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Geert Wilders.
Topic Started: Mar 7 2010, 04:53 PM (840 Views)
That's Pants Man
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Any of you been following whats been going on in the trial of this leader of the freedom party dutch politician? (although, in as far as being a politician is concerned, all of them need to be put on trial)

For those who don't know anything about him, he stands trial accused of insighting race hate in his condemnation of what he sees as the islamification of netherlands/europe.

The furore surrounding the trial is that alot of peeps believe this to be an attack on the rights to freedom of speech.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBlg2e5EAZk

Amongst other things, he has called for the banning of the building of mosques in his country, the banning of state funding for islamic schools in his country, and the banning of the koran.

He's responsible for the movie fitna, a film depicting terrorist atrocities alongside quotes from the koran.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=216_1207467783

He recently gave a speech in the house of lords

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_s...e-of-lords.html

What do you think, should he be allowed to air his views?, are his views anti-muslim?, will he get a fair trial?



 
voice
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I've been following his case. I agree that he should have freedom of speech (that also includes the BNP; but I don't support them). But I don't share some of his views.

Denmark and the EU are making a rod for their own back by trying to silence him.
 
fwenchie
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Nope I know nothing about him, and I can't watch youtube links, damn!
As far as granting him freedom of speech is concerned, then yeah, let him scream and shout, it doesn't mean anyone has to listen.
However, spreading racial hatred is not on, he should stand for trail for that offence, yes.
The last thing we need is another Hitler up there with the rest of the numbskulled politicians trying to rule OUR world.

First the muslims then who? The disabled, the unfortunates?
Nah.

 
Les
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Isn't his party tipped to win the general election in June?


 
voice
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fwenchie
Mar 7 2010, 04:06 PM
Nope I know nothing about him, and I can't watch youtube links, damn!
As far as granting him freedom of speech is concerned, then yeah, let him scream and shout, it doesn't mean anyone has to listen.
However, spreading racial hatred is not on, he should stand for trail for that offence, yes.
The last thing we need is another Hitler up there with the rest of the numbskulled politicians trying to rule OUR world.

First the muslims then who? The disabled, the unfortunates?
Nah.

I agree with your sentiments Fwenchie.
 
voice
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Les
Mar 7 2010, 04:06 PM
Isn't his party tipped to win the general election in June?

No, he hasn't got that much power.
 
ganda
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Free speech has to be at the forefront of any so called free country. So yes he has every right to say what he thinks, but as Fwenchie says,

"However, spreading racial hatred is not on, he should stand for trail for that offence, yes."

With this I totally agree. Racial hatred is the pre curser to war and should be actively discouraged.

I just hope that the playing field is level and not slanting towards the Islamic faith.......
 
That's Pants Man
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As far as spreading racial hatred is concerned, I can only comment on what I've seen him say, and so far, that hasn't been anything to do with race. What he is condemning is the religion of Islam and how it cannot fit in with western culture, as certain aspects of the religion are rather radical to say the least.

When he says that western cultures are based on judea/christian principles, I take that as meaning we believe in equality and freedom. For us it's a case of loving your fellow man, turning the other cheek, and all that biblical orientated stuff.

Islam is about submission, so our principles don't stand a chance. When your principles are about allowing everyone the right to practice/speak what they will, and a group comes along that will take advantage of those principles and turn them against you, and we allow it to happen, then we are on seriously shakey ground.

 
fwenchie
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Okies.

I'll try to get my flash player sorted and whatch what he is saying before making any more comments.
I'd have to agree, however, that there is no room for fascism in our society, and those muslims extremist are nothing but. I really don't get those guys.



 
ganda
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Islam is about submission, so our principles don't stand a chance. When your principles are about allowing everyone the right to practice/speak what they will, and a group comes along that will take advantage of those principles and turn them against you, and we allow it to happen, then we are on seriously shakey ground.


Freedom of speech is exactly what it says on the tin, freedom of speech. It should work both ways. This is what I was meaning when I said, "How level will the playing field be". But that said, we would be no better then those who actively supress other peoples belief, those countrys that we condemn, if we do not allow a certain culture in because we disagree with their beliefs and their priciples
 
ganda
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fwenchie
Mar 7 2010, 04:46 PM
Okies.

I'll try to get my flash player sorted and whatch what he is saying before making any more comments.
I'd have to agree, however, that there is no room for fascism in our society, and those muslims extremist are nothing but. I really don't get those guys.

Not sure if I'm teaching you to suck eggs, apologies if I am, but you can download a fresh copy from here: untick the free toolbar if you don't want it.

http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/
 
fwenchie
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Thanks , my lovely!


So, is being an anti-fascist being a fascist? :blink:
 
voice
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That's Pants Man
Mar 7 2010, 04:39 PM
As far as spreading racial hatred is concerned, I can only comment on what I've seen him say, and so far, that hasn't been anything to do with race. What he is condemning is the religion of Islam and how it cannot fit in with western culture, as certain aspects of the religion are rather radical to say the least.

When he says that western cultures are based on judea/christian principles, I take that as meaning we believe in equality and freedom. For us it's a case of loving your fellow man, turning the other cheek, and all that biblical orientated stuff.

Islam is about submission, so our principles don't stand a chance. When your principles are about allowing everyone the right to practice/speak what they will, and a group comes along that will take advantage of those principles and turn them against you, and we allow it to happen, then we are on seriously shakey ground.

