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Holiday Traditions; The Annual Dilemma
Topic Started: Nov 23 2006, 02:59 PM (2,774 Views)
Timothy Vaughan
Member
[ *  * ]
Dear Steve,



I loved your (his) article on the traditions. I have not keep Chrismas /Easter/holloween/valintines day/new years day= (The 2 headed god janus/1 that looks forward /1 that looks behind)
or many of the pagan (rituals) associated with them. For 26 years. i did keep them until i was
18 or 19 years of age. Then repented (changed) after i understood what they where . My wife has never kept them that I am aware of.


I do not keep (birthdays) in the same way either.I do reconise that I'm a year older & closer to leaving this body.

If you need help with advice of how to handle relatives. Without overly offending them.( avoiding self rightousness)God has called us to peace.

If your interested in the true biblical calander (not the present day jews calander/it is riddled with errors) i have studied this a great deal .And may be able to assist you.

As you and others know I'm a very poor writer.
so this will be a handicap for me to explain.

So continue to let your LIGHT/Christ/candle to shine/BURN in a DARK place.I see your light /candle(christ in you) very clearly. lev 24:1-4

So don't fret or be discouraged because of others.But continue in the things you have learned from him from a child (rev 12:5/ 2 ti 3:12-17).
So SHALL grow up to be a man in him.(man child)ep 4:13

So continue In doing so you shall SAVE Yourself and those that hear you in faith.1 ti 4:16

May the God of peace be with us both. Be thankful.Sing a NEW song.For a Thank offering of his PEACE.Ps100
at his table. give the SACRIFICE of praise.heb 13:15 Sing it with GRACE in your HEART.col 3:10-17

farewell

Timothy
1 Ti 4:12-16
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Steven Crook

Admin
Sorry have been very busy for a few days now.

Thanks for the encouragement Timothy. I indeed count it all joy to know Christ is revealing to me what He would have me do, and to forsake ungodliness in all that I do. I truly know that I must do all to the glory of God, and that is all I pray the Father lets me do continuously.

As for the previous post about Mike's article, please do not think I was pointing you or anyone else to that article directly. I was simply adding it to the conversation because, being that all is after the council of His own will, it was good timing for the topic of this thread. I was just trying to add another edifying letter to the topic.

In Christ's Name,

Steve Crook
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sandra
Member
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Hi brothers and sisters In Christ Jesus,

i too, want to thank you SteveC. for your letter of love "Holiday Traditions" and to let you know it was an answer to prayer.!!!

http://www.iswasandwillbe.com/Holiday_Traditions.php


This is my first year i have not celebrated -valentines day, easter, holloween, and soon to be christmas!!

This is where my prayer was answered -when i asked Jesus to give me courage and strength again, especially on this last one. And lo and behold your letter.

I too have told my family at the beginning of the year that I cannot no longer celebrate them -knowing now, the truth behind them also.

This was not easy for me(flesh) to do- But, for me now, It Is His Will.
Do i think your crazy? No. Does the whole world, including close ones around me think i am? Yes.!! it is good to know i am not alone :lol:
So be it.!!!

Thank you for your encouragement, and also to you Timothy for your post.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the father; but by me.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matt 11:29-30 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart; and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Pro 3:5-7 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own undestanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes; fear the Lord, and depart from evil.

Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

In His Love,
sandra
And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said,
The kingdom of God cometh not with observation; Neither shall they say, Lo here: or, lo there: for behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Lk17:20-21
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IWWBAdmin

Admin
Hi all,

Sandra mentioned holiday traditions and it does seem to be that time of the year. I remember when I first learned the truth I wanted to let family and friends know that it was wrong to celebrate these pagan events.

I can see now that it is clearly wrong to let them know this unless they were to ask. Mike wrote a paper "You Shall Not Seethe A Kid In His Mother's Milk" that has helped me a great deal! I would never want to hurt their feelings or make them stumble. :)

God Bless,
Dustin
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Nancy
Unregistered

Hello, everyone!

On another thread there has arisen a discussion of this article posted by Steve Crook. I was thinking that it would be a good thing to start a new topic under "Article Discussion" for the sake of clarity and organization.

Timothy Vaughan, Steve Crook, Sandra and Dustin have made some cogent comments on the "Leviticus 1:3" topic under "General Discussion." I was hoping that perhaps one of the system admins might be able to move them here.

Dustin referenced Mike's article, "You Shall Not Seethe a Kid in His Mother's Milk."

http://iswasandwillbe.com/2006012312.php

Mike's article and Dustin's comments reflect my own increasing understanding of what should be our response to these pagan observances. Also, Mike wrote another article a couple of years ago entitled, "Should Christians Observe Christmas?" ( http://iswasandwillbe.com/2005041805.php )

Here is a quote from that article:

However we are told that the strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak. Christmas is a pagan holiday that is observed by most of our friends and families in this country. While I personally, cannot in faith, partake of this pagan ritual I never expect others to be what or where I am. I have very good brothers in Christ who still observe Christmas. This is between them and God. God is the only one who can convict us of our sins. Until He does so, the truth of His new covenant is "What soever is not of faith is sin." Anyone who can observe Christmas in good faith would be sinning if he did not observe it. Which is like saying that 'He that eats meat believing that he should not would be sinning,' even though the scriptures teach that God has given us "meats to be received with thanksgiving." If any brother is not aware of these verses he would be sinning to go against his conscience.

I know that I am guilty of "seething a kid in his mother's milk." We (my husband and children and I) used to be a part of a church that prided itself on seeing witchcraft and paganism in every aspect of our daily lives. Once I discovered the pagan origins of the holidays, I was only too eager to "share" my understanding with my family members. I have caused much heartache because of this. Have any of my family come 'round to seeing the truth of the holidays? No, not a one.

