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Was Jesus Christ created?; Question
Topic Started: Jun 28 2008, 08:31 AM (1,456 Views)
Roy Monis
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Hi! All

I'm a Newbie just finding my way around. Can someone help with this question?

Peace!

RoyUK
Edited by lrolson, Jun 30 2008, 08:18 PM.
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lrolson
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Roy

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

This verse states that Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God. Jesus is the faithful and true witness.

In type and shadow Eve came out of Adam, showing Christ came out of God.

Rick
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Roy Monis
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Hi!

Thank you for your response. Finding out how to get started was quite something, but we're here at last, thank God.

Yes I understand that Eve came out of Adam and that Jesus Christ came out of God. What I want to know is whether He was created because both Adam and Eve the shadows were created. Sorry to be such a bore. But was deity bestowed on Him by the Father or was He always with the Father as One from the very beginning. “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

I accept that all creation began with Him. He did the creating, but before He started His work of creation He must have been with the Father because of the US and OUR words in Genesis. "Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;" (Gen.!:26). What I am asking is, was He created by the Father for that specific purpose of creation or was He always an inherent part of the Father.

I hope you can follow what I'm trying to find out as there are so many schools of thought on this which makes it very confusing. I'm searching for the truth from you, because from Mike's other teachings I believe that the truth is here.

Peace!

Roy UK
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Timothy Vaughan
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Hi Roy,

Welcome! Yes Jesus Christ HE IS WAS & WILL ALWAYS BE our beginning and end (finisher) of our faith.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Beginning MEANS==
H7225
øàùÑéú
rê'shîyth
ray-sheeth'
From the same as H7218; the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.


He is the FIRST FRUIT/WAVE SHEAF (the BEST) principle THING in US!

GLORY TO GOD!

For WISDOM (is) (was) And (will be )the PRINCIPLE THING! being FORMED in us.

For CHRIST (is) the PRINCIPLE thing! He (is) WISDOM.

Pro 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom

I will GLORY (wave him up & down & side to side) IN CHRIST JESUS MY LORD!

He is the GIFT of WISDOM. the FIRST FRUIT OF THE LAND!, the principle THING!




The ONLY WISE GOD forms (creates) Everything by WISDOM= (christ in us)
A to z. He is a gift of of the ONE TRUE WISE GOD!

Like my brother RICK said.She was FORMED from HIM.Eve from ADAM

She is my PRIME RIB!MEAT every DAY.Eat of this
(christ)


His first creation!


Pro 8:1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?
Pro 8:2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
Pro 8:3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
Pro 8:4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.
Pro 8:5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
Pro 8:6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.
Pro 8:7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
Pro 8:8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
Pro 8:9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.
Pro 8:10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold. (BABYLON)
Pro 8:11 For wisdom is better than rubies;(babylon) and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
Pro 8:12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
Pro 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogance, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Pro 8:14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.
Pro 8:15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.
Pro 8:16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.
Pro 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
Pro 8:18 Riches and honor are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness. (GOD'S GOLD/TREASURE IN HEAVEN)
Pro 8:19 My fruit (firstfruit/love)is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.
Pro 8:20 I lead in the way of righteousness,(CHRIST IS THE WAY) in the midst of the paths of judgment:
Pro 8:21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.
Pro 8:22 The LORD(one TRUE GOD) possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Pro 8:23 (I was ) (WISDOM)set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Pro 8:24 When there were no depths, (I was )brought forth; when there were (no fountains abounding with water.)gen1;2
Pro 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
Pro 8:26 While as yet he (ONE TRUE GOD)had not made the earth,nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
Pro 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was (she)there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Pro 8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
Pro 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Pro 8:30 Then I was by him,(one true GOD/not her) as (one) brought up with him): and (I was) daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
Pro 8:31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men. (you & I)
Pro 8:32 Now therefore hearken unto me(CHRIST), O ye children:(you & I) for blessed are they that keep my ways. (WISDOM)
Pro 8:33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
Pro 8:34 Blessed is the man that heareth me,(he that hath an ear) watching(SEEING SPIRITUALLY) daily at my gates,(WISDOM) waiting at the posts(PILLARS) of my doors. (GOSPEL)
Pro 8:35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favor of the LORD.
Pro 8:36 But he that sinneth against me (WISDOM)wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.





