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Butterfly ID
Topic Started: Sep 16 2008, 02:56 PM (19,503 Views)
celticsparrow-Jan
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:thankyou: Dave ,thats what confused me i knew these were smaller than the Gatekeepers i saw last week.
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carlos100
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Insect ID Moderator
ID please
Is this Ardonis blue or Silver studded blue

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Davebutterflyman
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:hello1: Carl

It's actually a Common Blue and a lovely shot of the underside :cool2:

Adonis Blue has one diagnostic feature on the underwings and that is the dark lines within the white fringes on the outer parts of the wing and there are also subtle differences in the spot formation.Silver studded Blue has a very different arrangements of underside spots and the main feature is the silver studs (in the outer margin) which project away from the orange lunules and are enclosed by a black border giving the "Silver studded" appearance.

The blues are a bit of a nightmare Carl and thats just the British ones! a lot of the European species i have encountered (around 50 of the eighty or so species) are a complete nightmare and some i have had to just leave and basically give up on :giggle: Provence Chalkhill Blue and Chalkhill Blue will leave any entomologist,amateur or otherwise,reaching for a bottle of the hard stuff.....and i would have done if i could!

I will be covering the blues within the Photo ID Guide at some point and hopefully i will point out all the differences.
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carlos100
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Insect ID Moderator
Thanks Dave
Another well explained and detailed reply
Cheers.

PS
There are loads of blues around and loads of different variations so may spend some time just getting photos of them and ignoring anything else.
Its just catching them to photo !!
Have you any tips as they are very fast ,I was thinking of getting a proper net and jar collector but was worried about damaging them.
Edited by carlos100, Jul 28 2010, 09:09 PM.
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Davebutterflyman
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Pleasure Carl :cool2:

It's a very tricky feat to capture Blue butterfly species and even when you do thats when the problems start to arise!.I would advise against using a net for the very reasons you have pointed out as wings can easily be damaged plus the other point as well is that a lot of species have been afforded BAP status and under certain points of the wildlife and countryside act 1981 it may be considered unethical to catch even some common species of butterfly.

I think the only real solution is to persevere and in time you will get the shots you desire.One thing i can help you with Carl is very detailed site access to every single UK butterfly species (those sites where you are almost guaranteed of at least seeing the species in question) plus flight periods,access and the best areas to see each butterfly species.

It may be too late this year for many species but certainly next year i can help you as much as possible.If you want to PM me your exact location i can start to compile a list of sites close by and then further afield.You might also want to consider the possibility of "sugaring" and i can also pass on details of how to do this as well.
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lullieowl
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Buzzard
I agree with Dave Carl, i myself would not consider physically capturing a Butterfly as they are such delicate creatures and they can be damaged with even the most gentle handling also the momment you placed it down to photograph it would probabley fly away..
I have a few tips you could try out though Carl.
Firstly find a good necter source, ie a thistle bed or a buddliea bush even a hawthorn hedge or something similar in flower. Butterflys of many species are attracted to these food sources sometimes in large numbers and simply wait, something will turn up in time.
Try and go Butterfly spotting on warm sunny days as many species are sun lovers and tend to hide away during cool and overcast weather and dont even bother during wet weather.
When i try and photo a Butterfly i keep my eyes peeled for them in flight and keep fixed on the critter until it settles "belive me most do in time" then i slowley approach it always trying not to shade it with my shadow then very slowly without any sudden movements i try and get close enough for a photo, try this and you will be suprised how close you can get to a feeding or resting Butterfly.
Photographing Butterflys is a challenge but can be rewarding, all you need is a keen eye a bit of patience and a lot of luck in fact just like trying to photograph any wild animal...
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lullieowl
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I photoed this Skipper this afternoon and it has got me a bit confused..

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My first guess was a male Large Skipper, but after chcking it out in my book a little later i am not so sure...

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He is defiantly not a Small Skipper and just does not look like a male Large Skipper, please am i going mad or could this be a Essex Skipper??..
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carlos100
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If the anteenae are black all round and underneath its a Essex

The tips that is doh!
Edited by carlos100, Aug 2 2010, 10:53 PM.
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lullieowl
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Buzzard
Thanks Carl interesting little Skipper that oh and i was only trying to help!..
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Davebutterflyman
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Thanks for your input Carl and Steve :cool2:

It's not Large Skipper because the antennae aren't hooked and as you point out Steve it's not a Small Skipper so Carl's id point is correct and it certainly looks like an Essex Skipper Steve so a good bit of detection between the two of you :cool2:

Great photos as well Steve :clap3:
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Davebutterflyman
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Think Carl was suggesting Steve that he meant that the tips on Essex Skipper were black and not the whole antennae...now that would be quite a challenge to id :lol: and thankfully i've never come across such an abberation as i'm sure you would both testify that it's bad enough trying to id some of the blues! :giggle:

I was also wondering if i could ask you both a favour as well with you both going out and about photographing butterflies etc.I want to try and further my butterfly atlas and wondered if you could both pass on full site details of all the places you visit and i can lay out some of the criteria below as an example...

Site Name.
Grid Reference.
Habitat Type.
Butterfly Species:
Public Access-car parking,paths or trails etc.

Any info at all would be really appreciated guys and there is absolutely no rush at all as i will be updating my lists probably well into the winter.

