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| Dougal [Merged] | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: 18 Apr 2009, 09:28 PM (2,171 Views) | |
| Murray Tremellen | 21 Apr 2009, 08:47 PM Post #16 |
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Director
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When you say bigger, do you mean larger diameter or just longer? Personally I think it seems a shame to fit a larger boiler, I fear it will rather spoil her looks
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| evilatco | 21 Apr 2009, 09:13 PM Post #17 |
Ticket Collector
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Mmmmmmm time to go up there again the new boiler should work wonders for the priming problems
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Kind Regards Mark http://www.flickr.com/photos/24731347@N07/ | |
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| Andrew | 21 Apr 2009, 11:47 PM Post #18 |
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CME, Stackton Tressel Light Railway.
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Thanks for the image Richard, it is for my own use only. I just wanted to study it in greater detail and your original image is great. My thoughts on the boiler replacement... I would very much suspect that a larger boiler would be in length only. First, there is very little room between the tanks for a larger diameter without moving the tanks. Second, an increase in diameter would entail much work to the saddle which in turn, would entail work to the steam and exhaust passages. If the saddle and cylinders are castings and not prefabricated then this is almost an impossibility without new castings. As to whether Dougal's new boiler will spoil his lines is only ever a question of individual perspective. Most steam locomotives go through a development phase. The 'Big Four' would just build a new version of the class but these days we very rarely have the money or opportunity to start a new version. The Ffestiniog Railway is a good example; Linda has been progressively rebuilt in an effort to improve her performance, rectify design flaws, increase fuel capacities and give better ride qualities. She is now a far cry from the original loco and with the possible exception of her frames it's doubtful if there is much of the original left. However, these 'improvements' were carried out as time and money permitted, if the FR had the money when it was needed they would not have made progressive changes to a loco that was not really ideal for the job in the first place. In fact, when the funding was available they did build exactly what they needed incorporating all the design features that had been evolved over the years. I am of course referring to 'David Lloyd George'. So applying the same logic to Dougal. For whatever reasons he was built to a given design and delivered to the new owners, whether he performed to their full expectations is open to debate. I would suspect he was OK otherwise he would not have been used or sold on. He was neither. Would the owners have made any changes if they had the time or money? His current owners needed to make certain changes from the outset, I'm guessing that a battery power compressor has been fitted under the drivers seat (only guess work on my part). The next obvious change is the need for more space on the footplate, easily solved by the addition of a tender, the tender also has the bonus of greater fuel capacities plus increased room for the compressor. When a new boiler becomes necessary, any shortfalls with the existing boiler would be addressed. I would guess that a longer boiler with a larger firebox is thought to be necessary. Remember that there is now the room on the footplate for a larger firebox because of the new tender. If I had any input with the new boiler I would include some of the improvements found on the Exmoor built engines. The regulator mounted on the side of dome and not in it, for example. The point is, these are all progressive changes, the owners of Dougal will eventually end up with their own version of 'St Egwin'. There's nothing wrong with this and I'm sure that if those concerned had the funding they would probably prefer a second St Egwin and Dougal in his original condition. However using my argument we would probably end up with a Dougal in original condition, but that no one would be comfortable using because of the limitations of the original design. OF COURSE. I MIGHT BE VERY WRONG... And please bare in mind that this is only my point of view. Edited by Andrew, 21 Apr 2009, 11:57 PM.
