| We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Sending away to learn | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 8 2006, 06:26 AM (1,448 Views) | |
| aaa | Mar 10 2006, 10:17 AM Post #31 |
|
queen
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Exactly. |
![]() |
|
| chavamom | Mar 10 2006, 01:47 PM Post #32 |
|
Bala Buste
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
My family actually doesn't have Yiddish speakers - my dad's family spoke German. It's funny, I never really realized until I was an adult how much German my dad really knows. My mom's family spoke German and French (her grandfather was from Alsace). My mom speaks French well, but really grew up in an age and era where she was embarassed about the German and never really learned. She grew up with her Grandparents until she was 7 and she speaks French well. So when I was a baby, all these people thought they would speak different languages with me and I would learn. But I didn't learn much, except to be confused! All that was a prelude to the fact that with the German that I know and the Hebrew that I know, I'm finding Yiddish to be the easiest language I've learned so far ;) . |
![]() |
|
| U Tarzan Me Jane | Mar 31 2006, 05:20 AM Post #33 |
![]()
Rebbetzin
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I am not a BT and I am not lubavich. I can also tell you the yesahiva world iDoes not even come close to approaching perfect. I have 5 brothers 3 of whom are in the age range og 16-23. None of these boys are learners. Do you know what they went through in yeshiva because they did not want to sit and learn for the rest of thier lives? Yeshivas do not cater to bays like these, boys who are good boys, but arn't going to be the future Kollel men. these boys are rejected at every level of chinuch. IMO, chinuch in america is about using a cookie cutter and punching out identical clones. I went to a girls yeshiva that tried to do this to me too. Do you know teachers actually start lessons in girls schools in the following manner, " when you WILL be a kollel wife, and you are very tired and you want to go to sleep but the kids are up and your husband wants to go to night seder, you have to let him go bec. it is your job to sacrifice for torah!" I cannot tell you how many times I heard statements like this in school. It got to the point that when they said the word Kollel or wife I tuned them out. Personally, I think the reason that the divorce rate is so high among newly wed frum couples is because both girls and boys are being taught so much propaganda in our yeshivot. Boys have no clue how to be a father or a husband (and some don't even know how to be a mentch) because they have not lived enough of thier formative years at home. seeing your family once a month does not teach you the finer points of family dynamics! Girls are taught that they must marry a kollel boy to correctly prpogate the jewish nation. Boys have to be learning boys because working to support your wife is taboo. Whatever happened to listening to pirkei avot. Or doing what they did in the times of the gemara. Anyway, I am the exception to the rule, I realize very few people agree with my views of sending a child away and Kollel. But growing up as an outcast of the Yeshiva system, I see the many flaws it has. I also know why all these children go Off, the stricter (and frummer) the yeshivas get , the more children they lose. Honestly I have issues with the rules that are placed on children as young as 5 in our yeshiva system. I truly am worried about what will happen to my son next year. I have a lot to worry about before it even comes close to the time to send my children away. |
![]() |
|
| gayilc | Mar 31 2006, 09:30 AM Post #34 |
|
aishes chayil
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Maybe I just tuned it all out, but I definitely did not feel that in the school that I went to, all I heard about all the time was kollel. Sure it was mentioned here and there, but I don't think it was ever forced down our throats. I think it was perfectly understood that not everyone in the school would end up marrying a kollel guy! I think, that if you think your son is threatened in the school that he is in, in any way, you might want to look into sending him to a different school. Possibly one that is not as yeshivish as the one that he is in! Though there are schools that would cater to the guy who will be in kollel and learning, they are not the only one's out htere. And, yes, if the school in your area is not for you, then you might have to consider sending to a dorm anyway. When I was in HS, I travelled for an hour+ never knowing exaclty how I was going to get home each day or get to school the next, but it was worth it to me, to be with my family every night. When the time comes for your own children, you will have to make these decisions. Seriously, if you see that a school is not meeting your needs, you really have to consider changing your child out of it! My brother was in a yeshiva school, and was haiving a TERRIBLE time of it. After several months, my mother switched him back to the co-ed day school. It was the best thing she could have done for him! Parents have to be involved and realize when it's time for change, if a school is not meeting their child's needs! |
