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Random quick patch idea.
Topic Started: Feb 23 2007, 12:16 PM (1,609 Views)
Abyssal_Shrimp
I broke my shades!

I don't think anybody defied Soren's rule over FE9 magic users.

Nothing more to add on Astrid vs. Rolf, except maybe the fact that 15 crit isn't really worth being able to counterattack correctly >>

And Neph is good, but far from uber. >_>
Kruen, level 20/5 Berserker
Xiella, level 20/1 Guardian
Fernand, level 5 Knight
Aurelia, level 8 Dragonrider
Mariann, level 4 Hunter

RETIRED
Raedul, level 20/20 Paladin
Tancred, level 100 Tangrowth
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Serene Steelzard
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... uh-huh.

Gigs
 
Tormod > Ilyana >>>>>>> Soren


*points*
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Iron Shaman
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ha ha ha

All I'm saying is that whether or not a character has godly stats, I don't take that into much account when sorting a run.

I've used Raven once or twice, and both times I found him too much of an annoying character or just a pain to use, and dumped him.
FE: Herald of Faith
Take a look! IS has got event hacking skillz!

Characters

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Gooooo Fish <3
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Abyssal_Shrimp
I broke my shades!

Serene_Dragon
Feb 24 2007, 09:04 AM
Gigs
 
Tormod > Ilyana >>>>>>> Soren


*points*

Damn, you're right, I even responded to that. But that fact that Gigs hasn't replied anymore probably meant he didn't intend to prove it in any way whatsoever. >_>

On a side note, I'm also gonna agree with you in that I favor Soren's personality/background over Ilyana and Tormod's.
Kruen, level 20/5 Berserker
Xiella, level 20/1 Guardian
Fernand, level 5 Knight
Aurelia, level 8 Dragonrider
Mariann, level 4 Hunter

RETIRED
Raedul, level 20/20 Paladin
Tancred, level 100 Tangrowth
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Tookie
Member Avatar
Pretend I put something witty here.

*Attempts to bring thread back to topic*

Current status: Bases edited for Ikey-poo, Neph, Devdan and the SMs.

Great Lord has officialy been hijacked for the Halbys.
Flare
 
Okay.

You have been dressed down by Tookie for trolling.

This topic is now over. It can be mathematically proved that there is no adequate comeback to that simple fact.


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Abyssal_Shrimp
I broke my shades!

Dude, there's no discussion ti be had about that, again. >_>
Kruen, level 20/5 Berserker
Xiella, level 20/1 Guardian
Fernand, level 5 Knight
Aurelia, level 8 Dragonrider
Mariann, level 4 Hunter

RETIRED
Raedul, level 20/20 Paladin
Tancred, level 100 Tangrowth
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Tookie
Member Avatar
Pretend I put something witty here.

STOP APPLYING LOGIC
Flare
 
Okay.

You have been dressed down by Tookie for trolling.

This topic is now over. It can be mathematically proved that there is no adequate comeback to that simple fact.


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Abyssal_Shrimp
I broke my shades!

BUT IT'S WHAT I DO BEST
Kruen, level 20/5 Berserker
Xiella, level 20/1 Guardian
Fernand, level 5 Knight
Aurelia, level 8 Dragonrider
Mariann, level 4 Hunter

RETIRED
Raedul, level 20/20 Paladin
Tancred, level 100 Tangrowth
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Serene Steelzard
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... uh-huh.

XD
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Tookie
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Pretend I put something witty here.

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 24 2007, 02:19 PM
BUT IT'S WHAT I DO BEST

I don't care.
Flare
 
Okay.

You have been dressed down by Tookie for trolling.

This topic is now over. It can be mathematically proved that there is no adequate comeback to that simple fact.


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Abyssal_Shrimp
I broke my shades!

But I do. >_>
Kruen, level 20/5 Berserker
Xiella, level 20/1 Guardian
Fernand, level 5 Knight
Aurelia, level 8 Dragonrider
Mariann, level 4 Hunter

RETIRED
Raedul, level 20/20 Paladin
Tancred, level 100 Tangrowth
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Soul
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Ooh, my head is spinning...

Serene_Dragon
Feb 24 2007, 09:22 AM
XD

^^
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Quote:
 
Flare's clone says (5:22 PM):
You know, the first time I scrolled over your MSN icon fast, I thought it was Wodan with a top hat.

Quote:
 
[00:55] Apejack Cuba: someone sig that

Medi in diplomacy
 
And why should I trust your ability? You have very consistently been losing ground to the Germans, regardless of whether I've been on your side or not. What you're telling me is that I have a dilemma: either I can fight you and see you lose all of your SCs to Germany, or I can fight Germany and see you lose all of your SCs to Germany.
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Tookie
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Pretend I put something witty here.

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 24 2007, 03:20 PM
But I do. >_>

I don't care that you care.
Flare
 
Okay.

You have been dressed down by Tookie for trolling.

This topic is now over. It can be mathematically proved that there is no adequate comeback to that simple fact.


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Abyssal_Shrimp
I broke my shades!

SM 2K
Feb 24 2007, 10:48 AM
Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 24 2007, 03:20 PM
But I do. >_>

I don't care that you care.

And I d-

...do I really want to start that?

Negative : It's gonna get boring.

Positive : It's dragging SM's topic more off than it ever was.

...

I don't care that you don't care that I care, I still care.

>_>
Kruen, level 20/5 Berserker
Xiella, level 20/1 Guardian
Fernand, level 5 Knight
Aurelia, level 8 Dragonrider
Mariann, level 4 Hunter

RETIRED
Raedul, level 20/20 Paladin
Tancred, level 100 Tangrowth
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KJ456
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Ahahahaha- *snort* -hahahaha- *snort* -heheheh

Bah, Soren annoys me.

Syphon Knight
Feb 24 2007, 05:37 AM
Seth > Titania > Oifaye, relatively.  Seth can solo FE8 while Oifaye is surpassed after the first chapter he appears.  <_<

Eh, Oifaye doesn't take up a spot on my team. That's a huge bonus to me. >_>

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 24 2007, 05:46 AM
Swords gives as much WEXP as axes. This is FE9, where WEXP is independant on weapon weight, not FEABL. Steel Swords gives 2 WEXP per use, which get her up to B with 45 uses, which really is 23 battles, seeing as how her doubling ability is very high.

Really? That sounds way too fast, compared to how fast my units' weapon levels grow... I'll just take your word for it. Still, that's 30-ish rounds where she won't be healing, and where you're using a unit with considerably weaker offense than... anyone, for the lone purpose of making them decent with one weapon. Not to mention that her being capable of attacking something often implies that there's also something to heal. Illers can use thunder and elthunder off the bat, and she'll never need anything else that isn't staves.

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 24 2007, 05:46 AM
Shade is still a bother prepromotion, as it denies her needed EXP to catch up with the other members of your team, I'm willing to say it counterbalances Mist's dodge lead post-promo.

It's very easy to put her in the range of a few lone enemies without putting anyone else there. Really. But considering the defensive capabilities of a mage, would you really prefer it if anyone in range would attack yours?

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 24 2007, 05:46 AM
Though Mist does indeed start much more underleveled than Ilyana she has a definite advantage the mage doesn't ; she draws EXP from a separate pool, healing. Unlike Ilyana, she can heal before promoting, which means she isn't taking away EXP from superior fighting units. Ilyana does, however, and fights less well than them. It's considerably easier to level Mist as she has much less competition than Ilyana as far as acquiring EXP goes.

Well, if healing is your only source of exp, good luck getting a valk before... chapter 20-something. Or at all, unless you heal every turn someone is hurt. Unpromoted Ilyana is also much better than you claim. In fact, the only magic user whose bases are better is Calill, all things considered. Soren deals crap damage until his magic catches up, Tormod's bases are almost as low as Illers', except he joins 8 chapters later, while Bastian... is Bastian. And, similar to what you said about them unpromoted, Illers will drawing wexp from the bountiful staff pool, while Mist'll have to compete with everyone for wexp. Except that she's the weakest unit on your team at the point, while Ilyana starts off perfectly solid.

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 23 2007, 10:46 PM
Mist/Titania : Titania has a spot for one of the best units in the game. Believe it or not, there were solid arguments that were made for her being better than Ike. Such arguments includes early game Jeigan utility, incredibly high growths making her stats stay excellent throughout the game (390% total growths, lol), best physical weapons (primary axes, secondary lances), mounted movement rate, etc.

Er, while she does have the entire early game factor, her growths aren't that good. Or they are, but her bases are crap. The only mounted units she could be argued to be better than at equal levels are Haar and the healers, and that's debatable. She makes a useful unit, sure, but not necessarily a good support, due to a lack of lategame usefulness. Also, why is axes/lances the best combination? Axes, sure, but wouldn't swords be a better secondary, seeing as they are more versatile and you still have access to the strongest physical weapons? Bows'd also offer some nice ranged attack. Lances give little axes don't.

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 24 2007, 05:46 AM
Ilyana/Gatrie : Gatrie doesn't exactly need the extra 2 Def while he can always use avoid or atk. There's also the fact that Brom is the General you'll usually want to use due to him being superior.

You can always use more def, unless enemies tink. In which case more avoid is nearly as useless. And Brom's only significant advantage is his support list, which doesn't matter much in this case, considering it involves supporting Gatrie.
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Gigs
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HELLO EVERYBODY

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 24 2007, 08:08 AM
Serene_Dragon
Feb 24 2007, 09:04 AM
Gigs
 
Tormod > Ilyana >>>>>>> Soren


*points*

Damn, you're right, I even responded to that. But that fact that Gigs hasn't replied anymore probably meant he didn't intend to prove it in any way whatsoever. >_>

On a side note, I'm also gonna agree with you in that I favor Soren's personality/background over Ilyana and Tormod's.

