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the random hands known as religion
Topic Started: Mar 12 2006, 02:41 AM (1,339 Views)
Michiko
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"I like to be around people, not among them."
Well said.

Religion is as much a part of human nature as socializing is, and in many ways has played an integral part in its development as a whole. Throughout history, religion has served as a means for explanation, a tool for obediance, a rulebook, a source of inner peace, a means for community, certainly. It's not the useless 'fifth wheel' many make it out to be - it has a use.

There are basic needs, naturally - water, food, shelter, clothing - but once these primary needs are met, humans, social animals by nature, have secondary needs, namely community and knowledge. The question 'why' is probably the oldest of them all, and it is due to this drive for knowledge, the opposable thumb, and the cranial development that allowed homo erectus to evolve to homo sapiens.

The theories that early man developed, the imagination it took for them to see lightning and percieve taht as the work of a sentient entity, is probably one of the biggest points for mental development. It shows abstract thought, a means for providing explanation, and a way to form a new cohesiveness in the community. The medicine man/shaman/wise man was the most respecte of the tribe.

Over the centuries, new religions developed, came, and, for some, went. The gods of Cleopatra and Tutenkhamun are long gone, as are those of Plato and Homer. The most integral part of the polytheistic religions, I think, is that they all represent some part of humanity. The monotheistic ones merely seem to attribute everything that happens as 'God's/Allah's will' or the like. Still, the idea that 'god is everything and everywhere, inversely nothing' is another cognitive step, as hard as it is to believe for some. (Hiduism is monotheistic; all deities are forms of the Supreme Being)

Religion is, more than anything else, a cognitive necessity. It is man's greatest accomploshment, driving humanity to create far more tahn they would have on their own. In that respect, it is vital.

In modern society, it seems that people have grown past the stage of having a god, turning to science and fact. Their 'angels' are aliens, their holy chariots UFOs and ghosts. A split between religous people and aethiests is forming in America, and in parts of Europe, but as a whole religion still stands untouched.

My personal view, while not being religious, is to keep an open mind. Who knows what to believe? There is no right or wrong answer, really - just what suits you. In the end, they all seem to point to one thing - follow a basic guideline of the said society's rules, which would define you as a 'good person', and good things happen. In a way, it can be viewed in the same light as Aesop's Fables; not to be taken literally, but with good morals behind them.
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Dark General
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Nicely put Michiko, i for the most part agree with you. I still think it's up to everyone to make their own descions on what they believe in. Because to put it simply everyone believes in something wether it be themselfs or wether it be a god(s) or whatever you truely want to call them. Even though i'm religious i don't usually wear it on my sleeve exactly because i think you should seperate What you believe and what you think and how you act. While all may be in some way related, they all sometimes might not be completly the same. Some conflicting thoughts of some fashion or what you merly might think is right compared to society, the majority, what you believe in or whatever that other part may be. You can do what you want and believe in what you believe in and vioce your opinion, just sometimes people let one side spill over to something else.

In the end it all comes down to your own personal descion, and that's true for everything. Besides not everything is ment for everybody and you have to choose your own path and/or way of life.
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Brig. Gen. Atem *T.E.A*
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The Egyptian Alchemist
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It's true, that your religion is your choice. The only problem is, that a lot, A LOT of times, your desicion is influenced by those around you. Say you've been going to church for 16 years and now you're sick of repeating meaningless words. But your parent is a devout catholic and when the topic of other relgions comes up, you hear such things as "You can wear an Isis (Egyptian Goddess) pendant only because it's fake. No pentagrams, the devil is real, the other gods are all fake." and "I will not have you worshiping false gods in my house." When you've got a catholic conscience built into you, it's unremovable and the catholic streak in your family doesn't help either. People would be mad if you left the church and it's rather frustrating to look into what YOU actually believe when you're being told everyday, be it by family, peers, or teachers, that catholism is the one and ONLY way that you'll be saved.