![]() |
|
| aaa | Mar 31 2006, 11:55 AM Post #35 |
|
queen
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
A united nation must have at least one language common to all its people. Modern Hebrew was revitalized in EY in part to unite the various kibbutzei galuyot . People arrived from an estimated 70 different countries; Yiddish was spoken in only a portion of them. How to enable Yizchak Mizrahi from Iran and Sallah Shabbati from Yemen and Alberto Abekasis from Spain to communicate with Milton Green from the US, Aleksandr Kochubiyefsky from Russia and Hermann Nussbaum from Germany? While Yiddish was once spoken by millions of Jews in the Ashkenazi world, it left out in the cold millions more of non-Ashkenazy background, as well as millions of Jews born in Russia after the rise of Communism. Why shouldn't they all learn Yiddish, you ask, like the Teimani Lubavitchers mentioned above? On the contrary, why should they? Why shouldn't you, Ms. and Mr. Ashkenazi Jew, learn Ladino? Or Judaeo-Arabic? those languages are as old as, if not older than Yiddish, and every bit as authentically Jewish. I would also like to point out that Yiddish was also the lingua franca of many apikorsish anti-religious Jews in Eastern Europe, which should make it as "tref" as Hebrew if that is one's criterion. YIVO, an organization dedicated to the preservation of the Yiddish language, is completley non-religious and has zero interest in preserving anything specifically religious. (Which is not to take anything away from YIVO's credit. There is merit to preserving the history of secular Jewish life in the Yiddish-speaking world, too.) The only fair, logical and equitable language to unite Jews of all backgrounds is Hebrew, with its basis in the universal language of the Torah and prayer. |
![]() |
|
| ebpeuka | Apr 1 2006, 05:25 PM Post #36 |
|
aishes chayil
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Leshon hakodesh, yes. Modern Hebrew, no. Yiddish was spoken for hundreds of years before Sholom Aleichem and YIVO entered the scene - they didn't make it up. |
![]() |
|
| guarana613 | Apr 1 2006, 08:07 PM Post #37 |
|
queen
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Wow, interesting discussion while Iīve been pesach cleaning. Rikal, Zun etc: Bottom line: Its up to the individual childīs needs and parents have to have the syata dishmaya and sechel to know what to do when the time comes. We have a yeshiva here and I daven that I wonīt have to send my kids away too early BUT if thats what will be best for them, then Iīll do it.You canīt make set rules. You have to be flexible and make plans based on the childīs needs at the time. Regarding yiddish, my personal experience is that alot more american bochurim speak yiddish than their israeli counterparts, but thats just my personal encounters with bochurim. Flowergirl, for us it is important that our children speak yiddish because it was the language that the Rebbe spoke.But we not negate hebrew because it gives kids an edge when it comes to reading sforim etc ....So our kids speak at different levels of fluency:Yiddish, Hebrew, English and....portugese :<!--emo&LOL:-->Posted Image<!--endemo--> |
![]() |
|
| rikal | Apr 3 2006, 12:14 AM Post #38 |
|
Rebbetzin
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I am considered a rasha. I didn't teach any of my children English and Anglos and Israelis alike throw rocks at me. I find it was a wise choice. When I was a student I read an interesting study about language. I was doing sociology and my ex was working at the robotics lab in AI speech recognition and this idea of the relationship between brain-language-culture was our breakfast and dinner, DD was 1 and we took her to the lab for natural speech analysis. What I learned that much of a culture's socialization is done by the language a person speaks. You are born with all of the natural sounds that are in languages and lose those that are not present in your native languages. When I examined a tribal language that had 1000 words for stick because these people lived of bugs they got out of the tree with sticks I made a decision that my children would have as a mother tongue a language that has more words than any other for kedusha. That even the word for love hid HaShem's light and its bad word was the absence of kedusha. I began shortly after that speaking only Hebrew to dd and after we made aliya everyone else was born here. Today they all can speak a little English they learned from school and others. They have no prob communicating w/relatives and that was the only thing any of us cared about w/regards to that. Dh grew up speaking Spanish and he told me it would be a waste of time to try to relearn it because all of his relatives speak English and nearly all Hebrew. Yiddish, we just didn't have where to learn it. I picked some up when a group of Eng. speaking women made a sichos shiur and there was a woman from a yiddish speaking home to translate for us. For Yiddish Igros I call ds. My main motivation to learn Hebrew is that I realized I would always be learning on a kindergarten level if I didn't learn it very well. You can't even imagine the difference until you do it. Even the same sefer in SIE and the original. You lose a lot of the depth even though their translators are good. |
