Review discussion

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Review discussion
Topic Started: Jul 6 2006, 03:05 AM (723 Views)
dagoss	Nov 5 2008, 06:35 PM Post #151
Level 1 Scholar / Level 10 Wizard Posts: 2,851 Group: Member Member #29 Joined: September 20, 2006	Shiren the Wonderer Preface: I've come to believe that gameplay and visuals are the most important parts of a game and individually, equally important. I've reasoned that from the phrase "video game", which has two parts (50/50) and nothing else. A video game is what people see (Latin: video) and play (e.g. a game). In this vein, everything else (presentation and sound) comes second. I disagree very strongly with this and also with your review. Video games (along with books, movies, operas, and anything else that is even removely creative) cannot be judged numerically. The criteria is completely subjective and rarely useful. To say that the "video" and "game" aspects are the most important things in a game and "everything else... comes second" is absurd. How then, do you treat a game like Rez, where the experience is one of aural sensations, or Ico, which attempts to touch the player through the emotional bond between two characters, or Planescape: Torment, which relies on mountains of thought provoking and interactive text to let the player experience a story, or Fallout, which is unique for its setting rather than gameplay or visuals. No game should be judged on its parts, especially with the parts ordered in some sort of tier. It degrades the most unique aspect of video games, its fusion of visual and aural mediums with user interactivity. The parts of a video game are not distinct things: they are unified aspects of a totality of the game and dependent on the other aspects within that game. For example, how would your review contend with the fact that the music in Ocarina of Time seamlessly fades as enemies draw new? Is that a gameplay feature? Part of the music? Part of the atmosphere? In truth, it's part of all of the above. These are the things that a review should be covering -- not the quality of the graphics or the story, which should be obvious by reading the back of the box. Please excuse me if I'm coming off as a pompous ass, but I feel very strongly about this. I love video games, and I really hate when they get treated like quantifiable toys. Edited by dagoss, Nov 5 2008, 06:38 PM.
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Shiren Wonders	Nov 5 2008, 08:19 PM Post #152
Veteran Member Posts: 359 Group: Member Member #68 Joined: March 15, 2007	My preface was a generalization to simplify, and I have a need to simplify things. I fulfill this need as often as I can do with logic, without self-deception (e.g. "rationalizations"). Simple, clear logic was my only intention, not to state my review as the absolute truth. A numerical means of judging is used to keep things simple and relate-able. Since it's so commonplace and you disagree so strongly, I wonder how you can stand for any review (movies: 1-4 stars, ign64.com reviews: 1-10). Just curious. You must be pulling your hair out half the time. I know I would. I also meant to wade past what I might call b.s.. Gamers have been criticized for being to graphics-focused. Well, it's perfectly logical. I'd wager, if most people were truly honest, they play a game for its looks or its gameplay, and if one of the two areas is subpar (without sig. respect for other ares), they won't play it. In other words, these areas are so crucial, once again, I'd wager, few people play a game or don't for its sound (fx or music) or presentation (story, menus, etc.). That's not to say these areas don't have an impact (e.g. collectively, in my review model, they comprise 1/3 of the review score, which seems very reasonable). I just don't believe it's a make or break thing (vs. grfx and gameplay). I said, "everything else comes SECOND", not doesn't count for squat or at all. My numbering is admittedly very (though, I disagree with "completely) subjective. However, my tier speaks truth, if not absolute, pretty darn accurate. Bottom line: If a game's sound sucks, you can press mute. If it's the grfx and you turn of the tv, no more game. That in and of itself proves my point.



