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I DID IT~; *Cue FF music*
Topic Started: Feb 24 2007, 06:25 PM (680 Views)
Koracross
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OK, So I informed you all that I got FE9, remember? Well, i finally beat it. Yaaaay~

Now I don't have to live in shame cause I'd only gotten to the last chapter. Anyway...I didn't really DO all too well...I let 5 people die( I will not disclose their names because you all would kill me if you knew >.>;)

But...I beat in 30 Hours, almost exactly, and my top 5 were:

5)Oscar-64 wins
4)Zihark-70 something wins
3)Astrid-84 Wins
2)Ike-91 Wins
1)Boyd-120 wins

Yaaaay, Boyd. Anyway, praise discuss my success
Korit Lvl 20/12 Swordmaster "Need....More....Speed....ugh"
Sol Lvl 20/11 Wyvern Lord "Yay, I've capped Two Stats!"
Axel Lvl 20/11 Paladin "Im the only one who's right on track speed-wise!"
Anthony Lvl 20/1 General "Yays, finally a General! ANT SMASH!"
Vic lvl 9 Mercenary. "How am i supposed to fight sober?!?"


My Addictions...
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Soul
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Ooh, my head is spinning...

I'm guessing the people that died were Reyson, Shinon, Rolf, Mist and Soren >>
My FEABL profile

Jarro; lvl. 20/13 Mage Knight, Frost; lvl. 20/18 Phalanx, Melissa lvl. 12 Archer, Rexall; level 17 Squire, Marco; level 10 Wyvern Knight
RP Only: Sarah

Retired: Krys, Lizzie, Kratos, Ruby, Amery, Fairah, Grimliss, Azrael, Hanz, Rowan

Tales of The Abyss, FEABL Style, fun stuff!

Quote:
 
Flare's clone says (5:22 PM):
You know, the first time I scrolled over your MSN icon fast, I thought it was Wodan with a top hat.

Quote:
 
[00:55] Apejack Cuba: someone sig that

Medi in diplomacy
 
And why should I trust your ability? You have very consistently been losing ground to the Germans, regardless of whether I've been on your side or not. What you're telling me is that I have a dilemma: either I can fight you and see you lose all of your SCs to Germany, or I can fight Germany and see you lose all of your SCs to Germany.
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KJ456
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Ahahahaha- *snort* -hahahaha- *snort* -heheheh

Mist and Soren don't die, unfortunately.
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Do not click. Do, however, click these at your leisure ('specially for stats): Gero, Terra, Tic, Nys'elni and Murphy.

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Banner by Shade.

Challenges open if I'm around, though you'd better be prepared to stat, 'cause I'm lazy.

My theme, according to the Mooney one.
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Koracross
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Soulavenger69
Feb 24 2007, 12:48 PM
I'm guessing the people that died were Reyson, Shinon, Rolf, Mist and Soren >>

Soren WAS one >.>

The other four...were...

lemme think....

Soren...Mia, Ilyana,Haar, Stefan

Soren died early on, Mia/Ilyana died on that one 4 part chapter, so i was too lazy to go back and save them, and Haar/Stefan died on the last chapter, cause Haar got raped by Bolting-ish magix, and Stefan REFUSED TO DODGE THOSE DAM CATS!!!
Korit Lvl 20/12 Swordmaster "Need....More....Speed....ugh"
Sol Lvl 20/11 Wyvern Lord "Yay, I've capped Two Stats!"
Axel Lvl 20/11 Paladin "Im the only one who's right on track speed-wise!"
Anthony Lvl 20/1 General "Yays, finally a General! ANT SMASH!"
Vic lvl 9 Mercenary. "How am i supposed to fight sober?!?"


My Addictions...
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SabreCut
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Don't worry guys, I got a good price for selling you out

That's a suspiciously low amount of kills. My Ike usually ends up with around 200.
My theme, picked by Bugmeat
Stuff about me? Well, if you really want to know...

Unpromoted Characters
Posted ImageKillian, level 8 Cavalier
Posted ImageEvander, level 7 Pegasus Knight Posted ImageMors, level 8 Brigand

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Posted ImageAodh, level 20/6 Nomad Trooper Posted ImageGunnar, level 20*/10 Warrior

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Koracross
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SabreCut
Feb 24 2007, 12:53 PM
That's a suspiciously low amount of kills. My Ike usually ends up with around 200.

...HOW?

Oh yeah..MY Ike had Spd/Skl maxed(not at lvl 20 ranger >.>;...just clarifying), but at a lvl 20 Ranger, he had like, 11 Str.

Then, He picked it up as a Lord, with 25 at lvl 20 Lord.
Korit Lvl 20/12 Swordmaster "Need....More....Speed....ugh"
Sol Lvl 20/11 Wyvern Lord "Yay, I've capped Two Stats!"
Axel Lvl 20/11 Paladin "Im the only one who's right on track speed-wise!"
Anthony Lvl 20/1 General "Yays, finally a General! ANT SMASH!"
Vic lvl 9 Mercenary. "How am i supposed to fight sober?!?"


My Addictions...
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KJ456
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Ahahahaha- *snort* -hahahaha- *snort* -heheheh

Korit
Feb 24 2007, 09:53 PM
Mia, Ilyana,Haar, Stefan

*Harsh glare*
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Do not click. Do, however, click these at your leisure ('specially for stats): Gero, Terra, Tic, Nys'elni and Murphy.

Posted Image
Banner by Shade.

Challenges open if I'm around, though you'd better be prepared to stat, 'cause I'm lazy.

My theme, according to the Mooney one.
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Koracross
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KJ456
Feb 24 2007, 12:57 PM
Korit
Feb 24 2007, 09:53 PM
Mia, Ilyana,Haar, Stefan

*Harsh glare*

Look....Haar got raped in one...wait, it was the Place BEFORE the last chapter...you know, with the thousands of mages, with Blizzard...Bolting...Meteor..etc. Haar died right before I claimed the level T_T

AND I KNO!!! HOW DID STEFAN DAI?!?! HE REFUSED TO DODGE THE CATS!!!!!(last lvl)
Korit Lvl 20/12 Swordmaster "Need....More....Speed....ugh"
Sol Lvl 20/11 Wyvern Lord "Yay, I've capped Two Stats!"
Axel Lvl 20/11 Paladin "Im the only one who's right on track speed-wise!"
Anthony Lvl 20/1 General "Yays, finally a General! ANT SMASH!"
Vic lvl 9 Mercenary. "How am i supposed to fight sober?!?"


My Addictions...
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Naglfar
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YOU'VE BEEN HIT BY

Leveling Ike for the BK gets you that much, I think.
1478: George Plantagenet, Duke of Clarence, was executed by drowning in a barrel of Malmsey wine at his own request.

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Lay out the traffic cones and punch through the concrete with your pneumatic drill as your new roadway starts to take shape. All of the tools of the trade are at your disposal including an asphalt planer, steamroller, marking machine and the whole gamut of machinery required to transform a building site into a super smooth motorway. As your skills grow you will be able to embark on a range of diverse missions. Country roads, pothole repairs, lane widening and motorway construction are all in a day's work for the hard hat highway heroes!

Dig for pay dirt and form your own civil engineering company. You will be starting modestly with small wheel loaders but success is in the soil! As your skills and reputation increase grow your business with the purchase of a huge selection of equipment including the heavy road roller!

Get swept up into fighting the flotsam and jetsam of city life with Street Cleaning Simulator! In Street Cleaning Simulator you are the proud owner/operator of a small firm specialising in keeping the town's roads free from all the leaves and dirt that accumulate over time. Visit your office to learn what work the Mayor's office has for you.

Your vehicle is a highly sophisticated street cleaning machine. It's equipped with three highly powered and independently operated brushes. Whose work can be supported by highly powered water jets - which are needed to remove that stubborn street dirt.

You'll be operating on busy streets so you'll have to use your driving skills to avoid pedestrians and other road users. Remember to use your wing mirrors to help prevent crashing your vehicle.
Don't forget to fill up with fuel...and water......and empty out the muck from time to time.

Street Cleaning Simulator features highly detailed vehicles and a wonderfully crafted town for you to explore - and keep clean!

No more waiting on the hard shoulder in Europe to be rescued! Tow Truck Simulator places you in the role of the driver and operator of a rescue truck as you become the hero of the hour and rescue broken down vehicles and attend accidents. Or perhaps you will prefer to take the role of the driver of a dreaded towing truck and tow away illegally parked cars.

There are four models of tow trucks for you to choose from each with a crane and winch to remove every kind of vehicle. You will learn how to handle different cars to get them loaded as quickly as possible!

The large detailed 3D environment allows you to freely explore the roads around you whilst searching for drivers in distress.
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Koracross
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Naglfar
Feb 24 2007, 12:59 PM
Leveling Ike for the BK gets you that much, I think.

Ike was lvl 19 for me when I fought the BK, and I still had under 100 Kills, let alone 200!

Also-I forgot Mist came in to help you, and i dont use Mist(Rhys is Schmexier), so she didnt have astaff, so she was useless, and Ike didnt kill the BK

T_T
Korit Lvl 20/12 Swordmaster "Need....More....Speed....ugh"
Sol Lvl 20/11 Wyvern Lord "Yay, I've capped Two Stats!"
Axel Lvl 20/11 Paladin "Im the only one who's right on track speed-wise!"
Anthony Lvl 20/1 General "Yays, finally a General! ANT SMASH!"
Vic lvl 9 Mercenary. "How am i supposed to fight sober?!?"


My Addictions...
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KJ456
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Ahahahaha- *snort* -hahahaha- *snort* -heheheh

Haar was the least of the reasons. Hell, I've only recruited him once. Silly messed up recruitment conditions.

But... Mia and Illers! You're heartless!

EDIT: Pft, Ike can take the BK with an unused Mist and a bit of luck. >_>
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Do not click. Do, however, click these at your leisure ('specially for stats): Gero, Terra, Tic, Nys'elni and Murphy.

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Banner by Shade.

Challenges open if I'm around, though you'd better be prepared to stat, 'cause I'm lazy.

My theme, according to the Mooney one.
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Koracross
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KJ456
Feb 24 2007, 01:02 PM
Haar was the least of the reasons. Hell, I've only recruited him once. Silly messed up recruitment conditions.

But... Mia and Illers! You're heartless!

EDIT: Pft, Ike can take the BK with an unused Mist and a bit of luck. >_>

ORLY?

Yea...I was sad...but it was like, 2 in the AM and I didnt care after 2 hours of one chapter....

Also- My Ike did 7 Dmg to the BK, while he did...like...23 or something.

He 2HKO me(would've)

Also, like 73 CoH
Korit Lvl 20/12 Swordmaster "Need....More....Speed....ugh"
Sol Lvl 20/11 Wyvern Lord "Yay, I've capped Two Stats!"
Axel Lvl 20/11 Paladin "Im the only one who's right on track speed-wise!"
Anthony Lvl 20/1 General "Yays, finally a General! ANT SMASH!"
Vic lvl 9 Mercenary. "How am i supposed to fight sober?!?"


My Addictions...
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Soul
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Ooh, my head is spinning...

He had less than 46 Hp? My Ike usually get well above 50 if not cap it >_>

Also, you're supposed to use one of the 4 Occult Scrolls on him <_<
My FEABL profile

Jarro; lvl. 20/13 Mage Knight, Frost; lvl. 20/18 Phalanx, Melissa lvl. 12 Archer, Rexall; level 17 Squire, Marco; level 10 Wyvern Knight
RP Only: Sarah

Retired: Krys, Lizzie, Kratos, Ruby, Amery, Fairah, Grimliss, Azrael, Hanz, Rowan

Tales of The Abyss, FEABL Style, fun stuff!