His ONLY son being FORMED in us.This comes not by observation.(kingdom of GOD)

Christ is (WISDOM/SHE) he is SERVANT TO his (HEAD) FATHER who created him& her.

He is the BEGINNING of the CREATION (of GOD) his FATHER

ALL THINGS (WERE/was) MADE by (CHRIST).By authority of his GOD.

Col 1:15 Who (is) the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell;

Now his father,HEAD,& GOD Was never created. He has no beginning & no END. There is only (ONE TRUE GOD)

Not three,Trinity

May the LORD (wisdom/CHRIST) reveal the TRUTH of his GOD to you.

for they are ONE GOD.as a man & woman are ONE BODY

But the man is the HEAD.not the woman. christ has a HEAD.

I have a head it is CHRIST. my wife (carnally speaking) has a head.

It is me.

This is a GREAT mystery Concerning CHRIST & HIS BRIDE/WIFE.

But is Wife is ONE with him & his HEAD.

They ARE ONE BODY/they SPEAK THE SAME THINGS.

That (part )of us that doesn't isn't his BODY.it is lawlessness.

It MUST DIE DAILY

It is a Kingdom divided AGAINST its self.it LOVES DEATH. It loves not GOD.(one TRUE GOD)

It does not 9keep his commands

Thats why we do not PRAY for the WORLD (

body of sin) it is being BURNT out side of the GATE.IT is the wood Offering WITHOUT GOD's GOLD.It is a SIN & A tresspass offering

Within us/ it despises (wisdom) Christ.(it must DIE)

It is our BEAST (adam) In ADAM ALL DIE!it is an beast (of flesh)
but out of its ruins(destruction)/dishonour= THIS IS THE WILL OF GOD

A new temple is BEING built without hands/It is a Clean beast/(MADE TO EAT)a new vessel/ made UNTO HONOR
the Stone (chip off the old BLOCK) of the MOUNTAIN/the FAITH of the mustard SEED

God has COME in the FLESH (by CHRIST) to SHOW (REVEAL) his SON IN US

By HIS WORD (of WISDOM)

It is OUR Beginning!(he IS OUR beginning /THERE IS NO OTHER NAME in which to be SAVED!

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell;


Now of his father (my FATHER) It is REVEALED by CHRIST ONLY!

If you have any questions concerning him WE MUST go to the REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST (the WORD OF GOD)

Genesis to revelation ALL & ALL!

IT is WISDOM (christ in you the HOPE of glory)

It is a pleasure to share a peace offering (christ with you)

I pray you despise not my meat. (food for you)

it is my daily BREAD (wave sheaf/firstfruit/hidden manna)

HE is the LAMB OF GOD (within me) to TAKE AWAY the SIN of the WORLD (church/babylon)

It (word /wisdom)must be eaten or we have no LIFE (within us)

GLORY TO GOD ALONE!

timothy














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Redlettervoice
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Some things to contemplate on this:

Revelation 1

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and

the first begotten of the dead,

and the prince of the kings of the earth.

Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,




Psalms 2:7 -
I will declare the decree:
the LORD hath said unto me,

Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Acts 13:33 -
God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm,

Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.


Hebrews 1:5 -
For unto which of the angels said he at any time,

Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?

And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?


Realizing that "for suffering" Jesus was made in the likeness of man, thereby being at that time, "lower than the angels" and considering the truth that He was
raised "Higher than the angels" ................when was He "begotten" and given the Name that his Higher than angels?.............not to be the son of man "suffering" but declared to "be"
the SON, Higher than the angels, with angels and authorities being subject to HIM!

Jesus was the "first begotten" as Revelations 1 declares.

Revelations 3
declares Him to be the first "and" the last

And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Revelation 21:6 -
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.


So who was that in between one that suffered?
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Timothy Vaughan
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I will bless his NAME o my soul,

In the great congregation i will profess you before many witnesses.

Mar 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mar 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Mar 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

Mar 12:33 And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

Mar 12:34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

We all are SCRIBES, WE LIVE BY EVERY WORD.(at our appointed TIME/law)

Christ WAS SPEAKING (reading it on the TABLE OF HIS HEART)THE LAW!

