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| Help identify three old photo's | |
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| Topic Started: 23 Apr 2009, 11:15 PM (782 Views) | |
| john new | 23 Apr 2009, 11:15 PM Post #1 |
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Porter
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On the SLS website I have posted three images of miniature steam locomotives taken probably in the 1950s (One is definately dated to 1954) newly presented to our Library Collection. What we know, or suspect, is given alongside the photo's and if anyone can help fill in the gaps your knowledge most welcome. Even if you don't think you will have any info to offer the photo's are of historic interest. See SLS What When Where page Notes (1) This page is a new one to the SLS site. The outgoing links work but as yet there are no incoming one's! (2) I also apologise for the multiple post into several different fora but not all readers will be signed up to all the groups. Edited by john new, 23 Apr 2009, 11:36 PM.
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John V Chair & Webmaster Wessex Assoc' Mod' Rly' Clubs. http://www.wamrc-railway-modellers.org.uk/ | Web & Publicity Officer for Stephenson Locomotive Soc. - http://www.stephensonloco.org.uk | York Model Rly Show - http://www.yorkshow.org.uk | Waggonway Research Circle http://www.waggonways.fsnet.co.uk 
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| Andrew | 24 Apr 2009, 07:33 AM Post #2 |
CME, Bodgit & Scarper Engineering.
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The first photo is definitely 'Prince Charles' in his original guise as a 'Black 5' but is now 'Prince William' and is running at Evesham Vale Light Railway. I've got a photo of him in the same condition running on the Fairbourne Railway after he left Dudley Zoo. Which would mean the gauge is 15". |
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| david colley | 24 Apr 2009, 08:19 AM Post #3 |
Instigator of Waving.
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The first photo is indeed Prince Charles. Built in 1950 as a 4-6-0 by trevor guest, ran at Dudley Zoo until 1957, went into storage until 1960 when it was loaned to Fairbourne until 1962, when it went to Stourbridge for rebuilding by Guest and came out a 4-6-2, following which came a few years in storage before being bought by Bill Mcalpine in (????) and went on to run at Bleinhiem Palace as Sir Winston Churchill. Now resides at Evesham with J and H Shackell. The second photo you seem to have covered, but I have a photo of a very similar loco, but is stated as being built by southsea miniature railway in the late fourties for the park in Poole, Dorset. the name then was Vangaurd? Even numbered 1001, but the smokebox door is hinged the wrong way? Gauge is 10 1/4" The third photo is the Saint from Hastings, It was built in 1938 by Twinning. AFAIK it was there untill the late seventies, then went to Stapleford for a rebuild then into service alongside their Jubilee. The gauge is 10 1/4" Hope this helps a little, i'm sure someone will be more than happy to correct all my mistakes  Dave. |
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"Mister, where does the petrol go?" What do they teach kids in school these days??? Check out the website, Sherwood Forest Railway plug, plug, plug..... | |
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| john new | 24 Apr 2009, 04:46 PM Post #4 |
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Porter
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Firstly thank you's to Andrew, David Colley, Richard Pearson, Chris Krupa, Jez Kirkwood and Simon Moore, SteveK, PLD and Stationmaster for the items of information supplied either directly to me or through one of the on-line fora. As a result the information on the SLS What When Where page has been updated this afternoon. The remaining significant vagueness is around 1001 at the Littlestone Miniature Railway plus the original builder/date of 5751 (now Prince William). If more information surfaces I will keep you posted with an update. |
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John V Chair & Webmaster Wessex Assoc' Mod' Rly' Clubs. http://www.wamrc-railway-modellers.org.uk/ | Web & Publicity Officer for Stephenson Locomotive Soc. - http://www.stephensonloco.org.uk | York Model Rly Show - http://www.yorkshow.org.uk | Waggonway Research Circle http://www.waggonways.fsnet.co.uk
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| david colley | 24 Apr 2009, 07:23 PM Post #5 |
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Instigator of Waving.
