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Old Hollywood Lesbians; they got around
Topic Started: Sep 22 2008, 10:05 AM (76,474 Views)
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tetris
Dec 21 2008, 04:15 PM
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Dec 13 2008, 03:36 AM
More?
I love this thread. How about some book or movie recommendations?
"The Strange Love of Martha Ivers"was on one of the movie channels last weekend. I don't remember which one it was now. TCM maybe?

Anyway, the movie isn't as promising as the title would imply, but it's a two-fer; Barbara Stanwyck and Lizabeth Scott.

It's funny, because I grew up with some of these actresses as a kid, and I remember watching actresses like Stanwyck, Julie Andrews, and Debbie Reynolds and finding them not in the least bit interesting or attractive, probably because I perceived of them as uber-straight, but watching their movies as an adult, and imagining that they may have actually been lesbian/bisexual in real life, completely altered my appreciation of them.

Debbie Reynolds is a prime example. I always found her profoundly boring, sickeningly sweet, and with a completely non-sexual aura. Watching her movies now, I think she's gorgeous. Stanwyck is another one I can appreciate now, and she was in her prime in Martha Ivers.



Yeah, the fact that they were lesbians may have contributed to that asexual aura on screen and the fact that they had zero chemistry with their leading men. Now that we know they're dykes we can maybe appreciate why they looked so awkward and unappealing with men on screen.
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Dec 21 2008, 07:53 PM
Yeah, the fact that they were lesbians may have contributed to that asexual aura on screen and the fact that they had zero chemistry with their leading men. Now that we know they're dykes we can maybe appreciate why they looked so awkward and unappealing with men on screen.
No. No. No. This is the type of twisted logic that Hollywood execs use. That a lesbian actor in a romantic role could not possibly have chemistry with a man. Utter bullshit of course. It is disturbing though to hear it mimicked in this context.

It's called acting people.
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Dec 21 2008, 09:12 PM
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Dec 21 2008, 07:53 PM
Yeah, the fact that they were lesbians may have contributed to that asexual aura on screen and the fact that they had zero chemistry with their leading men. Now that we know they're dykes we can maybe appreciate why they looked so awkward and unappealing with men on screen.
No. No. No. This is the type of twisted logic that Hollywood execs use. That a lesbian actor in a romantic role could not possibly have chemistry with a man. Utter bullshit of course. It is disturbing though to hear it mimicked in this context.

It's called acting people.
Well, I certainly never though
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Dec 21 2008, 09:12 PM
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Dec 21 2008, 07:53 PM
Yeah, the fact that they were lesbians may have contributed to that asexual aura on screen and the fact that they had zero chemistry with their leading men. Now that we know they're dykes we can maybe appreciate why they looked so awkward and unappealing with men on screen.
No. No. No. This is the type of twisted logic that Hollywood execs use. That a lesbian actor in a romantic role could not possibly have chemistry with a man. Utter bullshit of course. It is disturbing though to hear it mimicked in this context.

It's called acting people.
Even the best acting in the world couldn't make anyone believe that some homos that tried their hand at a film career would have sexual chemistry with the opposite gender. Look and laugh at Liberace in Sincerely Yours. It only applies if they're GOOD actors, I think. Or imagine Richard Simmons as a Lothario type in a movie. I remember Debbie Reynolds in The Rat Race, and she had NOTHING going on with Tony Curtis up there in the way of fireworks, probably because she was a big old dyke.
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Dec 21 2008, 09:26 PM
Even the best acting in the world couldn't make anyone believe that some homos that tried their hand at a film career would have sexual chemistry with the opposite gender. Look and laugh at Liberace in Sincerely Yours. It only applies if they're GOOD actors, I think. Or imagine Richard Simmons as a Lothario type in a movie. I remember Debbie Reynolds in The Rat Race, and she had NOTHING going on with Tony Curtis up there in the way of fireworks, probably because she was a big old dyke.
Very bad logic. Only good actors are convincing PERIOD. Meanwhile bad actors are unconvincing in general. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with anything.

True, a bad gay actor would unconvincing as a straight love interest. However, the same bad gay actor likely be unconvincing as an ax murderer or a star crossed playwright, etc.

Your examples of Richard Simmons and Liberace are horrible ones because they are by definition BAD actors. Very bad actors. (That's stacking the deck here really.) They would unconvincing in ANY role that was not "themselves" Lothario, ambitious attorney making good, detective, etc.
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Dec 21 2008, 09:43 PM
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Dec 21 2008, 09:26 PM
Even the best acting in the world couldn't make anyone believe that some homos that tried their hand at a film career would have sexual chemistry with the opposite gender. Look and laugh at Liberace in Sincerely Yours. It only applies if they're GOOD actors, I think. Or imagine Richard Simmons as a Lothario type in a movie. I remember Debbie Reynolds in The Rat Race, and she had NOTHING going on with Tony Curtis up there in the way of fireworks, probably because she was a big old dyke.
Very bad logic. Only good actors are convincing PERIOD. Meanwhile bad actors are unconvincing in general. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with anything.

True, a bad gay actor would unconvincing as a straight love interest. However, the same bad gay actor likely be unconvincing as an ax murderer or a star crossed playwright, etc.

Your examples of Richard Simmons and Liberace are horrible ones because they are by definition BAD actors. Very bad actors. (That's stacking the deck here really.) They would unconvincing in ANY role that was not "themselves" Lothario, ambitious attorney making good, detective, etc.
Bullshit. A gay person who has always been physically uncomfortable with the opposite sex and demonstrating erotic affection may show that on screen in the form of awkward or bad chemistry. This would apply to actors too. Face it, Debbie Reynolds was never very sexy with men on screen probably because it just wasn't in her to have chemistry with men.
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Your examples of Richard Simmons and Liberace are horrible ones because they are by definition BAD actors. Very bad actors.


