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| What Does It Mean To Be Called 'gods'?; explaination of 'trinity talk' questions | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 4 2007, 12:51 AM (866 Views) | |
| SteveO | Feb 4 2007, 12:51 AM Post #1 |
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I don't plan to spend a lot of time on this, because Deedle and Frank did a good job exposing this issue. Mike has dealt with it repeatedly, for those with question please email him or myself if you have 'good will' questions. What does it mean to be called 'Gods'? Lets see... 1Co 8:4 Concerning, then, the eating of idol-sacrifices, we are aware-that an idol is, nothing, in the world, and that, none, is God save one. Here we are told there is ONLY ONE GOD. 1Co 8:5 For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, Here were told the term 'gods' can be a descriptor of things in HEAVEN OR IN EARTH [DING, DING, DING]. Being called 'gods' DOES NOT MAKE ONE THE FATHER, as well see in the proceeding verses. 1Co 8:6 Yet, to us, there is one God the Father, of whom are all things, and, we, for him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and, we, through him. Christ is called God so many times in the bible i'm not even going to list the verses. So how can Christ not be Father-God, and still be called God? The word 'God' is a title just like 'Christ' is a title. Father-God is not a title, but SPIRIT [though the title applies to Him]. The basic meaning of 'God' is to be a 'placer', or having the ability to 'place things'. Does the Father 'place'? Yes, He placed Jesus Christ. Does Jesus Christ 'place'; of course He's the one who 'placed' the whole world. Jesus Christ 'places' so therefore Jesus Christ IS CALLED GOD. Read the next verse carefully... 1Co 8:7 Howbeit, not in all, is the knowledge; but, some, by their familiarity, until even now, with the idol, as an idol-sacrifice, eat it, and, their conscience, being, weak, is defiled. What does it mean when were told that 'God is One'? Check out one of my favorite verses in scripture... Deu 6:4 Hear, Israel! Yahweh is our Elohim; Yahweh the only One. In English this would read... Here, Israel! Jehovah [Jehovah meaning “the existing One” His 'proper name'] is our Gods [a title given]; Jehovah the only One. Elohim IS PLURAL as showed us here... Gen 3:22 And saying is Yahweh Elohim, "Behold! The human [IS] become[ING] as ONE OF US, knowing good and evil. And now, lest he stretch forth his hand, moreover, and take of the tree of the living, and eat and live for the eon--! Did you see that? 'The human IS BECOMING AS ONE OF US'. 'ONE OF US'! You mean 'ONE' can be plural? We have to understand the English language doesn't always capture the 'real translation' of particular words. When Christ says... Joh 10:30 I and the Father, We are one." Joh 17:11 And no longer am I in the world, and they are in the world, and I to Thee am coming. Holy Father, keep them in Thy name, in which Thou hast given them to Me, that they may be one, according as We are." Christ isn't speaking as we think of the number one like '1 + 1=2', He's speaking spiritually, telling us He and His Father are ONE MIND, ONE HEART, ONE VOICE, ONE SPIRIT. As Deedle showed in the 'Trinity' thread, this concept is shown to us in the marriage covenant. When the bible says.... Gen 2:24 Therefore a man shall forsake his father and his mother and cling to his wife, and they two become one flesh. What does being 'one flesh' mean? If you and your wife are 'one flesh' does that mean that you are your wife? Are you going to be judged for your wifes sins or for your own? Being one in Christ and in the Father doesn't mean your literally Christ, and the Father. It means you have the SAME MIND, THATS WHY WERE TOLD TO BE OF ONE MIND. When you do, your in a state of being 'ONE' WITH GOD. This is how Christ can be dying, and the universe still be in existence. Christ is not HIs Father literally, but nevertheless is ONE in the Father. In fact WE are called gods in the bible showing us being called 'gods' is in fact a 'title' that we are becoming. I hope this helps...Steve |
| Deu 6:4 Hear, Israel! Yahweh is our Elohim; Yahweh the only One. | |
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| ertsky | Feb 4 2007, 04:20 PM Post #2 |
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thanks Steve and amen! i wanted to clear up an error i made in the trinity thread as well. when i said in a post in the thread