This WAS the DUTY of a HIGH PRIEST & SCRIBE!

I AM THAT I AM EZRAfrom Babylon

Ezr 7:6 This Ezra went up ; and he was a ready scribe in the law of Moses, which the LORD God of Israel had given: and the king granted him all his request, according to the hand of the LORD his God upon him.
Ezr 7:7 And there went up some of the children of Israel, and of the priests, and the Levites, and the singers, and the porters, and the Nethinims, unto Jerusalem, in the seventh year of Artaxerxes the king.
Ezr 7:8 And he came to Jerusalem in the fifth month, (Today is the first day of the Chasening moon5th moon//july 2nd/I ESTEEM ALL DAYS ALIKE/YET I REGARD IT NOT/YET I DO REGARD IT UNTO THE LORD/rom14:1-9)which was in the seventh year of the king.

IT is a PROCESS! of KNOWING & understanding & DOING the WILL OF GOD(wisdom/christ/word)=conversion is CHRIST

Ezr 7:9 For upon the first day of the first month began he to go up from Babylon,(abib 1/ex12:1-2)=CHRIST IS THE BEGINNING) and on the first day of the fifth month came he to Jerusalem, according to the good hand of his God upon him. (only the one true GOD IS GOOD)

We MUST LIVE BY EVERY WORD OF GOD!


Ezr 7:10 For Ezra had prepared his heart to seek the law of the LORD, and to do it, and to teach in Israel statutes and judgments.

Ezr 7:11 Now this is the copy of the letter that the king Artaxerxes gave unto Ezra the priest, the scribe, even a scribe of the words of the commandments of the LORD, and of his statutes to Israel.

Ezr 7:12 Artaxerxes, king of kings,(we must LIVE BY EVERY WORD) unto Ezra the priest, a scribe of the law of the God of heaven, perfect peace, and at such a time.

Ezr 7:13 I make a decree,(king of kings/AS HE IS SO ARE WE IN THIS WORLD/CHURCH) that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.

GOD IS SOVERIGN (CAUSES US TO DO HIS WILL!) I CAN DO NOTHING OF MYSELF!


Ezr 7:14 Forasmuch as thou art sent of the king,(JOHN 20:21/JOHN 17: and of his seven counselors(7spirits before his THRONE/rev 1;4), to inquire concerning Judah and Jerusalem,(zec 8/SECOND TEMPLE BUILT) according to the law of thy God which is in thine hand;



IT IS WRITTEN

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Deu 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

ONLY GOD CAN WRITE THIS ON OUR TABLE OF THE HEART

Jer 31:28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.
Jer 31:29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
Jer 31:30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my peopleIn ORDER to be understood

THERE, (HEART) it MUST be WRITTEN THERE

IT IS WRITTEN/How many times does my lord say this?

By the (ONE)FINGER (CHRIST) of GOD.Not 10 but 1 FINGER. GOD IS LOVE/COMMAND BY HIS FINGER (CHRIST)

Exo 8:19 Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God:(CHRIST) and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

Who harden pharohs (my heart)heart by his finger?roms9:15-23

Exo 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, TABLES of stone, written with the finger of God (heart of stone NOT FLESH)

This is,WAS ,and will beCHRIST who DID this!He was APPOINTED BY HIS GOD!

This IS his SPIRIT! SENT FORTH IN GLORY

Luk 11:20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon

you.

Perhaps we are GOD'S little finger?


Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.





This happens at our APPOINTED TIME (by GOD'S decree)

Yes this is LIFE.I make my confession!

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Yes in Christ shall ALL fullness DWELL (tabernacle)

He is our head & GOD is his.It is ONE BODY,

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.


timothy


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Roy Monis
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Timothy Vaughan
Jul 1 2008, 11:36 AM
Hi Roy,

Welcome! Yes Jesus Christ HE IS WAS & WILL ALWAYS BE our beginning and end (finisher) of our faith.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Beginning MEANS==
H7225
øàùÑéú
rê'shîyth
ray-sheeth'
From the same as H7218; the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.


He is the FIRST FRUIT/WAVE SHEAF (the BEST) principle THING in US!