![]() |
|
| rikal | Apr 3 2006, 12:35 AM Post #39 |
|
Rebbetzin
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
As to the original topic, you can't use other schools as a measuring stick for yeshiva, its purpose is different. It was meant originally to be not only a place where Torah could be learned w/o distractions but also for socializing. That is a good and desireable thing that most rabbonim realize is necessary. For BTs its even more necessary and they fight it the most. Western individualism says this is MY kid and I want to control what goes into his makeup for a (ridiculously long) 18 years. Judaism says to be exiled to a place of Torah. Drink thirstily their words, clinging to HaShem is by clinging to talmidei chachamim. We give are children the names of tzaddikim and then try to raise them with the same conflicts and doubts that we bring from our frei backgrounds. In his first 13 years most of his major socialization is done. The teenage years are meant for the assimilation into the adult world. The process of separation from us begins at birth. Then the halacha recognizes this person as not being a part of me. |
![]() |
|
| zuncompany | Apr 3 2006, 12:41 AM Post #40 |
![]()
Administrator
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Except some thing are acceptable to some and not to others. I am sorry but a lot of what I am hearing going on- I don't think so! Not putting my kid in such a situation cause it isn't a healthy one. I still don't see how it is totally healthy for a child to be away from their parents and how it teaches them anything about living as a family. I see some of my friend's husbands having such a hard time adjusting to married life- because they have no clue how to deal with living as a family and can't transition well. different outlooks. guarana613- I agree every kid is different. You have to look at the individual. However the way these schools are being run right now for the most part- its not acceptable. |
![]() |
|
| rikal | Apr 3 2006, 04:45 AM Post #41 |
|
Rebbetzin
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Score one point for aliya. From what you are saying I am a bit shocked that a rav suggested I send ds, who was 16 at the time to yeshiva there if I have relatives. I didn't do it because none of my kids would leave EY for an extended time and we don't have frum relatives. I prefer falling to the midrechov over the streets of NY any day. He himself is from the US so he has a lot of criticism for the Israeli yeshivos, but I hear worse from you people. BTW, mommy is not the one to socialize ds after BM. If kids are having trouble adjusting to family life I hope you have a controlled study to make sure the yeshiva is the cause. My probs in housekeeping and such were never caused by my learning. They were caused by my Mom who got married at 16 and gave up her dream to go to college and have a career. She poured all her being into make me and my sister like studying and academics and never taught us anything in the house but cooking and helping w/the younger kids. My brothers had to do gornisht (as my father and his father before him) because that's womens' work. In the yeshiva in Lod ds had to wash floors, serve meals, be mashpia to younger boys (from mid shiur bet he was a mashpia to shiur alef, not usual but for him OK) and his mivztoim was to Ramle. A depressed area. Three times a week mesibos Shabbos and Tzivos HaShem for Morocccan kids who live among the Arabs. Making personal contact was literally life saving. On Shabbos he also walked there before his own davening to give a shiur and be a tzenter for a minyan of old Sefardi men whose kids had freid out. They also loved him and each erev YT took him to buy new shoes, jacket, etc. They learn a lot about life and living. And judging by what I hear here and on other forums I would put my money on the spoiled upbringing and not the yeshiva that causes them to be thoughtless or clueless. BTW, my ds is now a very helpful hubby, like his bro. My unmarried sons came home from a hard day of working in building or from not sleeping 3 days in the army and worked in the store or made Pesach. Even if the kid goes to yeshiva at 13 the family puts down the strong foundation. My oldest observed that the frei kids in the army were nebbuks. They were in top shape as he was in a volunteer combat unit and these kids trained to get in from 10th grade, but they had no self discipline. They would cry if they couldn't see their gf every Shabbos. There were probs with haircuts and such. Being able to hold off w/a smoke until break etc. Ds said the army is nothing on yeshiva, the army is easy. Kabbalas ol is good training for the teamwork needed to be part of a combat unit. Three frei kids broke down and were transferred out. He not only came in physically weak, but w/almost zip secular education. He got the Chayal Mitzayen Award and had the guts to be the 1st soldier in the army to stand up against the entire army and political establishment for destroying caravanim in our yishuv. He went on to beat them twice in the Supreme court and have a major change in the army's discipline procedure named after him. He also was compensated by the army. Here. |
![]() |
|
| zuncompany | Apr 3 2006, 11:55 AM Post #42 |
