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The Law; Help again!!
Topic Started: Feb 1 2007, 08:09 PM (1,902 Views)
Mickyd
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My friend that I had been in exchange with has brought in another person who has blown things out of the universe in his mind....I've been in exchange with him for a few days now and could use some help.

Anyone care to give some insight? His remarks are in "quotes".

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." Matt 5:17

Quote:
 
Fulfill means to "obey" or to "show how to obey". If it meant to complete, then why does He continue this verse by saying, "not one jot or tittle will pass"?

Because He was saying, "I have come to show you people how to truly live in accordance with Torah, because I am the Living Torah". Read John 1 for proof that Yeshua IS the Torah! The living Torah, and this book is The Written Torah. These two are one and the same. Yeshua is the Torah made manifest in flesh!


Do you believe Jesus "fulfilled" the Law or not?

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Of course He obeyed Yah's Law! That was one of the reasons why He came!


"For Christ is the consummation of law for righteousness to everyone who is believing." Rom 10:4

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That's right, He is The Law, the very meaning of The Written Torah, except that He is in the flesh! He is the Torah made manifest in flesh!


So that

"For ALL THE LAW is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Gal 5:14

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This is also right, all the Law can be obeyed with 2 commandments, Love Yah (Thus you will desire to obey all Laws pertaining to Him) and love your neighbor as yourself (Then you won't want to steal, cheat or harm him in anyway either). Thus, all the law is fulfilled (obeyed) as soon as you learn to truly do those two things. Love Yah and Love your neighbor as yourself;"


and

"Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He TAKETH AWAY the first, that he may establish the second." Heb 10:9

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Yes but don't take that out of context. The first law will not be completed until:

1) The lion lays down with the lamb(Is 11:6-10)

2) The Torah is put on hearts and minds of the elect (chosen ones) (Jer. 31:31-34) 

3) Yeshua's enemies are made a footstool under His feet(Heb 1:13).

In the meantime, Yeshua sits at the right hand of Yah the Father. (Heb. 1:!3) The Law was a shadow of the good things to come.

That's right... "To come" not yet here, rather still to come!


"For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can NEVER with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect." Heb 10:1

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That's right... "To come" not yet here, rather still to come! The New Covenant is currently in the process of being fulfilled. The spring feasts have been fulfilled, the autumn feasts have not. After they are fulfilled, the New Covenant will be fulfilled. More on this below.


"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that NO MAN is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith." Gal 3:10 - 11

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The beginning part that says," For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse", what does that mean? Does it mean to do wrong otherwise you will be punished? Of course not. This is what it means.

All men have sinned. All men have fallen short. If any man thinks that he has never sinned, or that his obedience to Torah will save him.... guess what, he is under a curse. Why, because he is like the Torah teachers in Matthew 9:13. He is over estimating himself and his compliance to Torah. He is not looking at his life from YHWH's point of view. Even if he never sins (violates Torah) again from this day on, the damage has already been done because he has sinned (violated Torah) in the past. That is why this verse continues, "No man is justified by the law". Everyone has sinned at some point in their life, and the wages for that sin is death. There is only one hope that mankind has, and I will tell it to you now:

To admit that you are a sinner (a violate of Torah) to YHWH, trust in the blood of Yeshua to pay the price for past violations of Torah, and then repent (Change into a Torah doer) in other words, obey Torah. When you obey Torah, you do not intentionally sin!


So..... trying to keep the old law (any part of it) is to suggest Yeshua did NOT fulfill it.....because if one believes he did fulfill the law, why would he tempt God by trying to keep that which Yeshua fulfilled, unless He secretly thinks his fulfillment of the law is not sufficient?

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First, what is the "Old Law"? There is and always will be only one Law, YHWH's Law. For proof of this read Jer. 31:31-34 again. I will put my Torah on their hearts and in their minds. It doesn't say that He will put a "New Torah", it say's He will put "His Torah" on my heart and my mind. If you can find one piece of evidence that there is a new Torah coming, I would love to see it. The fact is that the same Torah that has always been, will always be.

Second, Yeshua did not end the Law. He obeyed it and showed us the perfect example of perfect obedience. Fulfill means to obey.

I know that Yeshua did obey the Law, but the writer of the above paragraph seems to think that Yeshua ended the Law. If that were the case then Matthew 5:17 says, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to end it." Matt 5:17

Does that make any sense whatsoever? No!