Richard Simmons has never done any acting in movies or television AFAIK so how would you know he's a "BAD actor by definition?" Presumptuous much?
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Well, I certainly wasn't convinced by Ellen DeGeneres chasing after male romantic interests in that movie she did called "Mr. Wrong" even though she was a passable actress. And why? Because she was a big old queer, and it showed! hah.
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Dec 21 2008, 10:31 PM
Bullshit. A gay person who has always been physically uncomfortable with the opposite sex and demonstrating erotic affection may show that on screen in the form of awkward or bad chemistry. This would apply to actors too. Face it, Debbie Reynolds was never very sexy with men on screen probably because it just wasn't in her to have chemistry with men.
Once again, this is the same logic that homophobic movie execs use to discriminate against openly gay actors. It's a shame really that people voluntarily proprogate this nonsense. It's sad to consider that even members of the gay community agree with the homophobic industry execs: Gays can't play straight.

Well, it's no wonder so many gay and lesbian actors stay in closet. If this is the attitude, I can't blame them.

A good lesbian actor can to pretend to like men just the same as a good actor who is sane and moral can pretend to be a psychotic ax murderer. Using your logic one could argue that a sane, moral and pacifist actor could never convincingly portray a ruthless killer because it goes against that actor's fundamental nature and because she would be uncomfortable in violent situations. But no one bothers to make that argument because it's clearly irrational; just as irrational as your "gay actors can't play straight" argument. Acting is acting.
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Dec 21 2008, 10:36 PM
Quote:
 
Your examples of Richard Simmons and Liberace are horrible ones because they are by definition BAD actors. Very bad actors.


Richard Simmons has never done any acting in movies or television AFAIK so how would you know he's a "BAD actor by definition?" Presumptuous much?
Don't be dim. I was simply using the previous poster's construct. (She disingenuously stacked the deck with flamers instead of well received actors to make a shaky point.) The name "Richard Simmons" is irrelevant. Simply insert flamingly gay "actor" here and move on. And btw Simmons has had acting work.
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Some gay actors can play straight, some can't. Some straight actors can play gay, some can't. Sometimes it's because they have an overwhelmingly queer (or straight) vibe and just aren't convincing as heterosexuals (or homosexuals), or sometimes they're just bad actors. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the realm of pure acting.

No sane actor that is a major sex symbol with the opposite sex comes out because that fanbase would disappear overnight. This is a hard reality.
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Dec 21 2008, 11:04 PM
Don't be dim. I was simply using the previous poster's construct. (She disingenuously stacked the deck with flamers instead of well received actors to make a shaky point.) The name "Richard Simmons" is irrelevant. Simply insert flamingly gay "actor" here and move on. And btw Simmons has had acting work.
You were still using him as an example of a bad actor there, though you had no evidence to the contrary. Tidy up your posts if you don't wish to be called on points like this. You could do with a little less wordage, imo.
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Even with the gossip, I still don't find Debbie Reynolds interesting. Too much of a 1950s housewife look. Barbara Stanwyck, on the other hand, has an intelligence and edge that is more appealing.

Is Julie Christie insufficiently "retro" enough to be discussed on this thread? There were rumors of her bisexuality on DL.
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I remember watching Debbie Reynolds on an old Tonight Show appearance, and she did a bit of loose outrageous chatter with Johnny or his guest host where she spit several times...actually spit! After that I sort of thought she was vulgar.
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Dec 21 2008, 11:11 PM
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Dec 21 2008, 11:04 PM
Don't be dim. I was simply using the previous poster's construct. (She disingenuously stacked the deck with flamers instead of well received actors to make a shaky point.) The name "Richard Simmons" is irrelevant. Simply insert flamingly gay "actor" here and move on. And btw Simmons has had acting work.
You were still using him as an example of a bad actor there, though you had no evidence to the contrary. Tidy up your posts if you don't wish to be called on points like this. You could do with a little less wordage, imo.
Once again, don't be dim. Your point is irrelevant. I didn't select Simmons as an example, the previous poster did. If you have a problem with the use of him, direct it to the other poster. As I said, you can insert any other flaming " bad actor" in his place. Simmons himself is irrelevant. It is clear that you are attacking the use of Simmons because you have no other argument.
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Dec 21 2008, 11:22 PM
Even with the gossip, I still don't find Debbie Reynolds interesting. Too much of a 1950s housewife look. Barbara Stanwyck, on the other hand, has an intelligence and edge that is more appealing.

Is Julie Christie insufficiently "retro" enough to be discussed on this thread? There were rumors of her bisexuality on DL.
You just made me think of that song from Better Than Chocolate:

Julie Christie...
She makes me feel
misty...
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fultondyke
Dec 22 2008, 01:06 AM
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Dec 21 2008, 11:22 PM
Even with the gossip, I still don't find Debbie Reynolds interesting. Too much of a 1950s housewife look. Barbara Stanwyck, on the other hand, has an intelligence and edge that is more appealing.

Is Julie Christie insufficiently "retro" enough to be discussed on this thread? There were rumors of her bisexuality on DL.
You just made me think of that song from Better Than Chocolate:

Julie Christie...
She makes me feel
misty...
i remember lauren hutton being asked about a rumer that she julie christie had an affair in an inteview on 20/20. she denied it.
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Dec 21 2008, 11:22 PM
Even with the gossip, I still don't find Debbie Reynolds interesting. Too much of a 1950s housewife look.
She's boring boring boring.
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Regardless of how people self-identify, the by far majority of movie goers are unable to maintain the suspension of disbelief in only two cases regarding what's in the movie. If anything in the movie is unrealistic to the point of absurdity or unrealistic in the context of the film (recognizing fantasy sci-fi as being unrealistic in general), or if the audience is aware an actor playing a romantic, heterosexual role is homosexual.