I was just posting my opinion. I have no real proof to bring up, because I wasn't stating it as a fact. Just based on how much I like said characters. Like IS, I don't care too much for stats when choosing characters like this. Soren bores me, but he is pretty useful until Illers is around, and even then, I still use him abit until Tormod comes around.

Also, I had no idea about this 30+ spd growth for the KW...makes it abit more useful for Gatrie and the like.
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SabreCut
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Don't worry guys, I got a good price for selling you out

SM 2K
Feb 24 2007, 01:57 PM
... I am never posting topics in this forum again.

Cool, this topic hasn't been a compete waste of time then.
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Soul
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Ooh, my head is spinning...

KJ456
Feb 24 2007, 12:45 PM
Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 24 2007, 05:46 AM
Swords gives as much WEXP as axes. This is FE9, where WEXP is independant on weapon weight, not FEABL. Steel Swords gives 2 WEXP per use, which get her up to B with 45 uses, which really is 23 battles, seeing as how her doubling ability is very high.

Really? That sounds way too fast, compared to how fast my units' weapon levels grow... I'll just take your word for it. Still, that's 30-ish rounds where she won't be healing, and where you're using a unit with considerably weaker offense than... anyone, for the lone purpose of making them decent with one weapon. Not to mention that her being capable of attacking something often implies that there's also something to heal. Illers can use thunder and elthunder off the bat, and she'll never need anything else that isn't staves.

Just to nag on this abit. Mist is really good for weakening enemies so weaker units can finish them off. Granted this probably isn't applicable in FE9, since the only person I can think of that would benefit from this is Astrid and Tormod, and it's isn't likely Mist will be promoted by then unless you poor alot of BExp into her >_>
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Jarro; lvl. 20/13 Mage Knight, Frost; lvl. 20/18 Phalanx, Melissa lvl. 12 Archer, Rexall; level 17 Squire, Marco; level 10 Wyvern Knight
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Tales of The Abyss, FEABL Style, fun stuff!

Quote:
 
Flare's clone says (5:22 PM):
You know, the first time I scrolled over your MSN icon fast, I thought it was Wodan with a top hat.

Quote:
 
[00:55] Apejack Cuba: someone sig that

Medi in diplomacy
 
And why should I trust your ability? You have very consistently been losing ground to the Germans, regardless of whether I've been on your side or not. What you're telling me is that I have a dilemma: either I can fight you and see you lose all of your SCs to Germany, or I can fight Germany and see you lose all of your SCs to Germany.
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KJ456
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Ahahahaha- *snort* -hahahaha- *snort* -heheheh

Units... weaker than Mist? Pft, yeah right. >_>

Not to mention that 1/2HKOs are rare enough in FE9 that you shouldn't need someone like that. Unless your army is, like, 8 people or something.
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Puffy
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29.02.08: Until Trickster lives or Piper devours worlds.

Serene_Dragon
Feb 24 2007, 03:52 AM
If Tormod got better stats then Soren, I'd consider using him. But he doesn't, so what's the point? I've had Soren for about 12 chapters before he even comes and he comes at a low level. I'd rather save my BEXP for Mist or Rolf.

The point, one would suppose, is to use different characters than the optimal. It's not as if all mages besides Soren fail miserably, and having a backup mage isn't a sin. In fact, all mages, except maybe Bast are pretty darn effective. It's a willingness to challenge yourself. I've stopped using Soren in later chapters, and I haven't spontaneously combusted from the lack of purple emo.

In any case, by the time you've gotten Tormod, either you're using Rolf, and he's at your party's average level, or you're not using him at all. He shouldn't be getting regular use and BEXP at this point, unless you're a big fan of his, or you're just being silly. I keep saying this, but being a mage, Tormod can do decent damage fresh out the box. He doesn't need BEXP, and will be almost promoted in a few chapters, if you try a little.

In regards to Mist and BEXP, it takes less than 2000 to promote her, if you save a promo item. (You get a Master's Seal in the mid-20's, and that was what I had for her.) This is minus any healing she might have done in the chapter she joined, or any for another chapter you bring her. It's not terribly painful, and I've done it quickly, without having to neglect units. The problem, of course, was me pumping 10 levels into Astrid and never using her. (Of course, she's the best unit to waste BEXP on, so I don't feel that badly.)
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><p align="center"><tr><td>Posted Image<br>20/7<br>Berserker</td><td>Posted Image<br>20/17<br>Falcoknight</td><td>Posted Image<br>20/8<br>Bishop</td><td>Posted Image<br>20/6<br>Halberdier</td><td>Posted Image<br>20/1<br>Swordmaster</td> </tr> <tr><td colspan="5"><br>[size=-1]Posted ImagePosted Image<br>
PM challenges are 99% kosher, unless something insane. I might still accept.
[/size]</td></tr><tr><td colspan="5">
LTC
Mar 12 2008, 05:53 PM
You're probably not attracted to topless women, either, Puffy.  It's called sexual orientation.
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Serene Steelzard
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... uh-huh.

...And why should I use a worse character when I can, and do, use the better one?

Besides, I like Soren. I like his personality, I like his background and I like his supports and his uber stats. I've never felt the need to have two mages in my party, especially when I already have one as good as Soren. If Soren gets screwed (he hasn't so far, but it's not impossible), I've had Ilyana for longer then Tormod so I'd use her. Not to mention that I normally choose my party members very early on and Soren's in it. And I use too many characters as it is... <_<;;

And I normally pump BEXP into Mist, Rolf and Astrid. I usually have loads spare, but I'd rather use that on my other party members then someone I'm not going to use because I have a better mage/sage already.

And in a game where all you do is fight, stats are right high up on the list for how I decide who to use.
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Gigs
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HELLO EVERYBODY

Quote:
 
...And why should I use a worse character when I can, and do, use the better one?

We're not saying you should; we're just defending our own actions to using characters we prefer.
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Puffy
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29.02.08: Until Trickster lives or Piper devours worlds.

If you're going to keep playing through the game with the same characters, that's your choice, but it absolutely defeats the purpose of there being fourty-six mostly-capable characters to choose from. If you've never used Tormod, you can't say he's worse, because he actually has a unique, powerful ability. If MOV is what you value, he's actually the strongest. It's a different kind of comparison to Tormod and Soren than to Illy and Soren. (Actually Shade does make her valuable, too. But it's still different. Cal to Soren might be a better choice, if not for the knives...)

If you're only smothering Rolf/Astrid/Mist with BEXP, and you've been doing it since they've joined, I don't see why they're not capable to run in your party without more BEXP. Astrid is the only excuse to say you don't have BEXP to spare, but she takes half the normal amount, and assuming you're actively using and not benching all three, who else are you giving all of it to? Point for point, you get more bang for your BEXP with a low-level character. There's not much of a valid reason to not use Tormod (or Illy, or Cal), save personal preference.

I can question your taste in liking the Purple King of Emo all I want, but I'm not going there, because it really should be that one plays using the characters they enjoy, as opposed to the ones with the best stats. It can only be so rewarding to keep using strong characters, but if you really like him that much, to shun every other mage, go ahead. Magic is good in FE9, and if Soren is all you have, I guess that is challenging yourself.
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><p align="center"><tr><td>Posted Image<br>20/7<br>Berserker</td><td>Posted Image<br>20/17<br>Falcoknight</td><td>Posted Image<br>20/8<br>Bishop</td><td>Posted Image<br>20/6<br>Halberdier</td><td>Posted Image<br>20/1<br>Swordmaster</td> </tr> <tr><td colspan="5"><br>[size=-1]Posted ImagePosted Image<br>
PM challenges are 99% kosher, unless something insane. I might still accept.
[/size]</td></tr><tr><td colspan="5">
LTC
Mar 12 2008, 05:53 PM
You're probably not attracted to topless women, either, Puffy.  It's called sexual orientation.
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KJ456
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Ahahahaha- *snort* -hahahaha- *snort* -heheheh

If it weren't for knives, Calill would probably be the best sage. >_>
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Puffy
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29.02.08: Until Trickster lives or Piper devours worlds.

KJ456
Feb 24 2007, 12:06 PM
If it weren't for knives, Calill would probably be the best sage. >_>

She would certainly become a contender; Tormod is only slightly more defensive than her, and Nihil might be interesting to work with. She comes out to be much faster than Soren with that amazing STR of hers.

Never thought about it, though I am fond of her...
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><p align="center"><tr><td>Posted Image<br>20/7<br>Berserker</td><td>Posted Image<br>20/17<br>Falcoknight</td><td>Posted Image<br>20/8<br>Bishop</td><td>Posted Image<br>20/6<br>Halberdier</td><td>Posted Image<br>20/1<br>Swordmaster</td> </tr> <tr><td colspan="5"><br>[size=-1]Posted ImagePosted Image<br>
PM challenges are 99% kosher, unless something insane. I might still accept.
[/size]</td></tr><tr><td colspan="5">
LTC
Mar 12 2008, 05:53 PM
You're probably not attracted to topless women, either, Puffy.  It's called sexual orientation.
</td></tr><tr><td colspan="5"> </td></tr></p></table>
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KJ456
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Ahahahaha- *snort* -hahahaha- *snort* -heheheh

Well, it'd depend on her staff level, of course. Though she'd probably be able to use physic right off the bat.

EDIT: I tend to use her as my main magical offense. She does quite pwn. Not to mention her gift of Spirit dust. >_>
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Do not click. Do, however, click these at your leisure ('specially for stats): Gero, Terra, Tic, Nys'elni and Murphy.

Posted Image
Banner by Shade.

Challenges open if I'm around, though you'd better be prepared to stat, 'cause I'm lazy.

My theme, according to the Mooney one.
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Gigs
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HELLO EVERYBODY

I've never really used Calill...I suppose the lack of staff might have something to do with it. I don't really see that many situations in which knives would be better then staves for Sages...
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KJ456
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Ahahahaha- *snort* -hahahaha- *snort* -heheheh

When there are magic tanky enemies around and nobody's seriously hurt? >_>
Posted Image

Do not click. Do, however, click these at your leisure ('specially for stats): Gero, Terra, Tic, Nys'elni and Murphy.

