MDf: 13 Skl: 23 Luc: 13 Spd: 21 Whilst Raven has a big advantage in HP and a moderate one is speed and skill, Harken's defensive stats are higher and his luck is only one point under. From stat bonuses, Raven looks better. However, these are averages, and like most characters, Raven can be screwed over badly and needs to be trained up to be a hero. On the other hand, Harken is virtually RNG proof and comes already leveled and with good stats, and with a Brave Sword (and, like Raven, HHM bonuses). Another point is that Raven can't make the most of his class; he cannot wield a Steel Sword or any Axe witout AS loss unless he has a Body Ring. Harken can though (on the point of ranking playthroughs too, Harken saves you the funds of a Hero Crest, as little use as this point is.) Raven doesn't deserve to be a god tier character. He's good, but not that good. Low down in the high tier at best. |
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My theme, picked by Bugmeat Stuff about me? Well, if you really want to know... Unpromoted Characters Promoted Characters Retired Characters ![]() ![]() ![]() (Avatar picture was not drawn by me. obviously) | |
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| Abyssal_Shrimp | Nov 1 2006, 06:01 PM Post #38 |
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I broke my shades!
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Raven possibly being screwed is pretty much moot as he has an equal chance to being blessed. I notice the issues of supports has been ignored here, by the time Harken joins, Raven may very well have hit A Lucius, which gives him 3 Def/Res, effectively cancelling Harken's Def lead. Let's add to that that before 20/20, Raven's stat leads over Harken are even bigger, as before he caps Str and Spd, he has an impressive lead in those stats and that most of the game is played before your characters reach 20/20. As for the CON point, that's irrelevant, because Raven's gonna be faster than Harken by a good 4 AS or so regardless of what weapon they wield. |
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Kruen, level 20/5 Berserker Xiella, level 20/1 Guardian Fernand, level 5 Knight Aurelia, level 8 Dragonrider Mariann, level 4 Hunter RETIRED Raedul, level 20/20 Paladin Tancred, level 100 Tangrowth | |
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| iammax | Nov 1 2006, 06:07 PM Post #39 |
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I'd rather have 5 average supports then 3 crappy ones and 2 good ones. Anyway, I don't think Pent should be higher then Erk, but they should be on the same tier. Definently the same tier. And chuck Raven down one. |
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| Abyssal_Shrimp | Nov 1 2006, 06:12 PM Post #40 |
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I broke my shades!
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5 "average" supports? Sorry, but no. Serra and Nino supports are outright bad, Prissy doesn't want to support Erk, Louise is bad, Pent is average. 1 average and 4 bad, while Pent's got Canas that's good, Erk and Fiora being average, and Hawkeye being bad. And Louise isn't all that awesome, but it's free. >_> |
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Kruen, level 20/5 Berserker Xiella, level 20/1 Guardian Fernand, level 5 Knight Aurelia, level 8 Dragonrider Mariann, level 4 Hunter RETIRED Raedul, level 20/20 Paladin Tancred, level 100 Tangrowth | |
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| SabreCut | Nov 1 2006, 06:33 PM Post #41 |
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Don't worry guys, I got a good price for selling you out
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I completely forgot about supports. Curses >_< You're right about the blessing point, but my point was that Harken was RNG proof compared to Raven who can be RNG-screwed. Thoug I suppose that can happen to any other unpromoted character too. On the point of CON, I wouldn't exactly say 21 speed is slow anyway seeing the enemies in FE7. And his CON increase does help him over Raven. I do think Raven is a good character just not anywhere near good enough to be in a god tier. Also, max; seing as you can only get 2 supports (so that make any difference to stats at all), why would 5 average ones be better? |
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My theme, picked by Bugmeat Stuff about me? Well, if you really want to know... Unpromoted Characters Promoted Characters Retired Characters ![]() ![]() ![]() (Avatar picture was not drawn by me. obviously) | |
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| Shire Guardian | Nov 1 2006, 06:38 PM Post #42 |
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Tink a link
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Priscilla certainly doesn't mind supporting Erk. I think the issue usually brought up is Erk may not be getting both his Pent and Priscilla support, because some people say 3 anima users is too much. |
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Actively Battling: Pengael lvl 20/17 Sniper Angel lvl 20/10 Mage Knight Noah lvl 16 Monk Azul lvl 10 Shaman Liere lvl 20/6 Crusader Ciel lvl 1 Corsair Retired: Hithlum lvl 20/20 Falcoknight Cyril lvl 20/20 Sage Vince lvl 20/20 Paladin Chiback lvl 20/20 Hero I accept PM challenges! ^_^ BAH! | |
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| Abyssal_Shrimp | Nov 1 2006, 06:39 PM Post #43 |
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I broke my shades!
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Prissy's gonna get Lucius, Oswin, Sain, Raven or Guy before she can get Erk. Being 6th on a priorities list when a person'll get 3 different supports at best = not good. |
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Kruen, level 20/5 Berserker Xiella, level 20/1 Guardian Fernand, level 5 Knight Aurelia, level 8 Dragonrider Mariann, level 4 Hunter RETIRED Raedul, level 20/20 Paladin Tancred, level 100 Tangrowth | |
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| Abyssal_Shrimp | Nov 1 2006, 06:42 PM Post #44 |
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I broke my shades!
