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| An independant Scotland?; What are your views? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 3 2006, 08:48 PM (641 Views) | |
| Admin | Dec 3 2006, 08:48 PM Post #1 |
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This was touched on during the immigration debate, but as the issue doesn't seem to be going away, I think it deserves its own topic. Anyways, in my opinion, this whole idea of independance being popular seems to be based on one myth: that England is somehow cheating them and holding back Scotland's economy. The SNP claims that if Scotland was independant and in control of North Sea oil, then it would quickly develop into a strong and vibrant economy, and be respected around the world. However, what they don't seem to realise is how badly Scotland depends on being part of the UK. Scotland is essentially socialist- the scottish executive spends huge amounts of money and one in four people are employed by the state. However, all of this is only really supported by money coming from London - if it weren't for this, then Scotland's economy, and essentially its society, would stagnate and decline. Still though, an independant scotland would be bad news for the rest of the UK as well - we'd probably lose our seat on the UN security council, and money would have to be spent changing the infrastructure on the border between Scotland. Despite this though, the rest of the Uk would probably continue on pretty much as usual - Scotland would just collapse. So, that's my thoughts - what are yours on this issue? |
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| Boohistory | Dec 3 2006, 10:01 PM Post #2 |
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Minister for Awesome
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Those pesky scots always causing trouble.... Anyway coming from a country owned by england myself I dont really mind having English overlordship. Wales would be a bum town without england. As for scotland let them do whatever it is they want to do. I mean they did not become part of the union until the very late 1700's anyway, and that was only because their economy nearly collapsed. |
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| miniyoda008 | Dec 4 2006, 04:40 PM Post #3 |
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Master of the Force
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I voted no, for Scotland's sake. |
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| eriatarka1 | Dec 4 2006, 07:33 PM Post #4 |
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Home Secretary
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My dad is Scottish, and I voted no, for Scotland's sake. |
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| 6underground | Dec 10 2006, 08:14 PM Post #5 |
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As a fellow Welshman, I just wanted to point out that there are many countries smaller or the equivalent size of Wales doing just fine independantly. There was a government report that answered the question of Welsh independence, it is possible but, the journey would not be easy. I just think it's ludicrous to assume that a country of 8,000 square miles, rich in many resources wouldn't be able to sustain a population of under 3 million people. |
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| Inevitable | Dec 10 2006, 08:50 PM Post #6 |
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WOBBUFFET!
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I don't see why you'd want independence. If anything the world should be striving towards unity, not whatever the word is for lots of countries. If we were all just one big country ruled by a Psychotic Dictator everything would be much better. No war or anything. Vote Aquatic Evil in the next Psychotic Dictator of the World Elections. Seriously though, I do think that a unified world is the way to go. |
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| 6underground | Dec 10 2006, 08:58 PM Post #7 |
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Well there are many reasons for it including self-autonomy.
You imply that the way forward is by having a global country? I don't think thats possible. The way forward i believe, is a highly devolved global government. something akin to: UN>Continental>Regional>Country by Country. So that every nationality , creed and nation is represented on a global stage not "spoken for" by the country next door. So yes, we agree with the same outcome, just differ on the method to obtain it. |
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| Inevitable | Dec 10 2006, 09:01 PM Post #8 |
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WOBBUFFET!
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Yeah, I know. Still, it would be nice I'm sure. No wars, because there's no one to war with... lots of other stuff...I know, I watch to much sci-fi... Oh, I didn't actually mean you, I meant people in general, incase you thought that. |
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| Admin | Dec 10 2006, 09:02 PM Post #9 |
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Hmmm... do the majority of welsh people want independance? Anyways, up to a point, I agree with Aquatic Evil - the world should strive to become more united... although a single global government doesn't seem possible to me. Personally, I don't think Wales should be independant... although it should probably have more devolved powers. But if that's the case, then Education and Health policies should just be abandoned altogether at a National level - otherwise it's unfair on the English. Still though, I suppose I can't properly appreciate the argument for Welsh independance, as I'm not Welsh myself. |
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| 6underground | Dec 10 2006, 09:16 PM Post #10 |