This fact is the main reason homosexual actors don't want it to be public, and the people that suffer the inability to suspend disbelief regarding homosexual actors in romantic, heterosexual roles are self-identified homosexuals. It might be laughable to think Jodie Foster would've ever wanted to jump Rob Lowe's bones, but she played a character that did very convincingly. How can gay people ask, much less demand, that heterosexuals see past the actor's personal sexual preferences when gay people can't? How can gay people demand that gay actors come out when even gay people can't get over their being gay enough to suspend disbelief? No one doubts Tom Hanks in either a hetero or homosexual role, and everyone doubts Jodie Foster in a heterosexual role (even if she's brilliant as she was in Long Engagement).
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Zzzzz. Can we get back on topic and stop with the boring chatter about whether gays can play convincing straight roles? This used to be a great, compelling thread. Or is it dead already?
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The subject of homosexuals being believable in heterosexual roles was introduced, and how their being gay influences peoples' perceptions of them is relevant. I'm sorry anything at all intellectually challenging is difficult for you.

Greta Garbo was a hottie. A complete whack job, but a hottie none the less.
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Dec 22 2008, 04:22 AM
The subject of homosexuals being believable in heterosexual roles was introduced, and how their being gay influences peoples' perceptions of them is relevant. I'm sorry anything at all intellectually challenging is difficult for you.

Greta Garbo was a hottie. A complete whack job, but a hottie none the less.
Hey, asshat! What part of OFF-TOPIC don't you understand?
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I think it's interesting that most of this talk is concerning actresses from the 30's, 40's, 50's, and 60's.

What about the 70's or '80's? The '80s are more than 20 years ago now, and that's silver age if not golden age. Is there a statute of limitations on rumors of lesbianism?

Julie Christie was one of my favorites "maybes" from this era, as well as Beverly D'Angelo, Lauren Hutton, Olivia Newton John, Stephanie Zimbalist, etc - and there is no way Kate Jackson was 100% straight. All of these women apparently fall into the vaguely bisexual category however. What - no full-on lesbians back then? Surely not.



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While she has been getting more roles as she has gotten older, 65 year-old Holland Taylor is, by all accounts, gay. Her 'break-out' role was in the 1970's series Bosom Buddies, although she had a regular role on the soap opera The Edge of Night...Interestingly, her on-screen husband was played by Joel Crothers, who was also gay. Holland has supposedly had relationships with Liz Smith, and Stephanie Faracy (these are the only relatively well known people she's been linked with, that I know of...). While Holland has never been married, has never been in a documented relationship with a man, and has appeareed in many 'gay-related/themed/friendly projects, I don't know that she has explicitely "come out"...The straights of the world don't seem to know or care (In my experience, the straights of the world oftensee what they want to see, or it could be said that she doesn't have to "come out" because she's never really "been in" the closet...
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I think Holland has claimed to be straight at some point. There's a photo of her with Jodie Foster somewhere at an event, and there don't appear to be any men. Maybe a women in media thing?
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tetris
Dec 23 2008, 01:53 AM
Julie Christie was one of my favorites "maybes" from this era, as well as Beverly D'Angelo, Lauren Hutton, Olivia Newton John, Stephanie Zimbalist, etc - and there is no way Kate Jackson was 100% straight. All of these women apparently fall into the vaguely bisexual category however. What - no full-on lesbians back then? Surely not.



Woah, details? I've never heard this before.
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Dec 22 2008, 03:47 AM
Zzzzz. Can we get back on topic and stop with the boring chatter about whether gays can play convincing straight roles? This used to be a great, compelling thread. Or is it dead already?
On the contrary. this thread is still alive and kicking!
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Sparklehorse
Dec 23 2008, 05:57 AM
I think Holland has claimed to be straight at some point. There's a photo of her with Jodie Foster somewhere at an event, and there don't appear to be any men. Maybe a women in media thing?
I haven't found anywhere that she has made the claim to be straight...I have found some statements that skirt around the issue (sorry, no pun intended), such as the statement that she "always thought (she'd) get married in her 60s....", and that when Martin Sheen made an appearance on Two and a Half Men, that when he "came on, he'd better come on (to her)"....etc. It's funny, however, that on datalounge "Miss Susie" (an actress who contributes info regularly) has been asked about Holland (and her sexuality...) and she says she knows and likes Taylor, yet she doesn't answer questions regarding her preferences. Also on datalounge, many anonymous posters (some who claim to personally know) state that Holland is gay. I guess Taylor must feel somewhat pressured to remained low-key due to the many roles she's played as a mother/grandmother onscreen...Moronic agents/publicists probabally think the American public won't accept/watch a lesbian playing such characters...
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spelunketeria
Dec 23 2008, 06:45 AM
tetris
Dec 23 2008, 01:53 AM
Julie Christie was one of my favorites "maybes" from this era, as well as Beverly D'Angelo, Lauren Hutton, Olivia Newton John, Stephanie Zimbalist, etc - and there is no way Kate Jackson was 100% straight. All of these women apparently fall into the vaguely bisexual category however. What - no full-on lesbians back then? Surely not.



Woah, details? I've never heard this before.
I was referring to the infamous Lauren Hutton/Julie Christie rumors a previous poster alluded to -

I find it very easy to believe Christie is/was bi - she could have pulled off butch easily.
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How could I forget....Donna Mills

http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%3Fei%3DUTF-8%26p%3Ddonna%2Bmills%2Bimages&w=375&h=500&imgurl=www.poster.net%2Fmills-donna%2Fmills-donna-photo-donna-mills-6235130.jpg&size=53.3kB&name=mills-donna-photo-donna-mills-6235130.jpg&rcurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.postershop.fr%2FMills-Donna%2FMills-Donna-Photo-Donna-Mills-6235130.html&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.postershop.fr%2FMills-Donna%2FMills-Donna-Photo-Donna-Mills-6235130.html&p=donna+mills&type=jpeg&no=2&tt=9%2C481&oid=8fc2baa2deb9e86e&tit=mills-donna-photo-donna-mills-6235130.jpg&sigr=12fku47kn&sigi=124a5kavi&sigb=11skk9rck
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Donna Mills! Yes, Mills was dogged by lesbian rumors throughout her career as well.