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*revives kitty* I'm gonna get around doing a comparison between Hector/Oswin and Raven one of these days. |
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Kruen, level 20/5 Berserker Xiella, level 20/1 Guardian Fernand, level 5 Knight Aurelia, level 8 Dragonrider Mariann, level 4 Hunter RETIRED Raedul, level 20/20 Paladin Tancred, level 100 Tangrowth | |
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| Bears | Nov 1 2006, 06:44 PM Post #45 |
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On Hector's modes, I'd say Raven is comparable to Eliwood, myself. I think WJC actually posted something to that extent on the FEGB. |
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4:24 PM - John Ѯzzingford: "Alternate Universes". 4:24 PM - John Ѯzzingford: Taking an existing set of characters, and putting them in an altogether different setting. 4:25 PM - John Ѯzzingford: For example, you could take the cast of the Mario games, and set them up in some kind of detective-versus-cannibal-mastermind drama. | |
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| Abyssal_Shrimp | Nov 1 2006, 06:46 PM Post #46 |
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I broke my shades!
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Meh, I'm inclined to say Raven > Eliwood, by a little. |
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Kruen, level 20/5 Berserker Xiella, level 20/1 Guardian Fernand, level 5 Knight Aurelia, level 8 Dragonrider Mariann, level 4 Hunter RETIRED Raedul, level 20/20 Paladin Tancred, level 100 Tangrowth | |
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| Shire Guardian | Nov 1 2006, 06:51 PM Post #47 |
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Tink a link
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I think better early game offense gives Raven the edge over Eliwood. |
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Actively Battling: Pengael lvl 20/17 Sniper Angel lvl 20/10 Mage Knight Noah lvl 16 Monk Azul lvl 10 Shaman Liere lvl 20/6 Crusader Ciel lvl 1 Corsair Retired: Hithlum lvl 20/20 Falcoknight Cyril lvl 20/20 Sage Vince lvl 20/20 Paladin Chiback lvl 20/20 Hero I accept PM challenges! ^_^ BAH! | |
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| Abyssal_Shrimp | Nov 1 2006, 06:56 PM Post #48 |
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I broke my shades!
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Uh-uh, that, and promoting earlier too. |
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Kruen, level 20/5 Berserker Xiella, level 20/1 Guardian Fernand, level 5 Knight Aurelia, level 8 Dragonrider Mariann, level 4 Hunter RETIRED Raedul, level 20/20 Paladin Tancred, level 100 Tangrowth | |
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| User33 | Nov 1 2006, 08:09 PM Post #49 |
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Meh. Franz.
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I think that these are supposed to be HHM rankings. Which is why Raven is so high. +2 or +3 increase in every stat is amazing. Give him a body ring and he's set. |
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| Mario123v2 | Nov 1 2006, 08:44 PM Post #50 |
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Deep South Commando
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The original topic was, in fact, HHM ranked. Which makes Raven absolutely godly. |
You, sir, win. | |
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| Shire Guardian | Nov 1 2006, 08:50 PM Post #51 |
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Tink a link
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I'm pretty sure these tiers actually do not take HHM into account, and there is a seperate tier list for HHM. |
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Actively Battling: Pengael lvl 20/17 Sniper Angel lvl 20/10 Mage Knight Noah lvl 16 Monk Azul lvl 10 Shaman Liere lvl 20/6 Crusader Ciel lvl 1 Corsair Retired: Hithlum lvl 20/20 Falcoknight Cyril lvl 20/20 Sage Vince lvl 20/20 Paladin Chiback lvl 20/20 Hero I accept PM challenges! ^_^ BAH! | |
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| Bears | Nov 1 2006, 09:06 PM Post #52 |
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Well, for HHM, Geitz should undoubtably move up a rank. Also, what about my arguments for switching Rath and Geitz? |
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4:24 PM - John Ѯzzingford: "Alternate Universes". 4:24 PM - John Ѯzzingford: Taking an existing set of characters, and putting them in an altogether different setting. 4:25 PM - John Ѯzzingford: For example, you could take the cast of the Mario games, and set them up in some kind of detective-versus-cannibal-mastermind drama. | |
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| User33 | Nov 1 2006, 09:14 PM Post #53 |
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Meh. Franz.
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God Tier: Hector Oswin Athos Raven High Tier: Pent Ninian/Nils Florina Fiora Lyn Sain Eliwood Lucius Priscilla Kent Harken Upper-Middle Tier: Erk Canas Rath Heath Serra Guy Farina Dart Lower-Middle Tier: Lowen Legault Matthew Bartre Geitz Rebecca Wil Hawkeye Low Tier: Marcus Vaida Dorcas Jaffar Karel Louise Wallace Bottom Tier: Renault Nino Isadora Karla Here's the updated list that most of GFAQS agrees on. |
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| Bears | Nov 1 2006, 09:26 PM Post #54 |
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Well, yes, but *points at his arguments for Geitz going up* Any rebuttals or the like? |
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4:24 PM - John Ѯzzingford: "Alternate Universes". 4:24 PM - John Ѯzzingford: Taking an existing set of characters, and putting them in an altogether different setting. 4:25 PM - John Ѯzzingford: For example, you could take the cast of the Mario games, and set them up in some kind of detective-versus-cannibal-mastermind drama. | |
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| WJC | Nov 1 2006, 09:34 PM Post #55 |
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Whoa, this got lots of replies really fast. So I'll have lots to say. Keep in mind that very extensive debate was done over this on GFAQs, so almost every unit's position has developed an established defense, and I'm mostly just repeating that.