Quote:
 
Flare's clone says (5:22 PM):
You know, the first time I scrolled over your MSN icon fast, I thought it was Wodan with a top hat.

Quote:
 
[00:55] Apejack Cuba: someone sig that

Medi in diplomacy
 
And why should I trust your ability? You have very consistently been losing ground to the Germans, regardless of whether I've been on your side or not. What you're telling me is that I have a dilemma: either I can fight you and see you lose all of your SCs to Germany, or I can fight Germany and see you lose all of your SCs to Germany.
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Koracross
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Soulavenger69
Feb 24 2007, 01:08 PM
He had less than 46 Hp? My Ike usually get well above 50 if not cap it >_>

Also, you're supposed to use one of the 4 Occult Scrolls on him <_<

I Did.

Ike...Oh wait, he had 54 HP...So...I guess it WASNT 2HKO...but stilll....7 dmg to 23? With no healing? I think not.
Korit Lvl 20/12 Swordmaster "Need....More....Speed....ugh"
Sol Lvl 20/11 Wyvern Lord "Yay, I've capped Two Stats!"
Axel Lvl 20/11 Paladin "Im the only one who's right on track speed-wise!"
Anthony Lvl 20/1 General "Yays, finally a General! ANT SMASH!"
Vic lvl 9 Mercenary. "How am i supposed to fight sober?!?"


My Addictions...
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KJ456
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Ahahahaha- *snort* -hahahaha- *snort* -heheheh

Hey, you might have landed an Aether or something. >_>
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Do not click. Do, however, click these at your leisure ('specially for stats): Gero, Terra, Tic, Nys'elni and Murphy.

Posted Image
Banner by Shade.

Challenges open if I'm around, though you'd better be prepared to stat, 'cause I'm lazy.

My theme, according to the Mooney one.
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Soul
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Ooh, my head is spinning...

That's why you hope that activates. Also you need to keep Ike with Elixers >_>
My FEABL profile

Jarro; lvl. 20/13 Mage Knight, Frost; lvl. 20/18 Phalanx, Melissa lvl. 12 Archer, Rexall; level 17 Squire, Marco; level 10 Wyvern Knight
RP Only: Sarah

Retired: Krys, Lizzie, Kratos, Ruby, Amery, Fairah, Grimliss, Azrael, Hanz, Rowan

Tales of The Abyss, FEABL Style, fun stuff!

Quote:
 
Flare's clone says (5:22 PM):
You know, the first time I scrolled over your MSN icon fast, I thought it was Wodan with a top hat.

Quote:
 
[00:55] Apejack Cuba: someone sig that

Medi in diplomacy
 
And why should I trust your ability? You have very consistently been losing ground to the Germans, regardless of whether I've been on your side or not. What you're telling me is that I have a dilemma: either I can fight you and see you lose all of your SCs to Germany, or I can fight Germany and see you lose all of your SCs to Germany.
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Koracross
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KJ456
Feb 24 2007, 01:13 PM
Hey, you might have landed an Aether or something. >_>

MIGHT being the keyword. Im very...cautious, when if Ike dies, I have to restart an hour long mission.

Also, the BK gets reinforcements, a soldier and two bishops, remember?
Korit Lvl 20/12 Swordmaster "Need....More....Speed....ugh"
Sol Lvl 20/11 Wyvern Lord "Yay, I've capped Two Stats!"
Axel Lvl 20/11 Paladin "Im the only one who's right on track speed-wise!"
Anthony Lvl 20/1 General "Yays, finally a General! ANT SMASH!"
Vic lvl 9 Mercenary. "How am i supposed to fight sober?!?"


My Addictions...
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Heroman
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be wary of amazing chest

KJ456
Feb 24 2007, 12:57 PM
Korit
Feb 24 2007, 09:53 PM
Mia, Ilyana,Haar, Stefan

*Harsh glare*

Me: qft
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SabreCut
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Don't worry guys, I got a good price for selling you out

Naglfar
Feb 24 2007, 08:59 PM
Leveling Ike for the BK gets you that much, I think.

More like Ike soloing the last half of the game gets you that, as well as pwning everyone in the last chapter without being scratched.
My theme, picked by Bugmeat
Stuff about me? Well, if you really want to know...

Unpromoted Characters
Posted ImageKillian, level 8 Cavalier
Posted ImageEvander, level 7 Pegasus Knight Posted ImageMors, level 8 Brigand

Promoted Characters
Posted ImageAodh, level 20/6 Nomad Trooper Posted ImageGunnar, level 20*/10 Warrior

Retired Characters
Posted ImagePosted Image
Posted Image

(Avatar picture was not drawn by me. obviously)
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Koracross
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SabreCut
Feb 24 2007, 01:20 PM
Naglfar
Feb 24 2007, 08:59 PM
Leveling Ike for the BK gets you that much, I think.

More like Ike soloing the last half of the game gets you that, as well as pwning everyone in the last chapter without being scratched.

That's what I did...except for the Dragons...thos things scared me...

Also-

ASTRID, FTW

My Astrid had capped Str, Spd, and Skl, and over 20 Def&Res.

She OWN3D
Korit Lvl 20/12 Swordmaster "Need....More....Speed....ugh"
Sol Lvl 20/11 Wyvern Lord "Yay, I've capped Two Stats!"
Axel Lvl 20/11 Paladin "Im the only one who's right on track speed-wise!"
Anthony Lvl 20/1 General "Yays, finally a General! ANT SMASH!"
Vic lvl 9 Mercenary. "How am i supposed to fight sober?!?"


My Addictions...
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Tookie
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Pretend I put something witty here.

CO Adder
Feb 24 2007, 09:17 PM
KJ456
Feb 24 2007, 12:57 PM
Korit
Feb 24 2007, 09:53 PM
Mia, Ilyana,Haar, Stefan

*Harsh glare*

Me: qft

*Sees Mia and Ilyana*

You sick *omitted*...
Flare
 
Okay.

You have been dressed down by Tookie for trolling.

This topic is now over. It can be mathematically proved that there is no adequate comeback to that simple fact.


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Vicas
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Ok, hop aboard then. Adventure awaits.

ASTRID! Yeah, she's awesome. She falls under the Nino category, but has a skill that makes up for it, which is why I use her. Well, that and I really don't like the other cavaliers.

Anyway, the Ike vs BK fight is nearly impossible without Mist. You need Aether to activate at least twice, since you can't attack every turn. Plus, you only have about 3 attacks because when the bishops come, they heal him and there's no way to beat him from there. I can't remember the odds of everything working out in that fight, but I know someone calculated them, and it's insanely low.
Quote:
 
[00:09:11] Magus of the Purge: You and Kim's anniversary is the original Great Purge?
[00:09:15] Captain Vicas: Yep
[00:09:28] Magus of the Purge: No wonder your relationshup has lasted this long.
[00:09:32] Captain Vicas: Of course
[00:09:36] Magus of the Purge: it was blessed by Gheb himself
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KJ456
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Ahahahaha- *snort* -hahahaha- *snort* -heheheh

I beat him without Mist once. You can do it with only one Aether, but it requires a bunch of lucky dodges.
Posted Image

Do not click. Do, however, click these at your leisure ('specially for stats): Gero, Terra, Tic, Nys'elni and Murphy.

Posted Image
Banner by Shade.

Challenges open if I'm around, though you'd better be prepared to stat, 'cause I'm lazy.

My theme, according to the Mooney one.
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Eusine
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BRING ME MOAR SUICUNE~

Vicas the Merciful
Feb 26 2007, 02:31 AM
ASTRID! Yeah, she's awesome. She falls under the Nino category, but has a skill that makes up for it, which is why I use her. Well, that and I really don't like the other cavaliers.

Anyway, the Ike vs BK fight is nearly impossible without Mist. You need Aether to activate at least twice, since you can't attack every turn. Plus, you only have about 3 attacks because when the bishops come, they heal him and there's no way to beat him from there. I can't remember the odds of everything working out in that fight, but I know someone calculated them, and it's insanely low.

The Bishops heal the BK? They didn't try when I killed him. But then, I killed him in 4 or 5 trns I think. I had a promoted Mist who kept Ike healed and getting off 4 Aethers helped somewhat.


Though he did come really close to killing me at one point when I forgot that Alondite has a 1-2 range and I moved to range 2 because I had lkow hp left left. That was a very lucky dodge.



And pffh, Dragon Laguz. My Ike with Ragnell can take one out in 3 hits.
Xavier Lv 30 Kensai
Ignia Lv 32 Nomad Trooper
Saito Lv 1 Mega Man
Nae Lv 1 Mystic
Xie Lv 1 Bishie

RP Only
-----------
Neri - Wizardess
Christopher - Strategist
Cyrus - Lightblade

FE 9 Accomplishments
-------------------------
Beating Ch 15 without killing anyone, losing any characters and recruiting Stefan :fwee:
Capping 6 stats with Ike.
Capping 5 stats (inc. STR) with Soren

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Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
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Caney
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CAST IN THE NAME OF GOD YE GUILTY

KJ456
Feb 24 2007, 03:57 PM
Korit
Feb 24 2007, 09:53 PM
Mia, Ilyana,Haar, Stefan

*Harsh glare*

Stefan?

*Oblivionates*

EDIT: AND HAAR?

IDEON GUN! DESTROY!
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Seth
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I'm...HUNGRY!

KJ456
Feb 25 2007, 12:46 PM
I beat him without Mist once. You can do it with only one Aether, but it requires a bunch of lucky dodges.

Second'd. Gogo dodging three attacks in a row and getting an Aether proc when he finally hit me! ^.^
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Alastair


Korit
Feb 24 2007, 02:53 PM
Soren...Mia, Ilyana,Haar, Stefan

Ok, while I hate you for them, the first four I can see happening, but...

STEFAN? That's not even possible. Your disc is broken. Buy a new one.



Seriously, what'd you do, just throw him at every enemy on the map, without bothering to heal, with a slim sword?

Christ, I've done that before, and he still survived. With flying colours I might add. I remember playing through the last several levels with pretty well Stefan only once(loaded from a save), and of course Tibarn to beat the crap out of Ashnard.

1ST PLACE: Stefan! 350 kills!

Or something to that effect. I've done that with several characters...

...

I've gotten sidetracked.

Korit, as punishment for allowing both worthy swordmasters(kicks sand in Zihark's eyes), as well as your best sage, you're sentenced to play through FE9 again, with a 100% survival rate. In the next three days. Go.
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Challenges are not only welcomed, but encouraged. Seriously, battles ftw.

Alastair: Lvl. 12 Nomad

Phayt: Lvl. 6 Myrmidon
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LuteFanBoyNick
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>_>

You know, I just had Mist stab the reinforcements...Not that hard.

I mean, I gave her a pink sword. They cowered, and they died. Pink is pimp. Except I wouldn't wear it. Do you wanna go to prison for pimping? That's on your permanent record. And that's bad.
:D
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Koracross
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Alastair
Mar 6 2007, 07:44 PM
Korit
Feb 24 2007, 02:53 PM
Soren...Mia, Ilyana,Haar, Stefan

Ok, while I hate you for them, the first four I can see happening, but...

STEFAN? That's not even possible. Your disc is broken. Buy a new one.



Seriously, what'd you do, just throw him at every enemy on the map, without bothering to heal, with a slim sword?