It is well nigh impossible to extricate oneself completely from the holidays, ESPECIALLY Christmas. Everywhere we go, there are decorations. Stores have extended hours and offer special pricing to induce purchasing. Christian friends distribute candy canes with attached cards showing how the shape of the candy cane is a "J" for "Jesus." Many of us are employed in retail trades; do we "shun" the extra money that comes in at this time of year? For others of us in the corporate world, most offices are closed between Christmas and New Year's Day. Do we offer to work during those times? Maybe yes and maybe no. We can't control what the world is doing.

This year we are practicing a modified approach. Our abstention from the holidays has placed an undue burden on my poor brother and his family. So this year, we will spend the day with my mom and give my brother a needed break. I will probably bring my mom a gift or two and we'll have a special dinner.

To friends and acquaintances, such as our children's piano teacher, we will give small gifts. Our not doing so over the past 4 years has caused us to appear stingy and unloving, despite the fact that I went out of my way to give "appreciation" gifts throughout the year.

Within our own family, we will NOT return to trees and lights and decorations, because they are a big distraction from where our focus should be: dying daily to the flesh and growing stronger in Jesus. But we won't hide from those who do those things, and we won't be afraid to invite them to our "undecorated" home. If they want to ask us why we don't "celebrate," we'll explain it as simply as we can, and pray that we don't offend.

Speaking of offending, I do pray that I haven't done so to anyone here on this board. I am simply sharing my own experiences and ever struggling to come to terms to what should be our response to the world. In Matt. 22:37 - 40 Jesus speaks of the two commandments on which hang all of the law and all of the prophets. As hard as it is for me, a "man" (woman) of flesh who seeks to have all the hay and stubble burned out of her life, I hope that I may decrease that He may increase; I would hope that God's Holy spirit would guide my thoughts, words, and deeds.

--Nancy
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Timothy Vaughan
Member
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Dear Forum,

I do agree with mikes acticles on the subject.james 4:10-12

We must be careful how we handle the word of GOD.And the EXAMPLE/LIGHT we(christ in us) set for others.Mt 5:14-19/1 peter 4:1-19/1 peter 1:14-16/ex19:6/due 26:19/1 cor 4:1-5

With this Also in mind:1 cor 8:1-13/roms 14: 1-23

With this in mind.There are 3 simple bible Definitions of SIN:(that i have found)

1. 1 jn 3:4 /Whosoever committeth SIN transgresseth the law:(law of christ/ not moses law/roms 8:2/freed from that/2 cor 3:6) For SIN is the transgression of the law (of christ)

2. ROMANS 14:23/ last part =for Whatsoever is NOT of faith is SIN.

3. James 4:17/Therefore to HIM that (knoweth) to do good ,and doeth it not , to HIM it IS SIN.

Now many people DON'T know that the (holidays are pagan){Note; some one might not know
something but it still hurts them} Some know it & do it anyway/i think you know what i mean .
this is GOD'S doing.resist it NOT.Yet within the body of CHRIST. We must be very CAREFUL. in this regard? 1 tim 5:20

It is not my responsibility to judge ANOTHER man's servant.romans 14:1-7?
But in the same breath Are we not to judge angels(messengers/good or bad messages?)1 cor 6:1-7?

All I know is this ? James 4:11-12/

So in conclusion it all DEPENDS ON THE SPIRIT IN QUESTION? 1 jn 4:1 What is the motive?

God created this motive/eitier by his SPIRIT of WISDOM OR a STRONG DELUSION. so in the end it is HIS BUSINESS.But HIS BUSINESS IS MY BUSINESS Luke 2:49/ 1jn 4:17
But as with all things(GOD) this is MOST important!

Know this (A LITTLE LEAVEN (sin) HEB 3:13 LEAVENS the WHOLE LUMP/ BODY) what a man sows he reaps/God is NOT MOCKED)

HEBREWS 12:14 Follow PEACE with ALL men,and HOLINESS, without which no man SHALL (NEAR FUTURE) see the Lord.

God has saw it fit to teach me his paths (concerning HOLY DAYS) in the SPIRIT not in the FLESH
(law of moses/lev 23/num 28/Isa 8;13-20).Yet he still wants me to SPEAK ACCORDING TO HIS LAW & TESTIMONY OR THIER IS NO LIGHT/CHRIST IN ME.

I hope in some way this may help ? I'm open to critism? prov 21:11/ james 3:12-18

Please respond,

HIS PEACE unto all,

TIMOTHY
2 tim 2:24-26
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IWWBAdmin

Admin
Great post Nancy! Your take on this subject did not offend me one bit.

Quote:
 
Our abstention from the holidays has placed an undue burden on my poor brother and his family.


Last year I was probably a little harsh on my family. I know these holidays are silly and worshiping a pagan god is foolish or perhaps somewhat superstitious like the mark of the beast even. We all know it’s what’s inside that counts. This year I handled my mother a little differently. She asked me what I wanted and I told her that whatever she would like to get me is fine. I even asked her what she wanted and sent it to her. I do not feel guilty or that I have committed sin by doing this, in fact I would have felt worse by hurting her feelings and damaging our relationship. This year I did try to walk in love (Rom 14:15). Now don’t get me wrong there are holidays like Halloween which I cannot have a part of because it just seems evil, I think most blind people can even detect that and most of orthodox christianity has excluded it.

It seems that when I walk in love and show my family I care they are more receptive to what I believe.

Dustin



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Steven Crook

Admin
Well, you have all read the letter, so I will not go into detail over it.