Both ranked and nonranked games are considered. If only ranking play was considered Dart and Farina would be Bottom. Their price tag hurts them badly even when not considering the Rankings. Dart’s Ocean Seal sells for 25K, enough to buy 20 or so Silver Weapons in CoD’s shops. Multiple units with middling Str, if given Silver Weapons, can compete with Iron Axe Dart in raw Dmg and multiple other units surpass him easily. If you take away his massive Str, all he really has left is high Hp and decent AS, and considering that his Supports are mediocre, he has a bad class, he’s weak when he joins and most of his other stats suck, that’s really not enough to make a good character.
Florina and Fiora should be promoted when Farina joins, and either one promoted is plenty stronger than Farina at her base LvL. They’ll also have Supports, making Farina even weaker by comparison, and they don’t cost 20K. Farina’s better in raw stats once she catches up in Levels, but it’s still debatable after considering Supports, and the 20K is a huge strike against her(in Ranking play she rapes your Funds, in non-ranking that’s still enough cash to buy lots of expensive equipment).
At Vaida’s base LvL, Heath is ahead of her in every stat except, uh, Def and Con. His Spd advantage alone defeats Vaida’s Def lead, before we even consider all his other advantages. And his growths are better, so the gap only gets bigger as they gain more Levels.
Huh? 20/1 Oswin beats 20/1 Wallace in every single stat except Luck, Ozzy should be promoted by the time Wallace rejoins, and it’s impossible to get Wallace to 20/0 in LHM without Lundgren Abuse. I mean, you have to withhold Exp from your Lords just to recruit Wallace in the first place, I don’t see how he is good.
See above for the Wallace comment. Anyway, down to High Tier I could see happening, but not Upper-Middle. He has the best durability in the entire game, that alone is enough to prevent him going any lower than High.
Hector never hits his Skl or Spd caps, so they don’t matter. He has a 25% Res growth and +5 Res on promotion, which makes his overall Res actually better than many physical attackers.
The enemy Casters in this game are very few compared to physical enemies, and have failure stats anyway(with a few exceptions). There’s nothing wrong with Hector’s Res by comparison to other physical PCs, and he either OHKOs, doubles or does both to most enemy magic users……with the Hand Axe. He’s probably one of your better magic fighters.
At Harken’s base LvL, Raven is ahead by almost a full 10 in Hp while Harken only has 2.5 more Def. Harken has 1 more Str and 2 more Con, but Raven’s Spd is so much higher(7 points) that he smashes Harken regardless. Raven is clearly superior to Harken, and Harken’s already in High Tier(at the very bottom of it, but nonetheless).
20/10 Erk only has 1 more Spd than Athos and Athos has higher Con, Pent is slower than Athos at that LvL. Athos’s Def beats Erk’s Hp, and he wins in every other stat by large amounts. He also has S Rank in every Magic(Luna and Fortify FTW) and a Prf Legendary Tome(Forblaze >>> Excalibur), he owns Erk and Pent in equip options.
Hm, Eliwood either promotes late or promotes really late, and in the former case his Promo Item is 20K(as opposed to 10K on a Knight Crest). In the face of these facts, not sure, otherwise I would easily agree with you. What does everyone else think?
They are ordered, and it was determined in the original topic that Lyn > Eliwood.
By the time Eliwood’s defense is notably superior to Lyn’s, it’s nothing special since we’re in the lategame and everyone has good durability(20/10 Lyn and her 86 Dodge/40+ Hp isn’t gonna die to enemy randoms very easily at all), while Lyn remains significantly ahead in offense from start to finish.
I’d say both would be 7/0 or so. Of course, in the category of relevant Levels, Lyn is much better since Eliwood is forced to either promote late or promote really late(as I said before).
Lyn’s AS advantage crushes Eliwood’s Str up to the promotion point, and from there on out she takes a lead because she promotes earlier. Even by 20/10 the Str gap is only two points, and Lyn’s Supports should make up for that.
Raven’s offense is the best in the entire game and his durability is fine(in fact it’s pretty good compared to most units). Throw in HHM Bonuses and good Supports(which are a rare commodity in this game, moreso than in FE8, at least), and he is easily God Tier. No real weak points and a massive strong point(game-best offense).
Rath and Heath help your Exp Ranking, which somewhat offsets the late joining time. Unlike Nino, training them isn’t hopeless. Anyway, some things to keep in mind about Lowen by comparison to Kent/Sain: Lowen is fairly tanky later on, but the tankishness comes at the wrong time, high defense is most valuable early on, not later(when most people have no trouble staying alive anyway). Lowen’s offense is pretty terrible(substantially less Str than Kent and substantially less Skl/Spd than Sain, not a good combination), while Kent/Sain’s durability is fine by comparison to the team in general(it’s actually well above average before promotion).
Lances also have more Mt than either of Lyn’s weapons, and the WTA over Swords easily offsets the Iron Lance’s -2/3 AS.
I really fail to see the merit of such tactics concerning Lowen. He can only do this later on, and like I’ve already said, over half the team could do it by then, except that they’d actually kill most of the enemies. And yes, killing enemies is a good thing, the faster those enemies go down the faster you can finish the Chapter and maintain your Tactics Rating.
I can agree to that, anyone else disagree?
Raven also has the potential to get blessed and beat Harken down even more, RNG screwage isn’t a very strong point. Joining with a Brave Sword isn’t an inherent advantage for Harken. Isadora joins with a Silver Sword, Short Spear and Angelic Robe, that doesn’t make her good, you just strip the equipment as soon as she joins, give it to someone good, and bench Isadora. Raven’s Spd is so much higher that he’s significantly faster than Harken even when both are weighed down. Harken doesn’t require a Promo Item, this is the only valid point I see in his favor against Raven, but Raven can answer it with Supports(which, unlike Harken, he will actually have most of the time).