Posted Image
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Challenges open if I'm around, though you'd better be prepared to stat, 'cause I'm lazy.

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Serene Steelzard
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... uh-huh.

I play through FE7 using mostly the same characters over and over and it's never made it any less enjoyable for me.

On the BEXP thing, I believe I said that I have loads to spare. Which I use on all of my characters in my party to boost their levels. I don't use it solely on those 3, I use it on those three until they've caught up and then I use it on everybody. And by then I have a lot of characters to use it on.

I believe the reason of late-ish joining time but worse stats is a valid reason not to use Tormod, but what do I know?

And I'm not shunning other mages. I just think that Soren's statistical and joining time advantage make him the best choice for me. And, like I said, I have way too many characters in my party anyway and that's with only one mage.

Besides, paladins>>>>>>mages. I use a lot of the horse riding maniacs. <3

And saying that I can't say Soren>Tormod because I haven't used him? I believe I said stats matter a lot for me and it's a fact that Soren is just plain better then Tormod stat-wise. Which is what I've been saying.
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Posted Image Posted ImageBrianna, lvl 20/20 Halberdier (retired)
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Puffy
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29.02.08: Until Trickster lives or Piper devours worlds.

KJ456
Feb 24 2007, 12:13 PM
Well, it'd depend on her staff level, of course. Though she'd probably be able to use physic right off the bat.

I'd expect her Staff level the same as her Knife level, but even if I had to have her use Mend, she's still be so much more useful. (After all, I tend to have extra Arms Scrolls...)

I can't say I use Cal as my main magical offense, because Tormod's MAG happened to be better, but she really makes a good target for ballistas, seeing as how she can surive two hits, plus whatever she dodges. Because of her amazing support options with Nephy and Tormod, I couldn't not use her.

The prepromos are pretty impressive, though, I'm starting to see.
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PM challenges are 99% kosher, unless something insane. I might still accept.
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LTC
Mar 12 2008, 05:53 PM
You're probably not attracted to topless women, either, Puffy.  It's called sexual orientation.
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KJ456
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Ahahahaha- *snort* -hahahaha- *snort* -heheheh

Yeah, except... Soren isn't better than Tormod, statwise. >_>

Well, he might be, depending on your stat priorities, but with Celerity, Tormod's the better unit if both are trained evenly.

EDIT: Knives don't have weapon levels. >_>
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Puffy
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29.02.08: Until Trickster lives or Piper devours worlds.

If it works for you, fine, but I can't wrap my mind around playing the same game the same way every time. It sounds like deliberate torture.

You still can't say Soren is better, without having ever used the others, because Tormod and Illy require different approaches. Illy doesn't have to be guarded most of the time, and Tormod can become the second-best healer in the game because he doesn't have the land speed of a tank. It's not a matter of Bastion and Soren, where there's not a sane reason in the world to use Bast, it's a matter of "Does Tormod fit your playing style?"

Tormod is faster than Soren, when you take everything into account, and can double with heavier tomes. The raw power that he lacks is made up for by the fact he can actually run up to the targets you want. If you play Tormod or Illy the way they were meant to be, not like Soren, then they are very much the best at what they do. I mean, Tormod can practically run with Paladins. That's impressive.

(Knives don't have weapon levels? Well, I recall Tauro and Haar coming as B/B, so Cal should at least get a C. Even if her weapon levels were all C's, if it meant Staff!Cal, I'd be happy.)
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PM challenges are 99% kosher, unless something insane. I might still accept.
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LTC
Mar 12 2008, 05:53 PM
You're probably not attracted to topless women, either, Puffy.  It's called sexual orientation.
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KJ456
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Ahahahaha- *snort* -hahahaha- *snort* -heheheh

Calill is B/B/B/Knives, IIRC. So yeah, she'd probably have a B in staves, too, and at least a C. Shame she's stuck with knives...
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Abyssal_Shrimp
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Still, that's 30-ish rounds where she won't be healing, and where you're using a unit with considerably weaker offense than... anyone, for the lone purpose of making them decent with one weapon. Not to mention that her being capable of attacking something often implies that there's also something to heal.


Why do you say 30-ish when I specifically stated it takes 23 rounds? And how hard it is to have Mist go heal someone and at the same time bait a close-by axemen, who has virtually no chance of hitting her and whom she'll double for 4 WEXP without a kill? Allowing her to attack again on her turn for 1-2 more hits, and thus actually reducing the number of rounds needed even more and allowing her to heal when needed as well?

Quote:
 
Illers can use thunder and elthunder off the bat, and she'll never need anything else that isn't staves.


Mist can use staves right off the bat, and she'll never need anything else that isn't swords.

See? I can do it too! >_>

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Well, if healing is your only source of exp, good luck getting a valk before... chapter 20-something. Or at all, unless you heal every turn someone is hurt.


Um... of course you do. That's how you level up healers. Then they're the utility stuff like Ward, whose's sole purpose is probablhy to pump about 20 EXP into Mist when she can't attack. I find with a bit of BEXP, Mist will promote at the same time than anyone else. She promoted during chapter 17 both times, and I didn't give her more than 3-5 levels worth of BEXP.

Quote:
 
Unpromoted Ilyana is also much better than you claim. In fact, the only magic user whose bases are better is Calill, all things considered. Soren deals crap damage until his magic catches up, Tormod's bases are almost as low as Illers', except he joins 8 chapters later, while Bastian... is Bastian.


Soren will have well caught up in Magic by the time Ilyana joins ; he can easily be about 8/0 by then, at which he has 10.2 Mag as opposed to Ilyana's 8 base. He'll also have 10.8 Speed as opposed to Ilyana's 9 base. He's also having more HP, Skl, Lck, Def and Res by various magic. So all in all, he ends losing in... Str, which he makes up for with higher Mag and Spd. And given his growths, he will not lose this lead. He's dominating Ilyana through the entire game.

Quote:
 
Illers will drawing wexp from the bountiful staff pool, while Mist'll have to compete with everyone for wexp.


Actually, since she doesn't kill, she can suck up WEXP from others kills. Which doesn't hurt her nor the other fighters in the slightest.

Quote:
 
The only mounted units she could be argued to be better than at equal levels are Haar and the healers, and that's debatable. She makes a useful unit, sure, but not necessarily a good support, due to a lack of lategame usefulness.


Titania's high level is earning her a level lead if she's used. For comparison's sake, level use ??/15 Titania and 20/15 Marcia :

Titania : HP 44.2, Str 18.3, Mag 7.5, Skl 21.4, Spd 21, Lck 17.3, Def 16.6, Res 13.3
Marcia : HP 39.95, Str 21.6, Mag 7.8, Skl 23.5, Spd 26.95, Lck 15.6, Def 17.2, Res 17.7

The Strength issue is easily partly taken care of given she has axes and Marcia doesn't. She also has support - like Mist, which closes the Atk gap. She loses AS, but 21 Spd is doubling a decent amount of stuff. She's weaker defensive-wise by a small bit as 10 avoid and 1 Def/4 Res beats 4 HP.

She's losing at equivalent level, but that isn't taking into account that Marcia is underleveled while Titania has a serious lead and should be ahaead of the party a lot of the time. I'm not saying she's better ; I'm not seeing Titania as good as certain people claim her to be, but she has an incredible early-game advantage and is only slightly lagging behind in late-game, and again she's got the whole mounted thing going for her, which is to consider as opposed to any non-mounted units - all mounteds are pretty much uber in FE9 anyway.

Quote:
 
Axes, sure, but wouldn't swords be a better secondary, seeing as they are more versatile and you still have access to the strongest physical weapons? Bows'd also offer some nice ranged attack. Lances give little axes don't.


What exactly makes swords more versatile than lances? Nothing really. And using bows is just depriving you of counterattacks. Use a Hand Axe/Short Axe/Javelin, etc if you absolutely need a ranged attack.
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Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 25 2007, 12:30 AM
Why do you say 30-ish when I specifically stated it takes 23 rounds? And how hard it is to have Mist go heal someone and at the same time bait a close-by axemen, who has virtually no chance of hitting her and whom she'll double for 4 WEXP without a kill? Allowing her to attack again on her turn for 1-2 more hits, and thus actually reducing the number of rounds needed even more and allowing her to heal when needed as well?

Well, I doubt she can DA everything, but I had forgotten about counterattacks. Yeah, she probably won't take too long, then. 1 and a third of a steel sword... It still sounds way faster than I tend to gain weapon levels. >_>

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 25 2007, 12:30 AM
Mist can use staves right off the bat, and she'll never need anything else that isn't swords.

See? I can do it too! >_>

Yeah, but... I'm sure I had a point when I said that, but I forgot what. Er... she still needs to build her staff level? <_<

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 25 2007, 12:30 AM
Um... of course you do. That's how you level up healers. Then they're the utility stuff like Ward, whose's sole purpose is probablhy to pump about 20 EXP into Mist when she can't attack. I find with a bit of BEXP, Mist will promote at the same time than anyone else. She promoted during chapter 17 both times, and I didn't give her more than 3-5 levels worth of BEXP.

Well, I tried a playthrough where I didn't give Rhys bexp, but still healed whenever anyone hurt was in range. He promoted halfway through chapter 24. Admittedly, without using things like ward staves, but... >_>

In any case, if Mist were to be given those levels with bexp, it would be fair to assume that Ilyana could be given equal attention to a similar effect, no? And considering that you also need to work on Mist's sword level, I'd still say Illers takes considerably less attention, overall.

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 25 2007, 12:30 AM
Soren will have well caught up in Magic by the time Ilyana joins ; he can easily be about 8/0 by then, at which he has 10.2 Mag as opposed to Ilyana's 8 base. He'll also have 10.8 Speed as opposed to Ilyana's 9 base. He's also having more HP, Skl, Lck, Def and Res by various magic. So all in all, he ends losing in... Str, which he makes up for with higher Mag and Spd. And given his growths, he will not lose this lead. He's dominating Ilyana through the entire game.

