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Sending away to learn
Topic Started: Mar 8 2006, 06:26 AM (1,449 Views)
CravingRavioli
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aishes chayil
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Rikal, you took the words right out of my mouth (or keyboard, I guess). What really matters is who's in the shiur w/your son. One of the reasons I was ok with keeping ds here this year is because he has a really nice class.
That's the one thing I keep asking ds when he talks about going away. Every time he mentions a mesivta, all I want to know is who else is going there.
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zuncompany
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I am plenty adult to let go. I am plenty adult to know that my kids won't be thinking the way I do considering they are growing up in the system. I am plenty of adult to know NOTHING is perfect. I am also plenty of adult to see that there is a LOT of issues within chinnuch and the mesivtas. I didn't spend every shabbos for a year at one of the heads of chicago's house and not learn this.

Like I said way at the begining- it depends on the kid, the school, the situation. You can't lump all teen boys together. NOT everyone is ready at 13 and NOT everyone will get such great things out of it. You have to know YOUR kid.

I have seen families that its good for the family and bad. You can not claim that NOTHING is lost when your kid is living so far away from you at 13 that they can only come home for the holidays and you are lucky at that cause many of the boys go to yeshiva kayetz, helping shluchim around the world for pesach saders, and RH/YK by their schools. SO when again do you see your kid? ITS VERY different when they can come home for Shabbos or other times during the week.

You also can't claim that the other children in the family do not loose out when their older siblings aren't there. I look forward to the day when Tev and Zu sit down and learn a meimer together. I look forward to seeing Zu help G-d willing younger brothers prepare for their bar mitzvahs or class. I have a friend whose older siblings were all gone away to mesivta and seminary when they were little- they have no relationship cause they don't know them. Is this honestly healthy?

I have spoke with plenty of people who have btdt and not all are so glowing about it as you. I think you need to realize that while you see it as all good- not everyone does and not everyone is so confident in the system. I am NOT impressed by a lot of what I see BECAUSE I want my kids in the end to end up frum! You should hear some of the things going on here in the states... I am sure its happening elsewhere too.
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rikal
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Yes, I've been there during Tishrei and I send at least one every year since my oldest turned 13. Or rather he sent himself. I know one thing, many in CH complain because of politics and the controversy. If they could get away with saying the Tzfat bachurim bring buddhas they would say it, plain sinas chinam. Another thing I'm sure that is not liked is that Israeli bachurim farbring till all hours and have a type of Chassidishe attitude that is not affected by living in a nonJewish culture. They are Rebbe netto. Me'al taam v'daas. Learn, farbreng, mivtzoim. They are such a large group that you can't help but feel their presence. Some look at that as "taking over".

Do you know that Israeli guest have many complaints about CH residents. The attitude that the shchuna is theirs and those who come for Tishrei are intruders and a nuisance. The snotty newlywed who told me that I had to move so she could stand in front of me as she was at camp for 6 wks and hadn't seen the Rebbe except for when they brought the camp. It didn't interest her that I came for the first time in 8 years and was there only one Shabbos. I nearly had a baby pushed out of me in the 8th month because the people behind me pushing. Yep, young girls from the shechuna. It is a trauma for me when I visit the states because I ceased being American before I left and I see people on one hand crying about the state of tznius but calling our Israeli no TV, secular video, books, advertisements, magazines and school dress codes as fanatical. You live for years in books of Chassidus and once every 5 years or so you go to get charged up (usually you need a miracle and a good reason) and its hard to step out of the Hebrew section of the Beis Medrash l' Nashim. Anybody who wants to find the negative can.

As to counselors being young, thats done on purpose for good reason. That way the boys look at them differently and relate to them in a way they won't with married, grown men. Counselors are not meant to be heavy duty authority figures. They are sometimes a very important way for the hanhala to have its hand on the pulse of what's really going on.
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rikal
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What is going on in the states is because of the lack of immersion. Do you have one yeshiva that follows the program of the Rebbe Rayatz and the horaos of the Rebbe. Examples (the Rebbes, not mine):

1) As little limudei chol as possible.
2) No access to outside media and fashions.
3) No newspapers or preoccupation with events that don't affect Am Israel.