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With regards to the littlestone miniature railway, isn't there a place on the RH&DR called Littlestone-on-sea? This would coincide with Lt Col R B Turrell, who bought Greenly's cottage near the line and ran a couple of railway's around the area? |
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"Mister, where does the petrol go?" What do they teach kids in school these days??? Check out the website, Sherwood Forest Railway plug, plug, plug..... | |
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| craiggluyas | 24 Apr 2009, 07:41 PM Post #6 |
Director
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Prince William / Winston Churchill / Prince Charles was built in 1946, but waited until 1948 to be named and have plates attached, hence the name original name of Prince Charles (He was born in 1948). She was renamed Prince William in 1982... Craig |
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Craig Gluyas Talking to one's self is a sign of madness. I talk to my imaginary friend. | |
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| david colley | 24 Apr 2009, 08:05 PM Post #7 |
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Instigator of Waving.
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Thankyou Craig, thought you'd help out. Was she (he) re-built as i've stated, and how long did IT stay at Windmill Farm? Where's Dave H when you need him?!? 
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"Mister, where does the petrol go?" What do they teach kids in school these days??? Check out the website, Sherwood Forest Railway plug, plug, plug..... | |
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| john new | 24 Apr 2009, 09:34 PM Post #8 |
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Porter
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That is the only Littlestone in the gazetteer of my road atlas so I am guessing it is the one. However Googling it only brought up one reference to the Littlestone Miniature Railway, on the 10 1/4 gauge society page closed lines list. |
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John V Chair & Webmaster Wessex Assoc' Mod' Rly' Clubs. http://www.wamrc-railway-modellers.org.uk/ | Web & Publicity Officer for Stephenson Locomotive Soc. - http://www.stephensonloco.org.uk | York Model Rly Show - http://www.yorkshow.org.uk | Waggonway Research Circle http://www.waggonways.fsnet.co.uk
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| RichardP | 24 Apr 2009, 10:12 PM Post #9 |
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Guard
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Peter Scotts book about Thameside promenade has some information. 1001 and 1002 were built by G&S (Guest) for use at the Crown Wychbold then used at Dudley Zoo. Harold Judd bought the 2 locos in 1945 and reopened the Southsea line with them. They were then used in Reading where 1001 became Sir A Montgomery. Robin Butterell in the Ian Allan 1966 Miniature railways says Southern Miniature Railways started at Gosport, moved to Bognor then Southsea originally wth the G&S locos then with 1002 Valiant and 1003 Victory built to the same design as was 1001 Vanguard at Poole (all now at Kirkby Green). There seems to be an inconsistency here probably in Robins account as it's much older.
There was a previous thread on this starting with a postcard I think, but search still isn't working. Was it Turrel or Tyrell? Richard |
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| Nick Tozer | 24 Apr 2009, 10:13 PM Post #10 |
Chief Engineer
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Littlestone-on-Sea is to the seaward side of New Romney station and indeed the name was used by the RHDR for this station once upon a time. New Romney is about the same distance inland of the RHDR station. George Barlow was the driver of 'Green Goddess' for many years, having joined the RHDR shortly after the war he spent so long driving one engine that he made the Guinness Book of Records. He was also honoured by the Queen. He was an authority on miniature railways as well as an accomplished engineman in the wider field and he made it into the book 'Ace Engineman' published by his friend Nelson. |
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| daveholroyde | 25 Apr 2009, 07:50 PM Post #11 |
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Ticket Collector