My God, she was so gorgeous in "Play Misty for Me". I'll never forget the love scene in that movie, with Roberta Flack's "The First Time (Ever I Saw Your Face)" playing the background. As an added bonus, Flack was rumored to be lesbian as well.
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[IMG]http://www.birman.com/maureen/millsdonna02.jpg[/IMG]


YUMMY!!!
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spelunketeria
Dec 23 2008, 06:45 AM
tetris
Dec 23 2008, 01:53 AM
Julie Christie was one of my favorites "maybes" from this era, as well as Beverly D'Angelo, Lauren Hutton, Olivia Newton John, Stephanie Zimbalist, etc - and there is no way Kate Jackson was 100% straight. All of these women apparently fall into the vaguely bisexual category however. What - no full-on lesbians back then? Surely not.



Woah, details? I've never heard this before.
Kids and relationship with Al Pacino are the really only details I know about Bev D'Angelo.
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fultondyke
Jan 1 2009, 06:02 PM
Damn that's a long link. You know to do this:
Donna Mills
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Jan 1 2009, 06:41 PM
spelunketeria
Dec 23 2008, 06:45 AM
tetris
Dec 23 2008, 01:53 AM
Julie Christie was one of my favorites "maybes" from this era, as well as Beverly D'Angelo, Lauren Hutton, Olivia Newton John, Stephanie Zimbalist, etc - and there is no way Kate Jackson was 100% straight. All of these women apparently fall into the vaguely bisexual category however. What - no full-on lesbians back then? Surely not.



Woah, details? I've never heard this before.
Kids and relationship with Al Pacino are the really only details I know about Bev D'Angelo.
The rumor about D'Angelo invovled some kind of infamous public lover's quarrel with Hutton in a parking lot.

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http://z.about.com/d/movies/1/0/j/2/leg28.jpg

Note Ali Larter's expression...
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While she still looks good for an older woman, she was very attractive in her younger days.

I seem to remember gay rumours about her on DL

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?q=candice+bergen+source:life&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcandice%2Bbergen%2Bsource:life%26hl%3Den&imgurl=b065223ab11423da

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Jan 4 2009, 08:43 AM
While she still looks good for an older woman, she was very attractive in her younger days.

I seem to remember gay rumours about her on DL

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?q=candice+bergen+source:life&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcandice%2Bbergen%2Bsource:life%26hl%3Den&imgurl=b065223ab11423da

Wasn't Candice Bergen married to a very famous French director?
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Yes, Louis Malle. On DL someone said it was a fake marriage.
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Jan 4 2009, 09:06 AM
Wasn't Candice Bergen married to a very famous French director?
Louis Malle. She's not gay, just seems like it.
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^ how do you know?
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It's a shame LezAdmin disabled pic posting on the board. It was the coolest thing to see all those great pics comin' at ya.
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The most famous sex symbol to come out in the 70's was Maria Schneider, who proclaimed her bisexuality around 1974. She did take the odd path of saying she had been with more men than women which was seen as a transparent way of saying I'm more into men. However her most famous romance was with heiress Joan Townsend (the famous Asylum case) and she has lived the last 25 or so years with a woman (she refuses to discuss the gender in interviews calling it her own secret). She has defended her description of herself as bisexual in the 70's even though among friends she states she is now unequivocally lesbian calling her long past romances with men a foolish passing fancy.

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/07_02/049schneiderbath_468x356.jpg

with Alain Deloin

http://www32.ocn.ne.jp/~whitewine/delon300.jpg

and increasingly more boyish by the time she made The Passenger

http://www.sonyclassics.com/thepassenger/gallery_images/15.jpg



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Jan 4 2009, 05:43 PM
The most famous sex symbol to come out in the 70's was Maria Schneider, who proclaimed her bisexuality around 1974. She did take the odd path of saying she had been with more men than women which was seen as a transparent way of saying I'm more into men. However her most famous romance was with heiress Joan Townsend (the famous Asylum case) and she has lived the last 25 or so years with a woman (she refuses to discuss the gender in interviews calling it her own secret). She has defended her description of herself as bisexual in the 70's even though among friends she states she is now unequivocally lesbian calling her long past romances with men a foolish passing fancy.

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/07_02/049schneiderbath_468x356.jpg

with Alain Delon

http://www32.ocn.ne.jp/~whitewine/delon300.jpg

and increasingly more boyish by the time she made The Passenger

http://www.sonyclassics.com/thepassenger/gallery_images/15.jpg



Well, as screwy as she was, I always felt it had to be TRUE LOVE if you followed your lover right into the nuthouse. There was something deeply touching & loyal about that, and demonstrated that she had the ability to fall madly, passionately in love with a woman, which too many bisexual women can't seem to be able to do. I'm not at all surprised that she's a big old dyke now.

Anyone have a recent pic of her? My guess is that she didn't age well because she was a drug addict at various times in her life. Klaus Kinski in his autobiography recalls working with her on a film in the mid 70s or so and she was so strung out & unprofessional he had to restrain himself from punching her in the face. Yeah, well, he had issues too. He was an asshole.
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I worked with Klaus a few years before his death and he was a freak. An absolute looney. As for Maria, she looks weathered nowadays but not horrible. She cleaned up decades ago thank to the woman she is still with.
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Jan 4 2009, 07:35 PM
I worked with Klaus a few years before his death and he was a freak.
In what capacity, if you don't mind me asking?
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do any of you retro-experts know anything about these two?

http://www.condenaststore.com/VanityFair/ProdDetail.aspx?prodId=20039
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I hate to say this, but
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Beatrice Lillie got married and had a kid but was a known lesbian. Back then (and even today) that is what you did. She later had a gay male secretary (after her husband died) who procured women for her as she got older.