Christ, I've done that before, and he still survived. With flying colours I might add. I remember playing through the last several levels with pretty well Stefan only once(loaded from a save), and of course Tibarn to beat the crap out of Ashnard.

1ST PLACE: Stefan! 350 kills!

Or something to that effect. I've done that with several characters...

...

I've gotten sidetracked.

Korit, as punishment for allowing both worthy swordmasters(kicks sand in Zihark's eyes), as well as your best sage, you're sentenced to play through FE9 again, with a 100% survival rate. In the next three days. Go.

Who said Zihark died?

And actually, Stefan was lvl 18, max skill/spd/str(dont remember if thats all)...but for some reason...he NEVER DODGED THE LAGUZ!! I put him there BECAUSE I knew he pwned, but then he died. I wouldve restarted the chapter if it wasnt endgame. My rule is, if any chars (that I care about) die, I restart, excluding the last 2-3 chapters
Korit Lvl 20/12 Swordmaster "Need....More....Speed....ugh"
Sol Lvl 20/11 Wyvern Lord "Yay, I've capped Two Stats!"
Axel Lvl 20/11 Paladin "Im the only one who's right on track speed-wise!"
Anthony Lvl 20/1 General "Yays, finally a General! ANT SMASH!"
Vic lvl 9 Mercenary. "How am i supposed to fight sober?!?"


My Addictions...
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Alastair


I didn't say Zihark died. I said your two best Swordmasters died. I.E. Mia and Stefan. Zihark's crap. So there. And, I suppose he must have had really terrible Luck... Though, Cats are fairly accurate to begin with.
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Challenges are not only welcomed, but encouraged. Seriously, battles ftw.

Alastair: Lvl. 12 Nomad

Phayt: Lvl. 6 Myrmidon
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Abyssal_Shrimp
I broke my shades!

Alastair
Mar 7 2007, 01:57 AM
I didn't say Zihark died. I said your two best Swordmasters died. I.E. Mia and Stefan. Zihark's crap. So there. And, I suppose he must have had really terrible Luck... Though, Cats are fairly accurate to begin with.

Zihark is better than Stefan and incredibly better than Mia. >_>
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SabreCut
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The problem with Stefan is that he's a swordmaster who, despite having excellent other stats, cannot dodge to save his life. And being a swordmaster, he regularly has to and thusly usually ends up six feet under since he can't. If he had more luck, he would be a far better unit. Since he doesn't have luck, Zihark is better than him (there are other reasons, but that's the main one for me).

And the fact that you even mentioned Mia in the same post as Zihark, let alone said she was better than him, is heresy.
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Kinkajou
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You let Haar and Soren die. Heartless bastard.

But, you also let Ilyana and Mia die, and that more than makes up for it. *applauds* *killed horribly by rabid Mia and Ilyana fanboys aka KJ and Adder*
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Koracross
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XD

Umm, I DID notice Stefan had like, 6 Luk to Ziharks 17 >.>;

And I know, but Soren ALWAYS DIES FOR ME!! I DUN KNOW WHY!!!And Haar got raped by 3 boltings, and I was too tired to redo the chapter...

But I do miss Haar T_T
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Alastair


May I just say, lol. Stefan's already picking up 60 Evade(at level 20) from his speed coupled with him not being a frail pansy. Tack on 10 - 15 Luck, depending on how lucky you yourself are, and he's dodging like crazy anyways. Even enemy Swordmasters and Snipers are lucky to hit him half the time. Zihark's not gonna beat out his luck by more than 5 anyways, so it's irrelevant. You want a dodge tank? Pick Mia.

It's also worth noting that Stefan tends to have marginally better defense, and unlike Zihark he actually seems to understand the concept of resistance, which means he can take more hits to begin with, not to mention his health is usually a bit higher. He also maxes his Strength, almost guaranteed. Zihark can do it too, but it's a little iffy. I've had him hit SM 20 with around 20. Stefan has that by 10.

What else... Somewhat better magic, among the best of all melee fighters, makes him the most viable candidate for the Wind Sword, which rocks against all those damn Wyverns later on, or the Rune Sword. He's also got a nice S - Rank with his swords, when you get him. Zihark(or Mia), aren't likely to have that anywhere near the time you pick up Stefan(since they tend to be using lighter swords, which won't get them as much WEXP). I've had them not get it at all. And I'm certainly not giving the Vague Katti to Ike.

I'd also like to point out that not having to waste a Occult to give him Astra rocks. Hell, he gives you an Occult too, if I remember correctly. Overall, Stefan, while not by a ridiculous margin, is a better unit than Zihark.
_______________________________________________

Stefan: "Oops, I suppose I didn't have to critical twice. Sorry about that." *goes off to use Astra against an enemy that only has 8 HP left*

Zihark: "Eeek! Mages!" *runs away*
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Koracross
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I know, Stefan does rock, and mine had maxed SPD, and 60+ avd, so I just wonder...

WHY DIDNT HE AVOID? I LUV STEFAN!

And dont be mean to Zihark. My Zihark was pretty BA
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Alastair


*shrugs*

I'm a little hard on him. He's still a solid unit in all respects. I just can't justify using 3 Swordmasters, and Stefan's somewhat better. And, no way in hell am I dropping Mia.

As for Soren, he likely died as a result of his atrocious defense. On the plus side, enemy mages can't touch him. He also has horrid Str, which lowers his AS, and thus his dodge. That's the one area where Ilyana and others really kick sand in his eyes.

Also, a side note on the topic of magic users and strength. My level 6 Mist now has 6 Str and 5 Mag. Yeah. She's hit Str every freakin' time, and Mag only once. What the hell?
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Koracross
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XDD

Thats like my Oscars 10 mag to 13 str, lol
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Alastair
Mar 7 2007, 11:22 PM
May I just say, lol. Stefan's already picking up 60 Evade(at level 20) from his speed coupled with him not being a frail pansy. Tack on 10 - 15 Luck, depending on how lucky you yourself are, and he's dodging like crazy anyways. Even enemy Swordmasters and Snipers are lucky to hit him half the time. Zihark's not gonna beat out his luck by more than 5 anyways, so it's irrelevant. You want a dodge tank? Pick Mia.

The highest luck Stefan can possibly get at 20/20 is 17, and on a 25% growth he'll be lucky to end up with 8. Zihark gets that 17 ON AVERAGE, plus he maxes speed faster than Stefan does. The only advantage Stefan has over Zihark defence/dodge wise is his res advantage.


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It's also worth noting that Stefan tends to have marginally better defense,


Wrong, Zihark has more defence than him at 20/20 and at Stefan's starting level.

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unlike Zihark he actually seems to understand the concept of resistance


His Res advantage, whilst its 5 more than Zihark, doesn't exactly make Stefan a magic tank. It may help but Zihark's extra dodge will help an SM far more.

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, which means he can take more hits to begin with, not to mention his health is usually a bit higher.


Two points is quite a bit higher? That's news to me.

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He also maxes his Strength, almost guaranteed. Zihark can do it too, but it's a little iffy. I've had him hit SM 20 with around 20. Stefan has that by 10.


Both are almost certain to cap it by 20/20. And personal experience means nothing.

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What else... Somewhat better magic, among the best of all melee fighters, makes him the most viable candidate for the Wind Sword, which rocks against all those damn Wyverns later on, or the Rune Sword.


Magic swords are useless for any character other than Mist. C'mon, why on earth would you want to attack with 10 magic rather than 20 something strength? Besides, a 3 point magic advantage over Zihark is hardly the greatest thing in the world.

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He's also got a nice S - Rank with his swords, when you get him. Zihark(or Mia), aren't likely to have that anywhere near the time you pick up Stefan(since they tend to be using lighter swords, which won't get them as much WEXP). I've had them not get it at all. And I'm certainly not giving the Vague Katti to Ike.


Mia, yes; but you have to be joking if you think Zihark is restricted to light weapons. By the time he promotes (not even reaching Stefan's level), he'll have enough strength to wield pretty much any weapon without AS loss and by Stefan's level he almost certainly will. He'll have no problem getting an S rank in swords, mayube not be the time you get Stefan, but he'll get it. And thw Vague Katti ain't that great a weapon, especially when you can forge weapons.

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I'd also like to point out that not having to waste a Occult to give him Astra rocks. Hell, he gives you an Occult too, if I remember correctly.


Are you playing the same FE9 as me? Astra is a stupidly nerfed skill with a low activation rate. Adept is better, Vantage is better, a whole load of skills are far better than that horrible version of one of FE4's greatest skills.

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Overall, Stefan, while not by a ridiculous margin, is a better unit than Zihark.


No, he isn't. Stefan has his uses, but Zihark is easily the better character. And do I even have to

Someone can probably argue this better than me (I don't hang around the FE9 boards too often and I don't have a good knowledge of how the supports work. I do know that Zihark's are considered better than Stefan's though).
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Alastair


... lol.

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The highest luck Stefan can possibly get at 20/20 is 17, and on a 25% growth he'll be lucky to end up with 8. Zihark gets that 17 ON AVERAGE, plus he maxes speed faster than Stefan does. The only advantage Stefan has over Zihark defence/dodge wise is his res advantage.


While I do often give him an Ashera Icon, Stefan usually ends up with at least 12 for me. Have fun with your statistics though. I still consist that among the two, the extra luck isn't gonna matter very much. Zihark has 8 more evade? Good for him. Stefan still ain't gettin' hit, so I'm not too worried about it. It's relative.

As for defence... I'm not even gonna get into that. Stefan routinely beats Zihark by 3 or more points for me.

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His Res advantage, whilst its 5 more than Zihark, doesn't exactly make Stefan a magic tank. It may help but Zihark's extra dodge will help an SM far more.


It does, however, make him capable of taking a hit from a mage without having to retreat. And again with your assumption that because Zihark has better Evade, Stefan must be taking hits left and right.

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Two points is quite a bit higher? That's news to me.


... Did you give him the Seraph thing? 'Cause I'm lookin' at 5-10...

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Both are almost certain to cap it by 20/20. And personal experience means nothing.


1. Zihark is far from certain. I believe on average he should just hit it. Granted, he'll usually be within a couple if he doesn't, but Stefan's more reliable in this respect. Oh, and, 2. Personal experience means nothing? That's debatable, considering it's the basis of all opinion. And seeing as I've no intention to go off and read some average stats, it's all I've got to go on. After a good 10 playthroughs(albeit most a while ago) though, I think I've gotten the gist of things.

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Magic swords are useless for any character other than Mist. C'mon, why on earth would you want to attack with 10 magic rather than 20 something strength? Besides, a 3 point magic advantage over Zihark is hardly the greatest thing in the world.


Must I really explain to you the advantages of a magic sword? For one, there's the added effect. As stated, the wind sword, being wind based, tears up flying units. The runesword restores HP, which is handy if you don't have a healer nearby, and don't want to waste a turn on/use of an Elixer. For what it's worth, they also attack resistance, making them useful against some high defense enemies, such as generals. Finally, there's the 1-2 range. There aren't any throwable swords, so magic is the only way you're gonna get a distance attack. Sure, magic swords aren't the most impressive things in the game, but they're far from useless.

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Mia, yes; but you have to be joking if you think Zihark is restricted to light weapons. By the time he promotes (not even reaching Stefan's level), he'll have enough strength to wield pretty much any weapon without AS loss and by Stefan's level he almost certainly will. He'll have no problem getting an S rank in swords, mayube not be the time you get Stefan, but he'll get it. And thw Vague Katti ain't that great a weapon, especially when you can forge weapons.


