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Comparing Spiritual With Spiritual From A-z; Born again
Topic Started: Apr 1 2008, 05:21 AM (749 Views)
lrolson
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Comparing Spiritual with Spiritual From A to Z

I have long had the question in my mind as to when is the exact moment that we are considered born again. I have also long questioned....

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

as to why Paul called these Corinthian believers (babes). A babe is one that is born.

I have also long considered, is there a gestation period when we are begotten but as yet unborn?

Is it possible to make a close comparison with physical begettal, gestation, then born, then as born babes that go on to maturity, with a spiritual process that duplicates the physical? And make these comparisons from scripture?

Lets start with begettal. When is one begotten and with what?

Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

The above verse gives the answer. When we start our journey in accepting the word into our minds, this is Him begetting us, and this being His will and not ours. He impregnates us with His physical word. This is the first coming of Christ.

This begettal would mark the beginning of the process of gestation. Is there a spiritual gestation? Not long ago I learned that the number 10 in scripture signifies completion of the flesh. I also came to see that human gestation is 280 days. We have all heard that it takes nine months to make a baby. But God did not use the Popes calender. Gods calender as revealed in scripture has 28 day months. So this 280 day gestation equels 10, 28 day months. 10 months to complete the process of human gestation, or completion of the flesh.

When we as beasts suffer a deadly wound we die in type by the sword of the word. We at this point experience a begettal of the word. We as the first beast are dying by this deadly blow from the word or impregnation of His word. We then go through a gestation period in the church and are (being) born, or (being) resurrected as a worst beast. This is how Paul can call the Corinthians (babes) on milk. This is the 40 day period of judgement represented by the time of Jesus' resurrection to ascention, 40 days in the wilderness, and also Jesus' 40 day fast. This was shadowed by the rain in Noah's day, when it rained forty days and nights and then raised the ark, which was full of beasts (the body of Christ). We are (now) being raised from the dead, (the church). Then we have a ten day period from ascension to fulness at Pentecost. The beast suffers another wound unto death, which we that are Gods elect are in (now), dying daily until we die. This is marked by the receiving the spirit of His word. Another begettal of the spirit. Ten representing gestation (the completion (the end)of the flesh. We are born again babes, and at the same time in a gestation period toward fulness. Jesus is the firstborn that has totaly passed from death unto life (born). We have only received in earnest. We are dying daily by the sword as beasts. We are born babes maturing into the image of Christ and we are in a gestation period as yet unborn toward the full spiritual birth.

This is comparing spiritual with spiritual.

So in review the first begettal is the first coming. We are born of water. The water of the word. Raised from death in baptism. The first deadly wound. But the beast rises from this deadly wound. A type of being born. And becomes a babe on milk. But does not mature.

Then there is a begettal of the spirit. This is the second coming. That which is born of spirit is spirit. This is the final slaying of the beast that ends in death. Now the new man (Christ) is being resurrected (born). He now eats the meat of the word, and is past the milk.

Always in the past I have seen this doctrine as comparing spiritual with physical. Only now I see it as comparing spiritual with spiritual by the physical. And now I believe my understanding of this doctrine is far more complete than in the past.

Rick
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ertsky
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Hi Rick

Quote:
 
I have long had the question in my mind as to when is the exact moment that we are considered born again.


exact moments can be problematic, potentially disastrous

especially when you think how the Word Is Was and Will Be

so really

you are born again and you are being born again and you will be born again

i cant say i'm born again full stop

that's an error

but i can say i'm born again and i'm being born again and i will be born again

so what i mean is saying you are born again is fine as long as you know you are also being born again and will be born again

like in this verse

2Co 1:9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:
2Co 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;

so i died, i am dying and i will die

just as

i was born, i am being born and i will yet be born

i'm thinking mainly spiritually here

f

PS: what else would all those "begats" be about
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lrolson
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Frank

God uses exact moments. He uses them in the physical to show us what is in the spiritual. There is an exact moment when a begettal occurs physically. There is an exact moment when a spiritual begettel occurs. There was an exact moment when Jesus our head came out (born).