Hope Williams also had a short marriage (divorce) but was a well known younger woman chaser. Among her purported conquests were Katharine Hepburn.
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That Holland Taylor is gay is fairly common knowledge. But damn, she's one classy broad.
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Jan 5 2009, 02:37 AM
That Holland Taylor is gay is fairly common knowledge. But damn, she's one classy broad.
[IMG]http://http://movies.about.com/library/weekly/aa062701dd.htm[/IMG]






I LOVE her!!! I think her 'patrician' bearing, intelligence, and class is sooooo sexy!
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http://movies.about.com/library/weekly/aa062701dd.htm

oops!
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this thread needs to be bumped.

i want to read more about joan crawford's bisexuality. i think her past relationships with women are the most interesting. especially her infatuation with garbo.
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I never got the impression that Joan Crawford was ever bisexual. I wouldn't rule out a fling or two but a bisexual, doubt it. Although, I can see her do it if it meant getting a great part in a movie.

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I'm a big fan of hers and it's quite clear that she was bisexual. She had much more than just a few flings here and there - and not just to get ahead. She was completely infatuated with some women and didn't handle rejection very well. Many people who knew her said she did enjoy sex with both men and women and may have had more than just a sexual relationship with Barbara Stanwyk.
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Who didn't have a sexual relationship with Barbara Stanwyk.
Any recommendations on bio books on her?

Who else is a lesbo from the 40's? Based on voice alone I would have said Bacall.

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Joan Crawford was DEFINITELY bi!!! She had a long affair with Dorothy Arzner (a director), and it was rumored that alot of Betty Davis' distaste/discomfort with Crawford stemmed from the fact that Joan was bi. Betty hated Joan, and the filming of "Whatever Happened To Baby Jane?" was legendary for the degree of bitchiness and cattiness between two female stars (it has been said that Joan had once propositioned the very straight Ms. Davis, was rebuffed, and thus bad blood existed between the two women).
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Old school bisexuals more like it. Most of them swallowed more cock than the gay boys so they're hardly lesbians.


Exactly!
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I don't get the Barbara Stanwyck love here. Is it one person? The chick's acting was one note and stiff, I think Jodie Foster copied her style, on top of that Babs looked like a gay man.
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^ There's a reason why some of these actresses are still remembered today. As far as majority of people go - she was a fine actress.

Anyways...

Ok so obviously there's some Joan Crawford fans. Who are some of the people Joan was linked to? I've never heard her link to anyone before.
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Jul 20 2009, 08:01 PM
^ There's a reason why some of these actresses are still remembered today. As far as majority of people go - she was a fine actress.

Anyways...

Ok so obviously there's some Joan Crawford fans. Who are some of the people Joan was linked to? I've never heard her link to anyone before.
The only people who remember Stanwyck are old queens,film buffs, and old lesbians looking for old lesbians. The rest of the world have absolutely no idea who Stanwyck was.
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As a 24 year old, I had not idea I was an "old lesbian". Who knew?
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Ok so obviously there's some Joan Crawford fans. Who are some of the people Joan was linked to? I've never heard her link to anyone before

From what I've read, she's been linked to Barbara Stanwyk, Marlene Dietrich, Greta Garbo, and several lesser known actresses. She had a huge crush on Garbo. And Marilyn Monroe said that she had a one time affair with Joan but it never happened again because it was only an experiment that made her realize that sleeping with women wasn't for her.
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The only people who remember Stanwyck are old queens,film buffs, and old lesbians looking for old lesbians. The rest of the world have absolutely no idea who Stanwyck was.
...I'm 15 years old and knew about Stanwyk before I even knew I was gay. So I'm definitely no "old lesbian".
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I rented another silent film called Pandora's Box (1929) and it had a lesbian in it. Yay!, I know.

She played a typical lesbian - would do anything for the leading lady. She got her out of jail, gave her money, let her borrow her passaport and even (almost) slept with a man because she begged her too*. Oh and she also wore a bowtie, cause...that's how you can tells she's a lesbian, of course.

I'll look around for some photos since I didn't get any screenshots. I sent it back before I realized I forgot to do it.




*She really put up a fight over this. I was at least glad to see the huge reluctance to do it.
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During the making of Grand Hotel, Garbo worked from 9:00 to 5:00; Crawford started rehearsing at 5:00 P.M. and shot her scenes between 6:00 in the evening and 2:00 in the morning. Their separate worlds collided on the staircase of the women's building. Standing back with a friend as Greta came up the stairs, Crawford thought that she had timed everything correctly – and ended up bumping right into Garbo. “I got down two steps too soon, and she just came round and she grabbed me and this magnificent face looked into mine ...”

The actress was dumbstruck as Greta took her face in her hands and told her, “I am so sorry we are not working together. It's so sad; in the same film, and no scenes. What a pity!” The effect was so mesmerizing, Crawford admitted, her knees weakened.


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Does Jane Lynch have a girlfriend? Jeez you never hear anything.
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Has anyone read anything about Jean Arthur being a lesbian? She did many comedies inthe forties and played the mom in SHANE.
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You can't really say that Joan was linked to Garbo because they never actually fucked. Joan had a crush nothing came of it. Garbo wasn't stupid.
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I never said Garbo and Crawford were romantically linked, but I think the telling thing about the story I cited above, was the reaction that these women had to each other...Lesbians readily recognize the sexual attraction that was there, but I am still amazed at the straights that hear such stories and are obliviousto, or just don't want to recognize the truth about the bi/homosexuality of many celebrities.
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Sep 23 2008, 08:05 AM
thanks 6:34 - I hadn't heard of some of them. Now I will look them up

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wasnt spencer tracey hepburns great love


Depending on which biography you read of Hepburn, she was straight, bi, or lesbian.

The last biography - which I enjoyed tilted toward lesbian, mostly because of her long friendship/relationships with women.

I don't really get the Spencer Tracy thing. It seems strange. He seemed like a depressed drunk who was not even nice to her. Some people think it was sexual, some think platonic, some think made up for PR purposes. It was strange, whatever it was.
Katharine was using Spencer as a beard. He couldn't leave his wife, because they were Catholic, and Kate used Spence as her cover, while galavanting around with sexy brunettes. I don't believe they ever had sex, and I don't believe Kate's first marriage was consummated.
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Why did I find this thread so many years too late. I had become jaded and cynical, due to a long relationship with someone who didn't read, had no interest in anything "old" (pre-80s!), and only watched reality television.