That brings me to my next point;
Does anyone know what God or that higher force looks like?
Do we even know their name?
NO. WE DON'T.
So for all we know, god could take many forms, such as Shiva, Visnu, Ra, anything. So what right do people have to say "No, that's false and not god."
The different forms could also be just different aspects of god. You could be praying to the aspect of god's forgiveness and personifying it in one type of god. So why is that wrong if it's still god?

As far as I go? I'm registered Roman Catholic only because it's cheaper tuition.
I only go to church to hold the songbook and missel for my dad and to show him that he hasn't screwed up with me.
I think there's a higher force. They can take many forms and really...I'm looking for a religion that clicks inside me. It's a little hard with the constraints place, but then again that can be part of the test. My last point? In my mind, life is a test. Are we worthy enough to finally rest in the beyond? I don't know about everyone else, but my soul can't find any rest, not in people, not in work, not in a faith that I am now being forced into.


Note: XD This is most likely a ramble. Tell me when it doesn't make sense. XDD
*mummbling an old Military song*
Here we are, don't get us pissed....
We are State Alchemists....
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Crystalbloodalchemist
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Deep True Alchemist, I respect your opinion but I have another theory. All religions are right in their own right, no pun intended. I think its the message that counts.

Edit: And yes it is your choice and nobody should tell anyone different.
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OD-gill
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Religion? what is religion but a means of supperssing our need to belive?
Humans have an inbuilt need to belive in something greater than themselfs, so they turn to religion, does it matter if one religion is 'right' or 'wrong'? in the end they all serve the same purpose, and in the end when everyone is gone, there could be no predjudices or hatred, if infact there is an afterlife and a true god/s, and they are built upon the theory of love and peace, then they would accept you into their heaven so long as you have lead a just life.
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Xorital
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alot i wish their was no religion, (the folowing is my opinion and I apologise to any christians who read and are offended so dont go bashing me though you may respond if you wish) i dont like that religions fill peoples heads with lies telling them they will go to a better place when they die and such and fill them with false hope not only this but so many fights come from religion even wars occur, its very childish to wage war over that kind of thing and also, this is personal for me, is it so d*** hard for christians to leave atheist (like me) alone?! i know some atheists start it but their are passive ones who just dont want any of it, why do they bug us so much?! ok thats enough from me.
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Hinata
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Edited, it was too long & annoying. ~ Myth Yup! = Hinata
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Well if their heads are filled with lies, and hope, its better than not knowing what will become of you, right? You have to start somewhere, or you will be lost in life. Christians sound very annoying, but they are only trying to "help" you, therefore they are offended when you get angry. But religion is very stupid, and many people have died in cause of that, I agree. But no one has the right to call another persons religion fake or stupid, because whta do you have proof of? Why shouldnt we all believe in all religions, we all have stories to tell that are hard to believe, but emotions once again get in the way.*sigh*
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Xorital
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no one can prove their true and no one can prove their false so its kinda a stalemate....though my parents try to urge me that theirs proof all over *pshh*
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xGhostx
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Cheese 'Tis Yellow. ~Myth
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I really don't like it when people say they hate religon. Religon has built our world. I'm dead serious. Without Religon there would have been no strive for perfection, no morals.. no boundaries. There would not be a little voice in your head telling you what you've done is good or bad. Why? Because the standards of Good and Bad would not really exist. And, If so.. What will enforce it? What better way than a higher being, a judgment?

Because of Religon people moved forward, bettering their lives and also stayed hopefull through everything. Without Religon archetexture would be nowhere. Massive, elaborate and elegant works of Archetextural art were formed for worshiping divine dieties. Monestarys, Temples, The Pyramids. Look at the Greeks! Poetry, Epics, ..our WHOLE foundation in the intellectual world came from them. Even Drama.

Religon enforced law, and without law there would be no real natural order. Mass chaos would ensue, and nothing would get done. No one would work, or even care to better themselfs because there would be no reward, no afterlife.. And in turn no punishment. So, really, What would prevent them from theivery? Murder? Nothing. Especially if the outcome in the phsyical realm was rewarding.

During the Middle Ages and times where people had no use for education Monestarys held monks whom could speak and write in latin, and would translate and preserve many copies of Greek and Roman texts, which as I have said earlier was our WHOLE basis. If that didn't happen, if they didn't bother with it..We would not be where we are today.