I admit, Zihark usually will have an S Rank by the time he's 20/20, but Stefan has it from the time you recruit him on Chapter 15. Granted, you'll need to bench him for a couple chapters anyways, but regardless. If 8 extra luck is impressive, so is that. As for the Vague Katti not being great, I suppose that's a matter of opinion, but I hope you get mauled by jackals for saying that all the same. Yeah, that's right. Jackals. Freakin' Jackals.

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Are you playing the same FE9 as me? Astra is a stupidly nerfed skill with a low activation rate. Adept is better, Vantage is better, a whole load of skills are far better than that horrible version of one of FE4's greatest skills.


Clearly not. Mine must be broken if Zihark's apparently supposed to be so good. Moving on, it was nerfed because it was ridiculous to begin with.

Adept: Attack twice? I don't see how this is better. Sure, it's a good skill, but better? I'll give you equal.
Vantage: Attack first? It's moderately useful, sure, but often completely unnecessary.
Astra: Attack * 2.5? That's still pretty decent. Sure, a Crit is better anyways, but a Crit's also better than a second attack(though it's true that you could concievably crit twice with adept). Plus, for whatever it's worth, it's super cool.

I won't get too far into supports, as I don't know much about them either, but it strikes me that Zihark supports with Ilyana, Brom and Muarim, a bunch of people I rarely use. On the other hand, Stefan has Soren, who I always use, and Mordecai, who I use... well, more than Muarim. Tigers piss me off in general. Get some speed, jerks.


Finally, I'm not sure where you're getting this "easily better" stuff. If anything, I'd be willing to give you "mostly equal" just to let the argument die. However, one must admit the fact that Stefan is more reliable in terms of stats. Personally, I count on Zihark gettin' screwed over in something or other every time I use him.

There's also one undeniable truth that you've clearly neglected. Stefan is super cool. And he has green hair. Not to mention he wears purple. Really. He's cool-city.
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Caney
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Alastair...

I'm a Stefan fanboy as well, but I have to be blunt.

You're basing your arguments around personal experience, which unless used in RTS or TBS strategy games, is worth Jack ****.
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Alastair


Actually, in all fairness, I decide to look up their average stats after posting that.

Zihark has better speed, luck, and defense(0_o... alright).

Stefan has better health, strength, magic, skill, and resistance.

Now, let's assume we're measuring from 20/20. Str, Spd, and Skl are all irrelevant, as both max all three on average. It's worth noting that Stefan farther exceeds both Str and Skl caps, while Zihark beats him out in Spd.

We're left with 9 points of Luck and 1 of Defense higher for Zihark, 2 HP(?), less than 1 Mag(another oddity), and 5 resistance. Now, I still contest that Luck won't matter much, and Sabre seems to think Res isn't too important either. The 1 and 2 in Def and HP aren't a big difference, so I'll cast 'em aside.

In terms of stats, I think even going by the average they're pretty evenly matched, ignoring instances where they exceeded caps.

Bonus points:

Zihark: ... I got nothin'. Lower weight, I suppose.

Stefan: Auto S Rank in swords, better build(which is equal to his weight... why isn't Zihark's?)

Also, while one could perhaps argue that Zihark has more potential, Stefan is far less likely to get screwed.

So, overall, going by statistical analysis only, I dare you to attempt to tell me that Zihark is better. They're equal, I'll give you that. But you're still neglecting...

Irrelevant bonus points:

Zihark: Looks no-kinds of cool. - points for grey hair.

Stefan: Looks ALL kinds of cool. His hair's green. GREEN!


There you have it folks.
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Jmyster
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Are you sure about your claim? 9 Points of luck don't matter much? That is a significant 9 points of avoid, an extra bonus to your hit rate, and an equally significant boost to your critical evade, which is ever so important on hard mode (and given that they are not the most bulky of units, one critical can possibly do them in). A large difference such as 9 points of luck, is impossible to ignore. Even if you are arguing for Stefan, you must acknowledge the luck difference as a fairly large gap. You also cannot avoid the defense...actually, if you go by rounding techniques, it is really two defense (and in general, a few points of defense defeats a few points of HP).

I'm afraid that you are going to have to concede that an equally raised Zihark and an equally raised Stefan...Zihark will hold a slight stat advantage over Stefan. However, the difference is very slim. Res still needs to be taken into account in this case...Stefan is clearly the winner against magical onslaughts. You cannot throw out any stat in any debate, no matter how minor.

As a counter-argument...Stefan's starting level and stats...he comes at so high a level that he is dangerously close to being a mid game Jeigan (which can have extra upsides on harder modes). He will come at a higher level than Zihark, so Zihark will have to play catch up with Stefan. Zihark does come for a few extra chapters before Stefan, but unlike in some other debates with other characters, the gap isn't too wide. It's a good thing to keep in mind, in my opinion.

And just to add, for future reference: In a debate, it is only the facts (and your ability to convey ideas) that matter; personal experience is...nothing. Just because I, for instance, have a blessed Sophia from FE6, who gains stat increases endlessly, and far outshines Rei in all my playthroughs...I cannot argue based on that. I can only use the facts, and the facts are clearly against me if I were to state Sophia is better. The opposite holds true...if I have never had a good Raven from FE7, and his stats are constantly screwed, I cannot argue on that...even with fifteen playthroughs of Fire Emblem 7, I have no authority to assert that what happened to me happened to everyone else. I need the real average stats...hard evidence. If you ignore this, then the debate has no purpose.

I, personally, do not favor either of them. I just use Mia...not because she is better, but because she is the first one available to me...and I like her character. Simple as that. Have fun. :squee:
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Yeah

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To change the ugly ways of the world
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I didn’t know it all
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But I did it justice

Oh wait. This isn't a topic about the Dave Matthews song of same name.

Carry on.

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Abyssal_Shrimp
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And to hammer it down, Zihark also has the edge on supports. His support with Brom outshines everything Stefan can claim to have, he also has this game's best affinity, as opposed to Stefan, who has the worst. Both Brom and Ilyana want to support Zihark, Soren... will take Stefan as a second choice since he's his only second option anyway though if given the chance, he'll take Ike anyday. As for the Laguz, Muarim will benefit more from supporting with Zihark than Mordecai with Stefan, but Mordecai is probably the better unit, so that'd be a draw.

So, a concrete stat lead (because 9 Lck is significant), better supports. Stefan has... joining time and level, but Zihark is in no way underleveled anyway, so that's not that much of a point against him.
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Alastair


I never pretended that personal experience equated to fact, but rather that enough of it was a good approximation. Upon seeing that it may have(and apparently was, to a degree) been different from the average, I took the liberty of examining said average. My conclusion was that they were indeed supposed to be equal, based on my own weighted values on each stat.

Yes, I do contest that 9 points of luck won't matter much. In this particular case, at any rate. Were it in the case of a character with lower point values in Speed and Skill stats, it would be a big difference. However, between Stefan and Zihark, the difference is less glaring. I'll give you crit evade, sure, but that doesn't usually come into play. I happen to think the resistance is more important in this pairing, as it's the difference between a terrible Res, and a decent Res.

Here's what I'm saying. Let's say Stefan's got 150 hit, and 80 evade. Assuming he's perfectly average at level 20, and Zihark the same, Zihark will have 159 hit and 89 evade, right?

The thing with that is... Stefan's hit and evade are still huge. So while Zihark's luck is much better indeed, the effect that has on the characters' performance is relative. Now, moving on to resistance. Here, while the difference is of fewer points, it's far more glaring.

Assume for a minute that both are surrounded by 3 mages. Each has an attack of 20, and a hit rate of... 190, for argument's sake. They're attacking from range, obviously, and have no chance of a DA. In the end, assuming again that they're average 20/20s, Stefan will take 21 damage, whilst Zihark takes 36. Stefan still has 25 health, and could sit there unmoving for another round if he felt like it. In fact, he could proceed to kill those mages over the next couple rounds, assuming there are no other enemies, and still survive.

Zihark has less than 10 health. Another hit and he's dead. His only option is to retreat and be healed. Now, maybe you're thinking, "But Tyler, Mages'll never have 190 hit! They'd get to 110 at best! And then Zihark's uber dodge comes into play, making him better! Yay!"

... Not really. Sure, Zihark has uber dodge, leaving those mages with only a 21% hit. Fine. That's neglecting, however, the fact that Stefan still leaves them with only 30% himself, and if he DOES get hit once because he lack that extra 9 evade, big deal, he can pretty well shrug it off.

I'm not even getting into hit percentage, because honestly, at 20/20, neither of them are missing. Ever.

As for their other stats, the magic difference is apparently negligible. The HP and Defense are open to debate, if you ask me. Let's say Zihark's advantage is indeed 2. Alright, it's relevant, but it's not going to make a huge difference. Bonus points to Zihark for that though. As for HP, the more the better. Again, not a huge difference, honestly less of a difference, but still, bonus points to Stefan.

I also think it's relevant to acknowledge the fact that the average stats don't tell the entire story. I'm not talking about personal experience here(and I don't see how I was in my last post either. The first, fine, whatever, but the last was based off stats and opinions of value), but rather how much stats might vary. Stefan's stats are going to come out closer to his averages(apparently >_<) every time, whilst Zihark is a little more risky. More levels means more chance to get messed up. Of course, it means there's equal chance that he'll advance more quickly.

However, there's a bit of a catch to that last point. With the randomness, each stat is just as likely to go up faster as it is to go up slower. The problem, however, is that by 20/20, 3 of their stats are, on average, maxed. This means that regardless of how much faster these rise, in the end, they'll be no higher. Only 5 of the RN'd stats can end up above average in the end, whilst all 8 could end up below average. Because of this, between Stefan and Zihark, higher variability in 20/20 stats can often do more harm than good.

Anyhow, based on the above, I can't see how they could be considered anything other than equal overall, with varying strengths and weaknesses. That said, I still personally prefer Stefan, as I myself have had better experiences with him. And really, perhaps this is a case that comes down to personal experience, as you're likely to prefer the SM who's better suited you in the past. Of course, you could always just take both... But then what about Mia?

To conclude, despite being statistically equal, Stefan wins. How the hell do I come to that conclusion? Again, purple. Enough said.
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Caney
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Actually, Zihark would have 155 Hit.

It's luck /2 for hit, and luck for dodge.
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Alastair


Ah, right, half. Thanks for pointing that out.
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Zan
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Not statistically equal. Zihark's supports push his evade to around 30 more than Stefan. Plus, 80-90 isn't an amazing amount of avoid. IIRC, Laguz often break the 130-140 hit mark, meaning around a 50 hit against Stefan and 20 for Zihark. Dragons have even more hit, but neither of them have any business fighting dragons. >_>

Big difference.

I also find the biggest worry that comes with bad luck is bad critical evade. Both are not the most sturdy regarding purely defense. Enemies might get around 15 mt (just a guess) on them. Stefan may take 45 dmg occasionally, which may be lethal if with some other hits. Zihark has enough luck to not get criticaled by randoms. Well, there are randoms with Killer Weapons, but Zihark's massive avoid lead helps him here.

Also, S ranks is overrated. The Vague Katti is an upgraded Killing Edge, and arguably worse than a forged Silver Sword anyway. By the time Silvers are forgable, Zihark should already have A rank swords. Stefan's weapon rank lead is negligible. And it's not as if both of them can't KO with Steels and such.

Adept > Astra. Half the capacity, allowing for more skills. Vantage + Adept is always nice. Astra does 2.5X damage. Adept does 2X damage. Adept has double the activation rate. Pretty easy win to Adept, IMO.