![]()
Administrator
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
My kids have chores and they are little... I don't plan on not continuing this. Also you can't say all american boys are spoiled. Please with this boys and girls jobs. My kids see Tatty doing the laundry, help clean, etc... and the boys want to be like tatty. Its up the the parents. I don't need my boys to go to yeshiva to learn how to clean floors. Heck- I had Zu washing walls with a magic erraser yesterday when my husband was pesach cleaning the livingroom. Tev mops! LOL (he actually did a good job!) And the stories coming out of the Israeli yeshivas are not always that much better. You are lucky and must have made good choices. Every kid is different in what they need though and every family is different in what they need. You can't say this is better or this is worse just cause it worked for your family. I have seen kids destroyed and totally fried cause of going away. I have seen kids who have been made better and stronger for their experiances. And I have seen kids though they got a lot out of it- all they want is their family and are burnt out by the time they are 18. |
![]() |
|
| rikal | Apr 3 2006, 03:30 PM Post #43 |
|
Rebbetzin
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
When somebody freis out or worse you just have to look at the whole picture. My friend didn't want to send her 14 baby away and the in town yeshiva wasn't right for him and he's out on the street. You can find a one time example for anything. I didn't mean to say a kid goes to yeshiva to learn those things. I just said that in a homes like mine, where all housework is "womens' work" and there is no example of tatty helping, baruch HaShem they learn to give to others. Of course you have to pick the right place for your kid. I went to every yeshiva and hung out a bit in the yard - before my sons even knew we were considering the place. I went into the mecolet and saw whether the boys looked at hechsherim, behaved politely, etc.. My friends also have boys this age so I have a lot of mothers w/experience to talk to. I give the yeshiva more questions than they throw at me. I get an idea which cheder most of the class is coming from. Its also a good idea to ask where most of the boys continue. If I know most of the boys are going to YG in Yerushalayim or they're going to Tzfas or Migdal HaEmek says different things to me about the type of bachurim they have. When you listen to someone talk about a yeshiva listen to their attitudes. Someone who says that yeshiva x is good for x type and yeshiva y is good for y type is a better reference than someone who says the whole system sucks. Are they detailed and have specific praises/complaints? Do they have 1st hand experience as rebbe/parent or such? Anyone who doesn't have direct experience w/the yeshiva being checked out is not somebody I'll talk to. |
![]() |
|
| zuncompany | Apr 3 2006, 04:10 PM Post #44 |
![]()
Administrator
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I agree- you have to check it out well. Something though that very much bothers me is how some of the schools have very little supervision and if they have they are young bochrim that are honestly not much older and who don't have a clue whats going on or don't even care. I know first hand what happens in some of these places just by the lack of supervision and the availbility to act out (and its not one story its time after time). The sick thing is- many of the parents, teachers, and admin don't have a clue whats REALLY going on in their schools. The school blames it on the kid, the family, etc... question is- whats really going on after lights out? Where are their kids really hanging out in their bits of free time. I bet people would be surprised depending. Even if I had a great kid- why would I give my kid that opportunity? You dangle the candy in front of them enough and wallah. We run VERY different homes. And because of that our kids have VERY different needs. What is right for your kids- is prob. not necc. right for mine. |
![]() |
|
| rikal | Apr 3 2006, 05:25 PM Post #45 |
|
Rebbetzin
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I just reread my post and was afraid I lead people to believe in my present home dh does nothing. Far from the truth. It was my parents' home where Dad would sit next to the coffee machine in the kitchen and call my Mom to pour him a cup. Dh helps even though he works 12/day just like I come to the store when he needs. All kids have different needs, but we have limited number and types of mosdos. Until I sent my oldest, I was for this because this is what the Rebbe explicitely requested, along with a lot of other stuff like no limudei chol, no ties, 3 hours/day of Chassidus. Now I am for it because I see that it works for nearly every kid. When the parents are partners and it doesn't when the parents expect the school to do everything. The only failures I've ever seen (Many kids) is when the parents join the kids in criticizing or contradict what they learn or when the parent doesn't make sure the place is the right one for their kid. |
![]() |
|
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · teens · Next Topic » |





![]](http://z1.ifrm.com/static/1/pip_r.png)






3:37 AM Jul 11