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

Physically, there was an exact day when Pentecost was to fully come.

There is an exact moment when we first pick up the word of God and begotten with His word.

Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

On an on I could go.

Yes, there is an is was will be application to all of these.

But to miss these exact moments is to miss what God has created to teach us from.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

You simply can not understand spiritual truths without the physical.

*********************
You ask- what else would all those "begats" be about?

Jesus Christ is the first and the last. And if we are Gods elect we live by every word. Each of those begats are about us living out each of those people (within)leading up to Christ. King David is in that line of "begats". We must see in ourselves every (thing) that happened to David, both positive and negative.

We do not jump from Adam straight to Christ. We must live every thing in between.

Rick


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ertsky
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Hi Rick

i'll try and express clearer what i was trying to get across when i said "exact moments can be problematic"

meaning that as soon as we associate something spiritual with an exact moment then we have placed it in the realm of space and time rather than in the spiritual realm

i'm not saying of course it doesn't ever occur in space and time but that it cannot and must not be limited to space and time, God is not finite, none of His Truth is finite, by finite i mean limited to space and time

like in this verse

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ yesterday and to-day the same, and to the ages;



and the point i was trying to get at with the "begats" was one i got through you

you were saying once how that one king would reign then he would die and the next one be born and so on over and over

i saw that as a great illustration of how you cannot limit being born again to a one time only experience.

f
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Timothy Vaughan
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Hi Rick .

I think the question Is a good one personally. We all will ask this question?

God does know the EXACT time & causes the exact TIME. Pentecost occurred

EXACTLY at 9 am during the MORNING sacrifice. According to the CARNAL LAW/MOSES LAW that GOD GAVE to HIM (God caused this) to give (speak to) the children of isreal. This is EXACT time that the BREAD of the WHEAT harvest was offered.

Acts 2 :12-15 and they were all AMAZED, and were in DOUBT, saying one to another (in thier doubful dispensations?)What MEANETH THIS? (this is within & WITHOUT me)


OTHERS (MOCKING/God is not mocked) SAID. THESE men are full of NEW WINE.(this is within & WITHOUT me) for a EXACT MOMENT
(this is the NEW wine in NEWwineskins)== (this is within me) yet imature understanding,YET PAST MOSES?? hardly


Acts 2:14 But peter (whom previosly DENIED him 3 times/GOD CAUSED THIS), STANDING UP

The rightous STAND AS BOLD AS A LION. (this is within & WITHOUT me) Prov 28:1

The dragon/Pharoh SPEAKS this way ALSO. (When) he (was) WRAPED (serpant) around PETERS HEAD. But this is the UGLY HEAD OF PRIDE

(a mans head) This IS WITHIN me & WITHOUT ME! For CHRIST is compared to a serpant!

BUT i MUST (LOOK UP) TO HIM! within & without!

Acts 2:14 WITH the ELEVEN,(this is the first & the last of the 12) LIFTED UP HIS VOICE (LIKE A RAMS HORN) ye (men/sinful) of JUDEA , ALL YE THAT DWELL (tabernacle in tents of wickedness)
at JERUSALEM (bondwoman), BE THIS KNOWN TO YOU, AND HEARKEN (you dull of hearing/the EVEN the law of moses) MY WORDS (CHRISTS WORDS).

Acts 2:15 For THESE that speak in an (UNKNOWN TOUNGE/NOT DEVILISH GIBBERISH/BUT A NEW TOUNGE) HEARD in thier OWN LANGUAGE

ARE NOT DRUNKEN (on moses wine), AS YE (SUPPOSE) seeing it is the (3RD HOUR/9am )of the DAY (morning sacrifice/num 28:1-7/Num 26-31/lev 23:9-22) imature in christ still/YET GATHERED
IN HIS BARN/MORE TO COME! All & all HAS NOT YET HAPPENED!