As for the res...Stefan wins against mages if supports are discounted. With supports, Zihark wins that too. >_>

I do agree on Stefan being more RNG-proof and cooler overall.

Though I'm also saying Mia >>>> Both. Not statistically. >_>

EDIT: Actually Strife, in FE9 the formula for hit does not halve luck. >_>
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My mistake, Alastair, and my apologies.

I guess they changed it from the FE7 + FE8 formulas....

I'm sorry.
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Eh, start ignoring me for now. The amount of mistakes I've been saying (and typing of late) has been pretty high....
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Alastair


Supports are more volatile than any other variable. Fair enough, with proper supports, apparently this Brom support in particular, Zihark's dodge because noticably higher. Fine. One problem.

I'm supposed to use Brom? HA! Never. By the time you get him, Gatrie's about to come back anyways. Ilyana? Not worth the bother of trying to protect another frail little mage. Soren does the trick. Muarim? Muarim? No, you're confused. The name you wanted to say was Mordecai. Why would you ever want to mention Muarim?

Ok, so I'm being overly harsh. They're all decent units. That said, they're not the best of their class. The only one of those three I've ever bothered to take to the end was Ilyana, as I do occaisionally opt for a second mage. A second Knight or Tiger wouldn't be worth the spot in the party.

Oh, I'm sure to get some sort of anit-Gatrie or anti-Mordecai(I doubt anyone will argue Soren's superiority though) sentiment now, but let's try not to start another "who pwns who" argument, m'kay?

At any rate, while Zihark may have better supports in terms of stat gain, Stefan's are more practical. Ike has a lot of support options, and chances are you're not gonna want Soren every time. Stefan takes his place. I kinda enjoy using the two side by side anyways. And if Soren IS taken, go with Mordecai. He's a pretty good unit, worth using half the time, at least.

As for crit evade, I honestly don't worry about it too much. Enemy crits are rare to begin with. I do remember having Stefan get left with like 3 HP after gettin' hit by a Berserker, though he immidiately returned the favour, killing the jerk. Good laugh. Anyhow, I tend to just avoid enemies with killer weapons anyways, and the rest have Crits low enough to be negligible. They're only possible with enemies whose skill is above 18, which isn't a lot of them.


What else... Ah. I didn't know the activation difference between the two skills, in which case I concede that Adept is better. However, Astra's still pretty decent if you ask me, and looks cooler...

As to your final statement, Mia>Zihark for sure. Though, and I hate to say it, she has some tough competition from Stefan. At least in FE9. In 10... I wonder if Stefan'll get to appear in an FMV in like Mia does? Only then could we truly judge who takes the crown of absolute sexiness.

Also, don't misunderstand. I'm not saying that I'm attracted to Stefan. I don't swing that way. Just, y'know, he's dead sexy. Like, I wish I was that sexy.
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I guess my Soren is lucky. He usually always dodges and kicks that persons ass in the counter for that double hit skill thing that activates at times which Soren tends to use alot in my case.
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Alastair
Mar 8 2007, 12:04 AM
Supports are more volatile than any other variable. Fair enough, with proper supports, apparently this Brom support in particular, Zihark's dodge because noticably higher. Fine. One problem.

I'm supposed to use Brom? HA! Never. By the time you get him, Gatrie's about to come back anyways. Ilyana? Not worth the bother of trying to protect another frail little mage. Soren does the trick. Muarim? Muarim? No, you're confused. The name you wanted to say was Mordecai. Why would you ever want to mention Muarim?

Ok, so I'm being overly harsh. They're all decent units. That said, they're not the best of their class. The only one of those three I've ever bothered to take to the end was Ilyana, as I do occaisionally opt for a second mage. A second Knight or Tiger wouldn't be worth the spot in the party.

Oh, I'm sure to get some sort of anit-Gatrie or anti-Mordecai(I doubt anyone will argue Soren's superiority though) sentiment now, but let's try not to start another "who pwns who" argument, m'kay?

At any rate, while Zihark may have better supports in terms of stat gain, Stefan's are more practical. Ike has a lot of support options, and chances are you're not gonna want Soren every time. Stefan takes his place. I kinda enjoy using the two side by side anyways. And if Soren IS taken, go with Mordecai. He's a pretty good unit, worth using half the time, at least.

As for crit evade, I honestly don't worry about it too much. Enemy crits are rare to begin with. I do remember having Stefan get left with like 3 HP after gettin' hit by a Berserker, though he immidiately returned the favour, killing the jerk. Good laugh. Anyhow, I tend to just avoid enemies with killer weapons anyways, and the rest have Crits low enough to be negligible. They're only possible with enemies whose skill is above 18, which isn't a lot of them.


What else... Ah. I didn't know the activation difference between the two skills, in which case I concede that Adept is better. However, Astra's still pretty decent if you ask me, and looks cooler...

As to your final statement, Mia>Zihark for sure. Though, and I hate to say it, she has some tough competition from Stefan. At least in FE9. In 10... I wonder if Stefan'll get to appear in an FMV in like Mia does? Only then could we truly judge who takes the crown of absolute sexiness.

Also, don't misunderstand. I'm not saying that I'm attracted to Stefan. I don't swing that way. Just, y'know, he's dead sexy. Like, I wish I was that sexy.

Ehhh, trying to avoid "unit A > unit B because unit A's support in until C pwns unit B's supports" is too hard. >_>

Brom vs Gatrie.... Brom has more speed and similar str/def. IMO, better supports too. >_>. Gatrie's lvl lead is nice, but Brom has a few chapters before he comes back. You've got some bexp to spare expecially if you used stealth in chapter 10. Of course, I would much rather spend it on people like Nephenee or Jill. <_<. Of course, using both Gatrie and Brom is stupid, as both need the Knight Ward to really be any good. Which is the primary reason why I don't like knights that much anyway. They rely too much on the knight ward to be good.

Muarim is about equal to Mordecai, I'm going to say. I'm guessing Mordecai leads statistically and such slightly at high levels, I haven't looked specifically at stats, but I know for a fact that Mordecai's speed often lags quite a bit. Don't know much about Muarim. Also, IIRC, Muarim's affinity is Earth, which rocks in general, no matter who has it. Plus, since Laguz technically count as promoted units, you really can't use them without draining exp from the rest of the team until about chapter 14-15ish, which is around when Muarim joins. Muarim easily beats out Mordecai at base stats due to a higher level.

Ilyana. Meh, the one time I used her she got spd blessed, but going by averages, her speed is pretty bad. >_>. Still she's a good healer and such and some reasonable strength helps her with high lvl tomes. She is probably one of the only people with a reasonable (slightly) chance of using Rexbolt. She also does have enough speed to double some of the slower enemies I'm guessing, :P

For Stefan's supports...Ike and Soren are indeed 2 of the best characters in the game. However, Ike will probably want Stefan as one of his last supports as he has amazing choices in people like Oscar, Soren, Ranulf, etc. Soren will take a Stefan support, though it does basically nothing. Heaven affinity boosts hits and neither Soren nor Stefan will ever have hit troubles. They do like that slight attack and avoid boost from Soren's dark affinity though, :P

The crit chance is still there, no matter how small, which is enough of a problem. Laguz, snipers, swordmasters, and such easily break 18 skill. I'd imagine some wyvern lords and paladins do as well. Stefan getting left with 3 HP is enough to illustrate this point. Stefan did manage to kill the beserker in return (the beserker hitting is enough to show that Stefan's avoid isn't all that. >_>), but at that low health, even a mage could come up and kill him. Magic has some really good accuracy too. Even thunder is 85 or 90 I believe. Wind's hit is 100 IIRC.

@Oni-link: My Sorens usually turn out really well also, :P. He's one of the those people I use every playthrough. :P

Finally, Mia is FE10 is so much win. >_>
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Alastair


... No one said Ike would ever support Stefan... That's not an option... You misunderstood. I simply said that Soren would take Stefan when he couldn't take Ike, which would be most of the time. Anyhow, though I did admit Stefan's support gains aren't the greatest, they're practical, and any support is better than none.

I'm not gonna start arguing about the other characters much. Simply, I prefer Gatrie, as despite being somewhat better in Skl and Spd, Brom is still slow anyways. At least Gatrie's OHKO'n all sorts of jerks. Mordecai is generally better than Muarim but a smallish margin, if I remember correctly. As for joining level, that's kinda irrelevant, as it is in the Stefan/Zihark debate. If someone's too high, bench 'em 'til they aren't. Muarim's too high leveled himself at that point. As for Ilyana... she's alright as a second mage. If you want a second mage. Which I rarely do. They're useful, but frail. Soren's enough.

As for the Crits, I honestly can't remember a single instance of Stefan getting killed off one, though I'd have tales to tell about jerks like Ike taking a crit out of nowhere. The berserker was a freak incident. He had like low-30 crit, but only like 10 hit. I didn't see it coming. It was practically the Spanish Inquisition.
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Alastair
Mar 8 2007, 01:24 AM
... lol.


I have two things to say to answer everything in your post.

1. All my corrections were based on their average stats. These are FACTS, not opinions.
2. Personal experience still means nothing.
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iammax
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Feb 24 2007, 03:53 PM
That's a suspiciously low amount of kills. My Ike usually ends up with around 200.

O_O

On my last Runthrough, Ike was number one with about 80. I mean, I used about 16 people, but still...
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Abyssal_Shrimp
I broke my shades!

Let's see what we have here...

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Here's what I'm saying. Let's say Stefan's got 150 hit, and 80 evade. Assuming he's perfectly average at level 20, and Zihark the same, Zihark will have 159 hit and 89 evade, right?
ving on to resistance. Here, while the difference is of fewer points, it's far more glaring.


Um, no. Stefan's avoid, at 20/20, considering B Soren, will be of 73. Zihark, considering A Brom, will be of 92.6. Now, at that point in the game, an enemy having 120 hit isn't exactly uncommon. Assuming that, the foe will have an hit rate of 47 on Stefan, and 27.4 on Zihark.

Stefan's getting hit TWICE as much. And that's not all. Let's not forget FE uses a wacky dual-RN system that skewers the hit rate and make them different than what they appear to be. In this case, when applying this system, the hit rates become 44.6 on Stefen, and 14.8 on Zihark. At that point, discarding Zihark's defense lead, Stefan's taking more than triple Zihark's damage.

Heck, even without factoring supports, the hit rates are of 52 on Stefan and 42.4 on Zihark, and when factoring the dual-RN system, it's 54.4 on Stefan and 35.7 on Zihark, so he's still taking more than 1.5 times Zihark's damage. I fail to see how this isn't significant.

You,re also uttertly overrating Res's influence. You r example with three mages basically doesn't happen. First, because why the heck would you send either Stefan or Zihark alone against three mages, and second, I can count on half the fingers on my left hand the number of occasions this would happen, simply because mages are much, much more rare than physical units. and with the dodge lead, if Stefan is taking 10 damage or more, the avoid cancels the Res anyway.

Also, your argument was stupid because there's no way in hell a mage will have 190 hit rate. All this does is arbitrarily cancelling Zihark's dodge advantage, or in other words, manipulating the data in Stefan's favor. And since your calaulation of both's dodge rate was false as well, your counter for that is null and void.

Seriously, if you want to debate, use the actual numbers. Don't sway them in your favor, it only makes you look stupid.

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The HP and Defense are open to debate, if you ask me.


No they aren't. they're the hard facts, calculated using proven statistic methods and the game's formula. There is no debating those averages.

Quote:
 
Let's say Zihark's advantage is indeed 2. Alright, it's relevant, but it's not going to make a huge difference. Bonus points to Zihark for that though. As for HP, the more the better. Again, not a huge difference, honestly less of a difference, but still, bonus points to Stefan.