GLORY TO GOD!

For WISDOM (is) (was) And (will be )the PRINCIPLE THING! being FORMED in us.

For CHRIST (is) the PRINCIPLE thing! He (is) WISDOM.

Pro 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom

I will GLORY (wave him up & down & side to side) IN CHRIST JESUS MY LORD!

He is the GIFT of WISDOM. the FIRST FRUIT OF THE LAND!, the principle THING!




The ONLY WISE GOD forms (creates) Everything by WISDOM= (christ in us)
A to z. He is a gift of of the ONE TRUE WISE GOD!

Like my brother RICK said.She was FORMED from HIM.Eve from ADAM

She is my PRIME RIB!MEAT every DAY.Eat of this
(christ)


His first creation!


Pro 8:1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?
Pro 8:2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
Pro 8:3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
Pro 8:4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.
Pro 8:5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
Pro 8:6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.
Pro 8:7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
Pro 8:8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
Pro 8:9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.
Pro 8:10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold. (BABYLON)
Pro 8:11 For wisdom is better than rubies;(babylon) and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
Pro 8:12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
Pro 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogance, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Pro 8:14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.
Pro 8:15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.
Pro 8:16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.
Pro 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
Pro 8:18 Riches and honor are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness. (GOD'S GOLD/TREASURE IN HEAVEN)
Pro 8:19 My fruit (firstfruit/love)is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.
Pro 8:20 I lead in the way of righteousness,(CHRIST IS THE WAY) in the midst of the paths of judgment:
Pro 8:21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.
Pro 8:22 The LORD(one TRUE GOD) possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Pro 8:23 (I was ) (WISDOM)set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Pro 8:24 When there were no depths, (I was )brought forth; when there were (no fountains abounding with water.)gen1;2
Pro 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
Pro 8:26 While as yet he (ONE TRUE GOD)had not made the earth,nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
Pro 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was (she)there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Pro 8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
Pro 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Pro 8:30 Then I was by him,(one true GOD/not her) as (one) brought up with him): and (I was) daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
Pro 8:31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men. (you & I)
Pro 8:32 Now therefore hearken unto me(CHRIST), O ye children:(you & I) for blessed are they that keep my ways. (WISDOM)
Pro 8:33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
Pro 8:34 Blessed is the man that heareth me,(he that hath an ear) watching(SEEING SPIRITUALLY) daily at my gates,(WISDOM) waiting at the posts(PILLARS) of my doors. (GOSPEL)
Pro 8:35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favor of the LORD.
Pro 8:36 But he that sinneth against me (WISDOM)wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.





His ONLY son being FORMED in us.This comes not by observation.(kingdom of GOD)

Christ is (WISDOM/SHE) he is SERVANT TO his (HEAD) FATHER who created him& her.

He is the BEGINNING of the CREATION (of GOD) his FATHER

ALL THINGS (WERE/was) MADE by (CHRIST).By authority of his GOD.

Col 1:15 Who (is) the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell;

Now his father,HEAD,& GOD Was never created. He has no beginning & no END. There is only (ONE TRUE GOD)

Not three,Trinity

May the LORD (wisdom/CHRIST) reveal the TRUTH of his GOD to you.

for they are ONE GOD.as a man & woman are ONE BODY

But the man is the HEAD.not the woman. christ has a HEAD.

I have a head it is CHRIST. my wife (carnally speaking) has a head.

It is me.

This is a GREAT mystery Concerning CHRIST & HIS BRIDE/WIFE.

But is Wife is ONE with him & his HEAD.

They ARE ONE BODY/they SPEAK THE SAME THINGS.

That (part )of us that doesn't isn't his BODY.it is lawlessness.