dagoss	Nov 6 2008, 09:29 AM Post #153
Level 1 Scholar / Level 10 Wizard Posts: 2,851 Group: Member Member #29 Joined: September 20, 2006	Review for new movies and games are different. Those reviews are intended to help you as a consumer (not as a gamer) to determine if a $59.99 game is worth purchasing. Reviews for older games are more like essays that you would write on a Charles Dickens novel for an English class. They are more about reflection, appreciation, and history, than about consumption. Quote: I'd wager, few people play a game or don't for its sound (fx or music) or presentation (story, menus, etc.). Well, meet me! I don't mean to belabour this, but I really do think the attitude you take in this review makes intelligent discussion of games impossible. Again, games are not quantifiable toys, they are works of artistic expression. Sometimes they are fun, sometimes they are exciting, sometimes they provide sexual release, sometimes they move us to tears. They simply can't be broken down like this, and if anything your OoT review shows just how ridiculous any attempt is. For example: Quote: - Infantile. + Mature vocabulary. This is a contradiction. Also, it is absurd that you try to boil the entire store down to the word "infantile." Quote: - Childishly simple ocarina melodies that all sound alike. + The non-ocarina-based music. Sound effects are realistic and atmospheric. The ocarina melodies are parts of fuller songs in the game; they are built upon and reused to highlight the pivotal role the ocarina and playing the ocarina has in the game. How can all of these melodies sound a like but the other music be worthwhile when they are extensions of of ocarina songs? These statements miss the entire point of having a musical instrument as the most important item in the game -- it's not called Ocarina of Time for the hell of it. Quote: Controls - A bit clumsy. No jump button. + Fairly tight, especially with z-targeting. How can the controls be "clumsy" and "tight" at the same time? While were on words that describe nothing, "atmospheric" and "cinematic" are not helpful, since they merely tell the reader that the game as atmosphere and cinematography respectively. Overall, I think you treat Ocarina of Time as a child's plaything that has no value beyond its immediate entertainment. You miss anything beautiful, interesting, or innovative about the game -- i.e. you miss all the reasons that it has been such an enduring classic. And even if you were attempting to state "clear logic" and "keep things simple," your criteria is so subjective and hazy that it often isn't clear what you mean, which is the exact opposite of what you were trying to do. Edited by dagoss, Nov 6 2008, 09:30 AM.
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Shiren Wonders	Nov 6 2008, 01:11 PM Post #154
Veteran Member Posts: 359 Group: Member Member #68 Joined: March 15, 2007	"Reviews for new movies and games are different. Those reviews are intended to help you as a consumer (not as a gamer)" I don't see the sense in making a distinction. Reviews of older creative works shouldn't be allowed "reflection, appreciation, and history" to interfere with the more essential point: to practically assess if a game's worth a person's time and energy (not just money). And I don't care how many different ways someone calls something "classic". Like "Tale of Two Cities". Verbose (like me), long-winded but mildy interesting and entertaining (average). It's like if the first X-Men movie was 3 hrs long. "I really do think the attitude you take in this review makes intelligent discussion of games impossible." This comment is offensive; you're practically saying I've made a dumb review, which in and of itself, "criticizes my intelligence. "Games are not quantifiable toys, they are works of artistic expression." This point is debatable. Games have been mostly entertainment (not without artistic merit though), but whether they are artistic works is a subjective determination. "if anything your OoT review shows just how ridiculous any attempt is" This too is offensive. You're practically saying that I was ridiculous, which is degrading. I should have been clearer about the following (my bad), so here it goes: 1. I declare that my tier system (gfx & sound above everything else) is very logical and partially subjective (I didn't just decide on my own that video comes from the Latin word "video" (I see) or that many gamers share my mindset). 2. Yet I admit my proportioning of the review categories e.g. gfx = 1/3)of final score) is partially arbitrary and very subjective. I also admit that the individual scores are entirely subjective (there's no right/wrong or truth/untruth to it). 3. When taken out of context (your fault) or not fully explained (my fault), "- Infanitle...- Mature vocabulary" is a contradiction. I should have been clearer and more accurate. I feel the story (little Peter Pan boy against ugly non-menacing douchebag) (and characters are infantile...their behavior and demeanor). It's like a "Tiny Toons"/"Muppet Babies" version of Link to the Past to me. I'm not the only one who feels this way, either. However, dichotomously, the actual dialog or diction (word choice) is at least that of an adolescent (mature). "How can all of these melodies sound a like but the other music be worthwhile when they are extensions of of ocarina songs?" The non-ocarina centered music (the Gerudo valley theme, most temples, etc.) aren't based on the ocarina repertoire. In fact, most of them are ambient, not melodic. I think the ocarina or any whistle-like instrument sounds cheesy and childish. It's no coincidence that grade school children learn the recorder (it's the easiest instrument to learn/play). The other music, while not really rich or memorable, is passable to me. "the entire point of having a musical instrument as the most important item in the game -- it's not called Ocarina of Time for the hell of it." Yeah, well God Bless to Koji Kondo (?) and Miyamoto. But at least Kondo could've varied the melodies. They only use like 5 notes?!!!!! Controls - A bit clumsy. No jump button. + Fairly tight, especially with z-targeting. Something can be pretty much 1 thing and a little bit of the opposite thing (e.g. sweet and sour chicken). By clumsy, I think I mean a little unresponsive. And tight, well, overall, I think it is. The concept that I stress is dichotomy. "And even if you were attempting to state "clear logic" and "keep things simple," your criteria is so subjective and hazy that it often isn't clear what you mean, which is the exact opposite of what you were trying to do." My criteria, which I assume you mean the categories and their components is EXTREMELY clear and logical, anally retentively at. My individual comments about each, particularly "Critic's Voice" (which is intended for the reviewer's "slant" or bias) is to a fault short and fuzzy and definitely subjective....Thus it's MY review. And clearly by using words like "moving, cinematic, etc." I have some artistic appreciation of the game. It's not missed by me. I just want to filter (as much as I can) flowery language or romanticism/nostalgia. Edited by Shiren Wonders, Nov 6 2008, 01:14 PM.