I knew, before I wrote the letter, that simply not going to Christmas parties, etc., would be a huge deal to all my family and friends. So, I wrote that letter as a foundation to open up conversation about why I would not be coming.

There were many mixed responses, but generally they all were offended, got very angry and thought as though I was trying to "force" this on them. Well, the simple truth is that this is for me and me alone.

Mike's emails that have been quoted are perfectly in accordance with what was written in my letter. They actually add to one another in my opinion. Actually, Mike was the very first person who I asked to read the drafts of that letter and let me know his scriptural opinion on it. It was later that Mike asked me if I felt comfortable placing it on the website. I had no thoughts about it ever making it there; none-the-less, the Lord had different plans.

It’s funny that I heard from almost every response that family sent to me, that this letter wasn’t going to change their mind or their thoughts on the subject. In fact, that was never the reason for the letter in the first place. It was simply to let them know WHY I was not going to participate in the traditions of men.

Did I know it would offend them? Yes, I thought it could, but I didn’t want that to happen. Should I be concerned that others will be offended because I stand true to what the doctrine of Christ reveals TO ME, by the faith OF Christ given to me, that I should not give one inch on participating in these traditions? No, I shouldn’t be concerned with that. You shall be hated of all men will happen because I abide in the doctrine of Christ, not because I go along with pleasing everyone. That doesn’t mean I shouldn’t have a good report within and without. It shouldn’t be able to be said of me that I run around on my wife, do drugs, fist fight with guys down the road, etc., but if I am abiding in and continuing in the doctrine of Christ, than that is not an issue.

Matthew 10:22 - And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

“For His name’s sake…..” “ye shall be hated….”

I surely won’t be “hated” if I am note proclaiming His name. Proclaiming His name is LIVING His name as a light to the world. Christ in me, does it all.

Part of “His name” is saying Lord, and not that which “the many” say as “Lord, Lord…” Many will be called to do so, but few will be chosen and faithful to abide in His doctrine. Is this unloving or mean to say?

After sending this letter out, I had several exchanges back and forth between me and my family. It was all done through email because no one could speak to me face to face. One good thing out of that was that all my family could see all that was being said by everyone. In every exchange, I made sure that everyone understood that I completely believe in the sovereignty of God. With that mind, I know that there is no possible way to convince anyone of something that the Lord hasn’t dragged them to repent of. So, would I try to convince them to “see it my way?” Nope.

Timothy hit the nail on the head with his post, “Posted on Nov 28 2006, 06:28 PM”

If I do something I know to be wrong, as it has been revealed to me, it is then SIN. If someone else does something that they don’t believe is wrong, but do it to give a front or show some “face” then it is SIN to them, because they do it NOT OF FAITH. Whose faith is it? It is Christ’s faith, not ours.

Does that mean I shouldn’t testify to the Truth because it “might” offend someone? God forbid. Korah was offended that Moses was the one God was using to lead Israel, and he was simply offended by Moses BEING Moses. Isn’t the entire congregation Holy? Aaron and Miriam spoke against Moses because he was not the ONLY one God spoke by. However, the Lord said this concerning Moses:

Numbers 12:7 - My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.

Moses was FAITHFUL in all the house. So, he was given special recognition above others that God ALSO spoke through. He was spoken to “mouth to mouth”.

We must not only be called to Lord. We must not only be chosen to the Lord. We must be FAITHFUL to the Lord. The word “faithful” is enough in itself. “Full of faith” and full of the faith of Christ….

Can anyone honestly say that Christ would buy a gift for others if he were walking on this earth now so as not to offend another who practices that tradition? Is gift giving bad, wrong, or not fun? NO. It is fun to give gifts, and it is good. God loves a cheerful giver, but do we “give” simply to go along with a tradition of men? I can not simply because “everyone else” does. However, that is for me, and not for everyone. Christ IS walking this earth, in OUR flesh, Lord willing, and indeed we are ambassadors for Christ. THAT light can not be hid!

1 John 4:17 - Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

“As he is, ….IN THIS WORLD….so are we”

When we don’t want to offend someone, scriptural speaking, we do not want to do something to that person that would entice/provoke them to sin. Take this little story as an example, as there are many more:

Matthew 15:11 - Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
Matthew 15:12 - Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
Matthew 15:13 - But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
Matthew 15:14 - Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Simply put, Christ did not deny they were indeed offended, but then He himself called them BLIND. They thought they could SEE that this saying of Christ about what defiles a man was wrong! It offended them; none-the-less, it was truth.

Another example:

Matthew 5:30 - And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

This is the same greek word G4624. If something causes you to SIN stop doing it. Pluck it off or out of your life!

Another example:
Peter has just answered for Christ when He said, “Yes”. His master pays tribute. Christ then says this:

Matthew 17:27 - Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them (entice/provoke them to sin because Peter had already said yes), go thou to the sea, and cast a hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.

Here is what I truly believe we are doing when we show Love, the love of God. We keep His commandments.

1 John 3:17 - But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? (how dwelleth the commandments of God in him – Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind and Love thy neighbor as thyself.

We must simply show others love by keeping the commandments of God.

I must conclude that we can definitely personally keep ourselves from the traditions of men and of the world. Though the traditions will be going on all around us, we are in the world but not OF THE WORLD. Though, I have a winter break and my work is out, I still do no personally practice the holiday, though I have time off to do so if I wanted to. Though businesses are open and have special pricing, I will not simply go “Christmas shopping”, etc. It is within that we are defiled, from the heart and mind, NOT from the outside, as I think we all agree. As it has been said, lets make sure it is from within that we are not defiling the Word of God, because the world – the outside CAN NOT defile us simply because they are keeping the tradition of Christmas, but we can and do defile ourselves when we ourselves participate, if that is what the Lord has shown you by faith to be wrong.