2 Defense >>> 2 HP. 2 HP is like 2 Defense, but only for one hit. The 2 Def stays.

Quote:
 
but rather how much stats might vary. Stefan's stats are going to come out closer to his averages(apparently >_<) every time, whilst Zihark is a little more risky. More levels means more chance to get messed up. Of course, it means there's equal chance that he'll advance more quickly.

However, there's a bit of a catch to that last point. With the randomness, each stat is just as likely to go up faster as it is to go up slower. The problem, however, is that by 20/20, 3 of their stats are, on average, maxed. This means that regardless of how much faster these rise, in the end, they'll be no higher. Only 5 of the RN'd stats can end up above average in the end, whilst all 8 could end up below average. Because of this, between Stefan and Zihark, higher variability in 20/20 stats can often do more harm than good.


Thing is, not the whole game is played at 20/20. Actually, a very small part of it is, so Zihark's possibility of lead in Str, Skl and Spd can still matter quite a bit. Caps don't tell the whole story, far from it.

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Anyhow, based on the above, I can't see how they could be considered anything other than equal overall, with varying strengths and weaknesses. That said, I still personally prefer Stefan, as I myself have had better experiences with him. And really, perhaps this is a case that comes down to personal experience, as you're likely to prefer the SM who's better suited you in the past. Of course, you could always just take both... But then what about Mia?


Nope. Zihark has a solid durability lead over Stefan with equivalent offense. He wins, plain and simple. And Mia is inferior to both of them by a rather good margin, seeing as her offense is ridiculous and her defense not better.

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I'm supposed to use Brom? HA! Never. By the time you get him, Gatrie's about to come back anyways.


Brom is superior to Gatrie, but I won't get into that unless you wish it so.

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At any rate, while Zihark may have better supports in terms of stat gain, Stefan's are more practical.


Not at all. They come into play later, and the gains are near useless. Zihark's has better gains, with good units, and can be done earlier. Clear win for Zihark, all around.

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As to your final statement, Mia>Zihark for sure.


Hell no. She's worse than both male SMs. Prove the opposite.

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Which is the primary reason why I don't like knights that much anyway. They rely too much on the knight ward to be good.


Who the heck would get the KW anyway? Nephenee? Have fun capping Spd at 20/5.
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Ahahahaha- *snort* -hahahaha- *snort* -heheheh

*Is about to type up a longass counter*

*Sees Shrimp's posts*

...Good thing I noticed that one.

I could see Mia being argued over Stefan based on a few things, but he pretty much said it.

Also, Stefan only has one HP on Zihark on average at level 20/20, while Zihark has 10 luck on him. Though Stefan is admittedly closer to another point than Zihark. Why're you using level 20/20 anyways? Level 20/10-15 tends to lead to arguments that factor in caps far more fairly.
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Abyssal_Shrimp
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It probably would, but Zihark has the lead before too, anyway.
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KJ456
Mar 8 2007, 03:26 PM
Also, Stefan only has one HP on Zihark on average at level 20/20, while Zihark has 10 luck on him. Though Stefan is admittedly closer to another point than Zihark. Why're you using level 20/20 anyways? Level 20/10-15 tends to lead to arguments that factor in caps far more fairly.

I also used Stefan's starting level (20/8) to compare them, though your point is still valid.
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Ahahahaha- *snort* -hahahaha- *snort* -heheheh

Well, other than the fact that on its own it completely disregards one character's growths, that's also a valid comparison. I believe comparing that and an endgame level is the norm.
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Abyssal_Shrimp
I broke my shades!

20/20 isn't actually a very good comparison level, but I was only countering his points anyway. >_>
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What's the general opinion on the Swordmasters? I've used them all once, and based on PE, they're all about even for me.
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Abyssal_Shrimp
I broke my shades!

Zihark > Stefan >>> Mia >>>>>> Lucia.

But none of them are outstanding.
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Well, I suppose I have no need to counter just yet then. I have work to do now anyway.
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SCRUB SCRUB SCRUB

*didnt intend to start a Zihark vs Stefan warzone topic*

T_T

Also, Alastair...you said Zihark didnt look cool....

BLASPHEMY!!!
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KJ456
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Ahahahaha- *snort* -hahahaha- *snort* -heheheh

Well, considering that he's being compared to Stefan, you can't really argue anything but exaggeration. >_>
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Yes, Stefan looks cool....but so does Zihark!!
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Abyssal_Shrimp
I broke my shades!

*steals Jym's thunder*

*gets shocked* Yeow! Me and my crazy ideas of stealing electricity...
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Alastair


This is getting hilarious. Seriously.

Quote:
 
Um, no. Stefan's avoid, at 20/20, considering B Soren, will be of 73. Zihark, considering A Brom, will be of 92.6. Now, at that point in the game, an enemy having 120 hit isn't exactly uncommon. Assuming that, the foe will have an hit rate of 47 on Stefan, and 27.4 on Zihark. Stefan's getting hit TWICE as much. And that's not all. Let's not forget FE uses a wacky dual-RN system that skewers the hit rate and make them different than what they appear to be. In this case, when applying this system, the hit rates become 44.6 on Stefen, and 14.8 on Zihark. At that point, discarding Zihark's defense lead, Stefan's taking more than triple Zihark's damage.


I believe I just explained that supports need to be disregarded, as they rely on the use and proximity of other characters. They're especially silly when you're factoring different levels of support.

Quote:
 
Heck, even without factoring supports, the hit rates are of 52 on Stefan and 42.4 on Zihark, and when factoring the dual-RN system, it's 54.4 on Stefan and 35.7 on Zihark, so he's still taking more than 1.5 times Zihark's damage. I fail to see how this isn't significant.


Ah, sans supports now? Better. Now, I don't know what the crap with dual RN stuff you're talking about is to begin with. As much as I'd just like to scream "fallacy!", I can't say for sure, so we'll consider it for the time being. Also, I'd like to point out that while enemies with 120 hit aren't rare, they're not exactly abundant either. They're usually the snipers and swordmasters, and as far as I've seen, not usually anyone else.

Quote:
 
You,re also uttertly overrating Res's influence. You r example with three mages basically doesn't happen. First, because why the heck would you send either Stefan or Zihark alone against three mages, and second, I can count on half the fingers on my left hand the number of occasions this would happen, simply because mages are much, much more rare than physical units. and with the dodge lead, if Stefan is taking 10 damage or more, the avoid cancels the Res anyway.

Also, your argument was stupid because there's no way in hell a mage will have 190 hit rate. All this does is arbitrarily cancelling Zihark's dodge advantage, or in other words, manipulating the data in Stefan's favor.


... You've never seen three mages in the same place? Wow, I suppose I really am playing a different game.

You're right about one thing there though, I'd certainly never send Zihark alone into three, or honestly even 2 mages. It's risky. Stefan though? Yeah, I'll send that guy against just about anything other than Dragons. One thing I've been trying to point ou tthis whole time is that Stefan lacks any manner of glaring weaknesses... Anyhow, I'm not seeing where Zihark's evade is cancelling the Res difference, unless you're going by that A support with Brom thing. In which case, I hope you like a dead Brom. I sure do.

Oh, and yes, you're right, mages will never have 190 hit. You caught me. I certainly wasn't creating a situation that calculated only the Res, I was trying to convince you that Stefan wins because mages in FE9 are ridiculously uber.

Quote:
 
And since your calaulation of both's dodge rate was false as well, your counter for that is null and void.

Seriously, if you want to debate, use the actual numbers. Don't sway them in your favor, it only makes you look stupid.


Um, alright. You're missing the point. The stats weren't in any way meant to represent their real stats, but rather the difference between them. I don't care how you wanna slice it, with all your damn supports and apparent crazy systems, but on a character's status page, assuming they have the same weapon and no supports nearby, Zihark's dodge is only 9 more than Stefan's.

I don't see where I'm swaying stats in my favour. I was simply examining them individually, to demonstrate the differences between the two characters...

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No they aren't. they're the hard facts, calculated using proven statistic methods and the game's formula. There is no debating those averages.

2 Defense >>> 2 HP. 2 HP is like 2 Defense, but only for one hit. The 2 Def stays.


People seem to continually assume I'm trying to deny the averages. I didn't say the averages were up to debate. I was talking about the value of these factors. The thing is, any stat that's within one or two difference on average has less significance towards a single playthrough, which is of course the only thing we can base judgements on. The thing is, counting on Zihark to get that average of 2 more defense isn't the best idea. That stat's likely to vary, and even if it stays to the average, it's not a huge difference anyways, and in most confrontations won't mean all too much. Stefan's higher HP is more stable, more of a sure thing. However, that HP will be less valuable than 2 extra defense in most situations.

What I'm trying to say is that these two stats are both variable and generally insignificant. Even conforming to the average, which isn't a perfect system, those stats themselves won't represent a glaring difference between the two characters.

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Thing is, not the whole game is played at 20/20. Actually, a very small part of it is, so Zihark's possibility of lead in Str, Skl and Spd can still matter quite a bit. Caps don't tell the whole story, far from it.


Um, ok, but you realize that tips the argument more in my favour than yours, right? 'Cause, using the averages you so love, Zihark doesn't lead in strength or skill, Stefan takes both.

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Nope. Zihark has a solid durability lead over Stefan with equivalent offense. He wins, plain and simple. And Mia is inferior to both of them by a rather good margin, seeing as her offense is ridiculous and her defense not better.


Solid durability lead? Marginal at best. And, since we just decided that we're not going by 20/20, then it should perhaps be noted that Stefan actually has better offense... You also seem to be entirely disregarding an important point.

The thing about Stefan is that he's a much more reliable unit. Sure, I'll admit that Zihark does have the potential to come out being a bit better, but he could just as easily come out worse by the same margin. You're putting a little much too much weight on the averages alone. You're failing to factor in the variability due to the randomized stat growths. The averages you're citing only show the average based over a ridiculously large amount of playthroughs. Also, one needs to realize that just because something is considered the average, doesn't mean it's necessarily how things will likely turn out. Zihark is more volatile, his stats tending to vary a decent degree from the average. Stefan suffers less from this, having fewer than half as many levels to do.

The thing is, you gotta decide what's best for each individual playthrough, not what's gonna be best over 10 000 of 'em. Zihark has a higher get-screwed percentage, which I personally consider a negative point. I'd rather not waste my time training him to find that, in the end, he only manages to cap speed. Which is a very real possibility.

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Brom is superior to Gatrie, but I won't get into that unless you wish it so.


I think not. I hate Brom with a passion. However, typing enourmous arguments takes forever. I've homework to do. Let's just agree to disagree here.

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Not at all. They come into play later, and the gains are near useless. Zihark's has better gains, with good units, and can be done earlier. Clear win for Zihark, all around.


Three chapters later...

>_< Copy my arguments from the last post here. Ilyana and Muarim are second string, and I personally think Brom is too. I'm not in the mood to argue any more about supports though. They're super-situational anyways. I'd personally like to ignore them for the time being, though if it'll get me away from the topic, I'll concede that Zihark has a support advantage, regardless of my actual opinion.

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Hell no. She's worse than both male SMs. Prove the opposite.


You're joking, right? This was clearly a statement made for no reason other than blatant Mia-fanboyism. She's cute. That's it. I figured that was obvious.


