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Knowledge Then Understanding; How does conversion fit in this process?
Topic Started: Oct 20 2006, 11:30 AM (854 Views)
nbogosian
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Hello everyone,

I have a few quick questions:

This verse confuses me:

"He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil." (1 Tim. 3:6)

Because it was my thinking that a "convert" is one who has Christ throned in their temple. This verse makes "convert" seem like a person who is an infant in Christ and still a beast.

1st - where in Scripture does it say that the disciples gained understanding as opposed to knowledge?

2nd - is this understanding marked by a conversion?

3rd - it seems to me that one can be given understanding by the grace of God and yet not be converted. Is this True?

4 - what is the Scriptural definition of conversion?

Perhaps this is much to ask, I'm not really sure.

Thanks!
~Nicholas
"My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." (2 Cor. 12:9)
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ertsky
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i'll have a look at the verse in esword

1Ti 3:6 Not a novice,3504 lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

ahh not a novice

word for novice means "newly planted" ie. not yet mature.

G3504
νεόφυτος
neophutos
Thayer Definition:
1) newly planted
1a) a new convert, neophyte (one who has recently become a Christian)

that clears it up somewhat i think

f
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ertsky
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Quote:
 
4 - what is the Scriptural definition of conversion?


i'm not sure if i even have a concept of a doctrine of "conversion"

i think in terms of repentance, of first principles, of going on to maturity, and particularly of this event

Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

once this event has come to pass in a believers experience that one is a mature son (uihos) not a young child (nepios)

however that one (mature son) also must not be highminded but work out their salvation with fear and trembling for it is God who works in them and even a "mature son" can make the most outrageous blunders (i speak from experience) so as always it's "Christ in us the HOPE of glory" and God's chastening grace that we need to show us where we are getting it wrong.

it is impossible to explain these matters fully without more thought and time but Mike has some excellent audio's

available at

http://www.aionios.com/
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ertsky
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as i thought on the matter i felt the Lord teaching me

instead of thinking in terms of "conversion" we would be better served thinking in terms of "process"

the concept of "conversion" carries with it all sorts of babylonian baggage however the doctrine of "process" has great spiritual witness

the process as israel went from captivity to the promised land
the process as Peter went from fisherman to apostle of Christ
the process as Paul went from life taker to life giver (Christ in Him)

as soon as someone says "i am converted" they are somewhat open to attack in the area of complacency

but if one is thinking "i am still a work in progress up to the day i die" "i am in a process Lord willing from glory to glory"

Pro 4:18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.

to me the perfect day will be (if so be that the Lord is merciful to me) the day i see Him face to face and know as i am known (!!! i can't believe i typed that without thinking about what it says)

Lord willing the process continues... stay tuned

f

at one point in my life i gave it all up as over that was when the process really started to get exciting.

and as always endurance endurance whatever happens no matter how strange and unfair it seems, trust Him, hope against hope, He can do it.

i'm trying so very hard to be encouraging :book:
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Alan
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nbogosian
Oct 20 2006, 11:30 AM
Hello everyone,

I have a few quick questions: 

This verse confuses me:

"He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil."  (1 Tim. 3:6)

Because it was my thinking that a "convert" is one who has Christ throned in their temple.  This verse makes "convert" seem like a person who is an infant in Christ and still a beast.

1st - where in Scripture does it say that the disciples gained understanding as opposed to knowledge?

2nd - is this understanding marked by a conversion?

3rd - it seems to me that one can be given understanding by the grace of God and yet not be converted.  Is this True?

4 - what is the Scriptural definition of conversion?

Perhaps this is much to ask, I'm not really sure.

Thanks!
~Nicholas


Nicholas,

I think Frank pretty much nailed it on the conversion (process) subject.

I will answer your other questions!


1st - where in Scripture does it say that the disciples gained understanding as opposed to knowledge?

Luke 24
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

By opening up their understanding to the scriptures, He was opening them up to Himself.
Christ is the Word!

2nd - is this understanding marked by a conversion?

Yes!
I believe this is our day of Pentecost, when God's spirit is truly in us.
But, I would agree with Frank that it is more of a lifelong process. When we are given eyes to see, we start to die to the flesh daily. This is the point that I believe we are called and chosen. But, it is ultimately up to God and His will to know if we are predestined to be called, chosen and faithful until the end!

Mark 13
13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Rev 17
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

3rd - it seems to me that one can be given understanding by the grace of God and yet not be converted. Is this True?

The scriptures tell us that if we abide in the doctrine of Christ, then we have both the Father and the Son, which is God's spirit in us.

2 John
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

But, we still don't know if we will taken from being the chosen to being the chosen and faithful. Only God knows this. This is why Paul tells us that....

Phil 2
12 ¶ Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Even though God knows the end from the beginning and who is predestined and who is not, we work out own salvation in fear and trembling, judging ourselves hoping that we will be the faithful and reign with Christ in the next age.

4 - what is the Scriptural definition of conversion?

This would be my definition from scripture....

1 Cor 2
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

It would be God's spirit in us, having the mind of Christ.

This however is not something that happens overnight, but a process throughout our lifetime of dying daily to the flesh and being chastened by God, into mature sons.

Alan


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discipleindeed
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Quote:
 
4 - what is the Scriptural definition of conversion?




Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


These scriptures are what represent conversion to me. The renewing of the mind it is a process. The enduring of this process is our salvation.


Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


Quote:
 
1st - where in Scripture does it say that the disciples gained understanding as opposed to knowledge?


Quote:
 
2nd - is this understanding marked by a conversion?



Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the Scriptures,

As a disciples of Christ I have knowledge of the scriptures but only after Christ opens the understanding of the scriptures I cannot truly grasp the spiritual meaning of the scriptures. Once understanding begins conversion starts and this is a continual process for the rest of my life.

3rd - it seems to me that one can be given understanding by the grace of God and yet not be converted. Is this True?

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Psa 51:13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Isa 60:5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.

These are great questions.

There is alot to learn here.


Love in Christ
Aaron

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ertsky
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Alan wrote:
Quote:
 


Quote:
 
2nd - is this understanding marked by a conversion?


Yes!
I believe this is our day of Pentecost, when God's spirit is truly in us.
But, I would agree with Frank that it is more of a lifelong process. When we are given eyes to see, we start to die to the flesh daily. This is the point that I believe we are called and chosen. But, it is ultimately up to God and His will to know if we are predestined to be called, chosen and faithful until the end!

Mark 13
13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Rev 17
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.


same thinking here Alan, the pentecost experience is the closest i can come to relating to a "conversion." although everytime the beast ascends out of the abyss i feel like i need to be converted again :lol:

but my experience was just like Peter's, leaving first love, failing utterly and then, pentecost, that was when the work of God in my life really began in a whole new dimension. as the scriptures begin to open and power from on high that just wasn't there before, the spirit of the Lord now starts to do a quick work in the believer.

i had this experience a year or two ago (can't quite remember the exact time so much has happened since then i can't keep up) and realised that i was now a "mature son" so to speak, was going on to completion, but still so very immature if you get what i mean.

sure i was now a uihos not a nepios but still there was and is and will be so much changing to be done. (lifelong process)

i had endured long enough to make it from called to chosen now let's see if God will enable me to make it from chosen to faithful (Christ in me) (lifelong process)

i guess that's right, once pentecost occurs then the training begins at a whole new level that was impossible before, in the same way you can't train a 5 year old to manage a business because it would be the wrong time (not that some preparation wouldn't occur) but that full on training would be better left till they were more like 14 or 17 or something. what i mean is the appropriate training at the appropriate time.

i guess i need to map out the journey of israel and figure out where the heck i am!! :lol: :lol:

f
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SteveO
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Hello all,


I'm impressed with the level of understanding of the people on this thread. Great Job!
Deu 6:4 Hear, Israel! Yahweh is our Elohim; Yahweh the only One.
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nbogosian
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Wow! Thanks for all your replies. It has been great reading your responses and very enLIGHTening!
~Nicholas
"My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." (2 Cor. 12:9)
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nbogosian
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Here are some more follow-up verses that speak to understanding and conversion:

"And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not."
(John 5:38)

"But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him."
(1 John 2:5)

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
(1 John 3:9)

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."
(Revelation 3:20)

"...that he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God."
(Ephesians 3:16-19)

And the process completed:

"...He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:..."
(Ephesians 4:10-13)

I can think of a few teachers that have built me up!

all of your comments regarding "process" have truly edified me!


Blessings to you,
Nicholas
"My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." (2 Cor. 12:9)
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Timothy Vaughan
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Greetings forum,

This annointing of deacon is made by God (in us) himself. 1 jn 2:27

Not by hands of flesh.heb 6:2 (letter of the law) This is of no profit. But is part of the process for our profit.heb 12:10/acts 7:44-50 For these things MUST be.

We must look to the right tree.And eat its fruit. NOT to MEN

A temple made without (human hands).acts 7:48/ But by God's invisible hands (law of the spirit of life in christ)acts 8:50/1 chron 29:10-18

Yet david's intentions where of the LORD. For it was the LORD's Will (hand)for them to build a temple made with Hands.To SHOW us it MUST be (God's will) that we be MADE in & by his HANDS.

No (man of sin) will be Able to pluck us out of his hand.

Timothy /flaming sword

1 tim 3:13/1 tim 5:21-25

p.s You have spoken well.(it is a process of tree of the knowledge good & Evil) Then the growth (process) of the branch/tree out of the stump of jesse Isa 11;1--16/THE TREE OF LIFE the wholesome TOUNGE Is a TREE of LIFE/ IN CHRIST.

This comes by much suffering from our own (lawless) tounge/Isa 11:15/james 3 And not his.

His is FAITHFUL & TRUE OUT of his mouth.It will CUT DOWN all other TREES at the root with the AX/SwordLuke 3:9/ mt 4:10 and PUT them in the FIRE (word of God)That comes OUT of his/christ's MOUTH.REV 11:5/Rev 19:15

THE GREAT TREE of Egypt (man of sin)shall be cut DOWN FOREVER.Ez 31:1-18
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gmik
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SteveO
Oct 21 2006, 10:52 AM
Hello all,


I'm impressed with the level of understanding of the people on this thread. Great Job!

Quote:
 


I agree. These posts need study and plenty of notetaking!

:smart: gena
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sandra
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Yes indeed!! plenty of scripture here to keep me busy.

Thank you all.

sandra :book:
And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said,
The kingdom of God cometh not with observation; Neither shall they say, Lo here: or, lo there: for behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Lk17:20-21
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