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DSP Manifesto; Yes, we actually have one!
Topic Started: Aug 20 2008, 03:18 PM (433 Views)
Cieran
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Should-like-totally-be-the Prime Minister
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I say he who gives up his freedom for security deserves neither. What's to say that, if police patrols were eased off and income gaps closed, these mobs as you say would take over?...
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Commoncold0
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Elder Statesman
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Closing the income gap is easier said than done. If you've eased off the police force but your social engineering plans fail, then what?
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Cieran
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Should-like-totally-be-the Prime Minister
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You don't ease them off first. That would be stupid.

I believe that the fewer policemen there are the better really...
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Commoncold0
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Elder Statesman
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Going back to your earlier point though...

"I say he who gives up his freedom for security deserves neither."


An admirable sentiment, but how exactly are you decreasing peoples freedoms by having more police? If you were arguing against increasing police powers I'd understand your point, but I don't see why you oppose increasing police coverage.
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Cieran
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Should-like-totally-be-the Prime Minister
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The more police there are out there, the more control they have, meaning the less control for the average citizen...
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Commoncold0
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Elder Statesman
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Cieran
Aug 26 2008, 11:35 PM
The more police there are out there, the more control they have, meaning the less control for the average citizen...

Control?


The police's job is to prevent people from carrying out actions forbidden by law. If you think they have too much control over people, then the answer is not to spread the police force so thinly that it's ineffective - the answer is to repeal the law you consider to be so oppressive that it shouldn't be enforced.
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Cieran
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Okay then, the more potential there is for control. I've said this before; while we may not use them in such a way, a future, more authoritarian government, may...
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plqx
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overlord of the Solafian universe
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Bear in mind that a lot of crimes are unaffected by reductions in levels of poverty.

You claim that "the fewer policement there are the better", which means that you ultimately desire a situation with no police force. How then would you deal with criminals? (after all, no matter how much you remove causes of crime, there will always be some people turning to it - whether out of laziness, the idea of making a profit, or simply for the fun of it)

Furthermore, tackling the causes of crime in this way would take at least a decade to come into effect, and even then the results are questionable. Do you have any other intentions to help you with this goal, and what will you do to replace this police force whilst your actions are taking effect?
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Commoncold0
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Cieran
Aug 27 2008, 12:26 AM
Okay then, the more potential there is for control. I've said this before; while we may not use them in such a way, a future, more authoritarian government, may...

Yes, but even if you reduced police force numbers a more authoritarian government would simply be able to increase them again anyway.
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Cieran
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My opposition to police forces comes from my anarchist tendancies. I personally believe that no government is best, and since the police answer ultimately to the government, I believe there should be no police. Obviously again, it's a utopian ideal, and I'm really rather sick of debating this point...
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Commoncold0
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If it's a utopian ideal, then you accept that it cannot be succesfully implemented - in which case why is it your party policy?
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Cieran
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It's not. We're committed to FEWER police, not no police...
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eriatarka1
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Home Secretary
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But what happens if a more anarchic party were to come along, seeing the trend that you have set for fewer police, and decide to reduce it even more and more drastically?

I think you'll find you're in a hole and should stop digging. You have no response to this that doesn't undo any previous lines of logic.

Your position is utterly untenable.
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Cieran
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I stand by my position that the fewer police there are, the more control people have.

Your "anarchic government" argument can be undone in much the same way as CC0 undid my totalitarian one. An anarchic government would get rid of the police forces regardless of what previous governments had done, the point is moot...
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eriatarka1
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Cieran
Aug 27 2008, 05:07 PM
I stand by my position that the fewer police there are, the more control people have.

Your "anarchic government" argument can be undone in much the same way as CC0 undid my totalitarian one. An anarchic government would get rid of the police forces regardless of what previous governments had done, the point is moot...

Well, at least three points here, but don't be surprised if there aren't more.

1) I know the point is moot, I fully agree with CC0 on his statement, that whatever happens in the future is not directly in extreme cases dictated by previous governments. I never said I agreed with the argument I set down, because I personally saw the hole in it. I posed it to test you.

2) Had you agreed with my statement, then your line of argument (as you rightly point out) against CC0 concerning a totalitarian state would have been rendered null, as it already has been. Therefore you were not going to agree without being inconsistent.

3) If you disagree with that line of arguing, as you have done, then your original line of argument (when first argued against by plqx) that "more police on the streets can ultimately lead to a climate of fear, where there are police everywhere, and eventually a police state" is rendered null and void.

As I said, your position is utterly untenable.

I apologise on your behalf if that seemed unclear, but I was completely dazed trying to work out what on earth you meant by your first statement [freedom instead of control?]

In essence: you restrict/create freedom through application of legislation; you enforce this through law enforcement officers. Any perception of extra fear and restriction will either be on illegal activities or placebeic.
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