That's fairly beside the point I was making, which is that Ilyana is not particularly weak around joining level. There's also little reason to only using one mage, and for the time being, Ilyana is the only other one. Not to mention that upon promotion, she'll be put into a role entirely different from the one you're attributing Soren, like I said. Soren, given the same effort to raising his staff level Mist requires to promote along the rest of your team and gain a high enough sword level to use Sonic Swords, also dominates Mist.

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 25 2007, 12:30 AM
The Strength issue is easily partly taken care of given she has axes and Marcia doesn't. She also has support - like Mist, which closes the Atk gap. She loses AS, but 21 Spd is doubling a decent amount of stuff. She's weaker defensive-wise by a small bit as 10 avoid and 1 Def/4 Res beats 4 HP.

10 less avoid is actually quite a bit at Marcia's dodge level, considering FEs imbalanced hit system. Considering that her def/res is also better, I'd say that Marcia's defensive edge is fairly notable. And Marcia has supports, too, though this is quite a bit off the current topic.

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 25 2007, 12:30 AM
She's losing at equivalent level, but that isn't taking into account that Marcia is underleveled while Titania has a serious lead and should be ahaead of the party a lot of the time. I'm not saying she's better ; I'm not seeing Titania as good as certain people claim her to be, but she has an incredible early-game advantage and is only slightly lagging behind in late-game,

Well, she might be able to pull through with her overleveledness for a fair while agains other promoted units, but what of other prepromos or laguz? Both serve largely the same role. Not to mention that you're arguing against overleveling Illers for a few chapters, probably using less exp overall than Titania needs to stay useful, and then slapping staves on her, no longer violating anyone else's exp pools at all, while still gaining a fair amount of exp.

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 25 2007, 12:30 AM
What exactly makes swords more versatile than lances? Nothing really. And using bows is just depriving you of counterattacks. Use a Hand Axe/Short Axe/Javelin, etc if you absolutely need a ranged attack.

Well, there's... eh, nothing really, yeah. I'm just used to FE having more variety in swords than anything. But there's still the fact that they're more accurate than lances. True, lances are more powerful, but axes even moreso. And sure, bows ruin your ability to counterattack, but their ranged attack is still better, and there might be cases where nothing could attack you at melee range. How often would you have any reason to use a thrown lance over a thrown axe?
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Abyssal_Shrimp
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In any case, if Mist were to be given those levels with bexp, it would be fair to assume that Ilyana could be given equal attention to a similar effect, no? And considering that you also need to work on Mist's sword level, I'd still say Illers takes considerably less attention, overall.


She takes less attention, but not considerably less, and she can't do what you want her to do, heal, as soon as Mist can, and Mist ends up a better healer anyway. And since she's not fighting, dropping Ilyana gives more EXP to the units I actually want to fight.

Quote:
 
That's fairly beside the point I was making, which is that Ilyana is not particularly weak around joining level. There's also little reason to only using one mage, and for the time being, Ilyana is the only other one.


Yes there is, and it's that she doesn't fare really well in the end, so using her in the beginning robs EXP from the people I want to use as actual fighting units (Ike, Oscar, Soren, Boyd, Marcia, Brom, Nepehenee, Kieran, Jill, etc.)

Quote:
 
Not to mention that upon promotion, she'll be put into a role entirely different from the one you're attributing Soren, like I said.


Or I could use Mist, who's already a healer. And doesn't require me to have her suck up fighting EXP from actual fighting units.

Quote:
 
Soren, given the same effort to raising his staff level Mist requires to promote along the rest of your team and gain a high enough sword level to use Sonic Swords, also dominates Mist.


Nope. Mist still has the mounted movement advantage.

Quote:
 
10 less avoid is actually quite a bit at Marcia's dodge level, considering FEs imbalanced hit system. Considering that her def/res is also better, I'd say that Marcia's defensive edge is fairly notable.


I'm skeptical about that ; are we sure FE9's using the same dual-RN hit system? Regardless, that was still taking it into account, and yes, Marcia has a decent defensive advantage, I didn't claim the opposite. Yet Marcia is considered an excellent character, so Titania being not far behind says a lot.

Quote:
 
Well, she might be able to pull through with her overleveledness for a fair while agains other promoted units, but what of other prepromos or laguz? Both serve largely the same role.


lol, Laguz. Those things who can't fight half the time? And other prepromos? They're inferior to Titania, really. And, save for Shinon whose bases are even more horrible, no other prepromo joins your team until... Stefan, IIRC. And yeah, crappy class, only swords, lower move, etc.

Quote:
 
Not to mention that you're arguing against overleveling Illers for a few chapters, probably using less exp overall than Titania needs to stay useful, and then slapping staves on her, no longer violating anyone else's exp pools at all, while still gaining a fair amount of exp.


Titania is already overleveled, you don't need to do a darn thing about it and she's already useful. Ilyana is underleveled. See the difference? For her to get overleveled, you have to make her catch up AND overcare about her. All of that for a healer that's decent at best, while Mist is a better healer and doesn't need to get overleveled to get useful at healing, meaningthe amount of effort isn't really bigger.

Quote:
 
But there's still the fact that they're more accurate than lances. True, lances are more powerful, but axes even moreso.


Titania doesn't have accuracy issues. She'll take the extra might from lances anyday.

Quote:
 
And sure, bows ruin your ability to counterattack, but their ranged attack is still better, and there might be cases where nothing could attack you at melee range.


This is really too drawn out just to find an adequate use for bows.

Quote:
 
How often would you have any reason to use a thrown lance over a thrown axe?


Huh, I dunno, when attacking anything that's using a sword?
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Puffy
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29.02.08: Until Trickster lives or Piper devours worlds.

As for laguz being "things who can't fight half the time," you can always equip a Demi Band. I can't speak for any laguz besides Muarim, but the small cut in stats is nothing. High MOV, SPD, STR, HP, DEF... The RES isn't that good, but he can take the hits. Enemies love to target them, even when they're transformed, but all the better if it means drawing fire away from weaker units.
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><p align="center"><tr><td>Posted Image<br>20/7<br>Berserker</td><td>Posted Image<br>20/17<br>Falcoknight</td><td>Posted Image<br>20/8<br>Bishop</td><td>Posted Image<br>20/6<br>Halberdier</td><td>Posted Image<br>20/1<br>Swordmaster</td> </tr> <tr><td colspan="5"><br>[size=-1]Posted ImagePosted Image<br>
PM challenges are 99% kosher, unless something insane. I might still accept.
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LTC
Mar 12 2008, 05:53 PM
You're probably not attracted to topless women, either, Puffy.  It's called sexual orientation.
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Abyssal_Shrimp
I broke my shades!

Yeah, but by the time you get a demi band, Laguz stats aren't anything exceptionnal anymore. Not to mention the fact that they can't use weapons and are stuck with their natural weapons which aren't very impressive.
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Puffy
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29.02.08: Until Trickster lives or Piper devours worlds.

Muarim joins at a solid level for ass-kicking. Seeing as how I think it's his Demi Band. Laguz aren't godly, but they're not less powerful than anyone else. The lack of weapons doesn't hurt them all that much, if you're using them as tanks/bait/task force/ballista-killers/etc. Muarim tends to 2/3 hit-KO anything, anyway, and he doubles easily.

The bird laguz seem a bit more pointless, though, because of all the bowmen/ballistas/lack of need to go places fast. If I only have one Full Guard, it's probably not going to them.
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PM challenges are 99% kosher, unless something insane. I might still accept.
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LTC
Mar 12 2008, 05:53 PM
You're probably not attracted to topless women, either, Puffy.  It's called sexual orientation.
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Abyssal_Shrimp
I broke my shades!

Well, of all Laguz, I recall the Tigers being among, if not the best, and Muarim's growths are scary. (Though IIRC, Ranulf and Mordecai were as good or better than him - I need to have a look at that tier list again) >>

And anyway, I think you can't equip a laguz both a demi band and a full guard. <_<
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Puffy
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29.02.08: Until Trickster lives or Piper devours worlds.

Well, that bit with the birdies was more general-use, without a DB. But it does demonstrate the fact that they're rather miserable. Tibarn the Sexy and Naesala the Sorta Hot being the obvious exceptions. Anyway, yes, the issue is that you can't double them up, and bowmen are more common than fire!mages.

Ranulf gets rave reviews, it seems, and looking purely at his averages, he's a very good quality character. The problem is, of course, that having more than one fighter!laguz means somebody gets downtime. If you're already using Muarim or Mordy, they might be in the 15's, as opposed to Ran's 9. It's a larger bother than usual to level laguz, and while Ran can hold his own, I think he's only practical if you haven't raised any other beasties before him.

In any case, to hell with tiers. It's not a fighting game, and unless it takes into account actual cheapness strategy, it's not relevant to my interests.
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PM challenges are 99% kosher, unless something insane. I might still accept.
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LTC
Mar 12 2008, 05:53 PM
You're probably not attracted to topless women, either, Puffy.  It's called sexual orientation.
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Abyssal_Shrimp
I broke my shades!

Depends on what you mean by strategy.
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Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 25 2007, 01:52 AM
She takes less attention, but not considerably less, and she can't do what you want her to do, heal, as soon as Mist can, and Mist ends up a better healer anyway.

All of that for a healer that's decent at best, while Mist is a better healer and doesn't need to get overleveled to get useful at healing, meaningthe amount of effort isn't really bigger.

Mist is a better healer in the end? How so, exactly?

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 25 2007, 01:52 AM
Yes there is, and it's that she doesn't fare really well in the end, so using her in the beginning robs EXP from the people I want to use as actual fighting units (Ike, Oscar, Soren, Boyd, Marcia, Brom, Nepehenee, Kieran, Jill, etc.)