Erk is the best option for Priscilla, he is her fastest partner by a big margin compared to anyone else except Raven, and his Affinity is better than Raven’s. |
| Mior, LvL 1 Mage | |
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| Soul | Nov 1 2006, 09:57 PM Post #56 |
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Ooh, my head is spinning...
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And you would save a Heaven Seal just for funds ranking because? |
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My FEABL profile Jarro; lvl. 20/13 Mage Knight, Frost; lvl. 20/18 Phalanx, Melissa lvl. 12 Archer, Rexall; level 17 Squire, Marco; level 10 Wyvern Knight RP Only: Sarah Retired: Krys, Lizzie, Kratos, Ruby, Amery, Fairah, Grimliss, Azrael, Hanz, Rowan Tales of The Abyss, FEABL Style, fun stuff!
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| Mario123v2 | Nov 1 2006, 10:17 PM Post #57 |
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Deep South Commando
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While saving a Heaven Seal for Funds can certainly be called into question, it *is* a valid point that you can buy some Killer weapons and promote Kent instead of promoting Eliwood. Not much of one, granted, but Eliwod does hurt Funds more than the average unit. Oh, and:
Nope. b(^_^)b from me. |
You, sir, win. | |
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| Soul | Nov 1 2006, 10:24 PM Post #58 |
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Ooh, my head is spinning...
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I would argue that it could hurt your tactics rating though, since you'll have one less unit to take on the Dragon, since an unpromoted Eliwood would likely get OHKO'd, (a combined attack of Hector, Lyn, Eliwood and Athos just barely is enough to beat him in one turn) forcing you to play more conservitably. I dunno how valid this point is, but meh |
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My FEABL profile Jarro; lvl. 20/13 Mage Knight, Frost; lvl. 20/18 Phalanx, Melissa lvl. 12 Archer, Rexall; level 17 Squire, Marco; level 10 Wyvern Knight RP Only: Sarah Retired: Krys, Lizzie, Kratos, Ruby, Amery, Fairah, Grimliss, Azrael, Hanz, Rowan Tales of The Abyss, FEABL Style, fun stuff!
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| Mario123v2 | Nov 1 2006, 11:05 PM Post #59 |
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Deep South Commando
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Athos and Canas with Luna, coupled with Fortify/Physic from Pent/Priscilla, kills in two with relatively little harm as well. 1 more turn in Light pt II of all places isn't going to kill your Tactics, and not promoting Eliwood will help your Funds more than promoting him helps your Tactics in Light. I still wouldn't be in favor of not promoting Eliwood; typically in S ranking HHM I don't use Lyn, so I still have 20kG saved. |
You, sir, win. | |
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| WJC | Nov 1 2006, 11:33 PM Post #60 |
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Actually, if I can promote two units for the same cost of promoting Eliwood, I’ll take Kent + Sain over him. While he may edge out either one individually, the two combined are clearly superior to just Eliwood alone. In all honesty, though, I probably wouldn’t refuse to promote Eliwood. However, this does nothing to change the fact that Eliwood does twice as much damage to Funds as the normal unit. |
| Mior, LvL 1 Mage | |
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| Nate | Nov 2 2006, 12:15 AM Post #61 |
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yeah
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(Any time I cite stats without actually specifying a level, assume they’re 20/15 stats, as 20/15 is fairly representative of the end of the game. Okay, I'm not sure where to start, so I'll start with my previous remarks: Raven is too high and Legault is too low. Legault is a lot easier to argue, so I’ll start with him. Yes, Legault isn’t a very good battler as a thief, and the awful assassin class just makes that worse. But good luck getting through the game with a decent funds rank without a thief. Dart’s ocean seal or Farina’s 20,000 is too expensive, but every single non-weapon or –staff hold item can be spared? No, one can’t get through FE7 well without a thief. Matthew or Legault – it doesn’t matter, just a thief. And quite frankly, Legault is better at it. Sure, Matthew will ram his speed cap earlier, but if you raise them to level 20 (and trust me, they’ll be seeing enough combat to get to level 20) both will almost certainly have 20 speed. And with a deficit in literally every stat but HP even before Legault’s HHM boosts, Matthew is not the thief to choose at 20/-. And other than lightning-quick supports, Matthew has nothing else to offer. Assassin? What would you need an assassin for? Both are pitiful in battle as an assassin (though at least Legault has a lower chance of dying), so why on earth would you care? You need a thief, so it might as well be the better one. As for Raven… my recommendation for Raven’s demotion from God Tier stems from the essential truth of FE (IMO): in a game where the starkest penalties stem from dying, the most important quality for a unit is not dying. A unit that is mediocre at not dying does not belong in God Tier, period. God tier is the big leagues, and there’s no way 14 defense and 63 avoid is going to cut it in the big leagues, no matter how good a hitter you are. If anything, Raven’s humongous numbers in Str and Spd are a liability for him; he’ll keep killing enemies to take more hits, but he can’t afford to take more hits. Certainly he has his uses (there’s no one better at clearing out a small room), but Fiora has her uses, Kent has his uses, Lyn has her uses. What makes Raven that cut above? His wonderful support variety? Now on to Farina, just because. Farina’s got a lot going for her, but 20,000 gold is a hefty price, isn’t