12 hrs of night PAST (moses)

ARE THIER NOT 12 hrs in a DAY?? (CHRIST) ( 9 MORE HORS OF JUDGEMENT) children (still imature) of the DAY AND NOT OF THE NIGHT?(moses/law)Jn 11:9??

YES the HOUR IS COMING! AND (NOW) IS!(WHEN)???????? THE DEAD SHALL (HEAR) the voice (trumpet) of the SON OF GOD: AND THEY THAT (HEAR) SHALL LIVE. jn 5:25

The conclusion of the MATTER?????????????????? It is NOT for you to KNOW the TIMES or SEASONS (FEASTS OF THE LORD/jude12), WHICH the FATHER(ONLY 1 TRUE GOD/Mt 24:36) hath PUT in his (OWN) POWER! ACTS1:7/Mt 24;36

BUT (KNOW THIS), that if the (GOODMAN/Only GOD IS GOOD/resist him not) of the HOUSE (body of christ/which TEMPLE you ARE) HAD KNOWN in WHAT WATCH (are we not watchman/Ez 3:17/mt 26:41/ PLEASE READ ALL OF YOU ==mk 13:17-44) Those with CHILD??Travail??AFFLICTION??

This IS ME (NOW) I travail in BIRTH till CHRIST be formed in the BODY (this is in EARNEST ONLY)

This EARTH (WITHIN ME me & WITHOUT ME)) A WOMAN/WAITING IN AFFLICTION (BIRTH PAINS)

(FOR) the MAINIFESTATION OF THE SONS OF GOD! NEW BIRTH! YET IT IS (NOW) the HEAD has ALREADY CAME forth BUT the all in all (feet are still in the BONDWOMAN!)

WHO IS IN CONTROL(SOVERIGN?I speak as a FOOL) OF THIS MY BROTHERS?

ECC 11:5 As thou KNOWEST NOT what is in the WAY of the SPIRIT, NOR (HOW) the BONES

(i may tell all my bones/BONES OF MY BONES) do GROW in the WOMB (be not barren/you FRUITFUL WOMB))

OF HER THAT IS WITH CHILD/Mk13:17

EVEN SO THOU KNOWEST NOT ALL THE WORKS OF GOD (HOW CAN WE IN THIS FLESH??) (WHO MAKETH ALL) ALL & ALL 1 cor 15:19-28

PREGNANT WOMEN SHOULD NOT DRINK WINE/nether do priests IN the tabernacle (WE are first the baptist)Bondwoman/gen 48:7/mt 2:18

Then the FREE

I (died) giving BIRTH to BENJIMAN (elect) never the LESS I LIVE! The FREEWOMAN

You that hath an EAR let them hear my CRY in birth! yet will i forget (man) all my PAIN

WHEN HE IS BORN. 1 jn 3:1-3/

I am he 1 cor 15:1-8

timothy


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lrolson
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Frank

I appreciate what you are saying.

But, we have strayed from the point of the post. The focal point of the post is to show how to compare spiritual with spiritual applied to the doctrine of born again.

Never before has this been brought out. We have always compared spiritual with physical in explaining the doctrine of born again.

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

This is the principle laid down by inspired scripture and this is key to understanding.

The natural man can not grasp this.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

It is ONLY the mind of Christ that can understand this.

We have always looked at born again as did Nicodemus. He thought Jesus meant just one more birth after the physical birth. But when we compare spiritual with spiritual we see there are two spiritual births. And the only way to understand these two spiritual births is from the physical patern. In the past I only saw one spiritual birth. Now I clearly see two. We have always skipped over the first spiritual birth. And tried to go straight to the second. Missing this first spiritual birth that produces the child of the devil, means missing what Paul meant by... you are of your father the devil.

And I am not speaking of many births as you are. I hope you go back to the post and see these two spiritual births.

Stay with me on this Frank, you will be glad you did.

Rick
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Timothy Vaughan
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Dear Brothers,

I have meditated on this principle? alfa & omega a to z?