Or I could use Mist, who's already a healer. And doesn't require me to have her suck up fighting EXP from actual fighting units.

Illers doesn't take so much exp that it actually causes a notable strain on your other units.

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 25 2007, 01:52 AM
Nope. Mist still has the mounted movement advantage.

Well, along that line of logic, Ilyana still has Shade and the strength to actually lift tomes and whatnot.

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 25 2007, 01:52 AM
I'm skeptical about that ; are we sure FE9's using the same dual-RN hit system? Regardless, that was still taking it into account, and yes, Marcia has a decent defensive advantage, I didn't claim the opposite.

I'm pretty sure it does, but not completely certain. And I felt that "slight" was too weak an adjective in this case.

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 25 2007, 01:52 AM
lol, Laguz. Those things who can't fight half the time?

Half the time? Depends on your playing style, I suppose. Lethe's transformation gauge seems to, at worst, run out slightly faster than a battle, personally.

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 25 2007, 01:52 AM
And other prepromos? They're inferior to Titania, really. And, save for Shinon whose bases are even more horrible, no other prepromo joins your team until... Stefan, IIRC. And yeah, crappy class, only swords, lower move, etc.

Stefan, probably. Devdan... yes. But Tanith? Calill? Most of the late-game ones? I wouldn't say so.

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 25 2007, 01:52 AM
Titania is already overleveled, you don't need to do a darn thing about it and she's already useful. Ilyana is underleveled. See the difference? For her to get overleveled, you have to make her catch up AND overcare about her.

But making her overlevel and stay there until promotion still takes less exp than keeping Titania up there. Not to mention that you're spending it on a unit whose usefulness will ultimately drop pretty far, instead of using a bit of effort to set up a unit for the rest of the game.

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 25 2007, 01:52 AM
Titania doesn't have accuracy issues. She'll take the extra might from lances anyday.

But axes have even more power. What is the point of combining them with lances inste-

...Half this argument is suddenly about Titania. Half of which is about her weapon types. Now do you see why I don't really care for debating supports? >_>

EDIT: Tiers are based on overall usefulness, IIRC. And Ranulf's level 9 stats are better than what your typical used laguz would have by his joining, IIRC.
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Puffy
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29.02.08: Until Trickster lives or Piper devours worlds.

Cheapness, obviously. Moreso that with the advent of skills, it's more a matter of using a character properly than them having rad stats. In an apples/oranges sort of game, I don't like it when people try to apply tiers to characters that don't work in the same way. If it's a system that forces all characters to be stripped of skills, it's a different story, but not that applicable to one playing the game normally.

If a character can fill a niche you happen to need filled, it will rise above any other statistical inferiorities in its value, I suppose I'm saying.
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PM challenges are 99% kosher, unless something insane. I might still accept.
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LTC
Mar 12 2008, 05:53 PM
You're probably not attracted to topless women, either, Puffy.  It's called sexual orientation.
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KJ456
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Ahahahaha- *snort* -hahahaha- *snort* -heheheh

I do believe tiers take that into account, actually. At least GFAQs'.
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Puffy
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29.02.08: Until Trickster lives or Piper devours worlds.

It's too dependant on playing style, though.
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LTC
Mar 12 2008, 05:53 PM
You're probably not attracted to topless women, either, Puffy.  It's called sexual orientation.
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KJ456
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Ahahahaha- *snort* -hahahaha- *snort* -heheheh

They try to take that into account, too, but that's obviously impossible to perfectly implement.
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Puffy
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29.02.08: Until Trickster lives or Piper devours worlds.

Precisely why I can't take it seriously. A tier list won't reflect the way I (or anyone) plays FE, so it's a petty thing to be talking about, as opposed to numbers.
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><p align="center"><tr><td>Posted Image<br>20/7<br>Berserker</td><td>Posted Image<br>20/17<br>Falcoknight</td><td>Posted Image<br>20/8<br>Bishop</td><td>Posted Image<br>20/6<br>Halberdier</td><td>Posted Image<br>20/1<br>Swordmaster</td> </tr> <tr><td colspan="5"><br>[size=-1]Posted ImagePosted Image<br>
PM challenges are 99% kosher, unless something insane. I might still accept.
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LTC
Mar 12 2008, 05:53 PM
You're probably not attracted to topless women, either, Puffy.  It's called sexual orientation.
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Abyssal_Shrimp
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Mist is a better healer in the end? How so, exactly?


Movement rate, higher staff rank, better overall stats.

Quote:
 
Illers doesn't take so much exp that it actually causes a notable strain on your other units.


14 levels of EXP seems a decent amount to me.

Quote:
 
Well, along that line of logic, Ilyana still has Shade and the strength to actually lift tomes and whatnot.


Mist (or Soren, for that matter) will be quicker than Ilyana anyway, so Str isn't relevant much. Shade's ok, but I already adressed that elsewhere, and it's pretty wacky to bring back Ilyana in an argument where I'm countering a comparison you made between Soren and Mist.

Quote:
 
I'm pretty sure it does, but not completely certain. And I felt that "slight" was too weak an adjective in this case.


I guess I'd need to look into that.

Quote:
 
Stefan, probably. Devdan... yes. But Tanith? Calill? Most of the late-game ones? I wouldn't say so.


Tanith? Certainly. Calill? Close. Titania has much better defenses and supports, while she probably wins offense by a bit. And all of those don't exist in before that and can't flautn all the early game advantage Titania has.

Quote:
 
But making her overlevel and stay there until promotion still takes less exp than keeping Titania up there. Not to mention that you're spending it on a unit whose usefulness will ultimately drop pretty far, instead of using a bit of effort to set up a unit for the rest of the game.


I'm not sure which, but you're either seriously underestimating how EXP Ilyana takes to overlevel, or overestimating the amount you need to keep a little bit of Titania's already existing huge level advantage. And yet again, Titania's usefulness doesn't drop pretty far. Not really more than Ilyana, at any rate.

Quote:
 
But axes have even more power. What is the point of combining them with lances inste-


Weapon triangle control.

Quote:
 
...Half this argument is suddenly about Titania. Half of which is about her weapon types. Now do you see why I don't really care for debating supports? >_>


I've debated more stuff than I can count in this topic anyway. >_>

Quote:
 
Cheapness, obviously. Moreso that with the advent of skills, it's more a matter of using a character properly than them having rad stats. In an apples/oranges sort of game, I don't like it when people try to apply tiers to characters that don't work in the same way. If it's a system that forces all characters to be stripped of skills, it's a different story, but not that applicable to one playing the game normally.


You know, as much as we can make it out to be, FE charas have three types of roles you need. Some kill stuff, some steal stuff, and some heal stuff. Other abilities they have will only ultimately make them better in any three of those categories.
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Puffy
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29.02.08: Until Trickster lives or Piper devours worlds.

Not so much. There's tanks, for one, and one can play the game fine without taking advantage of thieves. If you use every character in those three same ways, somebody's losing potential.
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LTC
Mar 12 2008, 05:53 PM
You're probably not attracted to topless women, either, Puffy.  It's called sexual orientation.
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Abyssal_Shrimp
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Puffy
Feb 25 2007, 12:30 AM
Not so much. There's tanks, for one, and one can play the game fine without taking advantage of thieves. If you use every character in those three same ways, somebody's losing potential.

Or is it? If you're not using a thief, you're surely using somebody else to get the chests and stuff, and he's doing the stealing stuff. Or if you're not even getting the chest, well you just removed one of those roles, so I don't see how it makes the game more varied.

Tanks ultimetely serve to kill stuff anyway. And I prolly wouldn't use a tanky character if he couldn't kill stuff, unless he was invincible or something.

What is this "potential" I'm losing? I'm curious to hear it.
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Puffy
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29.02.08: Until Trickster lives or Piper devours worlds.

I mean the potential in characters. You're not in a Fire Emblem game yet, so you don't apply.

If you have a character that isn't taking any damage, even if he can't hurt anything, he's being useful. He's not killing, stealing, or healing, but there's a lot of things that he's ensuring will happen. There's a lot of value in a character that can halt enemy advances and draw fire.

Skills can be excessively situational (and powerful), take Calill for example. She's not that much better than any other mage, until you fight an enemy with a skill of his own. If you're only having Cal on nuke patrol, you've eliminated her unique usage. That's "potential".

I don't see how stealing even comes into the fundamentals of a character's usefulness, because it's such a minor thing. Using Chest/Door keys is something anybody can do; it's only a role if the character is a high-MOV task force sort of guy, and that's still not nescessarily filling the role of item gains. It's bizarre that something like this would be placed over, say, defense.
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><p align="center"><tr><td>Posted Image<br>20/7<br>Berserker</td><td>Posted Image<br>20/17<br>Falcoknight</td><td>Posted Image<br>20/8<br>Bishop</td><td>Posted Image<br>20/6<br>Halberdier</td><td>Posted Image<br>20/1<br>Swordmaster</td> </tr> <tr><td colspan="5"><br>[size=-1]Posted ImagePosted Image<br>
PM challenges are 99% kosher, unless something insane. I might still accept.
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LTC
Mar 12 2008, 05:53 PM
You're probably not attracted to topless women, either, Puffy.  It's called sexual orientation.
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Abyssal_Shrimp
I broke my shades!

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If you have a character that isn't taking any damage, even if he can't hurt anything, he's being useful. He's not killing, stealing, or healing, but there's a lot of things that he's ensuring will happen. There's a lot of value in a character that can halt enemy advances and draw fire.


Having them draw fire will allow you to better kill them with your other character after. I don't see what use tanking would have if your goal was not to win a fight.

Quote:
 
Skills can be excessively situational (and powerful), take Calill for example. She's not that much better than any other mage, until you fight an enemy with a skill of his own. If you're only having Cal on nuke patrol, you've eliminated her unique usage. That's "potential".