No, I won't be entering into a lavendar marriage, I am going to find a sister who looks like Garbo, who wants a ripened Ava Gardner.
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Jun 18 2012, 11:42 PM
Why did I find this thread so many years too late.
I'm also way late to this thread. I enjoyed reading it all! Fascinating details that I will surely look into more.

I was especially intrigued/confused by the post regarding Debbie Reynolds and her husband and kids being locked in the attic while she was engaging in sex. I need to re- read that bit. The part about the woman dying and being stuffed was particularly unbelievable.

Also, who or what does "Divine L" refer to?
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Oct 31 2008, 09:04 PM
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Oct 31 2008, 03:22 PM
Btw that visual of Debbie R and Julie Andrews getting blasted on drugs and doing the dirty is simply surreal. And somewhat disturbing. Oh lord! If Eddie Fisherever got a hold of that story...
If you think that's bad, wait until you hear about the time that the Divine L was having "dinner" (euphemism for 'hot lesbian sex', no doubt) at Deb R's house (the hubby and the kids were locked in the attic, you can't have straights cramping your style) when at a very 'crucial' moment during the, aham, 'dinner' she was seized by searing chest pains that caused her to howl so violently that her lipstick ravaged teeth were illuminated nightmarishly by the candle light.... as the poor, panicking Deb tried to raise an oxygen mask to L's wheezing, gin soaked scrawl of a mouth, L gurgled her last and choked it, promptly smashing her overly made up face into the 'gravy float'!

Deb R ended up wishing she had just stuck with a plain old takeaway and some straight company.
^^ this one... Wtf is this about?
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I have just read this thread from start to finish and loved it..many thanks for the research everyone has done.
However I can't believe that no one has mentioned the fabulous Doris Day!!
I've read so many rumours about her over the years but of course when I looked for an article or mention just now so I could show it here I couldn't find anything!

Posted Image
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Anything on Lauren Becall?
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Hey!....I'm so surprised no one has mentioned Elizabeth Montgomery of 'Bewitched' Fame, she was such a 'Big Dyke'!
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Does any one know if Capucine and Garbo "got together"? I know Capucine had a huge crush on Garbo. They both had the same agent, Charles Feldman. When Garbo visited Klosters Switzerland in later years I'm fairly sure Capucine visited Garbo. C was living in Lausanne Switzerland.

Would be very curious to know more about the actresses of old Hollywood who Capucine nailed.
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So, I'm on a total Joan Crawford kick lately. I find her very compelling because of the complexity and vulnerability of her person. She was a sexually voracious, alchoholic, bitchy, mean, abusive, funny, and generous germaphobe, it could be said. She had a horrible childhood and it seems to have affected her own maternal abilities. I'm not sure I believe all the Mommie Dearest stories but I definintely believe that she shouldn't have been a mother.

Anyways, here is an entry from a Joan Crawford website about her bisexuality:
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In EB, author Lawrence Quirk says Joan slept with several fellow chorus girls while in NYC, and relates that Joan's press agent Jerry Asher told him Joan had a crush on early co-star Anita Page, and actually slept with Dorothy Sebastian, Gwen Lee, May Clark, and Barbara Stanwyck. (Stanwyck's press agent Helen Ferguson is quoted as saying "There is no doubt in my mind that Joan and Barbara were intimate on more than one occasion.")

Asher also said Joan was interested in Bette Davis in the 1930s (though not at the time Baby Jane was filming, which Davis claimed), when Davis had eyes for Joan's husband Franchot Tone. Said Joan: "Franchot isn't interested in Bette, but I wouldn't mind giving her a poke if I was in the right mood. Wouldn't that be funny?" Quirk also says that in her autobiography, Martha Raye claims she slept with Joan when they were both involved with the USO during WWII.

In DF, author Shaun Considine quotes director Vincent Sherman (himself aWith Marlene Dietrich. Joan-paramour) as saying, "When we were at Columbia [early '50s] there was a girl who was always hanging around [Joan]. We often wondered about her." Considine also quotes actress Louise Brooks that Joan was "one of those girls who went back and forth." And quotes photographer Cecil Beaton re Joan's frequent crushes: "At one time she was insatiably interested in Dietrich...Then she moved on to Lilyan Tashman, followed by the chief of her idols--Greta Garbo."

In CM, author Jane Ellen Wayne relates that when, on the set of '32's Grand Hotel, Greta Garbo took Joan's face in her hands after a chance meeting on-set, With her cousin Betty Jean.Joan was thrilled and later said, "If there was ever a time in my life when I might have become a lesbian, that was it." (Joan mentions the rather sexual excitement of this meeting in her April '73 Town Hall appearance.)

In LW, author Fred Guiles says that Marilyn Monroe told her press agent that Joan had made a drunken pass at her one afternoon while Monroe was trying on clothes at Joan's house. In tapes made for her psychiatrist shortly before her death, published in 2003 in a book by Matthew Smith, Marilyn said of Joan: Oh yes, Crawford. We went to her house from a cocktail party, feeling no pain. We went to the bedroom and went down on each other. Crawford had a gigantic orgasm and shrieked like a maniac. Next time I saw her she wanted another round. I told her straight out I didn't enjoy it much, doing it with a woman. After I turned her down she became spiteful.

In MD, Christina says that a former nurse later told her that Joan had frequently propositioned her. Christina says she already knew about her mother's "lesbian proclivities" and so wasn't surprised at the news, but doesn't elaborate.


And from the same website, the correct stories regarding Tallulah Bankhead:
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Upon meeting Joan after her marriage to Doug Fairbanks, Jr., in 1929, Tallulah greeted her, "Darling, you're divine. I've had an affair with your husband. You'll be next." At the 1998 Christina Crawford and Lypsinka show at NYC's Town Hall, critic Rex Reed told a story about Joan attending a party for Tallulah and briefly upstaging her, making a begowned grand entrance dusted in gold glitter. Tallulah stormed off, but later re-emerged on her balcony, stark naked with gold glitter in her pubic hair, announcing "Guess who just went down on me?"