And, as for the Wars and such "caused" by religon, on many terms I would have to dissagree. Religon does not cause war. People do. Nowhere, in hardly any religons does it say war and killing is good. Thats like blaming a parent because a child, whom was repeatedly told not to put his hand on the hot stove, did so anyway.

Instead, I do believe it is the other way around. People use Religon for war. People use Religon for advantages on other populations, they twist it and use it for their own desires.. Why? Because its a very powerful influance, its a very important thing in human life. Examples?

When lutheranism began to take hold in Europe, (mostly the Germanic states/provinces ) MANY princes Decided to switch their beliefes for the soul reason it gave them more power, more freedom and control. It benefited them. They would not have to listen to the pope, and several other things came along with it.

Also, if you can convince a large population that something is Evil, and wrong..you have people willing to fight for you and end it. If something is of threat to a power, say especially another group of religous peoples, making it appear your faith is against them is one huge way to get people on your side. Pagans and Protestants were victims of this. It wasn't Religons fault, it was the powerful people behind it. The pope would excommunicate Kings, and even whole cities/countries if people went against him and what he thought right. But, can you really blame christianity for something the Pope did out of the hunger for power and control? Not really..

Proof that Religon is used for what the current powers want is the Apocrypha. Those books were purpously left out to give a certain viewpoint or perspective of things. Why? One reason was Womens role. Some of those books gave women higher status and a more active part in the community. Did people of that day want that? No. Is it the fault of the religon that people left it out to prove their views/control things? No.

Also, its similar with the problems in Iraq. Its not Islam to blame..Islam has little to do with the radicalists who believe we are evil and need to be killed. You cannot blame the religon. It doesn't cause things, its used for peoples intentions. Its human fault.

Without Religon, if it never existed. I can honestly say I don't believe we would be ANYWHERE. We would not get anywhere. nothing would improve. No matter what people will find a way to hate and reason to kill. Even moreso without something, some higher power to judge them later for their actions in some way.
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iam_legion
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Quote:
 
I really don't like it when people say they hate religon. Religon has built our world. I'm dead serious. Without Religon there would have been no strive for perfection, no morals.. no boundaries. There would not be a little voice in your head telling you what you've done is good or bad. Why? Because the standards of Good and Bad would not really exist. And, If so.. What will enforce it? What better way than a higher being, a judgment?

We wouldn't have morals, yeah right. I have morals, I do nice things, and without your god wagging his finger at me.

Quote:
 
Religon enforced law, and without law there would be no real natural order. Mass chaos would ensue, and nothing would get done. No one would work, or even care to better themselfs because there would be no reward, no afterlife.. And in turn no punishment. So, really, What would prevent them from theivery? Murder? Nothing. Especially if the outcome in the phsyical realm was rewarding.

Really, if thats true I should be some dumb slob with no drive to do anything. Yet that is not the case. I like to work, learn, and as I said above am a very moral person, which is the case for many other people. All this without the reward of an afterlife.

Quote:
 
During the Middle Ages and times where people had no use for education Monestarys held monks whom could speak and write in latin, and would translate and preserve many copies of Greek and Roman texts, which as I have said earlier was our WHOLE basis. If that didn't happen, if they didn't bother with it..We would not be where we are today.

And also in the middle ages the church held back scientific progress. It was good that these old texts were saved but its not the whole basis. What changed society for us was the development of agriculture and the domestication of animals. It shifted us from hunter-gatherers to farmers, which helped us build our cvilization to what it is today. That is the base of our society, and scientific and technological progress is what keeps it growing.

Quote:
 
And, as for the Wars and such "caused" by religon, on many terms I would have to dissagree. Religon does not cause war. People do. Nowhere, in hardly any religons does it say war and killing is good. Thats like blaming a parent because a child, whom was repeatedly told not to put his hand on the hot stove, did so anyway.

Oh really.

Ezekiel 9:5-7 " As I listened, he said to the others, "Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary." So they began with the elders who were in front of the temple. Then he said to them, "Defile the temple and fill the courts with the slain. Go!" So they went out and began killing throughout the city."