it's the last part "i am one" that's in error and presumptuous i should have said God is one Christ is one and i am in a process of becoming one by God's mercy through Christ Jesus in me ###################### even though the works were finished from the foundation i do not want to be presumptuous 1Jo 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. i am saved in hope Christ in me the hope of glory as my avatar says "work in progress" that's me, His workmanship in progress i dont want to be presumptuous because it's not of he that wills or runs but of God who shows mercy Psa 65:4 How happy the man thou shalt choose and bring near! He shall bide in thy courts,—We shall be satisfied with, The blessing of thy house, The holiness of thy temple. 1Jo 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1Jo 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. f |
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| Pierac | Feb 5 2007, 09:53 PM Post #3 |
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Let me know if Mike wants to keep trinity talk closed. If it is an uncomfortable topic I understand. I don’t want to offend anyone. I want to share this because I think it’s right on the mark. Isa 28:9 "To whom will he teach knowledge, and to whom will he explain the message? Those who are weaned from the milk, those taken from the breast? Isa 28:10 For it is precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little." Paul |
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| IWWBAdmin | Feb 5 2007, 11:52 PM Post #4 |
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Steve, please do not get me wrong here but are we supposed to rest our salvation on the assumption of what man thinks of plurality? Is not revelation important? I completely agree with you that the Father is greater and One with the Son. God intentionally made His ways unsearchable so that no wisdom of men could understand. Do you believe that God is also sovereign over His word? God talks about himself like this throughout the entire bible. Dustin |
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| SteveO | Feb 6 2007, 12:51 AM Post #5 |
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Hi Dustin, You said: "Steve, please do not get me wrong here but are we supposed to rest our salvation on the assumption of what man thinks of plurality? Is not revelation important? I completely agree with you that the Father is greater and One with the Son. God intentionally made His ways unsearchable so that no wisdom of men could understand. Do you believe that God is also sovereign over His word? God talks about himself like this throughout the entire bible. " First I would say this...YOUR SALVATION IS A DONE DEAL. Your part in the 'first resurrection, first' is up to God, and Lord willing you will be there. Revelation IS VERY IMPORTANT, it's the ONLY way we receive the truth of Jesus Christ. Paul warns us that 'revelation' MUST BE FROM THE WORD OF GOD ONLY.... 1Co 4:6 Now these things, brethren, I transfer in a figure to myself and Apollos because of you, that in us you may be learning not to be disposed above what is written, that you may not be puffed up, one over the one, against the other." Not going 'above' that which is written...is TRUTH, and must put in to practice, so we don't have this 'new revelation' above what IS WRITTEN. You Said: "God intentionally made His ways unsearchable so that no wisdom of men could understand." This is a true statement, but implies that because mans wisdom is foolishness [which it is], and that we won't have the 'full knowledge' of God's ways in this life, that we can't glean from what He does allow us to know. Lets look at the verse you got the gist of sentence from... CLV-Rom 11:33 O, the depth of the riches and the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How inscrutable are His judgments, and untraceable His ways!" First, the word 'unsearchable' in the Greek is literally 'un-out-searchable', a BIG difference from 'unsearchable'. Second, the word 'past finding out' in the KJV is literally 'un-out-traceable', again BIG difference. The context of this statement is made when Paul is talking about 'Jew's' of Paul's time who had rejected the truth, and is explaining how that 'Israel' had been broken off. The whole bible is FULL of the judgments of God as explained in the history of Adam, Noah, and Israel etc. I'm not denying Rom. 11:33, but you have to understand what's being said is a SPIRITUAL STATEMENT. The judgement process is layd out in the bible in MINUET DETAIL. How can we judge 'ourselves' if we don't know how God wants us to judge 'ourselves'? This verse translated by the KJV would be in direct contradiction with ALL scripture if those words were to be translated like that. THE WHOLE BIBLE IS TELLING US ABOUT HIS WAYS! Just because we can't exhaust them doesn't mean we don't understand the parts He does allow us to understand. You said: "Do you believe that God is also sovereign over His word? God talks about himself like this throughout the entire bible. " Absolutely I believe God is sovereign, that's why we are NOT to go above that which is written. God preserved His word for us so that 'new revelations' could be 'put down' in a minute by.....what is written. Not this....'God told me to tell you to send me twenty thousand dollars and you'll be blessed'....utter nonsense or this....'women can preach or teach to men, and usurp authority over a man'.....foolishness. We're clearly told the contrary in THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN, so that these 'new revelation/level three' doctrine's can be put where they belong....the lake of fire. Paul, I'll send that thread to Mike tomorrow to look over. Peace...Steve |