it? And she comes underlevelled, too! Her underlevelling helps her make up for the huge gold hit with a bunch of EXP, as she slaughters hordes of monks on the level she comes in on – it’s as if Rath entered not just on a level with a lot of wyverns, but on a level where the enemies are sworn never to attack one who uses a bow. To truly appreciate Farina, let’s compare her to her sisters. Farina has 4 more defense than Fiora, and 7 – 7! – more than Florina. Okay, that’s enough comparison. There are some things Avoid just can’t make up, and Farina has comparable avoid to her sisters anyway. Farina’s stunning starting stats mean the gap is even wider at earlier levels, where most of the game (and most of the levels where fliers are going to be most effective) takes place. Perhaps Heath would be a better comparison? Heath does not pass Farina’s defense until 20/4. Heath’s strength is only 2 higher than Farina’s at 20/15. Heath has only about a 1.5 point lead in skill at 20/15, the most worthless stat (except HP). Farina is 3 points quicker than Heath at 20/15. Farina’s resistance is a massive 12 points higher than Heath’s at 20/15. Farina at 20/15 holds a 7-point lead in luck. So, what does Heath have? 10 of what is by far the most useless stat in the game? 2 strength? 2 skill? An endgame defense lead that looks more like a rounding error? He’s not even considerably better at the things wyvern riders are supposed to be good at. I’d compare Vaida, but I’ll wait to see how the inevitable Vaida v. Heath comes out before I see if I need to. 20,000 is a premium, but you’re paying premium price for premium quality – Farina is far and away the best flier in the game. Maybe this tier list can’t afford Farina because it isn’t favoring a thief? |
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| Bears | Nov 2 2006, 12:19 AM Post #62 |
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Wow... |
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4:24 PM - John Ѯzzingford: "Alternate Universes". 4:24 PM - John Ѯzzingford: Taking an existing set of characters, and putting them in an altogether different setting. 4:25 PM - John Ѯzzingford: For example, you could take the cast of the Mario games, and set them up in some kind of detective-versus-cannibal-mastermind drama. | |
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| WJC | Nov 2 2006, 01:13 AM Post #63 |
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I'm not sure of exactly how the Funds Rating works, whether it goes down when certain amounts of assets are lost, or whether it’s based on your total assets, though I’d imagine it’s the former(otherwise you wouldn’t be able to get 5 Stars until you pick up the more valuable items such as Ocean Seal and Fell Contract later on, and this isn’t the case). Anyway, if it is indeed the former, then you can easily get 5 Stars in Funds without a Thief. Not to say that you shouldn’t have one, per say, but one must weigh the value of a unit who is pure utility vs the value of one is actually fighting. The actual combatants probably do more to further your Ranking than any other units you have, seeing as how they’re the ones killing the enemies(and thus finishing the Chapter fast enough to maintain Tactics Rating), and also the ones upholding the Combat and Exp Ratings. Back to Legault. Legault’s only got a limited window of time where he’s truly in the spotlight(from when he joins until Jaffar joins); before then, he obviously doesn’t exist, and once Jaffar comes in he can at least take the place of Legault as a Lockpick user while being a decent fighter when you need him to be. By that point, there’s still a few things left to Steal, but not enough to really make an impact(what you’ll actually be using of these items are little things like a Pure Water), and you’ve got to weigh the value of said items against that of having a competent filler character take Legault’s spot.
First off, in the same line of thinking you’re using, one could argue that offense is most important as you cannot win if the enemies do not die. I disdain such theories as these, since they generally fall in line with the vein of thought which acknowledges Hp as the most important stat based on the fact that if you have 0 Hp you die, but you can have 0 in any other stat and still do something(ironically, it seems that you consider Hp to be the least important stat). When Raven’s being mobbed by half a dozen or more enemies, yes, he’ll probably take more Hits than someone such as, say, Lowen. Most of the time, though, the number of enemies coming at any given time is smaller and Raven’s offense is helpful to net durability(faster the enemies die, the fewer chances they have to attack your party). A powerful offense is just as important as anything else when playing for Rankings(especially against the boss enemy, someone whom Raven usually excels at taking down), faster the enemies die the faster you finish the Chapter and maintain Tactics, and it’s also good for Combat from what I’ve seen. Thing about your “most important objective is not dying” argument is that Raven really isn’t in any danger of dying by the time someone not named Marcus, Oswin or Hector beats him in defense by a larger margin than he beats them in offense. I’d like you to name a few units who handily beat Raven in defense from start to finish, aren’t already in God Tier, and don’t get defeated by him offensively.
You can easily maintain the Exp Rating without using Farina(there are other underlevelled units to use and most do better at this than Farina, Rath and Heath come to mind, and later on, Nino; your Thieves are also decent for this assuming you don’t powerlevel them, since they’ve got an Exp boost). Farina’s total damage to Funds is probably between 30000G and 40000G: 20K to recruit her, 10K to promote, and then items you’re going to have to sell either to recruit her at all or to stay afloat after blowing that 20K(possibly both). Her damage to the Funds Rating is far greater than her contribution to the Exp Rating.
