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Sending away to learn
Topic Started: Mar 8 2006, 06:26 AM (1,447 Views)
ebpeuka
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I disagree with you about the value of sending 13 year olds away from home to school. The points you brought might all be true, but kids that age gain a lot from being a part of family home life too.
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rikal
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Sending away is almost universal in Israel and most of my friends have boys this age. It doesn't take them out of family life unless they go very far away. Like US - Israel or such. All of my boys were active in the family. We came to visit, they came on out Shabbos, YT and ben haz'manim. They came home to help each time I gave birth even though my daughter also came home. In yeshiva katana they call home if homesick and the hanhala is usually lenient with a boy in shiur alef if he really needs every Shabbos home for a while. When they come home you will notice how much they've matured and the difference on the Shabbos table. I can't think of any benefit a kid would have to stay home, as the learning ends so late anyway that its not fair to ask them to do anything.
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FlowerGirl
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Go, chavamom, go!!!!! :yay

I am with ebpeuka on the sleep-away matters.
Kids belong at home!

Quote:
 
I learned from the rav we use for shalom bayis/chinuch: If the choice is a close one between being too strict or too lenient choose the strict option. A child that has been raised too leniently will have a hidden problem that will take years, if ever, to be found. The kid who was treated too strictly will have a visible problem and can be helped more readily.

very interesting.
I'll need to think about this.
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chavamom
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rikal
Mar 8 2006, 09:51 AM
Sending away is almost universal in Israel and most of my friends have boys this age. It doesn't take them out of family life unless they go very far away.

Yes, but they routinely come home every third week. Here, they come home for yom tov and bein hazmanim, so it's a really different situation.
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rikal
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BTW, in Lubavitch yeshivas every bachur from shiur alef goes to the Rebbe for Tishrei and they earned the money in my house and others. Some clean houses for Pesach, some ask for money for their BD, some tie tzitzis in the afternoon, some make the whole amt building sukkas in CH. One guy from here was given the job as 770 bouncer. He is huge and once you've dealt with arabs you know how to deal with what wanders into 770. Parents chip in a little and the hanhala will give them money towards the ticket if they learned a whole masecta of Gemora or something else good in learning. Many kids who earn more than enough lend to their friends. Eshel for Israeli bachurim is a $50 deposit + turns in the kitchen.
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happyduck1979
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First of, CONGRATS on being a mean mom :) I totaly think you andeled it properly and that it will make more of a lasting impression than any punishment. MY parents when the "punishment" route with my brother and it did diddilysquat. It was ony once he had to deal with his own consequences that he started to behave more appropriately. And that, as once he went away to an overnight yeshiva post high school.

However post high school is not at 13. I am honestly not sure about sending away a child so long on a regular basis, so in that veing, I would be interested to see statistics on

a) rebelion issues in the teen years, and
B) what sort of family men both typs becomes as they get older, get married and have kids of their own.
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rikal
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The yeshiva my son went to at 13 has existed since before the founding of Israel. It has graduates in all walks of life, all over the world. Of my 3 older sons, he is the most recently married. My second quit after a year and a half because he had social maladjustment before he left. Today at 19 he is taking on what he learned and maturing. Today he is grateful for the attention he got in his small yeshiva. My experience of their friends is that they are very family responsible. One boy in my son's class was the oldest in a large family whose father was niftar. He had blanket permission to leave whenever his mother called. My older children are very dedicated to family. They are not married for years, but they seem to have pretty good sense for such young people. They help their wives and are sensitive. I have met plenty of sensitve parents in our communities and Lubavitch Yeshiva w/o a dorm is nonexistant in Israel. There is definitely no such institution for boys where there are kids who dorm and kids at home in the same school. My experience in girls' school is that is really a mistake. In my oldest son's class there was a kid who at the beginning of shiur alef hadn't had his bar mitzva yet. There are no classes, any boy who is mature enough and can pass the test and will behave can get in w/o age being a factor.

OTOH, The last time I was in the states, I was at a family for Shabbos and the class of their 15 yr old came for the meal. They were very rude to the father. I later asked the mother what she thought and why he was still at home. She said her older one was in Chicago but that they had never thought of sending the younger one. I was surprised that it wasn't obvious, esp. when they weren't pleased with the midos of the class. The value is starting to sink in and would probably also become standard if they came home like Israeli boys, every 3 weeks. She said that it was a good idea and she would speak to her dh.

The father was Israeli and I talked to him in Hebrew when he was quiet. This allowed him to speak very freely, as we were the only 2 Heb. speakers in the house. It is because after so many years in the US he still is not 100% American and he is on the wrong side of the fence in the "controversy". He would probably leave his fancy house and business in a minute if his in laws weren't unhealthy and his wife could adjust. I saw that his job would be easier if his sons had learned in Lod or Tzfat.

My experience is that there are fewer rebellion issues because they have a more appropriate amt of independence in dorm and the it is not Mom and Dad who say NO! There is also more consistency and objectivity.
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zuncompany
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I don't think you can just lump ALL kids together. You need to evaluate each one on an individual basis. There are some kids that are yes mature and could handle going away at such a young age. However what do they miss out on by not being home with the family. Each family has to take the pros and cons, their individual child's personality and maturity level and evaulate for themselves. You also have to take into account how far or close the place is, how often they could come home, etc...