And from an old article that dates all the way back to 1932 about her rocky first marriage, (note the last sentence):
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Joan, according to "them," is even busier cheating! She is "madly...crazily...frantically in love with a leading man" (whisper: C---k G-b-e) and "so madly does she care for the gentleman that their love scenes in their latest picture are printed on asbestos!" Or, if you don't care for that, do you prefer the story of Joan's hot and heavy romance with a Fairbanks house guest? Which house guest? Oh, either one of the boys who have visited them within the last six months. Another rumor concerning Joan is so obviously malicious and untrue that it shall not be mentioned here


All of the above is from this awesome website: http://www.joancrawfordbest.com/menupage.htm
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And my two favorite Joan Youtube videos:

Joan started out as a dancer in her movies:


Home movie footage:


I hope this works as I haven't used Flash before.
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Another rumor concerning Joan is so obviously malicious and untrue that it shall not be mentioned here
Love it! :D
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I find her very compelling because of the complexity and vulnerability of her person. She was a sexually voracious, alchoholic, bitchy, mean, abusive, funny, and generous germaphobe,
You forgot the coat hangers! :D
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Stanwyck's press agent Helen Ferguson is quoted as saying "There is no doubt in my mind that Joan and Barbara were intimate on more than one occasion."
That Ferguson dame certainly seemed to know all the details! Could it have been because it was a threesome? ;)
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Apr 17 2013, 10:42 PM
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I find her very compelling because of the complexity and vulnerability of her person. She was a sexually voracious, alchoholic, bitchy, mean, abusive, funny, and generous germaphobe,
You forgot the coat hangers! :D
Well, that might fit under mean and abusive, ha ha.

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Apr 17 2013, 10:46 PM
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Stanwyck's press agent Helen Ferguson is quoted as saying "There is no doubt in my mind that Joan and Barbara were intimate on more than one occasion."
That Ferguson dame certainly seemed to know all the details! Could it have been because it was a threesome? ;)
No idea:)

Apparently, Barbara used to seek refuge with Joan when her husband got abusive because they lived next door to each other. I read that the only two pictues Joan had in her apartment when she died were of Barbara Stanwyck and John F. Kennedy, but I haven't found any sources for it. But if so that might imply that Joan and Barbara had an actual relationship. But then again, there is also a taped phone conversation between Barbara and an old gossip journalist where Baraba absolutely TEARS Joan a new one, (you can hear it on Youtube). Bad breakup?
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Apparently, Barbara used to seek refuge with Joan when her husband got abusive because they lived next door to each other.
They lived next door to each other? How frightfully convenient! :)
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there is also a taped phone conversation between Barbara and an old gossip journalist where Baraba absolutely TEARS Joan a new one, (you can hear it on Youtube). Bad breakup?
Could be! Have you got a link for that by any chance?
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Apr 19 2013, 01:54 AM
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Apparently, Barbara used to seek refuge with Joan when her husband got abusive because they lived next door to each other.
They lived next door to each other? How frightfully convenient! :)
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there is also a taped phone conversation between Barbara and an old gossip journalist where Baraba absolutely TEARS Joan a new one, (you can hear it on Youtube). Bad breakup?
Could be! Have you got a link for that by any chance?
Here is the link to the Youtube video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=en5tX5Yf_nQ

Actually it is five different conversations involving Joan, Barbara and an old time gossip journalist called Shirley Eder. Barbara and Shirley totally act nice to Joan in the first conversation then proceed to slag her off in the third conversation. Also, one of them is an interview with Joan in her Limo while she is flat out plastered after having had lunch with Shirley- it's kind of hilarious and heartbreaking at the same time.

But damn, that Shirley Eder was a fake bitch.
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Dec 22 2008, 01:16 AM
fultondyke
Dec 22 2008, 01:06 AM

Quoting limited to 2 levels deepBetter Than Chocolate:

Julie Christie...
She makes me feel
misty...
i remember lauren hutton being asked about a rumer that she julie christie had an affair in an inteview on 20/20. she denied it.
Ah, Christie/Hutton. A couple of years back, Entertainment Lawyer (the Crazy Days and Nights guy) ran a blind item about a foreign-born Oscar-winner and an "A-List model turned C-List actress" who had an affair back in the day and who were "tied together" by an interesting movie role. When somebody dug up the fact that Julie Christie had originally been cast in American Gigolo, in the role that eventually went to Lauren, it became clear that this was the long-running rumor Enty was talking about.

That prompted me to write one of my favorite research posts on L-Chat, one I had thought was lost when the board was wiped. But thanks to the magic of The Wayback Machine, here it is:
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As far as "tied together" (in the BI) goes, apparently in American Gigolo, Richard Gere's character likes to handcuff his sex partners' hands behind their backs during the act; the woman he is accused of murdering is found (beaten, raped, bludgeoned to death and) handcuffed in this fashion. So that's probably the reason for that phrase. Christie/Hutton ftw!

Here's Lauren's denial, from a 1975 profile in People (wherein they mention that designer Halston called her "Perhaps the greatest mannequin in history", so, yeah, definitely "A-List" as a model), linked in the "Hollywood Closet" thread:

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More unlikely was last year's persistent gossip that Hutton was living with screen star Julie Christie. The reports of course reached Lauren. "Oh Julie, you mean 'my love,'" says Hutton flippantly. "I haven't had the pleasure of-meeting her yet, except once six years ago when she was with Warren Beatty. I first heard about 'us' when I was in Mexico, and I thought it was humorous. Then when I came back to New York, even old friends were asking me about this house we supposedly bought together in New Jersey. I mean, it was embarrassing—New Jersey!"

