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How We Become Overcomers; Worldly Sorrow & Christ-Sorrow
Topic Started: Apr 23 2007, 04:49 PM (688 Views)
nbogosian
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Mike quotes Acts 9:16 in his article:

"For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake."

and I compare this to:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who, according to His vast mercy, regenerates us into a living expectation, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from among the dead, for the enjoyment of an allotment incorruptible and undefiled and unfading, kept in the heavens for you, who are garrisoned by the power of God, through faith, for salvation ready to be revealed in the last era, in which you are exulting; briefly at present, if it must be, being sorrowed by various trials, that the testing of your faith, much more precious than gold which is perishing, yet, being tested by fire, may be found for applause and glory and honor at the unveiling of Jesus Christ..." (1 Peter 1:3-7)

I also read in his article, "Does God send us our trials?":

"It is God sending an evil spirit to try us. It is NOT for Him to see what we will do, but for us to see what weak helpless creatures we really are."

I'm afraid I may have some false doctrines in this area. I am confused.

Is a TRIAL a SUFFERING? Meaning, is the AIM of God's Trying to get us to Christ? But then TRYING continues for the converted, too (there is still the next step of being an overcomer) - so then what is the purpose of TRIALS after one has been converted? I don't think I'm seeing the unity of these Scriptures together and unity in these Scriptures with Mike's words. That's why I'm writing this -

because I have been thinking a lot about a verse lately (can't remember where it is), but it says something like, 'Don't suffer because of the world - suffer because of Christ.' The verse was differentiating between worldy sorrow and righteous Christ-following sorrow. There has been a lot of sorrow in my life in the past week. God is destroying one of my great physical idols out of nowhere (which I am GLAD and in awe of). There are also a lot of feelings like I am being rejected and hurt by quite a few people - BUT this rejection isn't from anything I see to be relating to the persecution of Christ - HOWEVER, this very struggle IS making me crawl on my hands and knees like a baby to Christ for Comfort and Light. Any persecution I have faced because of Christ in my life has been mild - and yet, I feel I am suffering greatly - and I fear that I am suffering by the world.

Does anybody have any experience in this problem? Any clarification? Any Scriptures would be great.

Thank you!

~Nbogosian

"My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." (2 Cor. 12:9)
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ertsky
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Quote:
 
so then what is the purpose of TRIALS after one has been converted?


the word is clear

Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith is producing endurance.
Jas 1:4 Now let endurance have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and unimpaired, lacking in nothing."

1Pe 1:7 that the testing of your faith, much more precious than gold which is perishing, yet, being tested by fire, may be found for applause and glory and honor at the unveiling of Jesus Christ,

just some initial responses as i was attacking a sandwich on lunch

f

PS: i think you were looking for this verse

2Co 7:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Quote:
 
There has been a lot of sorrow in my life in the past week.


mmmmmm sorrow actually sounds quite good to me at the moment, compared to what i've been going through (just kidding, kind of)

i wish i could offer you some clear guidance but i am unsure exactly where to come in.

one thing is for certain

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

hope all sorts of comfort and consolation are yours soon and if not that you are strengthened mightily to endure as seeing the invisible.

f

Quote:
 
Does anybody have any experience in this problem?


yes, i would be surprised if it wasn't so

Quote:
 
Any clarification?


what exactly needs clarifying?

f
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Andrew

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Pro 3:11 The, chastening of Yahweh, my son, do not reject, nor loathe his rebuke;
Pro 3:12 For, whom Yahweh loveth, he correcteth, he causeth pain to the son in whom he delighteth.

Pro 12:1 Whoso loveth instruction4148 loveth knowledge: but he that hateth reproof is brutish.
H4148
מוּסר
mûsâr
moo-sawr'
From H3256; properly chastisement; figuratively reproof, warning or instruction; also restraint: - bond, chastening ([-eth]), chastisement, check, correction, discipline, doctrine, instruction, rebuke.

Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Heb 12:11 Now no chastening3809 for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
3809
παιδεία
paideia
pahee-di'-ah
From G3811; tutorage, that is, education or training; by implication disciplinary correction: - chastening, chastisement, instruction, nurture

Hope this helps.
Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord
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Bill Palmer
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Nbogosian - hi there! I'm sorry to hear you're having a rough time with things... It's never easy going through trials but take heart in the fact that God is working EVERYTHING after the counsel of his own will (Ephesians 1.11) and that no matter what the outcome, it has all been pre-ordained and planned by God.

You said "so then what is the purpose of TRIALS after one has been converted?"
Well Nbogosian as long as we're in this body of flesh, we will continue to be tempted and swayed by the lusts and drives of it... There's just no getting around that unfortunately! I used to think that at least when I physically die, well the fight with the beast is all over. It's not neccesarily true though... If I don't "endure to the end" and "abide" in the doctrine of Christ then I too can be cut off and bought up in the lake of fire as a spiritual being but still a "carnal babe" who must then have my immaturity and idols of the heart burned out of me.
Take comfort in the fact that if things are going badly then perhaps God is seeing fit to "burn" you now so that in the age to come you can stand with Christ and rule this Earth with a "rod of iron"

Rev 12:5 "...And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne..."

John 15:5-6 "...I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned..."

1 Peter 4:16-18 "...Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?"

Note the word "scarcely" used in the above scripture - Gk "Molis" (strong number G3433) which means - with difficulty, hardly, not easily, i.e. scarcely, very rarely.