In the states I heard parents ridiculing yeshivas were yiddish is spoken. The Rebbe said certain things bothered him. Bachurim speaking English among themselves, wearing ties, worryng about parnassa before they are in the parsha, etc.
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zuncompany
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think what you want and I will think what I want- cause in the end we see things from very different perspectives.

Thats nice that they are not heavy duty authority figures but kids do need authority and they do need to be watched and cared for. This isn't happening at a LOT of the schools. They are still kids.

Lets not start bashing here- please. I am not saying either group is perfect. All I am saying about tishrei is the boys are not as perfect as some people would like to think and make them out to be.

Nobody can say that growing up in Israel they are so closed off from everything and anything and only know chassidus and how to be a mentch. A child can live a life just as you described just as well outside of Israel... its the parents that make it that way. Not the country.
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zuncompany
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chicago- thats just one example rikal. They work HARD to make it what it is and had to work HARD to clean up the trash.
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sauls_mom
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ok- ive have been reading- and rereading this thread for a while. I want to give my 2cents- for what it's worth.

Everyone knows I am basically a secular Jew- though we are regularly attending services with the hope that my son has more of a Jewish upbringing than I did (DH is catholic)

I have had a similar discussion with several women on this board- about sending children away to learn. It's something that I simply don't get- especially when they are only 12-14 yrs old.

While they may be men under Jewish law, they certainly arent mature. Even the most mature 14 year old is still a child- still needs to learn from family. I totally agree with Zun- there are things that you can learn ONLY from being home. Family dynamics play such a huge role in shaping children into adults.

I completely understand the need for them to dedicate their time to their education (even if I disagree on this point.) But children coming home monthly or just on holidays is wrong. While they need religious and education training- they also need training on how to treat others in a family and social environment. For them to become Father's and Husband they need to learn from their home- and from their neighbor's. A dorm counselor - who from what I have heard is maybe just slightly older- is not sufficient to teach them this behavior or their values.

Again- its my 2cents- but I wouldnt think of sending a child away. Maybe, just maybe, when they are 16-18...but NEVER younger.
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FlowerGirl
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rikal
Mar 9 2006, 12:52 PM
Kids whose biggest illegal act is asking somebody to get them a bottle of mashke for a farbrengen. Halavai by me at that age.

I wouldn't call that innocent.
with enough bottles a tragedy can occur.

off topic: yiddish? why not hebrew?

back to the topic:
13-14 is way too young to go away. They're kids, and kids need parents.

And I'm not changing my mind about that. No matter how well the kids do, it is possible to them to be immerced in learning while sleeping at home.

And younger councelors - sorry, a 16 yr old in charge of a dorm? Not sure if I'm thrilled about this option. Even 18 is a bit too young.
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ebpeuka
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FlowerGirl
Mar 9 2006, 04:52 PM
off topic: yiddish? why not hebrew?


Because Yiddish is the lingua france between chassidim, whereas (modern) Hebrew was conceived and written by anti-religious apikorsish Zionists.
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CravingRavioli
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With regards to yiddish, there are other considerations. First of all, while some chassidishe communities do tend to communicate mainly in yiddish and disregard hebrew, you can't necessarily include Lubavitch in that category. There are plenty of Hebrew-speaking Lubavitchers, and modern Hebrew language is taught in our schools. But, if you want to learn the Rebbe's discourses in the original language, well, you'd better know how to speak yiddish as well. And not the kind of yiddish that my mother refers to as "kitchen yiddish."
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FlowerGirl
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Cool banner, HappyDuck, thanks!

Re: Yiddish vs. Hebrew.
ebpeuka, we might have discussed this b4.
In any case, don't teach modern hebrew. Teach the original. After all , that is the language of the Torah.