Isaiah 13:15-18 "Whoever is captured will be thrust through; all who are caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes;
their houses will be looted and their wives ravished. See, I will stir up against them the Medes, who do not care for silver and have no delight in gold. Their bows will strike down the young men; they will have no mercy on infants
nor will they look with compassion on children."

Leviticus 20:13 "'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

Isaiah 14:21 "Prepare a place to slaughter his sons for the sins of their forefathers; they are not to rise to inherit the land and cover the earth with their cities.

Judges 20:48 "The men of Israel went back to Benjamin and put all the towns to the sword, including the animals and everything else they found. All the towns they came across they set on fire."

Jeremiah 48:10 "A curse on him who is lax in doing the LORD's work! A curse on him who keeps his sword from bloodshed!"
Mark 5:9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.
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iam_legion
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iam_legion
Dec 24 2006, 09:16 PM
Quote:
 
I really don't like it when people say they hate religon. Religon has built our world. I'm dead serious. Without Religon there would have been no strive for perfection, no morals.. no boundaries. There would not be a little voice in your head telling you what you've done is good or bad. Why? Because the standards of Good and Bad would not really exist. And, If so.. What will enforce it? What better way than a higher being, a judgment?

We wouldn't have morals, yeah right. I have morals, I do nice things, and without your god wagging his finger at me.

Quote:
 
Religon enforced law, and without law there would be no real natural order. Mass chaos would ensue, and nothing would get done. No one would work, or even care to better themselfs because there would be no reward, no afterlife.. And in turn no punishment. So, really, What would prevent them from theivery? Murder? Nothing. Especially if the outcome in the phsyical realm was rewarding.

Really, if thats true I should be some dumb slob with no drive to do anything. Yet that is not the case. I like to work, learn, and as I said above am a very moral person, which is the case for many other people. All this without the reward of an afterlife.

Quote:
 
During the Middle Ages and times where people had no use for education Monestarys held monks whom could speak and write in latin, and would translate and preserve many copies of Greek and Roman texts, which as I have said earlier was our WHOLE basis. If that didn't happen, if they didn't bother with it..We would not be where we are today.

And also in the middle ages the church held back scientific progress. It was good that these old texts were saved but its not the whole basis. What changed society for us was the development of agriculture and the domestication of animals. It shifted us from hunter-gatherers to farmers, which helped us build our cvilization to what it is today. That is the base of our society, and scientific and technological progress is what keeps it growing.

Quote:
 
And, as for the Wars and such "caused" by religon, on many terms I would have to dissagree. Religon does not cause war. People do. Nowhere, in hardly any religons does it say war and killing is good. Thats like blaming a parent because a child, whom was repeatedly told not to put his hand on the hot stove, did so anyway.

Oh really.

Ezekiel 9:5-7 " As I listened, he said to the others, "Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary." So they began with the elders who were in front of the temple. Then he said to them, "Defile the temple and fill the courts with the slain. Go!" So they went out and began killing throughout the city."

Isaiah 13:15-18 "Whoever is captured will be thrust through; all who are caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes;
their houses will be looted and their wives ravished. See, I will stir up against them the Medes, who do not care for silver and have no delight in gold. Their bows will strike down the young men; they will have no mercy on infants
nor will they look with compassion on children."

Leviticus 20:13 "'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

Isaiah 14:21 "Prepare a place to slaughter his sons for the sins of their forefathers; they are not to rise to inherit the land and cover the earth with their cities.

Judges 20:48 "The men of Israel went back to Benjamin and put all the towns to the sword, including the animals and everything else they found. All the towns they came across they set on fire."

Jeremiah 48:10 "A curse on him who is lax in doing the LORD's work! A curse on him who keeps his sword from bloodshed!"