I said it before, guess I’ll say it again, Florina and Fiora are probably promoted when Farina joins, so “lower levels” aren’t exactly relevant here. As for Farina statwise, Supports pretty much defeat her: 20/10 Farina 41.8 Hp 20.4 Str 19.8 Skl 21.6 Spd 17.7 Luck 16.2 Def 19.1 Res 6 Con 20/10 Fiora 41.4 Hp 17.7 Str 23.6 Skl 23.5 Spd 12.6 Luck 12.4 Def 20.0 Res 6 Con B Kent B Florina 20/10 Florina 38.8 Hp 18.2 Str 20.9 Skl 23.8 Spd 21.0 Luck 10.2 Def 15.8 Res 5 Con A Lyn B Fiora After adding in Supports and giving each an Iron Lance: (Hp/Atk/AS/Def/Dodge) Florina: 38.8/30.2/20.8/12.2/62.6 Fiora: 41.4/28.7/21.5/14.4/60.6 Farina: 41.8/27.4/19.6/16.2/60.9 What do we notice about this? First off, Farina’s losing to them both in Atk and AS, and thus overall offense. Her 4 Def and 3 Hp beats Florina’s 2 Dodge, and she roughly ties Fiora in Hp/Dodge while winning Def by 2. So her defense is better. On the whole, I’d say Farina edges out the win, since none of her stats come from Supports. But, uh, is this small improvement really worth 30K-40K damage to Funds Rating? Hell no, Farina’s lead isn’t nearly large enough to warrant her price tag. |
| Mior, LvL 1 Mage | |
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| Nate | Nov 2 2006, 10:30 AM Post #64 |
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yeah
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Bang Bang - Dispatch (CD)
And if it is indeed the latter, than a thief is indispensable. The topic is foolish without confirmation either way.
You don't need Jaffar. There are about two locked doors after Jaffar joins the party (not counting Light, in which the doors open automatically anyway). Why would you use Jaffar when you could use a better late-game prepromo, like... most of the late-game prepromos? He can't steal, lockpicking isn't that important with few doors and few chests, and IIRC there are no fog of war levels after 26/28. And arguing that Legault is of limited usefulness due to limited time seems at odds with putting Athos in God Tier.
Any characters with power so low it cannot even harm enemies are never used. There are no characters with high enough HP to make other considerations irrelevant. However, there are characters with high enough defense to substantially increase their survivability, and a few that do so to the extent that they are practically invincible (though they're already in God Tier). What I'm saying is that Def is generally more important than Str for the same reason that protecting one's king is more important than making a cool fork in chess: if you screw up Def, you lose. Game over. Units with lower attack power can still deal significant damage in this game, though, and often even 2HKO things.
Certainly Raven is very useful - I'm not denying that. However, the point of god tier isn't just to be very useful. It's to be a god of the battlefield. Athos can rip apart enemies effortlessly from range, without putting himself at risk, and Hector and Oswin are titans, charging through the battlefield and leaving a trail of bodies without taking more than fifteen points of damage. Raven just isn't at that level. He's high tier, but not god.
That's a fairly irrelevant request, as I argued only that Raven does not deserve god tier, not that someone else deserves it more than he does. (Farina consistently beats him in both defense and avoid, isn't that far behind in strength or speed, and flies, but she has slow supports unless you're using her sisters, comes relatively late, and has a hefty price tag.) Instead, I present you with a counteroffer: tell me how Raven's use in battle is close to Hector's or Oswin's. (I'm dubious about Athos, so I don't want him involved.)
Certainly, but you can put the effort you would be using to use a unit like Rath, Heath, or Nino (who have problems of their own) into something else if you use Farina.
You don't have to use that much money to stay afloat, as a huge cash infusion is coming in six chapters anyway. 32500G seems a fair figure for cost, and while that's expensive, you should be able to make it out alright if you skimp on Victory or Death (a really good flier will make that easier, and Farina is a really good flier).
Shockingly, characters with supports tend to be more powerful than characters without supports! However, I must ask, if Florina is getting her Lyn bonus (and, to a lesser extent, Fiora is getting her Kent bonus), what on earth are you doing with your fliers? Shouldn't they be off flying somewhere? If you're not going to have them flying o'er hills and mountains, just grab another paladin instead. Support bonuses start getting harder to maintain when one has 8 move to play with and no terrain restrictions. In addition, Farina has quick supports with her sisters, so it's unfair to not at least give her a B with either one by 20/10. |
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| KJ456 | Nov 2 2006, 01:27 PM Post #65 |
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Ahahahaha- *snort* -hahahaha- *snort* -heheheh
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Lowen can do so fairly early, though, and unless most of your army has 8 move he won't be hurting your tactics rating in the process. Also, I think Erk should, at the very least, be beneath Canas. While it can be argued that his speed and joining time barely put him above Canas' every other stat and luna, Erk suffers from a fairly notable flaw. Pent. Unlike most prepromos, Pent is generally accepted as statistically superior to his unpromoted counterpart both at joining and endgame level, as well as having superior supporis and weapon levels. Therefore, there is absolutely no reason to use Erk over Pent other than him being RNG-blessed or leveled notably higher than him, the former being entirely useless in a debate and the latter not something you'd encounter in a conventional playthrough, meaning that any exp poured into Erk will, far more often than not, end up as a waste by chapter 24E/26H (IIRC), unless you intend to use two anima users (in which case you'd probably still opt for Priscilla or maybe even Nino, if you choose to ignore Tactics and lateness, over him). Quite the handicap, IMO. |
![]() Do not click. Do, however, click these at your leisure ('specially for stats): Gero, Terra, Tic, Nys'elni and Murphy. ![]() Banner by Shade. Challenges open if I'm around, though you'd better be prepared to stat, 'cause I'm lazy. My theme, according to the Mooney one. | |
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| Serene Steelzard | Nov 2 2006, 02:13 PM Post #66 |
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... uh-huh.