But what's interesting is that the article goes on to talk about Lauren's "real" "secret love":
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Lauren's actual love life is a far better kept secret, centered around "mystery man" Bob Williamson, a freelance stock speculator she has lived with for the past 10 years. "His privacy is my privacy. He doesn't want to be known as my old man," says Hutton by way of explaining why only her closest friends have ever met him. When photographers are around, they separate and flee. He refuses to be interviewed about her. Williamson is her friend, occasional guru, sometime business adviser and her only lover: "He's my mate," she says point blank. "I may go out with other men friends—but I don't screw them."

Ah, but once Bob's gone, Lauren sings a different tale. From a 2002 profile of Julie Christie in The Mail on Sunday:

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[The gossip] involves Christie and former cover girl Lauren Hutton, who has told America's celebrity bible Vanity Fair an extraordinary story about the two women - a vicious lie perpetrated by Hutton's lover and business manager, Bob Williamson.

Lauren only learned of this betrayal when a friend visited her in hospital in south Nevada, where she was recovering from a horrific motorcycle accident [in October, 2000] in which she had almost died, and told her about a rumour circulating throughout Hollywood.

According to the gossip, Hutton, in a highly emotional state, had crashed her motorbike at high speed because a lesbian affair she was having with Christie had gone wrong.

Although untrue, the tale had spread like wildfire - adding to previous rumours about the two women that had been doing the rounds for some years.

The fire of scurrilous gossip would not be extinguished, no matter how hard Hutton tried.

Aww, poor Lauren! When did she come out as bi, allegedly? She still seem to have been working hard to stay in the closet, as recently as a decade ago.

That Julie Christie article makes it sound as though Bob Williamson was still around in 2000, spreading the rumor. Not so, Bob died in '97; it's just that after he was gone, Lauren decided to throw him under the bus. From a 2001 New York Daily News article excerpting the Vanity Fair piece mentioned above:

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Before the crash, Hutton had been in a deep depression over revelations that her live-in boyfriend of 20 years, Bob Williamson, was a philanderer who spent all of her money, she tells Vanity Fair. Hutton says she "used to sign entire checkbooks for Bob; he would pay everything. I never paid a bill till I was 47."

The former cover girl believes that if she'd deposited all the money Williamson blew, she'd be worth about $30 million. Hutton admits, "all my money from those years is gone."

She also claims that when she told Williamson she wanted to have children at age 41, he fired back, "I don't ever want to ever have children. I'm your baby.' That's when I started to unravel," she confesses.

It wasn't until after Williamson's death four years ago that Hutton discovered the man she called "Bob God" had been spreading a rumor that she was gay. "Apparently one of his girlfriends confronted him about me and he said, 'I'm bearding for her. She's a lesbian and she's going with Julie Christie.' I had never even met Julie Christie," Hutton declares.

No, Lauren, don't you remember? You met Julie ONCE, in 1969, when she was with Warren Beatty. (At least, that's what you said in 1975.) Interesting how the denial gets more vehement as Lauren ages; also interesting to know that she knows the phrase is "bearding".

Oh, and if you've ever wondered how far people will go to cover up their friends' gay rumors, take a look at the very next piece of "rumor-squashing" on that Daily News page:

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MARTIN'S MECCA

Gay fans may dream of Ricky Martin. But one of his former backup dancers says that's all they'll get to do.

For almost four years, Mecca Dyas shared a stage with Martin. Offstage, say friends, they were doing the mattress mambo - until he supposedly broke Mecca's heart.

"This gay stuff that keeps coming out, that is so annoying, because, I'm sorry, I know myself. God, Ricky digs women," Dyas said.

But she turned shy when we asked about the exact nature of their relationship: "I don't want to talk about Ricky. He lives his life, and I live mine. Ricky is a great person. He's a sweetheart, and I'm so proud of him."

ROFL!

In response to the question I posed, the poster who had called Lauren "openly bi" amended herself to say that she was referring to a TV interview where
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the host asked her about her love/sex life and so on. Then she asks her about the men in her life, Lauren interrupts by saying "and women" The interviewer gets stunned and Lauren goes on by saying "Well I don't do that anymore" and goes on rambling about something else.

Looking back on my post two years later, it occurs to me that the late Bob Williamson was almost surely a paid merkin. I mean "freelance stock speculator", really?? I can just see that one at parties: "Oh, no, Bob doesn't work, he just invests in stocks. No, no, he's not a broker, he's freelance. Works from home most of the time." When in reality what Bob did was pay the bills (as noted) and give Lauren cover when she was chasing pussy, it appears. The tale of her parking-lot lovers' spat with Bev D'Angelo fits with that, I'd think.
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Very interesting, Research Girl. Keep'em coming.
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Thank you. I ws going through the archived pages of pre-wipe L-Chat's Old Hollywood thread, and someone there said that the interview where Lauren accidentally outed herself as bi was a CBS Morning Show piece.

And I notice that the A-List calls her a lesbian (or "L______"), plain and simple. Gee, a pity she's never met Julie Christie then, isn't it?
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Mar 6 2013, 08:06 PM
Does any one know if Capucine and Garbo "got together"? I know Capucine had a huge crush on Garbo. They both had the same agent, Charles Feldman. When Garbo visited Klosters Switzerland in later years I'm fairly sure Capucine visited Garbo. C was living in Lausanne Switzerland.

Would be very curious to know more about the actresses of old Hollywood who Capucine nailed.
That's interesting, I've never heard about her crush on Garbo, but I don't know much about Capucine in general, though I've seen quite a few of her movies.

She was the love interest of Stanwyck's lesbian madam character in Walk on the Wild Side, full movie here: https://archive.org/details/WalkOnTheWildSide1962

And played a lesbian scientist developing a new form of mustard gas during WW1 in Fraulein Doktor which you can watch on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1gUUMI2xk8 (her character doesn't show up until 32 minutes in).

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What's the tea on ava and lena. I've heard they were an item off and on for years, and frank didn't like lena because he knew something was going on between them, when frank and ava were still married.
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