So what you're meaning is that I should not fight with Calill unless the enemy has a skill? So I can flaunt making use of her unique property? Instead of, I dunno, having her fight anyway and take advantage of her skill when I can?

Skills let units do what they do better, period. Nihil, for Calill, has a limited usage - see how I replaced "unique" with "limited"? It will allow her to fare better against enemies who have skills as opposed to other people. But ultimately, there's only so many foes in the game who have skills - mainly the bosses.

Seems to me someone who doesn't use Calill to fight all out unless her skill comes into play is the one who's not using her "full potential", which stays fighting the enemy.

Quote:
 
I don't see how stealing even comes into the fundamentals of a character's usefulness, because it's such a minor thing. Using Chest/Door keys is something anybody can do; it's only a role if the character is a high-MOV task force sort of guy, and that's still not nescessarily filling the role of item gains. It's bizarre that something like this would be placed over, say, defense.


Well, let's remove stealing then. That certainly didn't improve the versatility of units anyway. Just comes back to killing and healing.
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Puffy
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29.02.08: Until Trickster lives or Piper devours worlds.

There are lots of missions where you simply need to get from point A to point B. A pure tank kills, but by proxy; by that logic, a healer is a killer offensive fighter simply by keeping people who kill alive, and that makes very little sense, in context. When you get to such generalizations, nothing and everything is crazy and insane. A tank is a tank is a tank, and that's it.

In any case, the keyword, so much as your "limited" is my "only". Read it; I'm not trying to say something so absurd, to only use Calill when Nihil works, so much as I'm saying Nihil makes her work differently than Soren, and in more obvious cases, that you can't possibly judge certain characters on the same scale. When you make Lethe try to fill Muarim's shoes (seeing as how they're both feral laguz, and can both kill things), you get chunky salsa. Is this clearer?

By taking things to the extreme, you lose a lot, both ways.
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PM challenges are 99% kosher, unless something insane. I might still accept.
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LTC
Mar 12 2008, 05:53 PM
You're probably not attracted to topless women, either, Puffy.  It's called sexual orientation.
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KJ456
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Ahahahaha- *snort* -hahahaha- *snort* -heheheh

Abyssal Shrimp
Feb 25 2007, 06:26 AM
Movement rate, higher staff rank, better overall stats.

Movement rate, yes, staff rank, hardly except early on, overall stats... eh, I wouldn't say so, really. Sure, she's better in raw stats, but she also depends considerably more on her strength than Illers. Who still has Shade working strongly in her favor.

Abyssal Shrimp
Feb 25 2007, 06:26 AM
14 levels of EXP seems a decent amount to me.

Well, some of that would come from bexp, of course. Preferably more than Mist'd take, I admit. Maybe I just have plenty to spare on her because I don't use most bexp-dependent characters like Rolf...

Abyssal Shrimp
Feb 25 2007, 06:26 AM
it's pretty wacky to bring back Ilyana in an argument where I'm countering a comparison you made between Soren and Mist.

I was just turning the logic you used against my comparison against your own. >_>

Abyssal Shrimp
Feb 25 2007, 06:26 AM
And all of those don't exist in before that and can't flautn all the early game advantage Titania has.

No, but the fact that a character was useful earlier on is a pretty poor reasoning for using them over a better character. No better than just liking their personality more, at least.

Abyssal Shrimp
Feb 25 2007, 06:26 AM
I'm not sure which, but you're either seriously underestimating how EXP Ilyana takes to overlevel, or overestimating the amount you need to keep a little bit of Titania's already existing huge level advantage. And yet again, Titania's usefulness doesn't drop pretty far. Not really more than Ilyana, at any rate.

Underestimating the exp, I'm starting to think. But Illers is certainly a better lategame healer than Titania is a lategame mounted physical unit.

Abyssal Shrimp
Feb 25 2007, 06:26 AM
Weapon triangle control.

Which swords don't give?
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Abyssal_Shrimp
I broke my shades!

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In any case, the keyword, so much as your "limited" is my "only". Read it; I'm not trying to say something so absurd, to only use Calill when Nihil works, so much as I'm saying Nihil makes her work differently than Soren, and in more obvious cases, that you can't possibly judge certain characters on the same scale.


Thing is, the game is finite. It's actually possible to determine how much Nihil will help Calill and how much Adept will help Soren when you make the comparison based on the enemies. Which does help determine who is actually the most effective in the game, even when taking skills into account. They work differently, but both give fighting bonuses that ARE sizeable and that can be evaluated.

Now, what seem to have understood from what I said is that the point of the game is simply to dash through and nuke stuff, and disregard everything else. It's not what I mean. But regardless of how much you'll argue against it, the whole damn game is about winning the battles. There are different strategies to achieve your goal, but they're not all equally effective. This is how you judge a character's utility. It will take into account stats, skills, abilities, etc, and judge how much he can contribute to the player. Sure character X might be more suited for task Y in strategy Z than character W, but if strategy A works better and makes better use of character W, character X isn't getting much out of being better in an inferior strategy. If this was an MMO or something, then you'd probably be right, but it isn't.

That doesn't stop you from playing the game however you damn want. But if you're using a less effective tactic, that doesn't mean it makes the characters you use in it better.

I'll do KJ's on next post, so doublepost warning or something <<
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Abyssal_Shrimp
I broke my shades!

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Movement rate, yes, staff rank, hardly except early on, overall stats... eh, I wouldn't say so, really. Sure, she's better in raw stats, but she also depends considerably more on her strength than Illers. Who still has Shade working strongly in her favor.


Ilyana's never going surpass Mist in staff level anyway, so it means she can use better staffs earlier. Mist relies on Str for offense. I said she was a better healer. I still don't consider Shade anything reliable, especially when your allies will start being able to one-round foes and Ilyana will not because of doubling issues, which is exactly a case of Shade not working.

Quote:
 
Well, some of that would come from bexp, of course. Preferably more than Mist'd take, I admit. Maybe I just have plenty to spare on her because I don't use most bexp-dependent characters like Rolf...


Seriously. When she'll hit the high 10s unpromoted very early, she'll start requiring much more than your other units to level. Mist will still need the same staff uses and never sucks on your team's combat EXP. Plus, she doesn't need to rush to promotion to start healing, anyway.

Quote:
 
I was just turning the logic you used against my comparison against your own. >_>


So you countered my point as to wny Mist was a beter healer than Soren by saying Ilyana is a better healer... than Soren? What does that prove? Because this is who I was referring to.

Quote:
 
No, but the fact that a character was useful earlier on is a pretty poor reasoning for using them over a better character. No better than just liking their personality more, at least.


But they're not necessarily better ; then again, we'd need to compare them all to prove our point, and I don't feel like digging stats right now.

Quote:
 
Underestimating the exp, I'm starting to think. But Illers is certainly a better lategame healer than Titania is a lategame mounted physical unit.


Yes, but seeing how dominant are mounted physicals in this game, she's still very good. as an overall combat unit.

Quote:
 
Which swords don't give?


Umm, yes, but lances are better, so why bother with swords?
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Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 25 2007, 08:01 AM
Ilyana's never going surpass Mist in staff level anyway, so it means she can use better staffs earlier. Mist relies on Str for offense. I said she was a better healer.

Ah. I'd still rather have a healer who could actually deal reasonable damage if needed than one with a few more ranks in staves and a small magic advantage, personally.

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 25 2007, 08:01 AM
I still don't consider Shade anything reliable, especially when your allies will start being able to one-round foes and Ilyana will not because of doubling issues, which is exactly a case of Shade not working.

Seems to work for me... While I don't know exactly how Shade works, Illers has never died on me. MM and Vicas have seen me play strategy games, they know how much that means. >_>

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 25 2007, 08:01 AM
Seriously. When she'll hit the high 10s unpromoted very early, she'll start requiring much more than your other units to level. Mist will still need the same staff uses and never sucks on your team's combat EXP. Plus, she doesn't need to rush to promotion to start healing, anyway.

Eh... Maybe I just don't care for early-game exp that much since I use relatively few early game units, come to think of it...

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 25 2007, 08:01 AM
So you countered my point as to wny Mist was a beter healer than Soren by saying Ilyana is a better healer... than Soren? What does that prove? Because this is who I was referring to.

You originally said Soren was a better healer than Ilyana.

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 25 2007, 08:01 AM
But they're not necessarily better ; then again, we'd need to compare them all to prove our point, and I don't feel like digging stats right now.

Well, you agreed Tanith is, for one. Calill is debatably so. Ranulf joins fairly early in the lategame, and Geoffrey not too late in it.

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 25 2007, 08:01 AM
Yes, but seeing how dominant are mounted physicals in this game, she's still very good. as an overall combat unit.

Overall, yes. Lategame, not so much. The game is very generous in regards to mounted units.

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 25 2007, 08:01 AM
Umm, yes, but lances are better, so why bother with swords?

...Because axes are even better, and the one thing lances have over axes, swords do better?
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Abyssal_Shrimp
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Ah. I'd still rather have a healer who could actually deal reasonable damage if needed than one with a few more ranks in staves and a small magic advantage, personally


Which is what the Sonic Sword is for.

Quote:
 
You originally said Soren was a better healer than Ilyana.


I did? Dun remember that. Though I'd say he's probably as good as Ilyana.

Quote:
 
Well, you agreed Tanith is, for one. Calill is debatably so. Ranulf joins fairly early in the lategame, and Geoffrey not too late in it.


Wait. I didn't agree Tanith was better, more like the opposite. I meant Titania was better than Tanith. Look back to how you worded your statement and how I responded to it. >_>

Quote:
 
Overall, yes. Lategame, not so much. The game is very generous in regards to mounted units.


Yeah, and Titania is one of those, and she still stays better than quite a few of them. I don't see a reason not to use a lot of mounted units if they're better than the unmounted ones.

Quote:
 
...Because axes are even better, and the one thing lances have over axes, swords do better?