Third, you say if someone believes Yeshua "why would he tempt God by trying to keep that which Yeshua fulfilled" what logic is in this? You make it sound like it is wrong to do right! Do you really think that disobeying YHWH is a good thing? Yeshua was sent to forgive the sins in your past and any future UNINTENTIONAL sins! Not to give you a loop hole to continue doing wrong! That is legalistic!


"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Heb 8:7 - 8

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This is a true statement. That days is coming (and is not yet here) as so many seem to think it is. You will know when that day arrives because:

1) Torah will be on my heart and mind. (Jer. 31:31-33)

***NOTE: Not a new Torah, just a New Covenant (Contract)!

2) Teaching Torah to others will not be a required because all people will know Torah instinctively. (Jer. 31:34)


"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth ALL THE FULNESS of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of ALL principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, OR OF THE SABBATH DAYS: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." Col 2:8-17

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This is absolutely true!  Let's start with the first sentence, "Beware, lest any man spoil you" 

How would they do that?

"through philosophy and vain deceit". In other words, "Traditions of men" "after the rudiments of the world" "and not after Messiah"

Through philosophy, like saying that YHWH's Law is not required, thus blatantly opposing Yah's very own words!

Through vain deceit, in other word "empty lies". Lies such as saying that YHWH doesn't mind if you don't do what He says you are to do (Such as His Torah!)

Through Traditions of men, in other words putting man made practice above YHWH's Commands!

And note the last part "not after Messiah"! In other words, not doing as Messiah did, not LIVING TORAH!

Don't be fooled by such people!

Second sentence: "For in him" In Yeshua "dwelleth ALL THE FULNESS" lives the complete package "of the Godhead bodily" of YHWH! (In other words, in Yeshua, lived YHWH's perfect Torah)

Third sentence: "And ye are complete in him" in other words, "And you are perfect if you follow His example"

If you want me to go through line by line, let me know, send me an E-mail. Otherwise (for now) I am going to skip to the bottom portion.

Last part of this passage reads: "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, OR OF THE SABBATH DAYS: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."


It basically means this, "Do not let anyone tell you that you can disobey YHWH, by eating whatever your carnal heart or stomach desires and do not let them tell you that you are doing wrong by eating what YHWH's Torah allows. Do not drink blood even if the world says you can (common practice among pagan rituals), and do not worry if these same people tell you that you are not to drink something if YHWH's Torah is not contrary to such. Do not let anyone harass you because you no longer celebrate their pagan holidays of Christmas, Easter, Halloween or any other pagan ritual, and do not let them condemn you for following those Holy Days that YHWH has prescribed as everlasting (perpetual) commandments in Torah (Lev. 23). Do not follow these pagan inhabitants of your city when they tell you that Sunday is the true day of worship, and do not let them harass you for keeping YHWH's 4th commandment of the 7th day commandment. You see, you were once part of them, but now you are set apart! You were once like that, but now you are rescued! So don't go back to that lie! You're different now! So obey Yah's Torah!

One last thing..

Think about this: What if Abraham said, "Yes I know you want me to go and sacrifice Isaac and I completely trust you and love you. The thing is this, I can't sacrifice Isaac because he is my favorite son. I trust you and I really do love you, but actually obeying you.... well now your asking a lot. I can't do it".

Now I ask you, would Abraham had been found righteous because he trusted YHWH? You see, the Scripture does not say that Abraham was found righteous because he obeyed YHWH. He was found righteous because he trusted! But, Abrahams trust was manifested in him obeying! If you trust in YHWH and Yeshua, you will obey His Torah! Obedience is the manifested form of faith, just as Yeshua is the manifested flesh (or form) of Torah!


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SteveO
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Here's the advice i'd give you MickyD....DON'T ARGUE WITH PEOPLE WHO'S MINDS ARE MADE UP.

If the person is sincere in his question, and is seeking understanding, then by all means, but if the person just wants a fight...leave them alone, God 'is not working with them right now'.

A HUGE thing i've learned in the past few years is when you try to MAKE people see the truth IT WILL NOT WORK. Blind people CANT see. YOu actually are fighting AGAINST God when you try, i know, i've done it, and had to repent for it.


Its sounds by your statement:


"I've been in exchange with him for a few days now and could use some help."



And his responses...


"Yes but don't take that out of context. The first law will not be completed until:

1) The lion lays down with the lamb(Is 11:6-10)

2) The Torah is put on hearts and minds of the elect (chosen ones) (Jer. 31:31-34)

3) Yeshua's enemies are made a footstool under His feet(Heb 1:13).