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| timbgray64 | 22 Apr 2009, 06:17 AM Post #19 |
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Driver
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AFAIK it is a larger diameter, as there is room between the side tanks and the original boiler |
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Tim www.youtube.com/timbgray64 www.flickr.com/photos/timbgray64/ | |
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| craiggluyas | 22 Apr 2009, 08:41 AM Post #20 |
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Director
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Andrew, There are a great deal of debates about on "original" condition, many on here. Miniature railway locos, like their full size counterparts, are built to work, to do a job. However, unlike the steam locomotives around today on preserved lines, their job is generally not to create an illusion of the past, but to run a service. For this they are very similar to Main line steam locos, modified as required to maintain their ability to do the job (Air braking, TPWS, OTMR to name but a few modifications required to run on the main lines). On miniature locos this may require additions to allow braking, improve reliability, inprove steaming, reduce maintainence, all of which may drastically change the appearance of a loco, and for this Dougal is a great example. The tender was added for 2 reasons - 1) The cab was tiny and very uncomfortable for people above 6' and 2) Water and coal capacity was so limited that a refill was required after each trip. The current boiler is not too bad, but needs working hard and is on the edge at all times. It is also in need of some rectification work in the near future, so the owners have taken the decision to purchase a new boiler and increase the dia as much as is practical to improve its capacity. Similar work is underwat on Mountaineer at Cleethorpes to improve the efficiency of the cylinders. That loco has already been massivly rebuilt several times through its life to increase the size of various components, including the boiler! Dougal will never end up like St Egwin! The cylinders are much smaller (about 4" dia x 5" stroke versus 5" x 7") with smaller wheels (12" versus 14" dia). However, it will end up a better loco to operate, very important when you are sat in it potentially every day for 6 weeks at summer! Craig PS - Axle driven compressor with battery compressor as backup when it was a tank engine! First time the battery compressor went off under my bum I wondered what was happening! Edited by craiggluyas, 22 Apr 2009, 08:53 AM.
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Craig Gluyas Talking to one's self is a sign of madness. I talk to my imaginary friend. | |
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| Andrew | 22 Apr 2009, 09:47 AM Post #21 |
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CME, Stackton Tressel Light Railway.
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Hi Craig, Very interesting stuff, thanks for finding the time to reply to my prattles... I find the whole subject of engine enhancement fascinating, probably due to the fact that it was not really a consideration when I was at Didcot. If a 1930's pannier tank could not do the job properly then there must be something seriously wrong with the design evolution at Swindon...... Something I also actively promoted at the GWS was then need to try and preserve original equipment, not just cut up a cab roof, for example, because it would not fit the mainline loading gauge, but to preserve the original and build a new roof for your current needs. Not something which went down to well, I might add. Just another factor that resolved my reasons to quit Don't get me wrong, I'm not a 'WE WILL PRESERVE THIS OBJECT IN ITS ORIGINAL CONDITION AT ALL COSTS' radical. I just believe that if your trying to preserve something from the past then you should make every effort to do so and not just cut the corners when it suits you.... The fact that I was promoting this attitude at Didcot is probably the reason why I have become so fascinated with the subject of engine enhancement and improvement. I would dearly love to have had a go but could not be seen to be promoting it.... I am finding it fascinating watching the process as it happens to Dougal.
Here I was not suggesting that Dougal would end up a copy of St Egwin, instead if feel that he will look more like what he is, a beefed up version of his original self but encapsulating many of the design features that make St Egwin such an obviously good engine to operate. I must also say at this point that from what can be seen to the work carried out on Dougal so far the 'upgrading process' looks absolutely stunning. Congratulations to the designer. If done well, engineering improvements to a locomotive can enhance its appearance rather than detract from it. I believe Dougal encapsulates this. In my opinion, he looks sleeker now than he did as a tank engine. When seen in profile the rear end overhang looked ridiculous and must has ridden atrociously. Once again, thanks for indulging me in these speculative arguments. I find them an interesting distraction into the world of steam after so many years absent. |
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| DavidColley | 22 Apr 2009, 09:48 AM Post #22 |
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Instigator of Waving.
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Miniature locomotives are generally built with one railway in mind. When that railway changes with extensions and divertions, then the locomotive needs are also changed. This leaves the railway with a dilema. Either sell the existing locomotives and buy bigger one's , or try and beef up the existing fleet to cope with these changes. It's always a difficult choice to make, and it varies between railways as the changes are often subtle ones made over many years, but they all seem to catch up at once! I have seen both ways used to varying success and often thought " wouldn't that have been nice left alone..." but at the same time I understand the reasoning as we've done it ourselves to less obvious degree's. I think Evesham have done the right thing and providing that it's done the job, Dougal should provide many more years of reliable service with, most importantly, a comfortable cab for the crew driving her. Still would have been nice to see her re-united with our Longleat coaches before being modded. All the best, Dave |
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Check out the website, Sherwood Forest Railway plug, plug, plug..... | |
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| craiggluyas | 22 Apr 2009, 10:05 AM Post #23 |
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Director
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Hi Andrew! I enjoy these debates - gets me away from the design system for 5 mins! What i was basically trying to say is what David just has. Most miniature railways are not about preserving the past, as preservation centres like Didcot are, but about running trains, hence my link towards the main line railways rather than preserved lines. They are not living museums, but operating railways. As David says, operators are faced with two options, modify or improve, and usually it is cheaper to improve... This said, I am all for preserving the past (I couldn't be a trustee of MRMT if I wasn't) but not at the expense of the present or the future! What is more important to me is to document the changes, record them for history, so when people ask "Why?" in the future the answer is there! Craig |
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Craig Gluyas Talking to one's self is a sign of madness. I talk to my imaginary friend. | |
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| DavidColley | 22 Apr 2009, 12:15 PM Post #24 |
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Instigator of Waving.