And I did hear Rabbeim remark on how illiterate some learned ppl r in this matter and that many seforim have horrendous grammar.

A rather sad situation, I must say.

Oh, and I'm not planning to learn anything in Yiddish. I'm not lub. & there is enough to learn in Hebrew.
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ebpeuka
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CravingRavioli
Mar 9 2006, 05:18 PM
With regards to yiddish, there are other considerations. First of all, while some chassidishe communities do tend to communicate mainly in yiddish and disregard hebrew, you can't necessarily include Lubavitch in that category. There are plenty of Hebrew-speaking Lubavitchers, and modern Hebrew language is taught in our schools.

I think FG was referring to the Rebbe's wish that the chassidim communicate among themselves in Yiddish rather than English (or in Israel, Hebrew I would imagine.)

Quote:
 
But, if you want to learn the Rebbe's discourses in the original language, well, you'd better know how to speak yiddish as well.


Yup, I used to go to the farbreng that the Rebbe had for girls at the end of the school year and I really missed out because I couldn't understand anything the Rebbe was saying.




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rikal
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When I talked about learning Yiddish, I meant for those that want to fulfill the Rebbe's wishes. Here in Israel, Temeni Lubavitchers can often speak Yiddish in Israel, and they are a very large percentage of Lubavitchers here.One needs to know it if they really want to get some of the nuances of sichos, not to mention something like Likutei Dibburim which is written in 3-4 languages. My Yiddish is poor and I'm not happy about it. When I need help I call my son who learned in yeshiva. Although one can argue with what the Rebbe says, in this context I was referring to those who are interested in being Lubavitch. Part of this means that I believe the Rebbe to be the best guide for me and I want to do my best to keep what he has said.
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rikal
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Quote:
 
yiddish? why not hebrew?


Why not both, I speak English, Hebrew and poor Yiddish. Ebreuka can add Russian and German.

Quote:
 
And younger councelors - sorry, a 16 yr old in charge of a dorm? Not sure if I'm thrilled about this option. Even 18 is a bit too young.


Counselors are at least in yeshiva gedola (+18), they are not alone and there is an adult responsible. Let's imagine the worst.

Just for curiosity's sake I would like a correlation: How many of those for/against have actual experience of a child in a dorm?

As I said I am pretty sure there is a strong correlation between not having experienced it and being fearful. Fear of the unknown and different is a well documented phenomenon.
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gayilc
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My kids are not quite of the age where they are about to be going away for school yet, but I do have some very strong opinions on the matter.

First of all, as a highschool girl, growing up out of town, I wished beyond wished that there had been a school in my neighborhood that I wouldn't have had to travel so far away to. I didn't dorm. I did a lot of traveling, and some nights I stayed by my grandparents who lived near the school, but, honestly , I hated being away from home. Could be that was just my personality, cuz I hated being away from home in sem too, and I called my mother every day terribly homesick.

Second of all, dh is in charge of a high school dorm this way, adn the things that I've heard make me never ever want to send my kids away to a dorm for highschool! There are drinking issues; one kid was sent home because of a suspected addiction! There's a lot of chutzpah, these kids for some reason feel like they have to answer to no one sometimes. Just in general, when there's no school, there's no one that's really on top of them 24/7. They have to report to dh where they are going and stuff, but I've heard of plenty of times where they lied, or just didn't tell dh (leaving dh going nuts trying to figure out where they were....) Being away from home, a parent doesn't see the kids that their children are hanging out with. DH has had to tell kids that they can't go to other kids houses because he knows what goes on there. They've gotten really angry at him. My point is, there's no parent to tell them these things, no parent to see what's really going on..... only to get called when things go really wrong.

My mother is very very anti sending kids away to a dorm school (hence, my extensive carpooling days in hs, along with taking trains, busses, car services....to come hoome almost every single night!) She was SOOO happy when a branch of the yeshiva opened up near home, and my brother in 11th grade is there now, and thriving! She's so happy that he's home every n ight, and not out who-knows-where!
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