I was told by certain family members that coming to the family Christmas parties and participating was a something God knew about and knew where my heart is with it. “I can participate in the parts I like, and go into another room when parts I don’t like come along that I don’t like.” Is it possible to spiritually separate myself from the traditions of the holidays, but still go and participate in them?

It is not possible, because by the very act of participating, my spirit is involved. Whatever the reasons I use to justify my flesh and it’s needs, those reasons do not excuse the fact that I AM participating if I give gifts, go to parties, accept and send greeting cards, etc., simply because it is that time of year, and I don’t want anyone to see my as selfish, cheap, unloving, a Christ hater, etc., etc., etc. I have been called all these things already. My wife was told to divorce me as quickly as possible. I was called many names because I choose to stand on a solid Rock, and not on a tradition of men and all the activities associated with it. We have to be seperated from our brothers, because the chosen are indeed seperated as much as the called are seperated from the uncalled. Everyone we meet is Christ. We are all brothers. So, we must be seperated from doing our Father wrong, and His flock wrong, as our brothers do.

Again, this is just what I have come to see. There is no way to separate myself from it unless I AM separate from it, and that is all of the Lord. It isn’t for everyone. If I know it is wrong to do so, but still do it, I am worthy of MANY STRIPES.

Is it wrong to tell others why I won’t participate? No, it is not. Would it be wrong for me to tell them why THEY shouldn’t participate? Yes. Unless of course, they ASKED me my opinion on it, then I would tell them.

I, too, hope no one is offended/enticed/provoked by this post. It simply is a post to clarify what the reasoning is to give my family such a letter. It is not to change their mind, but to show them my mind is changed – from within.

We all have our own understanding of the matter. I pray continually that I will be gven mroe and more of the mind of Christ, and that not only will I be given that mind but once there - abide in that mind. We are all blessed beyond our imaginations by the things the Lord shows us, but we must still endure to the end with the things we are shown. He that is given much is expected much.

Steve Crook

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sandra
Member
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sandra
Nov 26 2006, 10:50 PM
Hi brothers and sisters In Christ Jesus,

i too, want to thank you SteveC. for your letter of love "Holiday Traditions" and to let you know it was an answer to prayer.!!!

http://www.iswasandwillbe.com/Holiday_Traditions.php


This is my first year i have not celebrated -valentines day, easter, holloween, and soon to be christmas!!

This is where my prayer was answered -when i asked Jesus to give me courage and strength again, especially on this last one. And lo and behold your letter.

I too have told my family at the beginning of the year that I cannot no longer celebrate them -knowing now, the truth behind them also.

This was not easy for me(flesh) to do- But, for me now, It Is His Will.
Do i think your crazy? No. Does the whole world, including close ones around me think i am? Yes.!! it is good to know i am not alone :lol:
So be it.!!!

Thank you for your encouragement, and also to you Timothy for your post.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the father; but by me.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matt 11:29-30 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart; and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Pro 3:5-7 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own undestanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes; fear the Lord, and depart from evil.

Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

In His Love,
sandra

Quote:
 


hope All WILL 'SEE' and read my post again.!!! Althougth I thanked a brother openly for his encouragement,and hopefully encouraged him in some small way, and revealed -mentioned the article on Mike's (a teacher of mine and of God) site. OUR teaching is ALL through The Holy Spirit. JESUS,
i hope none would think i condone or set an example to tell "Our Own" including our personal families that what they do is "wrong". This is not my place but God's only.
As Dustin pointed out how clearly WRONG this is, and I AGREE ,and WE "SEE" by HIS example. how clearly we can truly "Hurt someone's heart" especially "Our OWN"(Mat 12:46-50)

if you can "SEE" what i said -which i had to say to my personal family, is CLEARLY stated. No more No less.( i have to be careful i do not add or take away from his words, Rev 22:16-20). If someone wanted to know more about what i said in my original post, all they had to do was "ASK" as Dustin's post points this out.
Also since my name is in this same paragragh of his post. -i would not want others to conclude this together, and assert i told my family it was, WRONG FOR THEM -i want to make this very clear. If anyone wants to know how "NOT EASY" for me(flesh)means-in my post, and not just on this subject, i will "share" with you, the tears i have cried(God knoweth) as it is this day.!!

Just to let "All" know, my family and children are not even on the "MILK" of God's Word, let alone called into a church to be called out again. This again is not my place, but God's - "for them" and for "the body OF CHRIST."
However, I have walked in the spirit of God for only a year NOW. Before that, -i did not even read my bible, because i did not know how. i myself was in the church for only 3 1/2 years. This past year God had mercy on me and is making ALLl Things NEW.
(Isa 48:6, Rev 21:5, 2Co 5:17)

Including this subject of HIS WORD as "I NOW SEE" though still blind, God has put this on other hearts also. (Heb 8:10,Heb 10:16,Jer 32:40,Jer 31:33) -- i now yet find that some here have walked this path already,?? And for some time,?? ?Knowing this is the right path??. I thank God he searches our hearts. (1Co 2-10-12)

i guess one can say "I am" yet in the "MILK" of this subject of HIS WORD. as you may "SEE"? by my post.

I do however, Thank God for Nancy and Dustin for bringing my attention to this article "You Shall Not Seethe A Kid in His Mother's Milk". For before, i did not understand these words, but by HIS GRACE, GOD NOW, is giving me "understanding" of what this "TRULEY MEANS."!!!