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*claps* The first part of what you said is exactly what I was thinking when I saw WJC's post. |
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| iammax | Nov 2 2006, 02:19 PM Post #67 |
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As long as Erk and Pent are on the same tier (high), and I suppose Canas should be there too, I'd agree. I don't know which I'd put above who, but I say they should all be on the same tier. |
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| SabreCut | Nov 2 2006, 02:52 PM Post #68 |
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Don't worry guys, I got a good price for selling you out
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Canas stats are pretty sucky IIRC. If he were any other class, no one would use him. As it is though, he gets Dark magic and more importantly Luna, which is what brings him up. Heck, you might as well just replace Canas on the tier and put Dark Magic instead. |
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My theme, picked by Bugmeat Stuff about me? Well, if you really want to know... Unpromoted Characters Promoted Characters Retired Characters ![]() ![]() ![]() (Avatar picture was not drawn by me. obviously) | |
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| WJC | Nov 2 2006, 09:24 PM Post #69 |
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More important? Sure. Indispensable? No, not really; not much of the big money is generated by Stealing things. Either way, a Thief is probably worth having, as I said already, so it doesn’t really matter.
Lockpicks open Chests as well. There’s NoF and SoT, those are the only remaining Chapters with Doors or Chests. From NoF until endgame, the only really worthwhile thing to Steal is a Guiding Ring in CoD. And if there are better units to fill Jaffar’s combat slot, there should be plenty more who can take Legault’s place. “But they can’t Steal!” Yeah, on the other hand, an unpromoted Legault is near-worthless in combat by this point, while Jaffar is not. In honesty, I can see some of where you're coming from, so I wouldn't object to moving Legault up to Upper-Middle, though I think Matthew should be right behind him no matter where he goes(Legault only barely edges out in stats, and Matt also has a limited time where he's the best Thief, simply because he's the only one).
Athos is only there for one Chapter and is nothing short of godly in said Chapter. Legault’s role as Thief isn’t as important in my eyes, and he’s not always the best pick for it during the time that he’s around, either. Regardless of Jaffar, Matt and Legault’s stats are close enough that if Matt gets a few good RNs early on, it may very well be worth using him over Legault. Even with the RNG on their side, the other PC Casters really have no hope of beating Athos.
Said character does not exist(with the exception of Ninian, I suppose). A unit who is always in danger of dying does not exist, either. This is why such arguments as these fail(and it’s also why the Hp > all argument I posted fails, because no PC has stats that low to begin with).
And units with low durability can still find plenty of situations where they’re more than durable enough to get by; the enemies being scrubs works both ways.
So, hm. Raven does not deserve God Tier is your argument, but on the other hand, you are acknowledging that he deserves it more than any other unit not currently at the top.
You did not answer my request, so I don’t have to answer yours, correct? Nah, I won’t play that card. Anyway, as for whether or not Raven comes close to Hector and Oswin? I’m not sure; he definitely has advantages over them. His offense beats Oswin’s from start to finish by a considerable amount; Hector has a late promotion, at times a cripplingly late one, and at other times a 20K Promo Item. Of course, Hector and Oswin have advantages of their own, and this is why they’re above Raven. I don’t suppose I’d put Raven as close to Hector/Oswin during the earlygame(Dragon’s Gate and before), at this point in time high defense is still quite praiseworthy. Later on, though, Raven may very well be better than Hector or Oswin(adequate defense and far superior offense by comparison to Oswin, Hector has to deal with his late promotion). Of course, lategame Raven doesn’t dominate nearly as much as earlygame Hector/Oswin, and so they still come out on top. On the whole, yeah, I’d say Raven’s not that far away from Hector/Oswin, and he comes closer to them than anyone else(save perhaps Athos) regardless of that evaluation.
With Nino, you’re not gonna be promoting her, just carefully having her polish things off in NoF and CoD for the massive Exp gains she gets. Rath and Heath, I don’t really see what problems they have that Farina doesn’t; their stats are worse than hers, but their stats aren’t bad by any means, while Farina’s price tag is awful(you can promote 3 “normal” units for the same amount it costs to promote Farina).
When playing for Ranking, you won’t sell anything unless you absolutely have to, so while your Assets should be massive(higher than in a non-ranked game, easily), your actual Gold amount will be pitiful by comparison. It’s entirely possible that you won’t even have 20K when Farina makes the scene, and even if you do, you may be so nearly broke that you’ve got to sell a few things just to maintain basic equipment until you get some more Gold.
No. Sending an 8 Move unit off by herself 100% of the time is silly, she probably can’t take all the enemies alone, even if she can there’s no reason to have her do so, and most of the time there’s no Villages or anything out there for her to grab(especially by the time that your Fliers are 20/10). When you are out getting a Village or something, you’re typically not trying to pick many fights along the way, and in such a case actual combat performance doesn’t matter as much.
They’ve probably got to sacrifice a better option in order to Support Farina, though; the improvement in Farina’s performance is offset by the drop in Florina/Fiora(whichever one)’s performance.
Lowen has 7 Move before promotion. Anyway, unpromoted Lowen is anything but invulnerable. Your typical 15/0 Lowen has 12 Def; 10 Str Cavaliers are doing 10 Dmg with a Steel Lance, 7 with an Iron Lance. 8 Str Nomads do 5 Dmg with a Steel Bow. 11 Str Knights do 11 Dmg with a Steel Lance, 8 with an Iron. Hopefully you’re getting the point? Lowen’s more durable than the majority of your units, durable enough that you shouldn’t have to worry about him when he’s fighting alongside the rest of the team, but sending him off to take attacks from all the enemies in an area by himself? There are very few situations where he can pull that stunt and Kent/Sain cannot.