Other points:

Sabre, thank you for disregarding any further posts of mine. You're right, my entire arguments are based on hear-say. >_<

Korit, no. Zihark looks like he's off to the NAMBLA convention. He's just not a cool dude. He doesn't have the non-chalant attitude down either. And he dies. Cool characters just kinda wander off like it's nothing.
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Alastair
Mar 8 2007, 05:42 PM
Now, I don't know what the crap with dual RN stuff you're talking about is to begin with. As much as I'd just like to scream "fallacy!"

The hit percentages in FE games lie. :LEGASP:

For each hit, the RN actually takes 2 numbers and rounds them together.
For example, lets say that Bob is fighting a FE bad guy and he has a 90 hit. What actually happens is that he has to get a least 2 numbers that have an average of 90 to miss. Even if the first number is 100, if the other one is under 80 Bob still hits because (79+100)/2<90. (actually, I don't know if it rounds or not >_>).
This is why a 90 hit will usually hit more than 9/10s of the time.
This is also why those 20 hit rates only hit 1/10 of the time. :whatever:
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This is getting hilarious. Seriously.


Can't argue here.

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I believe I just explained that supports need to be disregarded, as they rely on the use and proximity of other characters. They're especially silly when you're factoring different levels of support.


'mkay, if you wish it so, I'll disregard supports. It doesn't change the fact Stefan loses, anyway. But keep in mind that supports make =the character better, so not using them is intentionally not using bonuses, and I don't feel I should take into account the fact you're intentionally worsening Zihark's potential by not using his supports while I can.

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Ah, sans supports now? Better. Now, I don't know what the crap with dual RN stuff you're talking about is to begin with. As much as I'd just like to scream "fallacy!", I can't say for sure, so we'll consider it for the time being. Also, I'd like to point out that while enemies with 120 hit aren't rare, they're not exactly abundant either. They're usually the snipers and swordmasters, and as far as I've seen, not usually anyone else.


It's all true. Also, if we go under 120 hit, Zihark's dodge advantage gets even better. At 110 hit, it's 42 on Stefan and 32.4 on Zihark, resulting in 35 and 20. Now it's a 175% ratio instead of a 150% one. At 100, it's 32 and 22.4, for about 20 and 10. 200% ratio.

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... You've never seen three mages in the same place? Wow, I suppose I really am playing a different game.


Name me 3 chapters where this is likely to occur. I know I can't.

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Anyhow, I'm not seeing where Zihark's evade is cancelling the Res difference,


Simple. If Stefan's taking 10 damage, then Zihark's taking 15. But since Stefan is being hit 1.5 times more often than Zihark, they're roughly taking the same damage overall. If this goes over the 10-15 damage ratio, Zihark is actually better.

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Um, alright. You're missing the point. The stats weren't in any way meant to represent their real stats, but rather the difference between them. I don't care how you wanna slice it, with all your damn supports and apparent crazy systems, but on a character's status page, assuming they have the same weapon and no supports nearby, Zihark's dodge is only 9 more than Stefan's.

I don't see where I'm swaying stats in my favour. I was simply examining them individually, to demonstrate the differences between the two characters...


Oh really? Lookie here :

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Oh, and yes, you're right, mages will never have 190 hit. You caught me. I certainly wasn't creating a situation that calculated only the Res, I was trying to convince you that Stefan wins because mages in FE9 are ridiculously uber.


See the bolded part. That's where you swayed stats in your favor. You isolated Res, which is in Stefan's favor, while alienating dodge, which is Zihark's good point. You took things out of context. But it doesn't work that way. In my example, it concluded that against mages, Stefan was only better if the enemy was dealing less than 10 damage, and my example was taking into account EVERY statistical variable, instead of only one. Therefore, my example is valid ; yours is not.

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People seem to continually assume I'm trying to deny the averages. I didn't say the averages were up to debate. I was talking about the value of these factors. The thing is, any stat that's within one or two difference on average has less significance towards a single playthrough, which is of course the only thing we can base judgements on. The thing is, counting on Zihark to get that average of 2 more defense isn't the best idea. That stat's likely to vary, and even if it stays to the average, it's not a huge difference anyways, and in most confrontations won't mean all too much. Stefan's higher HP is more stable, more of a sure thing. However, that HP will be less valuable than 2 extra defense in most situations.


What utter hypocrisy. You say the Def lead is shaky and insignificant, while the HP lead is stable? Zihark is as likely to get Def screwed as he is to get HP blessed, so neither of those stat lead are more concrete than the other. Heck, he could get Def blessed and increase the Def lead, too, or HP screwed, inmproving Stefan's lead. We could take every scenario of screwing/blessing and analyse them, but that would be stupid. That's why the averages exist and are used as the hard on facts. Because Zihark is more likely to hit his averages than anything else. And in the end, on average, they'll be there, so there's no avoiding it.

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Um, ok, but you realize that tips the argument more in my favour than yours, right? 'Cause, using the averages you so love, Zihark doesn't lead in strength or skill, Stefan takes both.


Conceded for slight offense lead... of not even 1 Str point. Skl is quite irrelevant, they're not missing stuff. The defensive lead is more dignificant than that.

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Solid durability lead? Marginal at best. And, since we just decided that we're not going by 20/20, then it should perhaps be noted that Stefan actually has better offense...


If his defensive lead is marginal, then Stefan's offense lead is practically unexistant.

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You also seem to be entirely disregarding an important point.

The thing about Stefan is that he's a much more reliable unit. Sure, I'll admit that Zihark does have the potential to come out being a bit better, but he could just as easily come out worse by the same margin. You're putting a little much too much weight on the averages alone. You're failing to factor in the variability due to the randomized stat growths. The averages you're citing only show the average based over a ridiculously large amount of playthroughs. Also, one needs to realize that just because something is considered the average, doesn't mean it's necessarily how things will likely turn out. Zihark is more volatile, his stats tending to vary a decent degree from the average. Stefan suffers less from this, having fewer than half as many levels to do.

The thing is, you gotta decide what's best for each individual playthrough, not what's gonna be best over 10 000 of 'em. Zihark has a higher get-screwed percentage, which I personally consider a negative point. I'd rather not waste my time training him to find that, in the end, he only manages to cap speed. Which is a very real possibility.


I'm not diregarding it, but you make it seem much more important than it actually is. Zihark's stats are more variable, granted. But the average don't show the stats based on a large amount of playthroughs, they are calculated using statistics methods, and they are the most likely result from Zihark. For every time he'll end up weaker than he could on average, he'll also end up stronger, too. So overall, it evens out to the average stats, and that's why we use them. By you logic, I suppose Calill is also much better than Soren, because Soren could actually end up screwed and Calill would not? Of course not, because Soren usually ends up better, despite the chances of being screwed. Same here.while it's somewhat of a point for Stefan, it's nothing significant enough to give him any sort of advantage over Zihark.
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I believe I just explained that supports need to be disregarded, as they rely on the use and proximity of other characters. They're especially silly when you're factoring different levels of support.


It's not that hard to keep units within 3 spaces of each other. I also don't see how supports are silly at all. :P. Using 2 good units + getting a bonus for having them together sounds good to me. There's really no reason not to have supports, as they can only help. :P. Obviously though, some supports are better than others. Anyway, you can't ignore supports because they strengthen the other side's case. >_>

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Ah, sans supports now? Better. Now, I don't know what the crap with dual RN stuff you're talking about is to begin with. As much as I'd just like to scream "fallacy!", I can't say for sure, so we'll consider it for the time being. Also, I'd like to point out that while enemies with 120 hit aren't rare, they're not exactly abundant either. They're usually the snipers and swordmasters, and as far as I've seen, not usually anyone else.


Dual RN system is indeed true. >_>. There's a conversion chart somewhere...And besides 120 hit is not rare. Laguz of all kind surpass that number easily. Mages/Sages only need around 15 skill and some luck to easily push their hit pass 120 as well. I don't think it's uncommon for Paladins and such to have around 16-18 skill near endgame, either. :P. Also, both characters are not always 20/20 at endgame. They may not reach it at all, so some of the avoid stats are slightly unpractical. :P

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... You've never seen three mages in the same place? Wow, I suppose I really am playing a different game.

You're right about one thing there though, I'd certainly never send Zihark alone into three, or honestly even 2 mages. It's risky. Stefan though? Yeah, I'll send that guy against just about anything other than Dragons. One thing I've been trying to point ou tthis whole time is that Stefan lacks any manner of glaring weaknesses... Anyhow, I'm not seeing where Zihark's evade is cancelling the Res difference, unless you're going by that A support with Brom thing. In which case, I hope you like a dead Brom. I sure do.

Oh, and yes, you're right, mages will never have 190 hit. You caught me. I certainly wasn't creating a situation that calculated only the Res, I was trying to convince you that Stefan wins because mages in FE9 are ridiculously uber.


Considering Zihark has better durability than Stefan, basically anything you can send Stefan against, Zihark will almost always do better. >_>. Whatever weaknesses of Zihark you claim he has, Stefan probably does worse. :P. Regarding resistance, mages are not even close to overpowered in this game. Wind and fire magic are pathetic in terms of might. Thunder is ok, with stuff like Elthunder with 7? (not sure) might. The mages that you recieve are very good, since they have huge magic stats and such, but randoms....no. >_>

Also, Brom may not have amazing resistance, but mages are at most doing 10 dmg to him anyway, cause they suck. >_>. Maybe the higher-end sages do more, but either way, Brom has plenty of Hp to absorb blows. Also, since he has massive defense, he will barely be damaged from the melee side. And melee units outnumber mages very badly. Brom has one of the best overall durabilities in the game. Especially with his Water affinity. :P. (Yes I know you don't like supports. >_>)

Oh, did I mention Brom gets more resistance than Stefan? Plus he usualy gets the Knight Ward for 2 more. Plus supports. >_>

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People seem to continually assume I'm trying to deny the averages. I didn't say the averages were up to debate. I was talking about the value of these factors. The thing is, any stat that's within one or two difference on average has less significance towards a single playthrough, which is of course the only thing we can base judgements on. The thing is, counting on Zihark to get that average of 2 more defense isn't the best idea. That stat's likely to vary, and even if it stays to the average, it's not a huge difference anyways, and in most confrontations won't mean all too much. Stefan's higher HP is more stable, more of a sure thing. However, that HP will be less valuable than 2 extra defense in most situations.

What I'm trying to say is that these two stats are both variable and generally insignificant. Even conforming to the average, which isn't a perfect system, those stats themselves won't represent a glaring difference between the two characters.


It's true that 2 defense doesn't matter that much. But it's better than 2 Hp. Not much better, but still better. The stats may vary, but the lead is still there for Zihark on average. :P

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Um, ok, but you realize that tips the argument more in my favour than yours, right? 'Cause, using the averages you so love, Zihark doesn't lead in strength or skill, Stefan takes both.


Caps do matter once a characters starts hitting them, but before then, say....at lvl 20/10, there may be a different story. Anyway at 20/10. Stefan has a small half of a point lead in strength, a 3 point lead in skill, though skill is one of the most useless stats on swordmasters. :P. Zihark leads in speed by 1, but both are easily doubling. Zihark also leads luck by 8 and defense by 2, while losing resistance by 4. They tie in HP and magic doesn't matter. Even granted that they probably won't be at 20/10 at the same time, Stefan will probably hit it first, Zihark leads in durability (massively if counting supports). He also could in theroy lead offense due to adept, but that's hard to quantify so we'll say Stefan leads in offense here. Regardless, Stefan's attack is at best slightly better than Zihark's. He probably isn't KOing something Zihark can't also KO. Neither are reaching Sage/Wyvern/General w/ Knight Ward/Ike lvls are attack anyway. Swordmasters aren't that good in general, :P. The point is though, Zihark's durability lead + added support for the team > Stefan's slight offensively lead. Remember that Zihark's Earth affinity gives other units of the team massive avoid, while Stefan gives them hit. But you don't like supports so meh. :P

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Solid durability lead? Marginal at best. And, since we just decided that we're not going by 20/20, then it should perhaps be noted that Stefan actually has better offense... You also seem to be entirely disregarding an important point.