I don't think you can say that the Israeli system is better. I am NOT impressed by the bochrim who come in tishrei time. VERY unimpressed and because of this we absolutely AVOID CH during tishrei.

There is SO much a child can learn and get out of being home- even if only for a few short hours a day. Who says its healtheir to avoid situations of having to learn to deal with older and younger situations? Who says its not healthy for a child to know that their sister gets to stay out an extra hour because she is older, etc...
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CravingRavioli
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I'm pretty much pro-sending away, but after talking to my sil who's on shlichus (and has no choice--her boys have to go away to learn) we decided to keep ds here for shiur alef. Mesivta is a big adjustment from cheder. B"H it turned out to be the right decision. Ds has a phenomenal rebbe and mashpia. In fact, he just called from yeshiva with his second favorite question after "can I have money": "Can my class have a farbrengen in our house tonight?" How can I say no?
Also, the cost of sending away is incredibly expensive here in the States. I don't know how ppl do it. It's something to think about for next year, though.
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CravingRavioli
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Sara, the thing with sending away when they hit mesivta age is that the boys are at the point where their learning level is much more intense and focused than in cheder. Going away and living in yeshiva just enables them to focus and put all their energies into learning with fewer distractions. But you're right, it's not for every boy. Not all of them do well away from home. Sometimes a boy may end up switching schools every year till he finds the right one for him. It's tricky. I do believe my son will do well IYH when he goes away, but.......
NOT FRANCE, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!!!
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zuncompany
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Tzippi- I agree. For some kids is the best thing they can do. But we are kidding ourselves to think these schools are perfect. I have seen good boys go bad cause of influences and bad boys go good. You have to know your kid and be very careful picking the school. I know it has been very hard for people we know who have kids that have to be sent away because of either shluchus or cause their community has no mesivta of their own and its not always best for the kid. There isn't a lot of quality out there honestly.
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zuncompany
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also there is a difference between a 13/14 year old and a 15/16.
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rikal
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Here if a kid isn't mature enough he spends and extra year in Talmud Torah. 8th grade is optional and Yerushalayim has an optional 9th grade. Also, the issues of not making it has usually more to do with the parents. I speak after having 4 kids go through dorm and seeing those who bomb out. Usually the type that call home when they have it out with another kid and the parents don't tell them that they are old enough to deal with things themselves who don't last. My bomb out was because he had trouble with kids his own age in cheder. It was important for him, though, in terms of identity and that he got.

As to not being impressed with the bachurim. That is a generalization, thousands come. In addition, I know from my own boys that they do a lot of good while there and are the reserve troops of the holiday mivtza tanks. I guess one has to have boys that age in the house for years and then you realize that somethings that are blamed on the environment is just because they are teenage boys. I'll take the shtickim of our bachurim over the stupidities that my brothers and I did at that age any day. Kids whose biggest illegal act is asking somebody to get them a bottle of mashke for a farbrengen. Halavai by me at that age.
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zuncompany
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rikal- its not that simple. REALLY have you been in CH during Tishrei? have you talked with the people who live there? What do they think? All I hear is complaining from my CH friends about the Israelis who come in. Sorry- but they aren't perfect and the system isn't perfect.

I think you also have to realize that the system even within Lub schools is VERY different here and in Israel. I think a 3-4 hour bus ride tops is a VERY different situation than a 3-4 hour plane ride home. When we were ready to buy a house my husband and I sat down and really went over the whole chinnuch thing. We talked with some of the top educators around about the different schools (I think I spent weeks calling schools asking questions). Yes, things will be different when the boys get to mesivta but I can tell you honestly- I was VERY unimpressed with many of the programs, their goals, and how they see their issues. I talked to parents with good and bad experiances from all the schools. We decided to stay in philly and take our chances since the people running the new cheder are AMAZING. IY"H we will have our own mesivta by than. And if the policy is they must dorm even being in town like chicago I would be okay with it- cause I am only a few minutes away. It has nothing to do with babying my kids. It has to do with not being comfortable allowing others to raise my kids. I am not having kids to just hand off to someone else. It also has to do with the fact that the dorm councelors in and of themselves are not that much older and I am not impressed with the amount of attention the boys get. I don't need my boys walking down the block and hooking up with girls cause nobody is keeping track of them (and YES, this is happening in the mesivtas around the US... and YES, some of them are making huge changes but a lot of them aren't).
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rikal
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Zun, I decided to delete a potentially controverial part of my post about American BTs always expecting perfection and you say, "Its not perfect out there". You know what, its not perfect in there either. I am not saying that for every case no matter what its the way. I am saying from a lot of accumulated experience, and here there is no other choice, that in nearly every normal case it is definately better than any other alternative. With the same experience I am saying that absolutely nothing is lost in terms of the relationship with the family or ability to be good family men. The big problem is that parents have to take the time, visit the school, know their kids, talk to other parents and check out who else is going there. Anyone who has done it will tell you that there is no always good/bad yeshiva. The most important thing is who is in the shiur with him. Is there a good shiur gimmel, as they set the tone? In a normal situation there certainly will not be any harm. 15 for most boys is too late because of identity and adjustment issues.

Its not perfect out there but there is a lot of good chinuch out there for parents adult enough to let go. I've experienced it. It is important to remember that parents with only one or two small children cannot begin to fathom how much those babies will mature in the next 10-12 years.

Another point is that our kids will be ffbs and won't think like us (I hope).
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