| Deu 6:4 Hear, Israel! Yahweh is our Elohim; Yahweh the only One. | |
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| ertsky | Feb 6 2007, 01:05 AM Post #6 |
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Paul
what is uncomfortable to me is that you Paul were suggesting that Christ did not exist prior to His natural birth. that is false doctrine. as was established clearly in Deedle's and my posts in that thread. Dustin
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. does that establish it? if you guys wont submit to the word what am i supposed to do?! i will not continue to fellowship with people who continue to hold false doctrine after repeatedly being shown the true doctrine. f |
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| SteveO | Feb 6 2007, 01:12 AM Post #7 |
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Paul, We're you contending as Frank said, that Christ didn't exist before His natural birth? I didn't know that's what you were saying, and if it's true IS A FALSE DOCTRINE. We hold to being of 'one mind' here, and believe in Titus 3:10. You can email me or Mike about this. Steve |
| Deu 6:4 Hear, Israel! Yahweh is our Elohim; Yahweh the only One. | |
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| ertsky | Feb 6 2007, 01:35 AM Post #8 |
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sorry if i came on a bit strong there but i need to know does Paul (Pierac) hold that Christ was non existent before His Natural birth? does Dustin hold that God the Father is plural? sorry guys i need to know, we need to sort these things out, if i am to continue in fellowship with you. this is the IWWB forum and there shouldn't be doctrine here that contradicts what Mike teaches. f (also sorry to you Steve, it musn't be easy to moderate with a hothead like me going off) i submit to you Steve and the others Mike and Deedle etc it is your call (the Lords call) not mine. i'm just very keen to not have things contrary to sound doctrine here at the forum. f |
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| SteveO | Feb 6 2007, 01:43 AM Post #9 |
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"this is the IWWB forum and there shouldn't be doctrine here that contradicts what Mike teaches." Amen. We don't want to through 'babes' under the bus, but WE MUST do as the scriptures say, or why are we calling Christ, 'Lord, Lord...'. Peace...Steve |
| Deu 6:4 Hear, Israel! Yahweh is our Elohim; Yahweh the only One. | |
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| ertsky | Feb 6 2007, 01:49 AM Post #10 |
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Thanks Steve i should have known you would be right there with sound balance. and to all i say this is my prayer Psa 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: Psa 139:24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting. i fully expect God to tan my hide if there is any carnal intention in my outcry. f |
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| IWWBAdmin | Feb 6 2007, 10:33 PM Post #11 |
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Steve, Frank, I decided to address my comments and questions directly to Mike. Thank you for being so patient. Rom 15:4 Whatsoever things, in fact, were written aforetime, all for our own instruction were written,—in order that, through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures, we might have their hope. Rom 15:5 Now may, the God of the endurance and of the encouragement, give you, the same thing, to be regarding amongst one another, according to Christ Jesus; Rom 15:6 In order that, with one accord, with one mouth, ye maybe glorifying the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Rom 15:7 Wherefore receive ye one another, even as, Christ also, hath received us unto the glory of God Dustin P.S. Frank, I believe that God is only One. We know this by our experience. |
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| ertsky | Feb 6 2007, 11:24 PM Post #12 |
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Thanks Dustin f |
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