It is All OF GOD, for OUR good, I AGREE that those that are IN CHRIST be not offended(although we all were,are,willbe at some time) in "HIS WORD" because ALL of HIM "IS" PURE, HOLY AND TRUE - . And in the same breath, God says this, to whoever offends one of "HIS LITTLE ONES",(Mat 18:1-11)it were better for him that a milstone were hanged about his neck.!! do i FEAR GOD?? This is the beginning of HIS WISDOM.(psa 111:10).

I will "share" what i learned was WRONG, or was it? that when Jesus was starting to show me HIS TRUTHS. i did go to tell HIS TRUTHS HE WAS SHOWING ME, to the "JEWS WHO SAID THEY BELIEVED ON HIM,"But wanted to kill him, who in reality have "NO USE" for HIS WORDS/DOCTRINE, as Some may know or may be experiencing now?, how this turns out(And yet this is the WAY God has "US" all to come)?? We know this is ALL OF GOD by his "strong delusion" he sent to the whole world and who are not given to know the mysteries of the Kingdom.(2TH 2:11,Mat13:11,Luk 8;10 )AND YET, IS THIS NOT, BY HIS WISDOM?(psa 136:5,Jer 10:12,Jer 51:15)

i do hope that we learn, if a brother or sister IN CHRIST needs or is Asking for prayer, courage, strenghth no matter where or what level God has them -i pray we donot give them a stone or a serpent.(Mat 7:9-11)But good gifts.!!!
Especially if we have been down that path before and KNOW this is the WAY.!! We truly, do not want to hurt their feelings,??!! stumble??!! or seethe them in their Milk.??!!!!

as you All notice i put the end of the article of Mike's, below, that Nancy quoted in her post . It helps me to remember, the Sum of God's Word .( psa 119:160).IS Truth.

Read God's word and ask Him for direction and wisdom and He will give you guidance in this matter. I would only add that "bear the infirmities of the weak," is not to be understood as 'participate in the infirmities of the weak.' We must always remain faithful to the knowledge God has given us.
Mike

Jesus says walk "while you still have" the light because we are children of the light.(Jon 12:35, Jon 12:36, 1Th 5:5, Eph 5:8)
I have to be careful I do what he say's no matter how hard for my flesh. because i know he can brake me off the same way he grafted me in(Rom 11:13-25)and reminds me to not be highminded and wise in conceits, BUT FEAR?!!

psa.127 Except the Lord build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the Lord keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain. It is vain for you to rise up early, to sit up late, to eat the bread of sorrows: for so he giveth his beloved sleep. Lo, children are an heritage of the Lord: and the fruit of the womb is his reward. As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth. Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.

In His Love,
sandra
And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said,
The kingdom of God cometh not with observation; Neither shall they say, Lo here: or, lo there: for behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Lk17:20-21
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sandra
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Steve Crook
Dec 1 2006, 03:56 PM
Well, you have all read the letter, so I will not go into detail over it.

I knew, before I wrote the letter, that simply not going to Christmas parties, etc., would be a huge deal to all my family and friends. So, I wrote that letter as a foundation to open up conversation about why I would not be coming.

There were many mixed responses, but generally they all were offended, got very angry and thought as though I was trying to "force" this on them. Well, the simple truth is that this is for me and me alone.

Mike's emails that have been quoted are perfectly in accordance with what was written in my letter. They actually add to one another in my opinion. Actually, Mike was the very first person who I asked to read the drafts of that letter and let me know his scriptural opinion on it. It was later that Mike asked me if I felt comfortable placing it on the website. I had no thoughts about it ever making it there; none-the-less, the Lord had different plans.

It’s funny that I heard from almost every response that family sent to me, that this letter wasn’t going to change their mind or their thoughts on the subject. In fact, that was never the reason for the letter in the first place. It was simply to let them know WHY I was not going to participate in the traditions of men.

Did I know it would offend them? Yes, I thought it could, but I didn’t want that to happen. Should I be concerned that others will be offended because I stand true to what the doctrine of Christ reveals TO ME, by the faith OF Christ given to me, that I should not give one inch on participating in these traditions? No, I shouldn’t be concerned with that. You shall be hated of all men will happen because I abide in the doctrine of Christ, not because I go along with pleasing everyone. That doesn’t mean I shouldn’t have a good report within and without. It shouldn’t be able to be said of me that I run around on my wife, do drugs, fist fight with guys down the road, etc., but if I am abiding in and continuing in the doctrine of Christ, than that is not an issue.

Matthew 10:22 - And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

“For His name’s sake…..” “ye shall be hated….”

I surely won’t be “hated” if I am note proclaiming His name. Proclaiming His name is LIVING His name as a light to the world. Christ in me, does it all.

Part of “His name” is saying Lord, and not that which “the many” say as “Lord, Lord…” Many will be called to do so, but few will be chosen and faithful to abide in His doctrine. Is this unloving or mean to say?

After sending this letter out, I had several exchanges back and forth between me and my family. It was all done through email because no one could speak to me face to face. One good thing out of that was that all my family could see all that was being said by everyone. In every exchange, I made sure that everyone understood that I completely believe in the sovereignty of God. With that mind, I know that there is no possible way to convince anyone of something that the Lord hasn’t dragged them to repent of. So, would I try to convince them to “see it my way?” Nope.

Timothy hit the nail on the head with his post, “Posted on Nov 28 2006, 06:28 PM”

If I do something I know to be wrong, as it has been revealed to me, it is then SIN. If someone else does something that they don’t believe is wrong, but do it to give a front or show some “face” then it is SIN to them, because they do it NOT OF FAITH. Whose faith is it? It is Christ’s faith, not ours.

