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'Barlow Pacifics'; Any known sources ?
Topic Started: 14 Dec 2010, 06:01 PM (2,822 Views)
David Jones
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Once again, I'm appealing for help in the interests of accuracy. Does anyone have, or know where I can find, a reliable listing of the diesel electric 4-6-2s built by Harry N. Barlow at Southport between 1948 and about 1952? There were, inevitably, changes of name and I don't think any carried works numbers. Just off the top of my head, I think that there were eight built, three of which were 'Emmett-ised' for the Festival of Britain line, and that six now survive (Southport, Windmill Farm, Saltburn and (?) where else). Two of the ex-Festival of Britain ones are said to have gone to the Isle of Wight and been scrapped when the Medina Valley project failed.
In addition to the eight 'Streamliners', Barlow did (at least the mechanical bits) for the two 2' 0" gauge SILVER BELLE power units on Southport Pier, and I believe the wheels of one of these were used in the lately-built 4-6-0 CITY OF LONDON after the rest was scrapped at Steamport.
As always, I would be very grateful for any information.

David Jones
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banksy
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Just an extra idea I would like to find out about. Have any of the barlows ever been put through it's paces at the Romney just to see what one could really do?
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craiggluyas
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Yeah, both Princess Anne and Duke of Edinburgh (Ex Ally Pally + Knowsley) visited in 2000 and ran to Romney Sands. Unfortunatly Anne held the duke back somewhat due to lower gearing and smaller wheels!

What do you want to know David?
Edited by craiggluyas, 14 Dec 2010, 08:17 PM.
Craig Gluyas

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Timbo
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There was a very good article in The Narrow Gauge on these - "The Pretenders" - by Lawson Little. I don't have issue details to hand, apologies.
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dereksmith
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Craig is sort of right but sort of wrong. Both locos did visit Romney but went a lot further than Romney Sands. On the Friday evening, Austin, Steve, myself and one of our young volunteers took both locos right round the line. Each traveled as light locos within sight of each other and had no problems in keeping up with each other. Somewhere I have some photographs and if anyone has a copy of the video I did about visiting locos to Romney there is some footage of the locos at Dungeness. They made a welcome distraction from the usual steam visitors. Austin's loco spent a little time dismantled in the workshop because of a minor problem and it was fascinating to look under the bonnet!
Derek Smith
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P Scott
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The article Tim refers to is:

The Narrow Gauge No.176 (Winter 2001/2002) page 3.

This lists eight locomotives, briefly:
Duke of Edinburgh 1948
Duke of Edinburgh 1950
Nellie 1951
Neptune 1951
Wild Goose 1951
Prince Charles 1953
Princess Anne 1956
Golden Jubilee 1963

There were follow up letters in 178 pages 28 & 30.

Hope this is of help.

Peter S.
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kscanes
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P Scott
16 Dec 2010, 08:20 PM
The article Tim refers to is:

The Narrow Gauge No.176 (Winter 2001/2002) page 3.

This lists eight locomotives, briefly:
Duke of Edinburgh 1948
Duke of Edinburgh 1950
Nellie 1951
Neptune 1951
Wild Goose 1951
Prince Charles 1953
Princess Anne 1956
Golden Jubilee 1963
Referring to "Existing Locomotives" published by the Industrial Railway Society, we get a current situation of:

PRINCESS ANNE (1948) at Windmill Farm
DUKE OF EDINBURGH (1948) at Lakeside
DUKE OF EDINBURGH (1950) at Windmill Farm
PRINCE CHARLES (1953) at Saltburn
PRINCE CHARLES (1954) at Lakeside
GOLDEN JUBILEE (1963) at Lakeside

NELLIE, NEPTUNE and WILD GOOSE were the three at the Far Tottering & Oystercreek Railway, Battersea Park, all built 1951. As far as I can work out, two went to the Medina Valley Railway and were later scrapped, and the third is PRINCE CHARLES at Lakeside, the change of quoted year built perhaps representing a rebuild.

(Pick the bones out of the differences between the NGRS list and the IRS list!) Comments and corrections welcome.

Ken Scanes
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dereksmith
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I think the history is as follows - although I am open to correction......