Pent, Erk and Canas all have the same role: offensive Caster. Canas is competing with Pent every bit as much as Erk is. |
| Mior, LvL 1 Mage | |
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| iammax | Nov 3 2006, 11:39 AM Post #70 |
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Canas's Stats aren't that bad... he has good def, for an offense caster. |
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| KJ456 | Nov 3 2006, 01:21 PM Post #71 |
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Ahahahaha- *snort* -hahahaha- *snort* -heheheh
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Canas has the advantage of being able to wield Luna, a distinct advantage over Pent Erk lacks. Also, however insignificant, the magic triangle is still there, and though it may just be poor recollection on my part, anima and dark are fairly more used by enemies than light. |
![]() Do not click. Do, however, click these at your leisure ('specially for stats): Gero, Terra, Tic, Nys'elni and Murphy. ![]() Banner by Shade. Challenges open if I'm around, though you'd better be prepared to stat, 'cause I'm lazy. My theme, according to the Mooney one. | |
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| WJC | Nov 3 2006, 08:56 PM Post #72 |
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Erk also has Thunder and Fire, which are better than Flux, so there’s an advantage Pent has over Canas but not Erk. As for the magic triangle, you’re right, but outside of HHM enemy Casters are so weak that it doesn’t really matter. |
| Mior, LvL 1 Mage | |
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| iammax | Nov 3 2006, 10:13 PM Post #73 |
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Would it ever be useful to inform you that it's useless to make tiers because the majority of poeple will never completely agree? |
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| Mario123v2 | Nov 4 2006, 12:57 AM Post #74 |
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Deep South Commando
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WJC beat me to the bulk of it, so I'll hit some other parts myself.
At 20/15, Raven has 14 Defense...without Supports. He has 64 Avoid (.6 does not truncate, it rounds up)...without supports. With A Lucius B Priscilla, his defensive parameters look more like this at 20/15: 54 HP, 26 AS, 71 Avoid, 18 Defense, 11 Resistance How, sans Resistance, is that *not* durable?
And a look at Farina's support list, her partners' support lists, and her joining time provide logical reasoning as to why it seems unfair. Farina - Joins: Chapter 25 Hector Mode, "Crazed Beast" - Affinity: Anima Supports With: Florina - 16/43/70 - LightxAnima Fiora - 17/44/71 - WindxAnima Dart - 41/81/121 - FirexAnima Karla - 41/81/121 - DarkxAnima Dorcas - 81/161/241 - FirexAnima Hector - 81/161/241 - ThunderxAnima Kent - 81/161/241 - AnimaxAnima Florina: Florina will have A Lyndis by now for sure, and she has a nice and quick B support with Ninian. She can also take B Fiora if you prefer; either way, Florina's perfetcl capable of being fully supported by the time Farina joins. Fiora: She gets a decently quick A support with a unit she can adequately keep up with (Kent); from there, she can take B Florina or B Sain. She can also be fully supported by the time Farina joins, and if not, she'll have a B with both and some progress on her A. The point is, unless you're going to take an inefficient C support simply for the sake of supporting Farina as best you can, Fiora won't take Farnia support. There's also the point that Farina was originally compared against her sisters for best Pegasus Knight; if you're using Farina as the best, why bother with a flier you find inferior to her? Dart: Dart will definitely take A Rebecca as his primary support. From there, Geitz joins a chapter earlier and has the same speed, and Wil has been around as long as Dart has and has a faster support with Wil than with Farina. Point being, Dart will have A Rebecca B Wil by the time Farina joins. I can see her getting a C, perhaps a B with Dart by endgame, though, if you don't use two Snipers. Karla: Karla's pretty awful. I shouldn't even have to go into that. or sake of noting it, though, the support is 121 to A and 81 to B, it starts in the final four maps of the game, it's with a Swordmaster outclassed in combat (though not elsewhere :wub:), and its only decent bonus is full Avoid. Dorcas: Dorcas is absolutely horrible as well; the support has better bonuses than Karla and starts earlier, but it's longer to B than Karla is to A. Whoops. And if Farina is taking a Dart support, Dart is in play; why does Dorcas exist, again? Double whoops. On top of that, Dorcas will take a support with Oswin first (the support assumes both units are being used, and if Dorcas is used, both he and Oswin will take early AnimaxFire), making this another B at best. So far, we have B Dart, B Dorcas, and C Fiora: not looking good. One of them is an ever-so-inefficient C support (whee +1 Atk +2 Avd +2 Crit +5 CEV +2 Hit; hell, that's a slightly souped up tactician's bonus, and we all know how insignificant the tactician's bonus is) and the other two are with units that compete for even being played together. Iterum, not good. Hector: If Hector honestly wanted an Anima support THAT badly, he's got a support that ends four times faster, started up 15+ maps ago, and supports two Lords, of all units. The second-fastest Anima support he has joins at the same time Eliwood/Hector does and trades speed for practicality. (Eliwood will be fighting on the frontlines, granted, but when you have to hold those two-unit main entryways, who are you gonna use to block them? That's right, the two God Tier titans that support each other to boot.) Just to add icing to the cake, Hector also has a faster support with another Pegasus Knight, so if he wants a Pegasus Knight support, he can get one without Farina, thanks. Now, the clincher: even if Hector meets none of these requirements and still insists on a Farina support, it's a 241 turn support with a late joining flier. Uh-oh. Kent: He can support Fiora if he wants a Pegasus Knight support, he's got a much faster Lyn support than his Farina support, and as stated before, he's supporting Fiora already. Plus, 241 turn support, lawl. |
You, sir, win. | |
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