Does that mean I shouldn’t testify to the Truth because it “might” offend someone? God forbid. Korah was offended that Moses was the one God was using to lead Israel, and he was simply offended by Moses BEING Moses. Isn’t the entire congregation Holy? Aaron and Miriam spoke against Moses because he was not the ONLY one God spoke by. However, the Lord said this concerning Moses:

Numbers 12:7 - My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.

Moses was FAITHFUL in all the house. So, he was given special recognition above others that God ALSO spoke through. He was spoken to “mouth to mouth”.

We must not only be called to Lord. We must not only be chosen to the Lord. We must be FAITHFUL to the Lord. The word “faithful” is enough in itself. “Full of faith” and full of the faith of Christ….

Can anyone honestly say that Christ would buy a gift for others if he were walking on this earth now so as not to offend another who practices that tradition? Is gift giving bad, wrong, or not fun? NO. It is fun to give gifts, and it is good. God loves a cheerful giver, but do we “give” simply to go along with a tradition of men? I can not simply because “everyone else” does. However, that is for me, and not for everyone. Christ IS walking this earth, in OUR flesh, Lord willing, and indeed we are ambassadors for Christ. THAT light can not be hid!

1 John 4:17 - Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

“As he is, ….IN THIS WORLD….so are we”

When we don’t want to offend someone, scriptural speaking, we do not want to do something to that person that would entice/provoke them to sin. Take this little story as an example, as there are many more:

Matthew 15:11 - Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
Matthew 15:12 - Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
Matthew 15:13 - But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
Matthew 15:14 - Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Simply put, Christ did not deny they were indeed offended, but then He himself called them BLIND. They thought they could SEE that this saying of Christ about what defiles a man was wrong! It offended them; none-the-less, it was truth.

Another example:

Matthew 5:30 - And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

This is the same greek word G4624. If something causes you to SIN stop doing it. Pluck it off or out of your life!

Another example:
Peter has just answered for Christ when He said, “Yes”. His master pays tribute. Christ then says this:

Matthew 17:27 - Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them (entice/provoke them to sin because Peter had already said yes), go thou to the sea, and cast a hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.

Here is what I truly believe we are doing when we show Love, the love of God. We keep His commandments.

1 John 3:17 - But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? (how dwelleth the commandments of God in him – Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind and Love thy neighbor as thyself.

We must simply show others love by keeping the commandments of God.

I must conclude that we can definitely personally keep ourselves from the traditions of men and of the world. Though the traditions will be going on all around us, we are in the world but not OF THE WORLD. Though, I have a winter break and my work is out, I still do no personally practice the holiday, though I have time off to do so if I wanted to. Though businesses are open and have special pricing, I will not simply go “Christmas shopping”, etc. It is within that we are defiled, from the heart and mind, NOT from the outside, as I think we all agree. As it has been said, lets make sure it is from within that we are not defiling the Word of God, because the world – the outside CAN NOT defile us simply because they are keeping the tradition of Christmas, but we can and do defile ourselves when we ourselves participate, if that is what the Lord has shown you by faith to be wrong.

I was told by certain family members that coming to the family Christmas parties and participating was a something God knew about and knew where my heart is with it. “I can participate in the parts I like, and go into another room when parts I don’t like come along that I don’t like.” Is it possible to spiritually separate myself from the traditions of the holidays, but still go and participate in them?

It is not possible, because by the very act of participating, my spirit is involved. Whatever the reasons I use to justify my flesh and it’s needs, those reasons do not excuse the fact that I AM participating if I give gifts, go to parties, accept and send greeting cards, etc., simply because it is that time of year, and I don’t want anyone to see my as selfish, cheap, unloving, a Christ hater, etc., etc., etc. I have been called all these things already. My wife was told to divorce me as quickly as possible. I was called many names because I choose to stand on a solid Rock, and not on a tradition of men and all the activities associated with it. We have to be seperated from our brothers, because the chosen are indeed seperated as much as the called are seperated from the uncalled. Everyone we meet is Christ. We are all brothers. So, we must be seperated from doing our Father wrong, and His flock wrong, as our brothers do.

Again, this is just what I have come to see. There is no way to separate myself from it unless I AM separate from it, and that is all of the Lord. It isn’t for everyone. If I know it is wrong to do so, but still do it, I am worthy of MANY STRIPES.

Is it wrong to tell others why I won’t participate? No, it is not. Would it be wrong for me to tell them why THEY shouldn’t participate? Yes. Unless of course, they ASKED me my opinion on it, then I would tell them.

I, too, hope no one is offended/enticed/provoked by this post. It simply is a post to clarify what the reasoning is to give my family such a letter. It is not to change their mind, but to show them my mind is changed – from within.

We all have our own understanding of the matter. I pray continually that I will be gven mroe and more of the mind of Christ, and that not only will I be given that mind but once there - abide in that mind. We are all blessed beyond our imaginations by the things the Lord shows us, but we must still endure to the end with the things we are shown. He that is given much is expected much.

Steve Crook

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Thank you again from my heart and with tears -Again you have given me much hope.