Do we Know the exact TIME (observation) of our NEW birth.

First the negative?

The Clay LIKES (vainity/law of moses/dung) to tell the POTTER (creator) what to do! And (WHEN TO DO IT)

This is NATURAL.roms 9:20 (this is WITHIN me & WITHOUT ME)


He loves siting in his place. 2 thess 2:4-5

Yet he sits (he LOVES SLUMBER /does not (yet) stand 1 cor 10 :12)at his feet.

For his SEED is corruptable.(THIS IS WITHIN ME & WITHOUT ME)= 1 jn 1:8-10

To this i make my confession! james 5;9-20

We will always wondering WHICH one(within me & without) me is the GREATEST. 1 cor 3:7/mt 26;37-46/jn 21:20-23/Mt 18;1-5/ mk 9;34-35/lk 9:46-50/lk 22:21-27

Perhaps it is Abel? or enoch? Perhaps Noah? Or abraham? Or one of his sons?

or better yet the Baptist? I speak as a fool!

Better yet lets go to the NEW birth? Perhaps it is peter?(within me)?Acts 15;7? surely it must be? 1 cor 15:5/ fervent in prayer? acts 10:10-26 PERHAPS NOT

1 cor 1:12

Well Sure Perhaps it must be a second witness? JAMES the ELDER the LORD'S brother.lets make him a bishop (overseer) of the (jerusalem) church?1 cor 15:7/ acts 15:13-24

Jebus? 1 chron 11;4 surely he has all AUTHORITY THERE?Didn't the LORD place his (NAME) THERE? james?

Isnt that the PLACE of SACRIFICE? 1 kings 12:27/ IS he not an Eloihm (judge/god)there?2 chon 6:6 Is this not the city of the KING?



the GREAT JAMES?? Surely he is the messenger of the covenant? is he not?JAMES 3:1

Perhaps NOT.

BUT SURELY PAUL? Did he not recieve DIRECT COMMUNICATION?Acts 26;15-20?


THE VISION & REVELATION in ARABIA?Gal 1;14-24

One BORN out of DUE TIME?1 cor 15:7-10

an (UNTIMELY) BIRTH Perhaps. Ecc 6;3/job6:3?ps 58;8? WOW! HE SAW A GREAT LIGHT! What a revelation? Things THAT COULD NOT (UNLAWFUL) EVEN BE UTTER BY A MORTAL TOUNGE?

The PROCESS OF THE THIRD HEAVEN! 2 cor 12:1-11

Even PETER & JAMES Know SOMETHING IS UP with him? acts 15:1-6/Gal 2;9

EVEN THE DEMONS KNOW HIM BY NAME! ACTS 19:11-16?

TRULY it MUST be HIM? ? 1 tim 1:15? Surely he has overcome EVERY OBSTACLE?
Gal 4:1-14

PERHAPS NOT acts 16:3/Perhaps the LAW (CHRIST)CAME TO HUMBLE HIM? to TESTIFY
AGAINST HIM 3 times? A THORN in the FLESH? to buffet him? The LAW (of moses) in his members (BODY (FLESH)OF CHRIST? still not PERFECTED made MATURE?Roms 7:1-25

these men from james? HYPOCRITES? CREPT IN UNAWARE? TO (SPY OUT) HIS LIBERTY in the BODY(LAND) of CHRIST

WARING AGAINST CHRIST? Yet he remained (faithful) TILL THE END. telling me to NOT LOOSE HEART4;1-22

(Christ in him) set me at LlIBERTY.heb13:23/ though i was circumsised by him (with hands) Beause of the JEWS in those Quarters.ALL THINGS WORK FOR GOOD (regardless of our disobiedent flesh)

Now we come to the APOSTLE of LOVE. (THE REVELATION OF SAINT JOHN < THE DEVINE???