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According to a survey not to long ago over a quarter of the Welsh support independence. I'm still on the fence on what I would like, just to say that I think the current arrangement is utterly crap within the UK. For instance, why is it fair for Welsh ministers to travel 250 miles into England to pass laws that apply in Wales. It's just plain silly. If Independence is out of the question, then I would certainly support an "inner-commonwealth". I think the majority of English people feel as though, if Wales (or Scotland) were to leave the union, it would have some catastrophic effect on being "British". A term that's often quite "iffy" to nationalities outside of England but, highly popular within England. For instance, English people by and large, are quite comfortable describing themselves as "British" instead of "English", mainly because the term "British" is an English invention. Thus, this is why nationalities outside of England tend not to use it. I believe that any union forced into being, through conquest, is doomed to failure. It may take 10 years or a millennia. The point is, nations that are conquered, never forget. distrust, racism, prejudice, anger and discontent flow through generations, like water, century after century. Accumilating in a big "finale". This is not the case in optional, co-operative unions. That's probably why i'm so hesitant about Scotlands bid for independence. They chose to surrender their autonomy to join England in a union. Wales did not and had choice taken from it. Instances of forced unions are prevalent everywhere: The USSR, Roman Empire, British Empire, French etc.. *phew*
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| HRH King Zog II | Dec 10 2006, 09:29 PM Post #11 |
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Waffler of the House of Boreds
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Unity is bad Look what happened when Winston Churchill tried to make 3 peoples live in one country Iraq thats what Also Wales would economically collapse without England unlike Scotland which seems to be doing just fine |
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| Admin | Dec 10 2006, 09:31 PM Post #12 |
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Technically, we're all British, as we all live on the British Isles. I see what you mean though - over the years, England has abused its position and neglected Wales, Scotland, Northern England, Ireland, Cornwall... well, basicly everywhere except London.However, the area we refer to today as Wales is actually several different countries stuck together. If we worked on the basis that all countries formed by conquest should be dismantled, then we'd be left with several million little fiefdoms of no particular significance. Perhaps the seat of government should leave London, but would it really be worth the expense? Hmmm... perhaps the current Union should be replaced, with the various regions all agreeing to it through choice - giving the UK a clean slate to work from, instead of one stained by history. But then of course, if this was to happen, Scotland would vote no... Therefore, it won't happen. Labour won't propose it because many of their leading politicians come from Scotland. The Tories won't propose it because they'd be horrified by the idea. The Lib Dems could propose it, but it wouldn't do anything as they'd never get to form a government. Therefore, it probably won't happen. Still though, I think that refounding the Union would be a good idea. |
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| HRH King Zog II | Dec 10 2006, 09:39 PM Post #13 |
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Waffler of the House of Boreds
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Meh you have an average amount of money thus the Tories don't care what you think, Labour don't care what you think and the Lib Dems can't take action over what you think |
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| 6underground | Dec 10 2006, 09:58 PM Post #14 |
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That seems to be a common perception yet, there is no evidence to support it. Incidentally, the withdrawral of Wales from the UK, would have quite an impact on several parts of England, resource wise.
Of course, I don't disagree with that in practice. I'm European too. But, that doesn't mean I'm French or Danish because I'm European but, I share cultural, historical and in some cases linguistic links with all of them. England included of course.
I tend to disagree, the only periods where Wales was seperated was pre Edward 1st, it's true that before that point there was no "Wales", in the modern text of a singular country. Rather, a nation with 4 (I'll have to check) princedoms, or such. But, these have never been described as countries either by the historians of that time or by modern scholars. However, Wales as in a single country did exist before it was conquered by edward first and again briefly centuries later under Owain Glyndŵr, who set up a Welsh Parliament in Machynllyth and invaded England briefly.
I think Westminster should remain as a seat of power but, it should be redefined. England, should get it's own parliament that serves it's own people, same with Wales and N.I should just be given to the R.O.I if possible. Westminster would thus serve to be a focal point for ministers from all three constituent parts of the UK, that would debate and discuss laws that would affect them all. I know what i say is vague but, a new redefining of the UK is certainly needed.
I would be in support of a redfining, dare i say federal UK?
ROFL - Damn straight!
Most certainly, otherwise we just continue the circle. |
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| Boohistory | Dec 11 2006, 01:23 PM Post #15 |
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Minister for Awesome
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Darn I missed a politics debate :angry: :angry: Anyway better late then never I guess... Ahem, I come from the welsh border with england, and to be honest the general feeling is that we are much more akin to Chester and England than we are with the "welshies" South Wales gets ALL the money leaving the north to rot in its own filth. NOBODY speaks welsh in the border country, and all the papers and radio stations are for "Wrexham and Chester" uniting the 2 provinces as if we are one entity. Where I came from people resented being forced to learn welsh at school. Most people are "hybrids" that is Welsh and English parentage. I do like the assembly, its more socialist than the national government (We get free prescriptions until the age of 25, free bus passes for OAP's etc) but it still ignores the North. For example, Wrexham is a MASSIVE town, much bigger than the cities of Bangor and Aberystwyth, and we have tried for city classification for many years, only to be turned down again and again in favour of southern towns. :angry: :angry: :angry: |
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Yeah, I know. Still, it would be nice I'm sure. No wars, because there's no one to war with... lots of other stuff...

1:03 AM Jul 11