It MUST DIE DAILY

It is a Kingdom divided AGAINST its self.it LOVES DEATH. It loves not GOD.(one TRUE GOD)

It does not 9keep his commands

Thats why we do not PRAY for the WORLD (

body of sin) it is being BURNT out side of the GATE.IT is the wood Offering WITHOUT GOD's GOLD.It is a SIN & A tresspass offering

Within us/ it despises (wisdom) Christ.(it must DIE)

It is our BEAST (adam) In ADAM ALL DIE!it is an beast (of flesh)
but out of its ruins(destruction)/dishonour= THIS IS THE WILL OF GOD

A new temple is BEING built without hands/It is a Clean beast/(MADE TO EAT)a new vessel/ made UNTO HONOR
the Stone (chip off the old BLOCK) of the MOUNTAIN/the FAITH of the mustard SEED

God has COME in the FLESH (by CHRIST) to SHOW (REVEAL) his SON IN US

By HIS WORD (of WISDOM)

It is OUR Beginning!(he IS OUR beginning /THERE IS NO OTHER NAME in which to be SAVED!

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell;


Now of his father (my FATHER) It is REVEALED by CHRIST ONLY!

If you have any questions concerning him WE MUST go to the REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST (the WORD OF GOD)

Genesis to revelation ALL & ALL!

IT is WISDOM (christ in you the HOPE of glory)

It is a pleasure to share a peace offering (christ with you)

I pray you despise not my meat. (food for you)

it is my daily BREAD (wave sheaf/firstfruit/hidden manna)

HE is the LAMB OF GOD (within me) to TAKE AWAY the SIN of the WORLD (church/babylon)

It (word /wisdom)must be eaten or we have no LIFE (within us)

GLORY TO GOD ALONE!

timothy














Hi! Timothy

Thank you for your response.

I fully appreciate what you're saying but it still leaves me a bit confused. There is no question about the trinity, I just don't believe in it. It is the relationship between Father and Son that I'm on about.

Prov. 8 tells me that Jesus Christ is Wisdom/Prudence and it goes on to say that the Lord possessed Him in the beginning of His way before His works of old. Which means that Wisdom is an integral part of the Lord.
Now you agree that Christ is (Wisdom/SHE) He is SERVANT to His (HEAD) His FATHER who created him/her.

I know that Christ created him/her which refers to Adam/Eve, but it doesn't tell me what Prov.8 appears to be telling me that Christ was with the Father for as long as the Father existed which is eternal. Which can only mean that He was not created but was in the bosom of the Father the ONE GOD; God being a family name, as we aspire to be part of at His coming.

That was my question. Not the trinity, not who created the heavens and earth, but who if any one, created Christ? If the Father created Christ then before Christ the Father would be left without His most essential ingredient which is Wisdom/Prudence.

I hope you can follow what I'm trying to say, because it's difficult to put into words.

Peace! Posted Image

Roy
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lrolson
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Roy

[God] there is only one!

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

"of whom are (all) things" including wisdom!

One Lord (by) whom are all things!

God created Jesus Christ first.

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

God had wisdom before he created Jesus. How could you create without wisdom?

God has given all He has to His son Jesus. (including wisdom)

Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Now, (we) are (being) created in His image.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

We are being given wisdom through Christ (the word). Jesus is the word.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Jesus existed before He was born of Mary.

Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Jesus died. So He is not eternal.

Deu 33:27 The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them.

Hope this helps!

Rick
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Roy Monis
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Hi! Rick

Now that's the answer I was looking for. Jesus Christ was created. The Father initially did the work of creation by creating Jesus Christ and bestowing Him with Wisdom. So Jesus Christ who created the heavens and earth was not the only Creator, He was only doing His Father's will. So when, why and how did He become God?

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Roy UK

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Timothy Vaughan
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Hi Roy,

I was once where you are. It is VERY important we do not ADD to God's word (CHRIST)OR LEAVE out one scripture .

Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish aught from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Deu 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Pro 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


Roy this is not a question .IF we will DO this.I SAY WE ALL DO THIS (in the BEGINNING/christ)

WE all LIVE these words.Even to this DAY.

This is WHAT THE BEAST DOES.

SIN is the transgession of the LAW(of GOD), what EVER is not of FAITH (of GOD) is SIN, HE that KNOWS to DO GOOD (only GOD is GOOD)
and DOES it NOT ,to (him) it is SIN.

Tell me Roy do you know anyone that DOES not DO these 3 things (process) ever.BESIDES GOD & HIS SON?

And i will show you a MAN without sin. A man that does not add or take away from his words?