In His Love,
sandra
And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said,
The kingdom of God cometh not with observation; Neither shall they say, Lo here: or, lo there: for behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Lk17:20-21
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Timothy Vaughan
Nov 28 2006, 06:28 PM
Dear Forum,

I do agree with mikes acticles on the subject.james 4:10-12

We must be careful how we handle the word of GOD.And the EXAMPLE/LIGHT we(christ in us) set for others.Mt 5:14-19/1 peter 4:1-19/1 peter 1:14-16/ex19:6/due 26:19/1 cor 4:1-5

With this Also in mind:1 cor 8:1-13/roms 14: 1-23

With this in mind.There are 3 simple bible Definitions of SIN:(that i have found)

1. 1 jn 3:4 /Whosoever committeth SIN transgresseth the law:(law of christ/ not moses law/roms 8:2/freed from that/2 cor 3:6) For SIN is the transgression of the law (of christ)

2. ROMANS 14:23/ last part =for Whatsoever is NOT of faith is SIN.

3. James 4:17/Therefore to HIM that (knoweth) to do good ,and doeth it not , to HIM it IS SIN.

Now many people DON'T know that the (holidays are pagan){Note; some one might not know
something but it still hurts them} Some know it & do it anyway/i think you know what i mean .
this is GOD'S doing.resist it NOT.Yet within the body of CHRIST. We must be very CAREFUL. in this regard? 1 tim 5:20

It is not my responsibility to judge ANOTHER man's servant.romans 14:1-7?
But in the same breath Are we not to judge angels(messengers/good or bad messages?)1 cor 6:1-7?

All I know is this ? James 4:11-12/

So in conclusion it all DEPENDS ON THE SPIRIT IN QUESTION? 1 jn 4:1 What is the motive?

God created this motive/eitier by his SPIRIT of WISDOM OR a STRONG DELUSION. so in the end it is HIS BUSINESS.But HIS BUSINESS IS MY BUSINESS Luke 2:49/ 1jn 4:17
But as with all things(GOD) this is MOST important!

Know this (A LITTLE LEAVEN (sin) HEB 3:13 LEAVENS the WHOLE LUMP/ BODY) what a man sows he reaps/God is NOT MOCKED)

HEBREWS 12:14 Follow PEACE with ALL men,and HOLINESS, without which no man SHALL (NEAR FUTURE) see the Lord.

God has saw it fit to teach me his paths (concerning HOLY DAYS) in the SPIRIT not in the FLESH
(law of moses/lev 23/num 28/Isa 8;13-20).Yet he still wants me to SPEAK ACCORDING TO HIS LAW & TESTIMONY OR THIER IS NO LIGHT/CHRIST IN ME.

I hope in some way this may help ? I'm open to critism? prov 21:11/ james 3:12-18

Please respond,

HIS PEACE unto all,

TIMOTHY
2 tim 2:24-26

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Timothy,
Thank you for this post, truley uplifting.

In his love,
sandra

And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said,
The kingdom of God cometh not with observation; Neither shall they say, Lo here: or, lo there: for behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Lk17:20-21
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Nancy
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sandra
Dec 1 2006, 11:41 PM
hope All WILL 'SEE' and read my post again.!!! Althougth I thanked a brother openly for his encouragement,and hopefully encouraged him in some small way, and revealed -mentioned the article on Mike's (a teacher of mine and of God) site. OUR teaching is ALL through The Holy Spirit. JESUS,
i hope none would think i condone or set an example to tell "Our Own" including our personal families that what they do is "wrong". This is not my place but God's only.
As Dustin pointed out how clearly WRONG this is, and I AGREE ,and WE "SEE" by HIS example. how clearly we can truly "Hurt someone's heart" especially "Our OWN"(Mat 12:46-50)

Sandra, you are a dear sister! By what you have written, it grieves me that you might think that I or anyone judged you as being too harsh on your non-believing family. You were expressing that you were encouraged by Steve Crook's article.

It was my fault for not stating that I, too, was encouraged by Steve's article, as I was by Timothy's comments and verse citations. The more that the Lord shows us, the narrower our path becomes.

One of the hardest things I have ever done was to tell my family 4 years ago (mother; brother and his family) that we were no longer going to celebrate the Christmas holidays with them. There is so little support for this position from any of professing Christendom; most people assume that you are practicing Judaism and don't believe in Jesus if you don't celebrate Christmas.

I confess that when I discovered the truth about Christmas and Easter, I was shocked! I was deeply grieved that what I thought was worship was actually idolatry. My husband and I immediately purposed in our hearts to withdraw from every single aspect of it. Our neighbors at the time thought we had gone crazy; we had always decorated our home with lights and put up a Christmas tree. Our children were somewhat disappointed, but, to their great credit, they quickly accomodated this drastic change.

The practical aspects of this abstention, as I pointed out in my original post, have caused me to realize that certain modifications are necessary.

What I have learned, dear Sandra, and what I think you are also pointing out to us, is that we have to be SO careful not to let our flesh direct our actions! This is the greatest challenge! Sometimes it is the flesh (and I hasten to say that I esteem all of you higher than myself (Philippians 2:3), so I speak only for myself, and present myself as a cautionary tale that others might not stumble as I have) that looks with disdain on heathen practices and those who participate, to the point of appearing unloving and uncaring.

Yes, as Mike said, we bear with others in their infirmities, but we don't participate. Just as with our children, we bear with them in their limited understanding and allow them their games and pasttimes. But we don't regress to their level just to make them feel more comfortable. They depend upon us to exhibit greater maturity and understanding, that someday they will come into their own maturity. We have to set the example. It's just what Dustin was saying in his post.

I would hope that the Lord would use my husband and children and me as witnesses to my family of origin. Even though I did not always handle things as though I walked after the spirit, they have been impressed with how quickly we became convicted. Even though they persist in their celebrations, they have adjusted their expectations of us to the point that we can now make practical adjustments without our spiritual standing being questioned.

Steve's letter to his family, as hard as it is to write, is a necessary step in coming out from the Babylonian practices of orthodoxy. Steve's family's reactions are so similar to what I experienced from my own family. I think there has to be some physical manifestation -- such as refraining from giving gifts and staying away from family parties -- as a way of undergirding the spiritual understanding.