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Dave H calling PRINCE CHARLES built G& S Light Eng 1949 ( 1946 plates put on at Fairbourne and are wrong ) as 4-6-0 new to Dudley Zoo as 5751, later named PRINCE CHARLES Fairbourne /60 G&SLE 9/61, where reb to 4-6-2 1968 Bill McAlpine after 6/70 RH&DR 12/70 BIll McAlpine 4/74 Blenhim Palace 4/75, as 5751 SIR WINSTON CHURCHILL 3/82 Steamtown as 5751 PRINCE WILLIAM 8/95 East Lancs Rly 5/98 Windmill Farm 1/03 Evesham I couldnt access the pics, but Colonel Tyrrell had a 10 1/4" line at Littlestone on Sea with a Carland Royal Scot and G&SLE 4-4-2 SIR A MONTGOMERY. Could someone send me the 3rd pic of the SMR or G&SLE 4-4-2 to look at pleeze ? Cheers , Dave |
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| john new | 25 Apr 2009, 08:33 PM Post #12 |
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Porter
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Thanks for info Dave. Been at our AGM all day so not seen this until now, The picture page is working at present as I have just tested it. Full url is http://www.stephensonloco.org.uk/sls_what_when_where.htm Any problems send me a pm. |
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John V Chair & Webmaster Wessex Assoc' Mod' Rly' Clubs. http://www.wamrc-railway-modellers.org.uk/ | Web & Publicity Officer for Stephenson Locomotive Soc. - http://www.stephensonloco.org.uk | York Model Rly Show - http://www.yorkshow.org.uk | Waggonway Research Circle http://www.waggonways.fsnet.co.uk
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| Nick Tozer | 25 Apr 2009, 11:45 PM Post #13 |
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Chief Engineer
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As the current identity of 1001 hasn't been made clear in this thread, and because the 1001 number seems to be causing confusion, can we please be clear that the loco in the SLS thread is NOT the 1001 or even 1002 currently at the ELR but is 1908 Ernest Henry Upton. Nick |
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| john new | 26 Apr 2009, 09:27 AM Post #14 |
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Porter
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Nick Tozer wrote -
As per the page on the SLS website, and repeated in posts above, the engine being enquired about is 1001 Sir A Montgomery as we have the photo showing her (him?) at Littlestone. This is as per the details recorded on the reverse of the print which also has a reference number on the back providing a date for the photo no later than March 1956. The Eastleigh Lakeside Rly (ELR) website states this 1001 is there BUT also that they have rebuilt, renamed and numbered her (him?) and the curerent identity is = 1908 Ernest Henry Upton. The ELR website also states the engine had run at Weymouth, but gives no dates, and has an "as now" photo of 1908. So we appear to have -
1937 to ???? - Crown Wychbold - Number 1001 ???? to 1945 - Dudley Zoo Railway 1945 to ???? - Southsea ???? to ???? - Reading (Where 1001 was named Sir A Montgomery) ???? to ???? - Littlestone (Photo taken at the LMR no later than March 1956) ???? to 1990 - Weymouth (Did it run on BOTH the Weymouth lines or just the Westham/Radipole lakeside line ?*) 1990 to 2000 - in storage out of use 2000 to 2002 - Eastleigh Lakeside Railway 2002 to 2005 - ELR under new owners being rebuilt and then renamed 2005 to date - ELR running in rebuilt form as 1908 Ernest Henry Upton. Once again thanks for the information supplied and can any one replace any of the remaining question marks? *Original Weymouth line closed in 1982. The new incarnation as the Weymouth Bay Railway at Lodmoor opened in 1983. Both 10 1/4" gauge. PS - Edited for spelling and clarity! Edited by john new, 26 Apr 2009, 09:38 AM.
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John V Chair & Webmaster Wessex Assoc' Mod' Rly' Clubs. http://www.wamrc-railway-modellers.org.uk/ | Web & Publicity Officer for Stephenson Locomotive Soc. - http://www.stephensonloco.org.uk | York Model Rly Show - http://www.yorkshow.org.uk | Waggonway Research Circle http://www.waggonways.fsnet.co.uk
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| RichardP | 26 Apr 2009, 01:12 PM Post #15 |
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Guard
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Most of my information about 1001 came from Peter Scotts Book: A History of the Thames Side Promenade Miniature Railways. There is an excerpt on google books, the DZR is on page 25. The details of the locos is on page52 which is not in the extract. To summarise: Wychbold opened 11/09/37 Dudley Zoo opened 14/07/1938 Harold Judds ownership of Southsea ended at the end of the 1951 season. !001 and !002 purchased by Maurice Densham North Tawton whether direct from Harold Judds estate orvia another owner is not stated. 1001 left by 1956, no further information until Eastleigh. 1002 left 1956/57 later ran at Carlyon Bay Sold by 1995 privately owned in Cornwall Attached scan of a Carlyon Bay postcard. Richard
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