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Ah, well said Craig. Documentation of the changes would be great, especially the "when" side of things. A good example would be Tracy Jo's buffers... |
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Check out the website, Sherwood Forest Railway plug, plug, plug..... | |
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| bvr379 | 22 Apr 2009, 03:40 PM Post #25 |
Director
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David, Could you please explain more about "Tracy Jo's" buffers. The following photo in the 1966 /68 period does not show any and neither do any of the photos at the Bure Valley Railway: "Tracy Jo" Referring back to loco development, one of the advantages of not using "heritage" locos is that you can update / improve them without anybody being able to say you should have done X, Y or Z. It is BVR policy to try and improve each of its locos each time that they go in for major maintenance. For example all four of the BVR “ZB” locos will eventually end up with outside springs on their pony trucks, because such an arrangement makes maintenance easier - as well as being able to see if any of the springs are broken. Two of the BVR’s "ZB" locos have received new cylinders, whereas BVR #7 has only had its existing cylinders improved. Unfortunately, finances also come into the equation. Going back to “Tracy Jo” / “Wroxham Broad”, I much prefer the copper capped chimney in the above mentioned photo to the present “ring”! Best wishes, |
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David Barnes Bure Valley Railway - The 15" gauge railway with powerful steam locomotives. Trains between Wroxham & Aylsham in Norfolk. Daily services between 24th March and 28th October 2018. Please look up the BVR website, for more details. | |
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| banksy | 22 Apr 2009, 03:56 PM Post #26 |
banksy
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Tracy-jo Had real buffers until it went to kirklees they removed them and they are now fitted round the turntable at shelly |
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| bvr379 | 22 Apr 2009, 03:57 PM Post #27 |
Director
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Sorry, just seen those buffers in the MRWF thread for “Trevor Guest locos”. Sorry Craig and David. When "Wroxam Broad" goes to Kirklees later in the year, we will have to see if the buffers still fit!!!!!! |
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David Barnes Bure Valley Railway - The 15" gauge railway with powerful steam locomotives. Trains between Wroxham & Aylsham in Norfolk. Daily services between 24th March and 28th October 2018. Please look up the BVR website, for more details. | |
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| timbgray64 | 22 Apr 2009, 04:00 PM Post #28 |
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So did I, after I'd finished enjoying it
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Tim www.youtube.com/timbgray64 www.flickr.com/photos/timbgray64/ | |
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| DevilDrummer | 22 Apr 2009, 04:23 PM Post #29 |
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Director
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You can do thing's to heritage loco's without people saying anything, 71000's Kylchap, 6619's Kylchap and cylinder liners, The Sutton stock's air brakes, mountaineer's cylinder rebuild, Romney loco's tenders etc. |
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"Humans are so smart, they dont even need a meteorite to destroy themselves, like the stupid dinosaurs did!" http://devildrummertom.fotopic.net NYMR Fireman - "More in the back end!" | |
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| DavidColley | 22 Apr 2009, 04:57 PM Post #30 |
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Instigator of Waving.
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Ummm, Tom, there has been quite a bit of discussion on these here pages about just that! Come to think of it, there has been mention of just about all your examples. I don't think that anyone will object to the reasons, but people do like to have an opinion on the more historical rolling stock. |
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Check out the website, Sherwood Forest Railway plug, plug, plug..... | |
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the new boiler should work wonders for the priming problems


9:17 AM Jul 11