Stephen Young	Dec 6 2008, 11:03 AM Post #155
StYoung Forever Posts: 2,609 Group: God Member #17 Joined: July 13, 2006	Can someone unclose my reviews so I can edit them? Theres messed up italics, I'm not sure if its always been like that or if they got messed up in the transition to zetaboards...
	dagoss Nov 17 2007, 05:13 PM OMG, this is the best topic ever made. I nominate Steve for God!


dataDyne	Dec 10 2008, 06:21 PM Post #156
You don't stand a chance Posts: 3,858 Group: Admin Member #4 Joined: April 13, 2006	StYoung Dec 6 2008, 11:03 AM Can someone unclose my reviews so I can edit them? Theres messed up italics, I'm not sure if its always been like that or if they got messed up in the transition to zetaboards... I just opened them back up.
	Give a man a fish, and he can eat for a day. But hit a man with a brick, and you can have all his fish. And his wife.


Nonoke	Mar 31 2009, 10:57 AM Post #157
Advanced Member Posts: 62 Group: Member Member #201 Joined: March 26, 2009	Illuminous's review of DKC2 is kinda vague, as it doesn't actually tell you much about what he thinks of the game. Because I don't think "Wow" and "Good" are enough.



alxbly	Apr 8 2009, 07:56 AM Post #158
Alxblymus Primus Posts: 8,705 Group: Admin Member #168 Joined: October 18, 2008	Thanks for the Rock Band 2 review, Spikie.
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spikie	Apr 8 2009, 08:39 AM Post #159
End All Sorrow Posts: 625 Group: Member Member #55 Joined: January 3, 2007	think it came out ok? its my first time ever reviewing something so i thought id do something i know well
	^^^ My girlfriends (jess) xbox live account


alxbly	Apr 8 2009, 10:07 AM Post #160
Alxblymus Primus Posts: 8,705 Group: Admin Member #168 Joined: October 18, 2008	spikie Apr 8 2009, 08:39 AM think it came out ok? its my first time ever reviewing something so i thought id do something i know well Yeah man, it's good. I liked it.
	Xbox Live: alxbly \| PSN: alxbly \| Wii friend code: 2326 4589 7536 6941


Mop_it_up	Apr 12 2009, 12:11 PM Post #161
Dark Birdo Posts: 5,133 Group: Admin Member #24 Joined: August 8, 2006	New reviews were posted? I should really check sections like this more often...
	===MISQUOTE OF THE MONTH=== "2D games are dull and boring." -alxbly


alxbly	Apr 12 2009, 02:18 PM Post #162
Alxblymus Primus Posts: 8,705 Group: Admin Member #168 Joined: October 18, 2008	Mop_it_up Apr 12 2009, 12:11 PM New reviews were posted? I should really check sections like this more often... Yeah man, there's been a few recently.
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