In the meantime, Yeshua sits at the right hand of Yah the Father. (Heb. 1:!3) The Law was a shadow of the good things to come.

That's right... "To come" not yet here, rather still to come!"




...that he's trying to 'teach you', but i may be wrong. I would just lovingly remind you of these verses...

Tit 3:9 Yet stand aloof from stupid questioning and genealogies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain."
Tit 3:10 A sectarian man, after one and a second admonition, refuse,
Tit 3:11 being aware that such a one has turned himself out, and is sinning, being self-condemned."

Sounds like you may be at this stage...


Peace...Steve
Deu 6:4 Hear, Israel! Yahweh is our Elohim; Yahweh the only One.
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Mickyd
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Feb 1 2007, 11:22 PM
Here's the advice i'd give you MickyD....DON'T ARGUE WITH PEOPLE WHO'S MINDS ARE MADE UP.

If the person is sincere in his question, and is seeking understanding, then by all means, but if the person just wants a fight...leave them alone, God 'is not working with them right now'.

A HUGE thing i've learned in the past few years is when you try to MAKE people see the truth IT WILL NOT WORK. Blind people CANT see. YOu actually are fighting AGAINST God when you try, i know, i've done it, and had to repent for it.


Its sounds by your statement:


"I've been in exchange with him for a few days now and could use some help."



And his responses...


"Yes but don't take that out of context. The first law will not be completed until:

1) The lion lays down with the lamb(Is 11:6-10)

2) The Torah is put on hearts and minds of the elect (chosen ones) (Jer. 31:31-34)

3) Yeshua's enemies are made a footstool under His feet(Heb 1:13).

In the meantime, Yeshua sits at the right hand of Yah the Father. (Heb. 1:!3) The Law was a shadow of the good things to come.

That's right... "To come" not yet here, rather still to come!"




...that he's trying to 'teach you', but i may be wrong. I would just lovingly remind you of these verses...

Tit 3:9 Yet stand aloof from stupid questioning and genealogies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain."
Tit 3:10 A sectarian man, after one and a second admonition, refuse,
Tit 3:11 being aware that such a one has turned himself out, and is sinning, being self-condemned."

Sounds like you may be at this stage...


Peace...Steve

Yes...I don't like to argue doctrine. Never have. But, I didn't start this arguement. I was asked a few questions, and when I replied in all honesty and in spirit, I was attacked by wolves in sheeps clothing. Now there are TWO wolves instead of one.

I have been in position before and God has brought me through fire, giving me strength to fight the good fight of faith. I'm not harmed by the fire....but there are others who ARE being consumed by it. That's what bothers me.

It is for this purpose that I have asked for help from my brothers and sisters...not for my own sake.

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SteveO
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Hi MickyD,

You Said:


"Yes...I don't like to argue doctrine. Never have. But, I didn't start this arguement. I was asked a few questions, and when I replied in all honesty and in spirit, I was attacked by wolves in sheeps clothing. Now there are TWO wolves instead of one."



It's cool to give responses to questions asked in a manner of 'good will', but those who are 'wolves in sheeps clothing' as you say, are not to engage in when it comes to spiritual matters.


YOu said:


"I have been in position before and God has brought me through fire, giving me strength to fight the good fight of faith. I'm not harmed by the fire....but there are others who ARE being consumed by it. That's what bothers me."



I'm glad God IS BRINGING(is, was, and WILL BE), you through the fire. Although, God will bring you through the 'fire' unharmed, yet we know you are enduring the 'lake of fire' experience, as this particular trial is teaching you. This is the fire, that God will (Lord willing) use to show you how you are to deal with those 'brothers and sisters' in Christ who choose lies instead of the truth.

If you do as the bible prescribes in this trail, while enduring this fire, YOU WILL NOT BE BURNED OR EVEN THE SMELL OF SMOKE BE ON YOU.

I know there are those who as you say, " are being consumed by it", but those who God is not DRAGGING to himself you have to have faith God knows what he's doing, and that one day they will be saved. In fact this 'fire' they are being consumed by is actually in the greater scheme part of God's plan for them, and IS GOOD FOR THEM TO ENDURE.

I was like you, i wanted to go to my family and friends to 'straiten them out', but it blew up in my face. In fact and please listen to this carefully...When you push the truth (in a non-biblical way {i.e. after the second admonition}) on these peoples ears YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE THERE JUDGMENT WORSE! Here's the verse that shows that....