That reasoning is flawed. I already said accuracy didn't have much weight since Titania didn't have hitting issues. which means you're only gonna use lances because they can actually have MORE might than axes against swords. Swords never have more might than axes under any circumstances.

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Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 25 2007, 11:38 PM
Which is what the Sonic Sword is for.

But you have to put a fair bit of effort into her offense before she can use that, whereas Illers' will always be there.

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 25 2007, 11:38 PM
I did? Dun remember that. Though I'd say he's probably as good as Ilyana.

Well, you said he totally dominates her. I had assumed that'd involve healing, especially since that was the use for her I was arguing.

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 25 2007, 11:38 PM
Wait. I didn't agree Tanith was better, more like the opposite. I meant Titania was better than Tanith. Look back to how you worded your statement and how I responded to it. >_>

Hm? ...Wait, you didn't. Er, care to elaborate why? She joins at a higher level, with better bases than Titania's averages by then, has the potential for Earth/Earth supports and arguably has the best skill in the game.

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 25 2007, 11:38 PM
Yeah, and Titania is one of those, and she still stays better than quite a few of them.

Hm? I don't recall you disagreeing with my point about Haar being the only one she could be argued to be better than... Which, then?

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 25 2007, 11:38 PM
That reasoning is flawed. I already said accuracy didn't have much weight since Titania didn't have hitting issues. which means you're only gonna use lances because they can actually have MORE might than axes against swords. Swords never have more might than axes under any circumstances.

Well, yeah, they're probably better for her in that case. You just worded it as if it was the globally best set.
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Abyssal_Shrimp
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But you have to put a fair bit of effort into her offense before she can use that, whereas Illers' will always be there.


Right. Instead, you have to pour effort into her healing capabilities, whereas Mist's will always be there. Coincidentally, since we're debating who makes the best healer, I'd think it's more important.

Quote:
 
Well, you said he totally dominates her. I had assumed that'd involve healing, especially since that was the use for her I was arguing.


Well... he'll have a level lead, better magic, better avoid against Shade. I wouldn't say she wins out.

Quote:
 
Hm? ...Wait, you didn't. Er, care to elaborate why? She joins at a higher level, with better bases than Titania's averages by then, has the potential for Earth/Earth supports and arguably has the best skill in the game.

Hm? I don't recall you disagreeing with my point about Haar being the only one she could be argued to be better than... Which, then?


Hmm. After reviewing the prepromo list and Tanith's stats, she's probably at least equal to her. Calill and Geoffrey would be relatively close.

Quote:
 
Well, yeah, they're probably better for her in that case. You just worded it as if it was the globally best set.


You won't find many (if any) occasions where the swords' 10 hit outweight the Lances 2 might.
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Serene Steelzard
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... uh-huh.

*munches on popcorn*

Watching pointless debate is fun.

Oh, and of course Mist is a better healer then Ilyana, Mist will have a higher staff level earlier because of healing when unpromoted. Ilyana has to catch up, and it seems to take forever to get weapon levels up in FE9. Plus, Mist has a horse and mounted units are amazing in FE9.

Now, if you're talking about being a fighter, Ilyana comes out top due to having way better fighting capabilites then Mist.

If you want a more offensive character who can also heal, use Ilyana. If you want a better healer, use Mist.
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Abyssal_Shrimp
I broke my shades!

I just took a look at the "official" tier list those guys are having over GFAQs.

o_O

A lot of people here wouldn't like how low is Rolf. <<
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Ahahahaha- *snort* -hahahaha- *snort* -heheheh

Well, he is basically a weaker Astrid who joins a bit earlier and has a crit boost. >_>
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Abyssal_Shrimp
I broke my shades!

He's weaker than Astrid, no question. I don't think he's very good, because Snipers have that very annoying tendancy to not counterattack anything, but at first glance, I wouldn't have put him this low.

Though when you think about it, he does come absurdly underleveled and isn't better than most fighting units to make up for it...
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Tookie
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Pretend I put something witty here.

Port the list over here and let us tear it apart?
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Serene Steelzard
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... uh-huh.

Rolf is awesome when levelled up but he comes at a low level and so needs BEXP to survive for a while and you don't get that much BEXP in Hard mode IIRC.

He also has low base stats IIRC and is an archer/sniper so can only use one type of weapon and can't counter from range 1.

You also have bow users like Astrid who is a mounted unit and I think she turns out better on average but I don't know that for sure. And then you get the people who can use bows on promotion and such. <_<;;

*looks at what you've posted already*

....damn ye slow posting.
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Abyssal_Shrimp
I broke my shades!

Uh, ok, but before it...

DISCLAIMER : I did not take part in building that list at all. Don't kill me for what it contains.

Also, there's several, varying versions of the tier list with a few people being debated in them. This one is Reikken's over there.

FE9 tier list :

-Top-
Jill
Kieran
Oscar
Reyson
Titania

-High-
Ike
Boyd
Soren
Makalov
Marcia
Mist
Astrid
Tanith
Nephenee

-Upper Mid-
Brom
Volke
Geoffrey
Tormod
Zihark
Ilyana
Stefan
Calill
Mordecai

-Lower Mid-
Rhys
Ranulf
Muarim
Haar
Largo
Nasir
Gatrie
Sothe
Tauroneo
Devdan
Lethe
Mia

-Low-
Ena
Rolf
Janaff
Ulki
Shinon

-Bottom-
Elincia
Lucia
Bastian

It's all yours.
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Serene Steelzard
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... uh-huh.

Huh, I normally use only one Low character, one lower-mid character and the rest are upper mid and above. Hell, I use 4/5 of the top tier characters. O_o
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Ahahahaha- *snort* -hahahaha- *snort* -heheheh

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 26 2007, 02:59 PM
Right. Instead, you have to pour effort into her healing capabilities, whereas Mist's will always be there. Coincidentally, since we're debating who makes the best healer, I'd think it's more important.

Illers' healing takes less effort to get than Mist's offense, IMO, and will at any rate be around for considerably longer.

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 26 2007, 02:59 PM
Well... he'll have a level lead, better magic, better avoid against Shade. I wouldn't say she wins out.

I'd still say Shade beats his avoid, and he has better magic and a higher level against Mist, too. Not to mention that he has a considerable offense he'd be neglecting to work on using staves.

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 26 2007, 02:59 PM
Hmm. After reviewing the prepromo list and Tanith's stats, she's probably at least equal to her. Calill and Geoffrey would be relatively close.

I was asking which mounted units were worse than Titania in that second one. You didn't provide any. >_>

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 26 2007, 02:59 PM
You won't find many (if any) occasions where the swords' 10 hit outweight the Lances 2 might.

Considering that you can always turn to axes for even more mt., anyone who'd ever find themselves needing the hit would probably benefit more.

Serene_Dragon
Feb 26 2007, 03:05 PM
Ilyana has to catch up, and it seems to take forever to get weapon levels up in FE9.

Staves are, in my experience, the one exception.
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Pretend I put something witty here.

Mia below the little buttmunch known as Sothe?

*EVIL EYE TWITCH*

Stefan should be higher, Mia should NOT be bottom Lower Mid, Sothe shouldn't be that high- Promotion > Blossom. Volke is better than him, I agree, but Tauroneo should be higher.

And that's just a first glance.
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... uh-huh.

....Am I the only one on FEABL that thinks Mia is pretty bad and deserves that lower-mid spot? <_<
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Abyssal_Shrimp
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Serene_Dragon
Feb 26 2007, 09:24 AM
....Am I the only one on FEABL that thinks Mia is pretty bad and deserves that lower-mid spot? <_<

I'm with you on that one. >>
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Ahahahaha- *snort* -hahahaha- *snort* -heheheh

*Sees*

...Yeah. I don't agree with it at all. Even barring Jill's position. >_>
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... uh-huh.

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 26 2007, 02:25 PM
Serene_Dragon
Feb 26 2007, 09:24 AM
....Am I the only one on FEABL that thinks Mia is pretty bad and deserves that lower-mid spot? <_<

I'm with you on that one. >>

We seem to agree on a lot of things.

*high-fives*
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Pretend I put something witty here.

I'm not saying she's uber, or even high, but I think she deserves better than bottom mid. She does what Swordmasters are supposed to do - dodge and deal some damage in the process. She has most of the game- although her starting stats aren't the best in the world, but like I said, what Swordmasters are meant to do, she does well.



*Looks again*

GATRIE in LOWER MID?

ARE THESE PEOPLE ON CRACK?
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... uh-huh.

...Mia dies against axe users with me. And I don't mean good axe users, I mean the middling ones that hang around.

She can't even beat the enemies she has an advantage over.

Yeah, I know, personal experience, blah. But there are much better swordmasters in the game such as Zihark and Stefan. If all she does decently is being a swordsmaster, she doesn't really have much use when you have other ones to choose from. Because, let's face it, swordmasters are a pretty bad class really.
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Quote:
 
Illers' healing takes less effort to get than Mist's offense, IMO, and will at any rate be around for considerably longer.


No it won't. Ilyana's promoting as about the same time than Mist, and mist has barely 20 rounds to go to use that Sonic Sword. But their main job is healing anyway, so it matters more.

Quote:
 
I'd still say Shade beats his avoid, and he has better magic and a higher level against Mist, too. Not to mention that he has a considerable offense he'd be neglecting to work on using staves.


Huh. Now Soren having better offense is a point against him against Ilyana as a healer, but Ilyana having better offense is a point FOR her against Mist as a healer? Nice flawed logic you've got there.

Quote:
 
I was asking which mounted units were worse than Titania in that second one. You didn't provide any. >_>


Elincia, Haar, Geoffrey, possibly Tanith and Mist. And according to several people who debated that tier list, she's also better than Marcia, Astrid and Makalov, but I don't know the details of that argument and don't feel like delving into it right now. And regardless of that, she also kicks the ass of the largest portion of non-mounted units in the game, too. Mounted units are increadibly good in FE9, I don't see why you should pass one up just because some other are better if she's still over the average in the end.

