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Butterfly ID
Topic Started: Sep 16 2008, 02:56 PM (19,496 Views)
Chris
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Dave, many thanks for the confirmation of the Ringlet and Gatekeeper sexes and for the very helpful ID pointers. :cool1: The white spots on the female are not mentioned in my guide book and that's one of the reasons I was wondering about them. Thanks again, Dave.
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Davebutterflyman
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Nor in mine Chris so i might research this and see what i can come up with,
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Forget Me Not
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I havent lost the plot,their is a Butterfly in both pics..Its a brownish one

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Davebutterflyman
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:hello1: Jean

That is a Small Tortoiseshell.
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Daisyjan
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:cool: Thought so too Dave, but wasnt sure. No butterflies on my buddlias yet :)
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Deleted User
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Is this a Gatekeeper please.
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Davebutterflyman
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Spot on Judy.....great photo :clap3:
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Thanks Dave
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Davebutterflyman
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Pleasure Judy.

It is a male as well.
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Chris
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Dave, may I ask a favour, please? :grin: This is an old photo of mine from 2009 which I have had on my Flickr gallery for some time. Back then I labelled it as Pale Clouded Yellow (Colias hyale). I can't remember if I had any help with identification, but probably not.

Yesterday, the following comment from Germany was made on the picture:

"To my knowledge it is only possible to separate Hyale and Alfacariensis by hatching the caterpillar (which were completely different) and waiting what happens. Alternatively if you have a dorsal shot (tricky!), there might be some black parts ("basal powdering") which are more visible in Hyale than Alfacariensis. Or you look at the females, WHERE they are laying their eggs. They are only 2 host plants/types for Alfacarienses (Hippocrepis comosa or Coronilla sp.). So if it is not one of these 2 it is NOT Alfacarienses. However, the other way round it doesn't fit, since Hyale has the same host plants. Tricky, isn't it ;-)...? I have also IDed my Hyale, but withdraw it again, after searching the literature. Now I put both names. Usually geographical range is not very reliable and I can't judge the range myself."

I have responded that I will look into his comment. Should I change or qualify my ID? It would be very good to have your views on this one, if you can spare the time.

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8._Pale_Clouded_Yellow__Colias_hyale_.jpg (2.55 MB)
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Davebutterflyman
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:hello1: Chris

The above quoted comment is as true and an accurate description as i could have offered.Very tricky to separate indeed from underside images alone and it confuses even top lepidopterists.Once the wings are open it becomes obvious which species is which.Many sites suggest that the underside of Pale clouded yellow is markedly different from Berger's and Clouded yellow,i disagree with this as i have seen three species,Colias hyale,Croceus and Colias alfacariensis in the same area and still could not reliably separate them on underwing views alone.

I would have to label the above Chris as Colias sp just to be on the safe side.
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Chris
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Many thanks indeed, Dave, and I will do exactly as you suggest. :cool2: I am surprised that I have not yet seen any of the clouded yellows, at least to photograph. In view of your own and bayucca's comments I will try and get upper wing pictures every time!
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Chris
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:hello1: I think that this is a Sooty Copper (Lycaena tityrus), probably L.t.tityrus, despite the lack of brown on the underside of the upperwing. I did consider L.t.subalpina but the black spots are not as bold as those on mine and on L.t.tityrus. I discounted L.t.bleusi because it is restricted to Spain. It looks as if this species is not found in the UK and cannot be added to the Challenge. :sad:

Both pictures show the underwings but one of them does give a glimpse of the colour of the upperwings which means it is a female.



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Davebutterflyman
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It's the best,and only way,to be 100% sure Chris but it can be tricky as most Colias sp tend to rest and feed with wings closed.
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Davebutterflyman
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Superb butterfly Chris and agreed on Sooty copper.Not a UK species unfortunately but lovely to see.
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Chris
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Very many thanks for confirming the ID, Dave. :cool1:

Here is another one which, if I am right, is also absent from the UK. I think it is a Short-tailed Blue (Everes argiades). Both the Sooty Copper and this one were found at a hilltop village just behind our house and since it looks to be a good area for butterflies I'll go back again as soon as I can. :grin:
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Davebutterflyman
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:hello1: Chris

Very close with the id and it is in fact a Provencal Short Tailed Blue Everes alcetas

The main identifier is in the lack of the two under hindwing orange lunules whici is present in Short Tailed Blue,even when individuals are worn there still remains evidence of the orange spots.
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Chris
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Well, well, a Provençal Short-tailed Blue is rarer than a Short-tailed Blue, even in France and it is not normally found in this part of the country, according to Collins! A good find, I think! :yay: I discounted the Provençal because I thought the butterfly was so worn and faded that the orange lunules had disappeared, plus the fact that E. alcetas is not normally found in this part of the country. It ranks as one of, if not the, best of the year for me. If it keeps travelling north it will get to the UK yet! :grin:
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Davebutterflyman
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:hello1: Chris

I think the Collins guide is arguably the best on the market but i would guess that some of the info is now outdated.I have just done a distribution search and it appears that records from 2010 have come from parts of Lyon,Clermont-Ferrand,Besancon,Chateauroux and Vichy amongst others so it appears that the species is moving further north.

It is now apparently more common,though still uncommon,in the more northern parts of it's range and former hotspots like the Haute-alpes and parts of Provence it is now far more localised.Seems a strange shift really and i'm not too sure why thi is the case.

Good news for you Chris and other species could follow although i doubt far enough to trouble my id skills in Derbyshire :giggle:
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Deleted User
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Not too good on my Butterfly Id's :grin:

It was very hot and this was the best pic I could get. It refused to open its wings while resting and I couldn't really see any detail when it flew :grin:
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