Luk 12:48 "But the one not having known, and having done [things] worthy of a beating, will be repeatedly beaten with few [lashes]. So to every [one] to whom much was given, much will be demanded from him, and to whom they entrusted much, all the more they will ask of him.

The more a person is exposed to the truth and rejects it THE WORSE his or her judgment will be, because who much is given much is required.




You said:


"It is for this purpose that I have asked for help from my brothers and sisters...not for my own sake."




I know you want to help these people and your heart is in the right place, but i warn you to please meditate on these verses for a day...


Tit 3:9 But be avoiding foolish controversies and genealogies and quarrels and fights [fig., disputes] about law, for they are unprofitable and futile.
Tit 3:10 Be rejecting a divisive [or, heretical] person after a first and second warning,
Tit 3:11 knowing that such [a person] has been corrupted and is sinning, being self-condemned.


Peace...Steve


Deu 6:4 Hear, Israel! Yahweh is our Elohim; Yahweh the only One.
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Mickyd
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Quote:
 
The more a person is exposed to the truth and rejects it THE WORSE his or her judgment will be, because who much is given much is required.


I've never heard it put that way before. :shock:

Thanks Steve....I will not bother you with this again.
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ertsky
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Steve! Titus 3:9-11 is so helpful.

Mickyd these guys are in the grip of some serious weirdness, "latter day law keepers" LOL!! preposterous

i wonder if they are they killing people that break the law, like i wonder if they would execute adulterers, after all, the law commands it!

Joh 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
Joh 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
Joh 8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
Joh 8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
Joh 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
Joh 8:8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
Joh 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
Joh 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Gal 5:9 A little leaven leavens all the lump.
Gal 5:10 I trust as to you in the Lord that you will think nothing else, but that the one troubling you shall bear the judgment, whoever he may be.
Gal 5:11 But I, brothers, if I proclaim circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the offense of the Cross has passed away.
Gal 5:12 O that the ones causing you to doubt will sever themselves.
Gal 5:13 For, brothers, you were called to freedom. Only do not use the freedom for an opening to the flesh. But through love serve one another.
Gal 5:14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Lev. 19:18

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision has any strength nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
Gal 6:16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace and mercy be on them and on the Israel of God.

i think i will be happy if i never hear of these "OT law loving buffoons" again.

f
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ertsky
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i believe i just heard in the spirit

Phi 3:2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
Phi 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

interesting in other translations as well

Phi 3:2 Beware of the dogs, beware of mischievous workers, beware of the mutilation;

f

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ertsky
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i was thinking wouldn't it be great if these "law buffoons" were to go to a home fellowship meeting and the host would stand and say, tonight we have a surprise guest speaker, the apostle Paul LOL!

i think Paul had a conspicuous intense intolerance of "OT law bondage dudes"

it comes through in galatians strongly, i would rather be snowball in a blast furnace than an "OT law preacher" in a meeting where Paul was speaking. (Christ in Paul).



:D :lol: :lol:
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Mickyd
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One thing I'm wondering is why it's called the "Law of Moses" instead of the Law of God.

"And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice. And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments,that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it." Deu 4:12-14

Could this be what is called "commandments of men"?

All of this is confusing me as well.

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ertsky
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i've been under the law so many times i could tell you what the sole of it's foot looks like, it looks like impending death!

i heard this one earlier (express delivery)

Act 15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
Act 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
Act 15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Act 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Act 15:30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
Act 15:31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.


PRAISE GOD!!


f
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ertsky
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through our God we shall do valiantly it is He Who will tread down our enemies

yes within and without

inwardly and outwardly

let the enemies of God discover to their shame

Isa 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

f
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ertsky
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fantastic post Steve!!

a big AMEN! from me

i rejoice to see such clarity of vision

who's your physician He must be an eye specialist!!

just as you say Steve



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GLORY TO HIS NAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


f
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ertsky
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ah Steve

carnal law for a carnal man (first adam old frank)

spiritual law for a spiritual man (second adam new creature Lord from heaven)

wonderful clarity

f

i tell you brother my mind isn't exactly sure whats going on but my spirit is leaping!!
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SteveO
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Here's a link to a talk Mike gave on the law...

http://www.aionios.com/mp3s/TheLaw.mp3
Deu 6:4 Hear, Israel! Yahweh is our Elohim; Yahweh the only One.
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Timothy Vaughan
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Thanks Steve,

And those with you,

Amen Mike
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