Quote:
 
Considering that you can always turn to axes for even more mt., anyone who'd ever find themselves needing the hit would probably benefit more


I can't think of one unit that would fit this situation.
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Abyssal_Shrimp
I broke my shades!

*revives kitty*

To add to what Serene said, enemies actually have better Def in FE9, and poor Mia with low Str and swords usually doesn't cut it against them. Plus, only one weapon means limited dodging ability ; and her unexistant defenses means she has no backup if that fails.

Summary ; low offense, low defense, no utility value, bad supports. Bad unit.
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Pretend I put something witty here.

And what of Sothe, the promotionless little buttmunch kid?
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Abyssal_Shrimp
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SM 2K
Feb 26 2007, 09:43 AM
And what of Sothe, the promotionless little buttmunch kid?

Too high, IMO.

Heck, Volke's kinda high.
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KJ456
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Ahahahaha- *snort* -hahahaha- *snort* -heheheh

Hmmmm... How did Lethe end up so low? Last I paid attention to the board, she was considered the best of the combat laguz, or second to Ranulf, depending on how much importance people'd attribute to joining time.

EDIT: IIRC, tiers value the utility thieves add a lot. And Reikken especially, I believe.
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Pretend I put something witty here.

Exactly. Say what you will about SMs, I can hardly see Sothe beating Mia.

Maybe in GoD, but not in PoR.
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Abyssal_Shrimp
I broke my shades!

I'm not an expert with laguz. I don't use them. >>
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SM 2K
Feb 26 2007, 09:47 AM
Exactly. Say what you will about SMs, I can hardly see Sothe beating Mia.

Maybe in GoD, but not in PoR.

I guess it has to do with how much you value thieving skills.
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Pretend I put something witty here.

I dont. If I want a Thief, I'll use Volke. He might cost me a bit of money, but it's easy to come by. That and he can actually promote.
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Ahahahaha- *snort* -hahahaha- *snort* -heheheh

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 26 2007, 03:34 PM
No it won't. Ilyana's promoting as about the same time than Mist, and mist has barely 20 rounds to go to use that Sonic Sword. But their main job is healing anyway, so it matters more.

Eh, if given the same attention Illers should have a chapter or two on her. And it's not like Mist'll have something to attack every round, nor would she probably do very well against anything but axe users, given her lacking skill and physical defense.

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 26 2007, 03:34 PM
Huh. Now Soren having better offense is a point against him against Ilyana as a healer, but Ilyana having better offense is a point FOR her against Mist as a healer? Nice flawed logic you've got there.

It's not so much Ilyana having a better offense than Mist as it is her actually having one that doesn't require special attention.

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 26 2007, 03:34 PM
Elincia, Haar, Geoffrey, possibly Tanith and Mist. And according to several people who debated that tier list, she's also better than Marcia, Astrid and Makalov, but I don't know the details of that argument and don't feel like delving into it right now. And regardless of that, she also kicks the ass of the largest portion of non-mounted units in the game, too. Mounted units are increadibly good in FE9, I don't see why you should pass one up just because some other are better if she's still over the average in the end.

With the possible exception of Haar and the healers, all she has over any of those is her earlygame usefulness. That still doesn't amount to much in the lategame.
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Quote:
 
Eh, if given the same attention Illers should have a chapter or two on her. And it's not like Mist'll have something to attack every round, nor would she probably do very well against anything but axe users, given her lacking skill and physical defense.


I see them both promoting at chapter 17. And Mist having her B in swords by chaopter 19-20 at most.

Quote:
 
It's not so much Ilyana having a better offense than Mist as it is her actually having one that doesn't require special attention.


Okay. Mist at 20/1 with a Steel Sword has 19-22 Atk depending on supports and will double. On an enemy with 10 Def, she gets in 18-24 dmg.

Ilyana at 20/1 with Elthunder has 23 Atk. On an enemy with about what, 3 Res, she'll get in 20 damage. 40 if she doubles, but that's not anything guaranteed.

Ilyana's offense advantage relies solely on doubling. Which she isn't that awesome at.

Quote:
 
With the possible exception of Haar and the healers, all she has over any of those is her earlygame usefulness. That still doesn't amount to much in the lategame.


No, she'll still compete with a good amount of them lategame-wise. And still has her early game usefulness, and earlygame is probably more annoying than lategame, save a few exceptions.
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What are those items that raise weapon skill? Arms Scrolls? Mist sucks without them. And you need magic swords for her to do serious damage, and those arne't very common.
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Abyssal_Shrimp
I broke my shades!

iammax
Feb 26 2007, 10:40 AM
What are those items that raise weapon skill? Arms Scrolls? Mist sucks without them. And you need magic swords for her to do serious damage, and those arne't very common.

Those issues have already been adressed by me somewhere. At least read what has been said, or refrain to being back old points.
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Ahahahaha- *snort* -hahahaha- *snort* -heheheh

Shrimp, this is Max. He never pays attention to anyone's points. >_>

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 26 2007, 04:22 PM
I see them both promoting at chapter 17. And Mist having her B in swords by chaopter 19-20 at most.

If Ilyana was given the bonus exp Mist'd need to promote by then, she'd probably have a few chapters on her.

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 26 2007, 04:22 PM
Okay. Mist at 20/1 with a Steel Sword has 19-22 Atk depending on supports and will double. On an enemy with 10 Def, she gets in 18-24 dmg.

Ilyana at 20/1 with Elthunder has 23 Atk. On an enemy with about what, 3 Res, she'll get in 20 damage. 40 if she doubles, but that's not anything guaranteed.

Ilyana's offense advantage relies solely on doubling. Which she isn't that awesome at.

10, however, is in the lower end of the spectrum of FE9 enemies at that point, IIRC. And while there's res-tanky enemies, too, those are considerably fewer in number.

There's also not that much of a difference between Illers' and Mist's AS, really. Post-promotion, Mist's advantage ranges from 2.4-3.6 points. And that's ignoring AS loss; promoted Illers has the strength to lift Elthunder without it on average, while average Mist with a steel sword will be losing two points from level 20/1-20/3 and one from level 20/4-20/6. While it'll certainly net her some more DAs, I'd still say that Illers has a definite offensive advantage, given that Mist only comes close against enemies with medium-low defense and medium speed.

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 26 2007, 04:22 PM
No, she'll still compete with a good amount of them lategame-wise. And still has her early game usefulness, and earlygame is probably more annoying than lategame, save a few exceptions.

Once again, which? And I'm aware of her earlygame usefulness, no need to discuss that at all. >_>
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I broke my shades!

Quote:
 
If Ilyana was given the bonus exp Mist'd need to promote by then, she'd probably have a few chapters on her.


This is going in circles. I already pointed out that Mist didn't really need all that BEXP if you had her heal frequently and use the other staves and that she doesn't face lower EXP gains as she gains levels. I'd give Ilyana chapter 16 at most without giving her too much attention.

Quote:
 
10, however, is in the lower end of the spectrum of FE9 enemies at that point, IIRC.


Not so sure about that. Needs confirmation.

Quote:
 
There's also not that much of a difference between Illers' and Mist's AS, really. Post-promotion, Mist's advantage ranges from 2.4-3.6 points. And that's ignoring AS loss; promoted Illers has the strength to lift Elthunder without it on average, while average Mist with a steel sword will be losing two points from level 20/1-20/3 and one from level 20/4-20/6. While it'll certainly net her some more DAs, I'd still say that Illers has a definite offensive advantage, given that Mist only comes close against enemies with medium-low defense and medium speed.


Uh, the point wasn't to say Mist had comparable offense, it was to say that she did actually have some offense, as opposed to your claim. And again, since we're discussing the healer role, offense has much less impact than the rest.

Quote:
 
Once again, which? And I'm aware of her earlygame usefulness, no need to discuss that at all. >_>


She'll compete with Tanith, Marcia and Geoffrey. And yet again, you're ignoring the fact that she beats pretty much all the foot units save for a few.

And overall, you'll get more mileage out if Titania than out of the lategame prepromoes.
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Ahahahaha- *snort* -hahahaha- *snort* -heheheh

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 26 2007, 05:37 PM
This is going in circles. I already pointed out that Mist didn't really need all that BEXP if you had her heal frequently and use the other staves and that she doesn't face lower EXP gains as she gains levels. I'd give Ilyana chapter 16 at most without giving her too much attention.

Well, it's just my experience that any fighting unit who requires less effort to raise than, say, Makalov or Rolf will promote around level 17 with no bexp. All I'm saying is that assuming Ilyana is given the bexp Mist'd take to promote around then, she'd have a chapter or two on her.

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 26 2007, 05:37 PM
Uh, the point wasn't to say Mist had comparable offense, it was to say that she did actually have some offense, as opposed to your claim. And again, since we're discussing the healer role, offense has much less impact than the rest.

Eh, still not enough for me, whereas Illers' healing is. Matter of preference?

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 26 2007, 05:37 PM
She'll compete with Tanith, Marcia and Geoffrey.

I suppose a case could be made against Marcia, but if you're intending to use her at all, she should have caught up by then. And I still don't see what she has over Tanith and Geoffrey, once you have them. Both have better skills and stats, and you can't really pin anything on their joining levels.

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 26 2007, 05:37 PM
And yet again, you're ignoring the fact that she beats pretty much all the foot units save for a few.

Once again, which? I can see a case being made against most non-mounted, characters joining after Tormod, but... tanks? Magical attackers? Both fill largely different roles, and face considerably less competition. Laguz? They may not generally be that great, but they do have their bright points, like Ranulf.

Abyssal_Shrimp
Feb 26 2007, 05:37 PM
And overall, you'll get more mileage out if Titania than out of the lategame prepromoes.

Overall, yes. Still doesn't mean you should use her over them once they're there.
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