(SURELY HE KNOWS ALL THINGS BY NOW?) Is this not the last revelation? PAUL IS DEAD

Cast out/forsaken by the 7 in asia. (yet continues/STEDFAST) to LOVE HIS ENEMIES, just like PAUL?
Suffering in GREAT TRIBULATION ON PATMOS?Rev 1:9

WHY?? FOR THE( WORD) OF GOD !AND THE (TESTIMONY) OF JESUS CHRIST

perhaps HE IS THE MAN/That SPEAKS/perhaps there is no other? Even PETER was JEALOUS of him? Jn 21:20-25

Always asking his (christ's)cousin to speak to him He was a FASTER runner you know? THOUGH THEY RUN (TOGETHER) Jn 20;3-4

perhaps peter forgot this admonition?Zec 9:11-12

YA ENVY is a rotteness to (MY) bones.Prov 15:30 My brother james (within me) knew this! james 4:5-6

Yes all these died in FAITH!Awaiting US
all were OLD MEN,(sinful men) Waited A long time to understand. Yet GOD is faithful To the NEW MAN/old things are PAST/BEHOLD all things ARE NEW
come up hither

he speaks Only buy this? heb 1;2 In my LAST DAYS

All these men DIED, YET shall they be CHANGED

All else is vainy,& vextation of spirit of God /quench it NOT.

CHRIST IS NOT DEVIDED/He is extemely patienet /NONE shall be lost, BUT the SON OF PERDITION. all of us are the son of perdition

We SHALL ALL BE SAVED, Yes we wait Roms 8:18-28

Let none that (wait) on thee be ashamed! For (i) do not know the day & hour Other it BEING NOW!Jn 5;25 now is (A ) DAY of salvation. it is not the only day. Others (within us & without us) will believe.

That is my fathers BUSINESS.Acts 1:7/mk 13:32 but I must be up to his business

but we are SLOW of heart to believe.The LORD knows WHO are his. I do not KNOW that yet. nor do i presume to act presumptuous (though i have not been perfected in this) the time is NOW

2 Peter 1-16 i'm just a dumb ass/that he rides into That city. He TRIED the reigns I do NOT.jer 17:10 He is the POTTER .(I AM that I AM) the CLAY. as i professed at the conference in INDY

Though i raced thier. their is ONLY (one) who recieves a CROWN .1 cor 9:20-27

THAT (belongs) IS THE LORD !REV 4:9-11

BUT I KEEP MY BODY UNDER SUBJECTION:LEST THAT BY ANY MEANS,(WHEN) I HAVE PEACHED TO OTHERS<I MYSELF SHOULD BE A (CASTAWAY)

though i speak (REBUKE).I am (dumb) in his house.Isa 53:7



timothy

1 tim 3:16/ ecc 11:5









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Timothy Vaughan
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Brothers & sisters,

I thought this tread this (makes) more sence to us after what my brothers spoke on in dallas,tx.

Thank you for your service to your (own body).

For no man ever yet (hated his own flesh) but nourished and (CHERISHEth it), EVEN AS THE LORD THE CHURCH: ep 5;28-29

For like mike said : The hands(of GOD) have no problems Washing those dirty feet.jn 13:1-16
Us (his wife the/PRIME RIB/EVE)with the WORD OF LIFE.

WITH THE WATER OF THE WORD (regeneration) ep 5:26/ titus 3;5/gen 18:4/lev 16:4/acts 22;16/heb 10;22/1 tim 5:10/REV 1:5.

ITS ALL A WASH!Just washing our dirty feet CLEANS our OWN HANDS!James 4:7-12 BLESSED BE THE LORD!

Living by EVERY WORD.We understand that we first must die (then) the judgement! (washing)

This was DONE (AFTER) THE SACRIFICE (WAS) >>DEAD <<< heb 10:22/ rev 1:18/

EXODUS 29:10-17

THANK YOU FOR WASHING THE (INWARDS) you son's of Aaron (in type)

For preparing yourselves as a (LIVING) SACRIFICE!roms 12:1/rev 1:18

by washing the BODY! WITH THE WORD OF LIFE!

Timothy
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