If we are God's elect Nbogosian, then judgement (chastisement, scourging etc) will BEGIN with us.

Hope some of this is of help to you brother...

Bill
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ertsky
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thanks for those verses Andrew they always speak to me, thank God.

nbogsian you were saying

Quote:
 
Is a TRIAL a SUFFERING? Meaning, is the AIM of God's Trying to get us to Christ?


i see trials and suffering as a crucial component of the process the elect are undergoing as the first adam is being done away with and the second adam is being formed within them.

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

2Ti 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

2Co 1:5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.
2Co 1:6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.
2Co 1:7 And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation.

2Co 1:8 For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life:
2Co 1:9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:
2Co 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;
2Co 1:11 Ye also helping together by prayer for us, that for the gift bestowed upon us by the means of many persons thanks may be given by many on our behalf.

yes the beast (first adam) doesn't like it one little bit, (thinking of what i've been going through) but who cares, theres a plan to be fulfilled and consumated and it is was and will be fully realised, no one stands a snowball's in a blast furnace chance of altering the most minute facet of that plan, that will, that desire.

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Isa 46:11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

and also

Psa 94:16 Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? or who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity?
Psa 94:17 Unless the LORD had been my help, my soul had almost dwelt in silence.
Psa 94:18 When I said, My foot slippeth; thy mercy, O LORD, held me up.
Psa 94:19 In the multitude of my thoughts within me thy comforts delight my soul.
Psa 94:20 Shall the throne of iniquity have fellowship with thee, which frameth mischief by a law?
Psa 94:21 They gather themselves together against the soul of the righteous, and condemn the innocent blood.
Psa 94:22 But the LORD is my defence; and my God is the rock of my refuge.
Psa 94:23 And he shall bring upon them their own iniquity, and shall cut them off in their own wickedness; yea, the LORD our God shall cut them off.

so i think God is working in ALL and is working ALL, though at times we are severely tested by these things, but it is only the first adam that has anything to fear, and i think we know we would be better off without sin in the flesh.

some days and some things i wish i had never had to endure but how then would the scripture be fulfilled.

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

how are these verses when read in terms of the man of sin in us and the second adam who we endure all for

Psa 104:26 There go the ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein.
Psa 104:27 These wait all upon thee; that thou mayest give them their meat in due season.
Psa 104:28 That thou givest them they gather: thou openest thine hand, they are filled with good.
Psa 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
Psa 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
Psa 104:31 The glory of the LORD shall endure for ever: the LORD shall rejoice in his works.
Psa 104:32 He looketh on the earth, and it trembleth: he toucheth the hills, and they smoke.
Psa 104:33 I will sing unto the LORD as long as I live: I will sing praise to my God while I have my being.
Psa 104:34 My meditation of him shall be sweet: I will be glad in the LORD.
Psa 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.

let the man of sin be consumed out of the earth (my body) YES!! let the wicked be NO MORE!!

though He slay me YET WILL I TRUST HIM!

f

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
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ertsky
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i just got something!!

2Co 5:4 For indeed, being in the tabernacle, we groan, having been weighted down, inasmuch as we do not wish to be unclothed, but to be clothed, so that the mortal may be swallowed up by the life.
2Co 5:5 And the One having worked in us for this same thing is God, who also is giving us the earnest of the Spirit.

and

2Co 5:4 For indeed, being in the tabernacle, we groan, having been weighted down, inasmuch as we do not wish to be unclothed, but to be clothed, so that the mortal may be swallowed up by the life.
2Co 5:5 And the One having worked in us for this same thing is God, who also is giving us the earnest of the Spirit.

so much the more as we see the day approaching

f

Heb 10:25 not forsaking the assembling together of ourselves, as is the custom of some, but exhorting, and by so much more as you see the Day drawing near.
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nbogosian
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Thanks for the replies.

"Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it-- I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while-- yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death."
2 Co. 7:8-10

That answers all of my questions. If my sorrow is working out repentance or if my sorrow is working out death.....



"My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." (2 Cor. 12:9)
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MarkPillay
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Hello brothers and sisters in Christ

And I hear a loud voice in heaven saying, "Just now came the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brethren was cast out, who was accusing them before our God day and night." And they conquer him through the blood of the Lambkin, and through the word of their testimony, and they love not their soul, until death." Therefore, make merry, ye heavens, and those tabernacling in them! Woe to the land and the sea, for the Adversary descended to you having great fury, being aware that brief is the season that he has." And when the dragon perceived that it was cast into the earth, it persecutes the woman who brought forth the male." And given to the woman were the two wings of a large vulture, that she may be flying into the wilderness into her place, there where she is nourished a season, and seasons, and half a season, from the face of the serpent." And the serpent casts water as a river out of its mouth after the woman, that she should be carried away by its current." And the earth helps the woman, and the earth opens its mouth and swallowed the river which the dragon casts out of its mouth." And the dragon is angry with the woman, and came away to do battle with the rest of her seed, who are keeping the precepts of God and who have the testimony of Jesus." (Rev 12:10-17 CLV)

I think this answers the question perfectly, what do you guys think?

Love in Christ

Mark
For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor messengers, nor sovereignties, nor the present, nor what is impending, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, our Lord."
(Rom 8:38-39 CLV)
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