You say/ or he says that Islam isn’t fit for a Christian society but people forget that Britain and Europe was originally a pagan society and Christianity was forced upon us. The same concerns people have with Islam they’ve had with Christianity. People also forget that Christianity was a very brutal and subversive religion. Destroying anything in its path. Including other Christian religions (such as Gnostic Christianity, Aryan Christianity etc.).

Concerning the Koran or Islam not being compatible. That is not true. The Koran is very compatible. Ninety percent of Muslims share that view. Sadly only a small minority – fundamentalist Muslims – would disagree. The same problems in America with Fundamentalist Christian who believe that other Christian beliefs are not compatible with the Bible’s teachings etc.

I’ve read the Koran and am very interested in all religions; the Koran was written for all eventualities, however, and like the Bible it has been bastardised to fit the views of a few fanatics’ and their twisted logic. There is nothing wrong with any religion other than the fanatics who abuse it for their own ends.

You say Islam is about ‘submission’ but so is the Bible; to submit to Gods/ Jesus’ will. Even though you say that about the Koran not everybody shares that level of devotion. Or putting it another way there are a certain group of Christians and Jews who share exactly the same level of devotion as some Muslims.

The Koran and the Bible traditions can seat easily next to each other without any problems.
 
voice
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ganda
Mar 7 2010, 04:55 PM
Islam is about submission, so our principles don't stand a chance. When your principles are about allowing everyone the right to practice/speak what they will, and a group comes along that will take advantage of those principles and turn them against you, and we allow it to happen, then we are on seriously shakey ground.


Freedom of speech is exactly what it says on the tin, freedom of speech. It should work both ways. This is what I was meaning when I said, "How level will the playing field be". But that said, we would be no better then those who actively supress other peoples belief, those countrys that we condemn, if we do not allow a certain culture in because we disagree with their beliefs and their priciples

There is a level playing field. However, there are fundamentalist on both sides who don't want that to be the case. Don't tar everybody with the same brush. The fanatics are a very small minority. The majority of Muslims just want to fit in with their society.
 
That's Pants Man
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ganda
Mar 7 2010, 04:55 PM
Freedom of speech is exactly what it says on the tin, freedom of speech. It should work both ways. This is what I was meaning when I said, "How level will the playing field be". But that said, we would be no better then those who actively supress other peoples belief, those countrys that we condemn, if we do not allow a certain culture in because we disagree with their beliefs and their priciples

This is what I was saying about our own beliefs/ideology being used against us.

When faced with the religous ideological overtones within islam, how do you combat it without going against your own principles and making yourself out to be a total gimp?

Geert has a right to speak, as he is speaking from an undeniable perspective of truth.

Radical imams preaching from a made up story are not, but they are also allowed to communicate their message of hopelessness, and I suppose they should.

The thing with this wilders case can be summed up for me as follows. Radical islam, taking advantage of the right to freedom of speech in europe, spread their message of intolerance through out europe. Wilders, using his right to freedom of speech, then recieves death threats from the followers of islam, wanting to shut him up and not allow him his freedom of speech. The state gets involved and passes judgement that radicals/Wilders will face prosecution for accessing their right to freedom of speech. This is not a very good state of affairs.

How do you challenge the faith of islam without insulting it?

How do you challenge the radical ideology of states like Iran, Saudi, Somalia etc. without insulting them?





 
voice
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That's Pants Man
Mar 7 2010, 05:35 PM


How do you challenge the radical ideology of states like Iran, Saudi, Somalia etc. without insulting them?

They have this problem in America with Christian fundamentalism. The problem is with all fundamentalism, not just Muslim.
 
ganda
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voice
Mar 7 2010, 05:35 PM

There is a level playing field. However, there are fundamentalist on both sides who don't want that to be the case. Don't tar everybody with the same brush. The fanatics are a very small minority. The majority of Muslims just want to fit in with their society.

This from the much publised story about Christian woman banned from wearing a cross

Ms Eweida was dismissed without pay in 2006 when she refused to cover up her cross necklace behind her neck scarf. She argued before the Employment Tribunal in 2008 that she should be allowed to wear her necklace because Muslim and Hindu employees were permitted to wear headscarves and turbans but the Tribunal ruled in favour of BA

See what I mean about a level playing field?
 
fwenchie
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I can't help thinking that it has to do with culture clash and skin colour too.
So many people use the ''I hate muslims' card when really they are just uncomfortable with difference.
 
voice
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ganda
Mar 7 2010, 05:45 PM
voice
Mar 7 2010, 05:35 PM

There is a level playing field. However, there are fundamentalist on both sides who don't want that to be the case. Don't tar everybody with the same brush. The fanatics are a very small minority. The majority of Muslims just want to fit in with their society.

This from the much publised story about Christian woman banned from wearing a cross

Ms Eweida was dismissed without pay in 2006 when she refused to cover up her cross necklace behind her neck scarf. She argued before the Employment Tribunal in 2008 that she should be allowed to wear her necklace because Muslim and Hindu employees were permitted to wear headscarves and turbans but the Tribunal ruled in favour of BA

See what I mean about a level playing field?

This has nothing to do with Islam but British Airways over enthusiastically interpreting the rules. Don’t blame Muslims for that. Your anger should be leveled at BA.
 
voice
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fwenchie
Mar 7 2010, 05:46 PM
I can't help thinking that it has to do with culture clash and skin colour too.
So many people use the ''I hate muslims' card when really they are just uncomfortable with difference.

I agree, also not understanding different ways... cultures as you say.
 
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