Cheers :cool2:
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lullieowl
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Buzzard
:rofl: Oh yea, thanks Dave i had a long day... :cool3:
Fantastic so it is a Essex Skipper :yay: and i am not going mad. That is another brand new Butterfly species for me and i did not even think they was found here in Herefordshire.
Certainly Dave, i will get some site details of the Butterfly field as i call it.. :sunshine:
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carlos100
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Insect ID Moderator
OH hahahahahah did I make my reply sound all wrong.
Sorry I began to write what was in my head but it all came out wrong and instead of editing it I posted then added the bit on the end.
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Davebutterflyman
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:giggle: Carl

I have just looked at the distribution of Essex Skipper Steve and although there are not many records of the species in Herefordshire it is nonetheless right at the edge of it's range on the border of Herefordshire and it obviously just about crosses over.I would say that yours is a very good record for the county and it might be worth keeping an eye out around the various places you visit Steve for more sightings.

If you wanted to submit records to the county recorder you would need to get near perfect shots of the undertips of the antennae which would clearly show the black colouration without any hint of orange.This is not that easy to do but will be the only way that they will accept the record of Essex Skipper in the county....i know how county recorders minds work.....i used to be one! :lol: they can be the most unbelieving group of so-and-so's and want every last possible detail before they will consider accepting a record and sometimes what seem to be good enough images are just not....even from those recorders that would be happy to submit the same image themselves but won't accept them from what they would consider to be a "novice".
I know thats a load of rubbish and if i were a recorder now i would accept your record but many would not and it's amazing how many of the committee that stand on the board of recorders know so liitle about the mere basics....and believe me Steve i have met quite a few and they can be the most frustrating of people!
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lullieowl
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Buzzard
Thanks again Dave, some of these recorders sound a awkward lot.. :ahh:
Just now i have been studying the Skippers i have photographed this year and my conclutions are i think interesting, i wonder if you can have a look "and anyone else for that matter" and please tell me what you think..

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I am 100% certain this is a Large Skipper..

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I am quite sure this is a male Small Skipper..

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A female Small Skipper i think..


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I took this photo early last month and thought it was a Small Skipper, but looking at its antennae tips i am now not so sure, i think this is a Essex Skipper..

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This was another Skipper i photoed yesterday, again at first i thought Small Skipper, but i now think Essex Skipper.. Please tell me yopur thoughts...
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carlos100
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Insect ID Moderator
Great photos Steve :encore:

Unfortuantly Steve its only you who can confirm wether its an Essex as I found out myself.
Photos can only show one view(unless you have more photos with other views).
Because you alone at the time need to see all the way round the tip to make sure its all black.
Not always an easy task !!
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Daisyjan
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Platinum Member
:giggle: Bloomin heck, I'd better look at all my skippers in Wales!!!

Dont suppose Essex ones get up here tho....
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Davebutterflyman
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I don't think they do go as far as Wales Jan,unfortunately.

Great photos Steve :clap3:

The top three are all Large Skipper as you can just about make out the hooked antennae.I can jus about see a splash of orange on the antennae of the 4th skipper so this will be Small skipper but i can't see the undersides of the antennae on the last image so could be either.
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lullieowl
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Buzzard
Blinkin ekk, now i am confused, i am red green colour blind so my definition of certain colours is a bit off.
I was certain the 2nd and 3rd photos was Small Skippers, they lack any wing markings Dave?? Oh i think i have opened a can of worms here... :rofl:
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Davebutterflyman
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It can be very tricky Steve and i can list a few points below which will either help or confuse further!

Your first three images show the antennal tips to be hooked at the very tip which always separates Large Skipper from any other species of Skipper.

Female Large Skippers tend to be darker and show more of the "pale panels" on the forewings.Males do have this feature but are generally not as distinctive and can be all orange in forewing colour.The black streak on the forewing in photo 2 is diagnostically a male Large Skipper and this is called the "sex brand" and this is visible on the female but not as bold......and photo 3 is a good image to refer to when the sex brand is not obvious and faded with age but is still just visible and on an orange background of forewing so therefore this is a male again.

So.....Orange winged and "sex brand" with fewer pale panels(or none) plus hooked antennal tips-Male Large Skipper......Darker winged with obvious pale panels and indistinct sex brand plus hooked antennal tips-Female Large Skipper.

Onto Small Skipper and photos 4 and 5 would suggest either Small Skipper or Essex Skipper as both have the obvious rounded antennal tips but you would need the underside of the very end of the antennae to be sure.....Black underside tips-Essex Skipper......Orange or Orange/ Brown underside tips-Small Skipper but in both cases they always have rounded antennal tips.....you just need to get close enough to see the undertips!

There is one other area which can be used as a possible id point and this lies within the veins and wing venation make-up of Essex Skipper but is extremely difficult to explain.Basically one of the veins which is located within the costa area of the wing curves away slightly to form a very indescript sex brand on Essex whereas on Small the vein in question tends to be much straighter.....nigh on impossible to detect in the field but with good macro photography this can be used as a determining factor when back at home and viewed on your PC but as i say it can be so difficult that often this method is useless so best sticking to the first id pointer to be sure but good macro shots are always worth attempting just for the sheer wealth of detail that can be acheived.

The other Skippers tend to be a lot easier to id and Lulworth,Silver Spotted Skippers,Dingy and Grizzled all have far easier diagnostic points to muse over and all will be clearer when i attempt this section within the butterfly id thread.

Hope that helps a little Steve.

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