Durability lead is very solid. See Shrimp's hit rate numbers and such.

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The thing about Stefan is that he's a much more reliable unit. Sure, I'll admit that Zihark does have the potential to come out being a bit better, but he could just as easily come out worse by the same margin. You're putting a little much too much weight on the averages alone. You're failing to factor in the variability due to the randomized stat growths. The averages you're citing only show the average based over a ridiculously large amount of playthroughs. Also, one needs to realize that just because something is considered the average, doesn't mean it's necessarily how things will likely turn out. Zihark is more volatile, his stats tending to vary a decent degree from the average. Stefan suffers less from this, having fewer than half as many levels to do.

The thing is, you gotta decide what's best for each individual playthrough, not what's gonna be best over 10 000 of 'em. Zihark has a higher get-screwed percentage, which I personally consider a negative point. I'd rather not waste my time training him to find that, in the end, he only manages to cap speed. Which is a very real possibility.


Yes, we call that "RNG proof." However, you also seem to discount Zihark's "get blessed percentage" which combined with the "get screwed percentage" forms something remarkably close to average stats. >_>. Besides, there's always fixed mode for people like you. :P. Anyway you wouldn't consider people like Ike or Soren bad would you? Look how many more levels they have to get screwed, even compared to Zihark. :P

Also, I'll ignore the other character debates for now. >_>.

lol long post.


Etharel, level 9 Gladiator Guardian - I like how my HP refuses to go up with a 70% growth. >_>
Siven, level 15/6 Wyvern Lord Dragonmaster - lol, I have more res than def. X_x
Leyla, level 20/6 General Spearmaster - I am the weirdest general you will ever find. >_>
Aryiel, level 20/6 Druidess Prophetress - Need. More. Con. ;_;
Airea, level 14 Mage - lol, I have more def than Aryiel. ^_^
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...Pardon me for interrupting, but why are you guys arguing about which swordmaster is better than the others? >.>
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Alastair


'Cause these fools don't understand the awesomeness of green hair, clearly. >_<

... for the hell of it?


I'm not gonna bother adressing all of that, 'cause this argument is redundant at this point. Just a few one line responses.

I discount supports because they rely on the presence of another specific character, thus being highly situational.

I've already conceded that Zihark has the better dodge. I still contest that Stefan's dodge is plenty.

3 mage incidences? I'll play some tonight, and get back to you on that.

Due to the general weakness of the mages themselves, Stefan is generally taking closer to 6 or 7 damage, while Zihark takes 11 or 12, widening the ration somewhat.

As for swaying stats in my favour, I also did the same for dodge, so wouldn't that sway it in your favour equally? Of course, I suppose we'll ignore that...

I wasn't implying that Stefan's HP lead was consistant, I was implying that the stat itself was. As are all of his stats, compared to Zihark.

A difference of 1 point decides whether something is marginal or non existant? It seems more appropriate to classify both as marginal.

Comparing this situation to a Calill vs. Soren situation is ridiculous. Unlike in that comparison, Stefan and Zihark's stats are overall pretty equal, despite what you seem to think. Zihark may be capable of a slight lead, but stability is a plus for Stefan.


On to Zan.

I'm not ignoring supports because they support the other side. I personally think that Zihark's supports are impractical. Apparently that's irrelevant, so since my opinion on the subject doesn't matter, I'm just ignoring them.

I was clearly referencing horrid Res when saying Zihark had a weakness. As such, he can't fight well against mages, whilst Stefan can. And I still don't think Zihark's 'durability advantage' is that huge.

Brom's resistance is apparently pretty much even to Stefan's. Surprising. Of course, it's important to note that Brom's dodge is much worse...

Come back at 20/15 and Stefan would be doing better. His growths, amusingly, are better than Zihark's. So meh.

Swordmasters aren't very good? *watches 'em go crit-crazy* Ok...

I know what RNG proof is. >_<

His get blessed percentage is equal, I never said otherwise. However, it has less value, as in the long run 3 of his stats can only drop.

Also, it's worth noting that Zihark's stats aren't usually the average, nor remarkably close. They're usually pretty close, but with various stats exceeding or failing to meet the average by 1 - 3 points.

No, I wouldn't consider Ike or Soren bad(Ike pisses me off a lot though)... and I don't consider Zihark bad. You may have noticed that I haven't been arguing that he's terrible, or even worse than Stefan. My argument is that each has their pros and cons, making them what I would say is pretty equal overall. That said, I still prefer Stefan, as his strengths and weaknesses are more appealing to me, personally.

Also, when two guys are even, there's an unwritten law that says you must use the dude with green hair. That's a fact.


Really, the best solution would be to use both of them, and drop Mia. But, come on. That's practically a sin.


I don't really want to argue anymore. Even while I tried to do that fast, it still took forever. I think it's time we agree to disagree, no? I've noticed that I'm beginning to sound hostile anyways...
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Zan
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Eh whatever. >_>

Debating is fun though...
Etharel, level 9 Gladiator Guardian - I like how my HP refuses to go up with a 70% growth. >_>
Siven, level 15/6 Wyvern Lord Dragonmaster - lol, I have more res than def. X_x
Leyla, level 20/6 General Spearmaster - I am the weirdest general you will ever find. >_>
Aryiel, level 20/6 Druidess Prophetress - Need. More. Con. ;_;
Airea, level 14 Mage - lol, I have more def than Aryiel. ^_^
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Alastair


Indeed it is, but I think we've run over everything relevant at least once by now. I'd happily argue something new, lol.
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Alastair
Mar 8 2007, 10:36 PM
Really, the best solution would be to use both of them, and drop Mia. But, come on. That's practically a sin.

... {did that in her playthrough due to not realizing in time that the AS-loss formula had changed and Mia would eventually be able to wield Iron swords without AS loss}

>.>;;
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It sounds like a fancy cologne.


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HELLO EVERYBODY

I think I'm the only one who uses Zihark/Mia/Stefan and Soren/Ilyana/Tormod fairly evenly. Well, I'll usually pick 2 from each one per playthrough, but it's fairly even.

Except Tormod, though. >_>
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Ahahahaha- *snort* -hahahaha- *snort* -heheheh

Y'know, Ally, you're disregarding the facts that Stefan against the most accurate of enemies is hit 1.5 times as often as Zihark, and that that multiplier increases as their accuracy drops, a tad too easily, IMO.

And I tend to use Mia, Stefan, Ilyana and Calill of the sages/SMs. The alternatives bore me (except Bastian. Bastian's awesome).
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I agree, none of the Swordmasters are really outstanding. <_<
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Gigs
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HELLO EVERYBODY

I wouldn't say that none are outstanding, it's just more of a those 3 are all good, solid units and useful in different ways.
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Gigs
Mar 9 2007, 02:11 PM
I wouldn't say that none are outstanding, it's just more of a those 3 are all good, solid units and useful in different ways.

Pretty much so.

Plus, unless you're playing Maniac Mode, the game's not so exceedingly difficult that you're going to need the absolute strongest characters to win.
4:24 PM - John Ѯzzingford: "Alternate Universes".
4:24 PM - John Ѯzzingford: Taking an existing set of characters, and putting them in an altogether different setting.
4:25 PM - John Ѯzzingford: For example, you could take the cast of the Mario games, and set them up in some kind of detective-versus-cannibal-mastermind drama.
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Gigs
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HELLO EVERYBODY

But Maniac Mode isn't around in the US version of FE9. >_>
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Bears


Yeah, so it pretty much doesn't make a difference unless your characters get RNG screwed pretty badly.

Hell, there are people who use Marcus throughout the entirety of FE6 Hard.
4:24 PM - John Ѯzzingford: "Alternate Universes".
4:24 PM - John Ѯzzingford: Taking an existing set of characters, and putting them in an altogether different setting.
4:25 PM - John Ѯzzingford: For example, you could take the cast of the Mario games, and set them up in some kind of detective-versus-cannibal-mastermind drama.
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Jmyster
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I'm just going to have Touhou infect everything now

Mmm, just for his starting stats. Early on, he is a god. He is good at not dying, and he can weaken foes for your characters to get exp/rescue units/perform tasks necessary to survive/fight on the frontline. Midgame, he is a decent filler who can occassionally weaken things for you to kill. Beyond that...well, there is no point, really. By Chapter 16, he's one round kill fodder from the enemies.
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Fallen Morning Flare
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HiMAT Laharl!

The lack of Soren on your killboard makes me wonder if he got croaked. >.>;;;

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Gigs
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HELLO EVERYBODY

Korit
Feb 24 2007, 02:53 PM
Soulavenger69
Feb 24 2007, 12:48 PM
I'm guessing the people that died were Reyson, Shinon, Rolf, Mist and Soren >>

Soren WAS one >.>

The other four...were...

lemme think....

Soren...Mia, Ilyana,Haar, Stefan

Soren died early on, Mia/Ilyana died on that one 4 part chapter, so i was too lazy to go back and save them, and Haar/Stefan died on the last chapter, cause Haar got raped by Bolting-ish magix, and Stefan REFUSED TO DODGE THOSE DAM CATS!!!

*coughcoughlearntoreadFlarecough*
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KJ456
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Ahahahaha- *snort* -hahahaha- *snort* -heheheh

Soren never gets a spot on my top 5 and I only lost him once. I think I even restarted that chapter for some reason. >_>
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SabreCut
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Don't worry guys, I got a good price for selling you out

He always gets in the top 5 for me, usually 2nd or 3rd.
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Abyssal_Shrimp
I broke my shades!

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I've already conceded that Zihark has the better dodge. I still contest that Stefan's dodge is plenty.


Uh, did you miss the part where I say Stefan takes 1.5 times more hits than Zihark at least? Stefan can dodge rather well. I can admit that. But the debate here is about who's better. Even if Stefan was strong enough you could send him alone and he'd survive 100 attacks, the fact stays that in the same situation, if you sent Zihark instead, he'd survive 150 attacks. He's plain better in durability, no matter how solid Stefan is, Zihark is more. We're not debating who can perform well in the game, we're debating who's better. And Zihark is.

Quote:
 
As for swaying stats in my favour, I also did the same for dodge, so wouldn't that sway it in your favour equally? Of course, I suppose we'll ignore that...


I ignored it because the numbers you used were faulty. Which means your example was worth nothing.

Quote:
 
I wasn't implying that Stefan's HP lead was consistant, I was implying that the stat itself was. As are all of his stats, compared to Zihark.


Equal chance of blessing as compared to screwing anyway. While his HP is stable, it's also limited in potential. Zihark could hit much higher and destroy his HP lead.

See? I can do it too!
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RETIRED
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Alastair


You can do... what? Drag on an argument? I thought we were already done...

Gah, I'm not even gonna bother. Suffice to say, I disagree with you.
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Challenges are not only welcomed, but encouraged. Seriously, battles ftw.

Alastair: Lvl. 12 Nomad

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iammax
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I've only played two runthroughs, but Ike and Soren were in both top 5's. The various others were Boyd, Oscar, Rolf, Tormod, Gatrie, Jill, Neph, and, I think, Kieran were all up there (not in the top 5, but close)
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