1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (BEWARE of the decietfulness of sin)
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. the ONLY man i know that DOES not do this

But after we DO it.we do not realise it.Till (christ /WORD/SCRIPTURE) shows us.

The ELECT KNOW that they do these things.Because they KNOW the word (christ). They Stop denying christ. And there is NO occasion of stumbling over the word. The STONE the BUILDERS REJECTED.

BECAUSE they SEE THEMSELVES/living by EVERY (WORD)= (TREEof the KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD & EVIL) THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.

CHRIST & his CHRIST are the MOUTH of GOD= (one BODY)

GOD is ONE BODY NOT TWO, three or four. But there are MANY members of ONE body. how many blood cells do you have?Are they part of your body?

But FLESH & BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD. The kingdom of GOD is WITHIN YOU.

IT is spiritual not CARNAL thing. The WORD IS SPIRIT, Yet he exist in EARTHEN vessels of CLAY/FLESH & BLOOD IS SIN

It is a BODY OF SIN/ It is seperated from GOD.IT IS NOT GOOD. it only WORKS toward SOMETHING ELSE that IS GOOD/IT MUST DIE

You & i have a PROMISE (earnest) of something BETTER. the FULLNESS IS CHRIST. As long as their is FLESH there IS NO FULLNESS.

The priest (christ)must circumsise this FLESH (cut it off)! Without hands (flesh) by the FLINTSTONE (sharp KNIFE/WORD OF GOD)

A SECOND TIME But we have to COME out of the WILDERNESS of SIN & enter INTO the PROMISES (sure WORD/CHRIST/LAND/BODY OF GOD)

Jos 5:2 At that time the LORD said unto Joshua, Make thee sharp knives(we collectivly are THE WORD of GOD /WE ARE ONE), and circumcise again the children of Israel the second time.
Jos 5:3 And Joshua(christ) made him sharp knives, and circumcised (without hands)the children of Israel at the hill of the foreskins. (babylon)


This can ONLY BE DONE BY CHRIST.(joshua/JESUSBy his instruction FROM HIS GOD) the carnal manJESUS/ joshua CAN NOT POSSIBLY DO THIS! Only then can we rest from our SINS (works)And enter into his REST (sabbath) and DO HIS WORKS ON THE SABBATH (day)

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, Today, after so long a time; as it is said, Today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. (NOW)
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works,(sin) as God did from his. (works of old) making us
Heb 4:11 Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God (circumsision made without HANDS/Flintstone)is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Which IS NOW 24/7 TODAY IS THE DAY OF THE LORD (everyday is) I have entered into his REST (sabbath)

There is NO rest from sin (in this present EVIL world). There are no coffee breaks.Till i die (man of sin)I will FIGHT with his SWORD

Killing this man (timothy vaughan)I die daily And will be cutting him (removing the FLESH)with SHARP knives (word of GOD is US)

AS HE IS SO ARE WE IN (THIS WORLD)

YES CHRIST (the KINGDOM OF GOD) DOES THIS! HE is (christ)the FULLNESS(spirit of GOD).I am what is left behind (sin is CUT OFF/tresspass offering)

sufferings till OBIEDIENCE to his WORD comes (fullness)WHICH IS NOT YET in me.Therfore i fight with a SWORD



This is IMPOSSIBLE WITH MEN! BUT ALL THINGS (of GOD) are possible with GOD .



But KNOW this CHRIST IS NOT FINISHED in me yet.HE still summits to his HEAD.(GOD)FOR ME.But he that BEGUN a GOOD work in me WILL finsh it.(in this DAY)

GOD'S (ONE TRUE GOD)INSTRUMENT of RIGHTOUSNESS (the HOPE OF GLORY) (is christ in me)

But MAKE no mistake (sin ) about it HE WAS CREATED!As Rick spoke (word of GOD)

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

though in the FORM of GOD/Christ is NOT the head of GOD.He is his SLAVE (servant only DOING & SAYING HIS WORD)

NOT HIS OWN WILL OR WORDS!That is HOW he became a SON (obeidience)

His GOD CAUSED IT TO BE!

The FATHER & GOD OF CHRIST HAS NO BEGINNING.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Christ OBEYS & WORSHIPS HIM ONLY!

Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

I will leave this passage of SCRIPTURE to chew the cud on (meditate)

It IS THE GOD OF CHRIST! Who is the KING OF KINGS? HE who comes in the NAME OF GOD (ONE TRUE GOD)

He does NOT come in his OWN NAME (timothy vaughan/flesh)

1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
1Ti 6:13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen.

Tell me did christ come in his own name? OR in THE NAMEof his FATHER?Is he the mountain or the rock?stone the BUILDERS rejected?

WHAT NAME IS~ IT IS WRITTEN?KING OF KINGS?LORD of LORDS? DOES JESUS HAVE A LORD & GOD
Does he have a HEAD?

Where is it WRITTEN? ON HIS BODY?Where IS TRUTH WRITTENep 6;14?

What is the TRUTH?

Does he COME in his NAME?

Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Tell me does Jesus have a KING & LORD?Does jesus WORSHIP HIM? Does the SON of david have a LORD? Is it the SAME NAME (one GOD)
Is jesus THE ONE TRUE GOD?Or is he his SON?

Pro 30:3 I neither learned wisdom, nor have the knowledge of the holy.
Pro 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if if thou canst tell?
Pro 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield (OF FAITH)unto them that put their trust in him.
Pro 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Timothy YOUR BROTHER

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JasonM
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Roy Monis
Jul 4 2008, 12:33 PM
"So when, why and how did He become God?"


Hi Roy,

Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the Scripture cannot be broken;
Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Luk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

We are gods but we can do nothing of ourselves for Christ is our head:
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body.

Christ is the Son of God but can do nothing of his own for the Father is the head of Christ:
Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Hope this helps
jason
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lrolson
Jul 4 2008, 08:54 AM
Roy

[God] there is only one!

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

"of whom are (all) things" including wisdom!

One Lord (by) whom are all things!

God created Jesus Christ first.

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

God had wisdom before he created Jesus. How could you create without wisdom?

God has given all He has to His son Jesus. (including wisdom)

Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Now, (we) are (being) created in His image.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

We are being given wisdom through Christ (the word). Jesus is the word.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Jesus existed before He was born of Mary.

Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Jesus died. So He is not eternal.

Deu 33:27 The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them.

Hope this helps!

Rick
Hi! Rick

I do believe I'm beginning to bore you. And to be honest I am a bit thick, so a little more patience and a bit less scripture quotes with more explaining will be a tremendous help. A sheet full of scriptures hurled at me gets me all confused because I don't know which one to pick on.

I don't really know how to make myself any clearer. Let's try this. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Now we know that the Father is the One and only God, so the Word must be the Father's Spirit. Right! So now we can bring the carnal man Jesus into the picture. So Christ must be another name for the Holy Spirit through which Mary conceived to produce Jesus. Christ/Wisdom/Prudence was not created, He was always with the Father an integral part of Him from the very beginning. So now I understand that everything that is done is done by Christ, Jesus is just the temple or housing/tent. Right! or Wrong!

This quote from you is more in line with my thinking. "This can ONLY BE DONE BY CHRIST.(joshua/JESUSBy his instruction FROM HIS GOD) the carnal manJESUS/ joshua CAN NOT POSSIBLY DO THIS!"

But having said that this doesn't explain the "WE" and "US" in Genesis. But that's another story.

Peace! Posted Image

Roy UK
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JasonM
Jul 5 2008, 06:58 AM
Roy Monis
Jul 4 2008, 12:33 PM
"So when, why and how did He become God?"


Hi Roy,

Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the Scripture cannot be broken;
Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Luk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

We are gods but we can do nothing of ourselves for Christ is our head:
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body.

Christ is the Son of God but can do nothing of his own for the Father is the head of Christ:
Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Hope this helps
jason
Hi! Jason

I am aware of all those scriptures, brother, but they don't answer my question.

Let me put it this way.

God is the One God, the Father. That is an established fact, but who is He speaking to in Gen.1:26 "Then God said, “Let Us
make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;...."
The "US" and the "OUR"?

In John 1 we are told that: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being...." (Jn.1:1-3). Here he (John) is speaking of the Word, not Jesus the man. Jesus only became the Word when the Word was made flesh sometime later; "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." (Jn.1:14). I believe we are dealing with two here the carnal/man and the Spiritual/Word in one tent the same as we are now with Christ in us.