Its also funny how you can say how much good religion has done, but when the bad is mentioned its just the peoples fault. "look how much religion influenced great architecture, art, literature, and all this other good stuff. Oh, the horrible things influenced by religion, thats all the peoples fault, not religion."
Mark 5:9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.
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Hinata
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Edited, it was too long & annoying. ~ Myth Yup! = Hinata
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Posted by GHost:



Religon enforced law, and without law there would be no real natural order. Mass chaos would ensue, and nothing would get done. No one would work, or even care to better themselfs because there would be no reward, no afterlife.. And in turn no punishment. So, really, What would prevent them from theivery? Murder? Nothing. Especially if the outcome in the phsyical realm was rewarding.


What has religion had much to do with preventing chaos? Chaos was from greed, selfishness ( as in slave holding) which led to the civil war, and that had nothing to do with religion for the most part, so if we didnt have it at all it wouldnt be much different. Its no use, it causes problems with the people, and causes the people to start the problems, while religion sits there innocently and no one blames it.
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Xorital
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i have morals as well and such, i have no god to folow and in fact im much better off, it held me back when i was a kid, yes i used to be christian i belive i mentioned it before, it always held me back from making new freinds, i was always so ignorant but when i relized how wrong i was i threw away my religion and burned my bible (i got in huge trouble for that one) and actualy started making something of myself instead of sitting around and praying for something to happen....though its a bad example of why it held me back isnt it..

Well...let me think....nevermind i dont quite remeber what i was going to say, but i think some people might understand what i mean.
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Dark General
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I get what you are saying [at least i think so] you are saying before you just used to pray and hope things would happen for you instead of going out and actually inspiring and doing something. I get what you are saying if that's the case. Though i don't get why some people don't try to actually something on just "a wing in a prayer" because if you can you should do something instead of just sitting there and waiting for something to happen. You know what i mean?
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Xorital
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^ yea you get the basic idea thanks, i wasnt able to word it correctly
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Amata
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xGhostx
Sep 27 2006, 02:09 PM
Tyler Jorgensson
Sep 27 2006, 07:00 AM
There is no god, or allah, ar shiva, or anything. If there is they ignore everyone on earth and are enjoying them selves up in heaven, sitting next to buddha and the Colonel, eating fried chicken

and you know this...how?

Before you state things as fact you need to think and make sure it actually IS fact. If not, then put "I think" or w.e "my opinion is" etc.

As for the whole arguement, "if there is a god why does he not care? why does he just let us suffer blah blah blah"

I think that Its a choice, its all a choice. you want to steal a cookie, and you steal it. That was your choice. Its not God or Buddahs fault you stole that cookie, its your fault. Why? Because you wanted, or desired the cookie.

You want to take over one country, or destroy another and you have the power to do so, thats your choice. But in ever situation there are consequences, again not God or Buddahs fault you decided to push the big red button. And just because you do doesn't mean God is going to always intervene (sp?) and miraculously save millions, no. Because it was a choice that you took and now you have to suffer the consequences.

And even though its not all those peoples fault that you pushed the button, its part of the consequence they all die. No one said life was fair, and even God said following him wouldn't be easy. (at least I think he said it, Jesus or w.e) If God took control of our actions it wouldnt be free will now would it? we have the knowledge of good and evil and its our CHOICE, because he wanted us to have a CHOICE, if you want to do all of this thats fine, but your consequence will either be heaven or hell.

As for the suffering of innocence, yeah its horrible but then again if you believe in heaven, well they are going to heaven why complain? If its so much better anyway.

You can't say they are ignoring us, but they aren't taking us by the hand either. Every major religon though, has a book or code of conduct that you should follow, if not, well thats once again your choice. But in every sitaution theres consequences.


No one said it was going to be easy, and no one said the truth was easy to swallow. We don't know anything about the afterlife except the fact you die here. after that its all what you believe it to be, its your choice to believe in niravana or heaven, or nothing at all. But don't go around saying theres nothing and squash everyone elses opinions, or you wouldn't be that much better than anyone else now would you?

You said pretty much what I wanted to say, well said.

It frustrates me when people say there's no God or that I shouldn't be religious because of all the "Holy Wars". As far as I can see it, if they actually followed the religion they seem to hold in such regard, they wouldn't even think of doing anything like that.

There may be many different religions and gods, but all of them have the same message of don't kill your fellow man.

God smiles upon no war.
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