It really does go to a question I asked a few months ago: what does the life of the elect look like in the physical/material sense? (Again, not supposing that I will have endured to the end, but always having that blessed hope.) What do we wear, what do we eat, what holidays do we observe?

I do pray that I have been an encouragement to you, Sandra, and perhaps to others, too.

--Nancy
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Thank you Nancy, your post was very encouraging. I hope to be humble, as I have learned something from you all. :)

Col 3:14 But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection.

Peace and love to all,
Dustin
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Thank you Dustin for your post of Love. And I ask God to keep me humble in his sight also.

Nancy - I know God is our Judge and I have to answer to him as we all will some day. This is not what i was saying in my post. So please do not take it this way. Right now I don't want anyone's heart to Grieve. I mean this in all sincerity.

I have much that is going on here right now -similar to what Steve expressed he was experiencing on this matter I have a family member who thinks i am depressed and suicidle, my children 2 sons in their young 20's ,now think i belong to a cult, my younger son is fearful he is losing his mother -suggest me going back to church once a week and read my bible for only an hour a day- say's he might not call me anymore because i talk to much about God. . My husband now, not the childrens father , thinks i study to much, going crazy and might need some pills. Although he is behind me on what God is doing with me. He is not really interested in the word of God. (i do wish he was in front of me)!!

Especially in this last year -i do look like i am loosing it to my unbelieving family. For all these changes came about in one year. In church, out of church,(studying all the time) no pagan holiday's -And i can't explain to them why!! I would love to have borrowed Steve's letter to his family if i knew they could read God's words and understand even a little. Or even share the little God has Given me with them.

Especially this holiday, it is hurting them and i don't want to, God knows. Especially my children. You have got to remember also, I was as pagan as they come.
it's like this -my son wants his new mom, But wants the old one back without the defects. I told him i can't do this. He doen't realize it's not up to me. And that God is making all things new.
As you mentioned Nancy I cannot let my Flesh direct my actions and i realize in more ways than one what you are saying and you are right, However my flesh right now would keep these holidays in a heart beat especially this one comming .If God wanted me to. It would save me alot of pain. When God called me out of the church, my biggest fear was that my unbeliveing family would stumble after i thought i was setting a good example for them and they started to see some light through me . Of course it wasn't me at all.
When i told my older son i would not be celebrating the holidays he asked if the JW's do this -i said i don't know but it's what God wants me to do. He asked if i was still going to church. I said no. He said it was a good thing he didn't go then!!
These are not the examples, i would expect ever to have made for my nonbelieving family-when Jesus called me.
I thought about how appearing uncaring and unloving it would look like, especially to my children or how i would hurt their feelings and again make them stumble more -knowing how we once perceived Christmas ourselves. It definitly looks like i am moving away from God to them, instead of closer. And further away from them. !!

You say the more the Lord shows us the narrower our path becomes.(this i believe) Also there is so little support on this . This i know. I look to those now who have greater maturity and understanding such as yourself and others to set the example.!!
How can i please God and man?
How can i keep Gods commandments and not partake of the world . You are right it is all around us it's in our culture it is in the world.
How can i give my son his old mom back with the new?
How can i avoid giving my family pain as well as myself for 4 years and still you say this is the first step -to avoid gift giving and such to undergird the spirit. -so does my family have to suffer while i go through this process? only to go back?
I am really asking sincerly, because it will save me alot of grief. Especially right now. And this looks confusing to me.
And i have been searching my spirit and reading Gods word and i still don't have these answers. But the same original command he gave me. He is very strict on serving any other Gods. And this issue here seems to concern Him alot.!!
Help please.!! am i missing something in Gods word? your post is a little confusing to me -

I have one last christiandom friend left here who is vanishing away more and more -the last time i spoke to her she said she might not put up a tree but she still goes to the church?

I know someday Heaven and Earth will pass away and only his word will remain. Then i don't have to worry about hurting anyone. what to wear what to eat what to celebrate. But for now all this physicall stuff fits in to his spiritual stuff.

ps i remember a little bit about the post you were talking about what should we wear etc. i think you even mentioned about if a piece of jewlery had a pagan symbol should you buy it? something like that , It made me think too about these things.
I have other things to overcome but for now this looks like anothor big first step? and the year is not quite done.!! Praise God !!

Forgive my spelling or wording i am not gifted as well as others in this area. I am a little worn out -i really don't want to have to put cold compresses on my eyes to open them in the morning again.!! Any and all Posts welcome from my sisters and brothers in Christ. Need help.

I have one thought -What if God is using this holiday especially, so we will be hated of all men? family or brethren? Just a thought!!! The whole world celebrates it on the same day.

In His Love,
sandra
And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said,
The kingdom of God cometh not with observation; Neither shall they say, Lo here: or, lo there: for behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Lk17:20-21
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ps. The more the Lord shows us the Narrower our path becomes. the Lord put it on my heart to study where this word (Christ mass)came from and in actuality what is coming off of our lips when we put Merry in front of it.

This is some of the knowledge he has shown me. And is for me only. But just want to mention this.

Read God's word and ask Him for direction and wisdom and He will give you guidance in this matter. I would only add that "bear the infirmities of the weak," is not to be understood as 'participate in the infirmities of the weak.' We must always remain faithful to the knowledge God has given us.
Mike

I printed this again to show it is the last line that i am truly concerned with.
and if i am not faithful even in the little things he has begun to show me to the best of the ability he has given me, how will i be able to bear the many things he has yet to tell me, that i cannot bear now?

In His Love,
sandra
And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said,
The kingdom of God cometh not with observation; Neither shall they say, Lo here: or, lo there: for behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Lk17:20-21
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