But who was the WORD before He became flesh? That is what I'm asking. Was the Word another name for the Messiah/Christ? If it is, then Christ could not have been created but Jesus the man was. Jesus was not part of the scenery when the Word was doing the creation job.

If the Word was the Son in the bosom of the Father, then the Son when He was begotten to do the work of creation became God the Son subjected to the Father, the One and Only God both from eternity.

I hope I have made a better job of trying to make my point a little clearer now? Just one scripture and another to witness it with a short explanation is far less confusing than having the Book thrown at one, if you get the drift?

Is this reasoning wrong or right? All I ask is two scriptures to prove that the Word is not who I think He is.

Peace! Posted Image

Roy UK
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lrolson
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Roy

You said....

God is the One God, the Father. That is an established fact, but who is He speaking to in Gen.1:26 "Then God said, “Let Us
make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;...." The "US" and the "OUR"?

You ask.....

who is He speaking to in Gen.1:26?

Now I know why you are confused! Let me explain this verse.

Gen 1:26 And God430 said,559 Let us make6213 man120 in our image,6754 after our likeness:1823 and let them have dominion7287 over the fish1710 of the sea,3220 and over the fowl5775 of the air,8064 and over the cattle,929 and over all3605 the earth,776 and over every3605 creeping thing7431 that creepeth7430 upon5921 the earth.776

The word God430 is from the Hebrew....
H430
àìäéí
'ĕlôhîym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.

This is the word (Jesus) speaking and not His Father. Jesus is doing the creating.

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

I will stop here. So we can take this one step at a time.

In no way are you boring me Roy.

Rick
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JasonM
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Roy Monis
Jul 5 2008, 11:22 AM


I am aware of all those scriptures, brother, but they don't answer my question.

Let me put it this way.

God is the One God, the Father. That is an established fact, but who is He speaking to in Gen.1:26 "Then God said, “Let Us
make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;...."
The "US" and the "OUR"?

In John 1 we are told that: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being...." (Jn.1:1-3). Here he (John) is speaking of the Word, not Jesus the man. Jesus only became the Word when the Word was made flesh sometime later; "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." (Jn.1:14). I believe we are dealing with two here the carnal/man and the Spiritual/Word in one tent the same as we are now with Christ in us.

But who was the WORD before He became flesh? That is what I'm asking. Was the Word another name for the Messiah/Christ? If it is, then Christ could not have been created but Jesus the man was. Jesus was not part of the scenery when the Word was doing the creation job.

If the Word was the Son in the bosom of the Father, then the Son when He was begotten to do the work of creation became God the Son subjected to the Father, the One and Only God both from eternity.

I hope I have made a better job of trying to make my point a little clearer now? Just one scripture and another to witness it with a short explanation is far less confusing than having the Book thrown at one, if you get the drift?

Is this reasoning wrong or right? All I ask is two scriptures to prove that the Word is not who I think He is.

Peace! Posted Image

Roy UK
Sorry for "throwing the book at you" so to speak. :$

My opinions are truly worthless so I try to only give scripture and leave the teaching to the Father.

You ask if Christ was created....as Rick first pointed out to you in Rev 3:14 Christ is the beginning of the creation of God:

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

In Hebrews we are also told he was Made:

Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honor, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

You say: "Was the Word another name for the Messiah/Christ"

In John 1 that you quoted we are told that all things came into being through him speaking of the Word, and in Roman 11 we are told all things are of him and through him and to him speaking of the Lord.

Rom 11:34-36 KJVR For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor? (35) Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? (36) For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen.

You say: "Here he (John) is speaking of the Word, not Jesus the man. Jesus only became the Word when the Word was made flesh sometime later"

As you may be able to see from the above John referred to him as the word but Paul referred to him as Lord. One and the same. Yes the Word/Jesus did become flesh

Php 2:6-7 CLV Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God, (7) nevertheless empties Himself, taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity,

Christ then came as flesh being born of Mary "taking on the likeness of humanity" but he existed before this or there would have been no need to "empty" himself.

Maybe this is of some help

jason
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