No.1 in 1948 for the railway at Southport as Duke of Edinburgh. This moved around a bit but eventually came to rest with Austin Moss in 1990 via Belle View, Skegness (where it was renamed Princess Anne), Hayle and Haigh Hall.

No. 2 in 1950 (another Duke of Edinburgh!) for a line at Alexandra Palace (north London). In 1970 the entire railway was moved to Knowsley Safari Park and ended up with Austin Moss in 1990 but is on loan at Southport.

No. 3 in 1951 was built with a 'Nellie' body for the Battersea line. It returned to Barlow in 1953 and was rebuilt as 'Princess Anne' for use on the new line at Battersea. In 1977 it went to Greville Socket for use on the Medina Valley Railway and was scrapped about 1982.

No. 4 in 1951 as 'Neptune' for the Battersea line. Subsequent history as for Nellie except it was renamed 'Princess Margaret' in 1954.

No. 5 in 1951 as 'Wild Goose' for the Battersea railway. Rebuilt and renamed 'Prince Charles' in 1954 it returned to Battersea for use on the new line but was returned to Barlow sometime before 1960.It still survives at Southport.

No. 6 in 1953 as 'Prince Charles' for Saltburn MR. Renamed Prince of Wales early 60s. 1989 reverted to 'Prince Charles' - still at Saltburn.

Nos. 7/8 in 1954 were two 2ft gauge units for use on Southport Pier. Both are now scrapped but the wheels from one unit went to Austin Moss for use in the rebuild of No.2

No. 9 in 1956 for St Annes Miniature Railway as 'Princess Anne'. Returned to Southport in 1962 where it was renamed 'Duke of Edinburgh'.

No. 10 in 1963 'Golden Jubilee' new to Southport.
Derek Smith
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BenVincer
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Hello guys,

Digging up an old thread here, but does anyone have any dimentions/drawings/plans for any of the Barlow pacifics or know where I could lay my hands on some?

Cheers,

Ben
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Michael Crofts
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I know who owns the original general arrangement drawing - interestingly this shows cylinders and connecting rods. If you are still interested after all this time PM me.
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jim russell
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Dimensions wanted for Harry Barlow’s A4 or Emett loco’s.

Michael, if you still have access to the original drawing I would be interested in the driver wheel base/diameter, pony truck wheel base/diameter and the overall wheel base.

Data for any or all of the above would be gratefully appreciated.

Thank You,

Jim Russell
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Bob Proctor
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You are always welcome to come to Saltburn with measure and camera.
Bob
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jim russell
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Thanks for the offer Bob,

Putting a measuring tape on one of the remaining locos would be my first choice of action. However, I am on the other side of the Atlantic and must rely on books, web sites and the generous contributions of others.

I have found some data in Peter Scott’s “A History of the Butlin’s Railways”. But, would like to confirm the information before starting on the project.

Any data would be cheerfully accepted.

Jim Russell
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Bob Proctor
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Externally everything is pretty much as it was in 1953. The motive power is now a 4.108 litre Perkins 4 cylinder diesel still driving the original 110 volt dynamo. The old differential has been replaced with a radicon type gearbox and at the present time we are replacing the two 1 inch pitch sprockets on the centre drive wheel shaft. I would send some photographs but I always have a problem uploading onto this site . We have a good face book page and also a magnificent web page which you might like to peruse at your leisure. We also have at Saltburn the world's oldest water balanced inclined tramway.
robert.proctor@homecall.co.uk
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jim russell
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Thanks Bob,

Yes, I have been to the Saltburn web site.

My search has produced photographs of all the Barlow A4 incarnations except the Emett loco that became either Princess Margaret or Margaret Rose. It has also produced dimensions for Princess Anne.

My confusion lies with the blue Duke of Edinburgh loco with the 1948 Builders Plate and the number 4468. This appears to be one of the Emett locos. Photographs of the Nellie conversion to Princess Anne are remarkably similar to the current Duke (4468). My guess is that the original 1948 Duke of Edinburgh Build and Name Plates were appropriated when this loco was rebuilt?

In a related matter, is the 1962 Princess Anne with the outside journals a new build or a rebuild of the 1948 Duke of Edinburgh?

Thanks,

Jim Russell
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