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Do Funtastic consoles have better video display?; MegaMania has pics to prove it!
Topic Started: Dec 4 2012, 10:26 PM (41,665 Views)
Z890
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Madbullbunny
Quote:
 
OEM S-video gets you the crisp look and also no checkering


Same as my findings...that s video on grey consoles gives a sharp image (not when using composite though)...in the same way as the coloured consoles do using either s video or composite.


I found that non OEM s video cables work too just as well, but then maybe i have a good source for them that are true s video and shielded well so no checkering. plus you must use the correct s video versions...Pal or ntsc,

regarding a previous post by someone about requesting photos...sorry it really is not easy to show via photos. Even if you get some kind of capture card, seeing the photos online only cause them to upscale so not a true comparison...theres plenty of different people on this thread that you can base your questions on....some conflicting info too but then you can always test it yourself and post on here.
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MadBullBunny
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Z890
Apr 17 2014, 01:21 PM
Madbullbunny
Quote:
 
OEM S-video gets you the crisp look and also no checkering


Same as my findings...that s video on grey consoles gives a sharp image (not when using composite though)...in the same way as the coloured consoles do using either s video or composite.


I found that non OEM s video cables work too just as well, but then maybe i have a good source for them that are true s video and shielded well so no checkering. plus you must use the correct s video versions...Pal or ntsc,

regarding a previous post by someone about requesting photos...sorry it really is not easy to show via photos. Even if you get some kind of capture card, seeing the photos online only cause them to upscale so not a true comparison...theres plenty of different people on this thread that you can base your questions on....some conflicting info too but then you can always test it yourself and post on here.
I'm sure there might be some newer third party s-video that will work, but like i said I bought the one everyone else tells you to buy. I read somewhere there is a cable with s-video and yellow composite that are set-up correctly but the s-video still has some checkering. I think if you really want to get best quality, it would just be easier to go with OEM s-video instead of taking chances on buying crap third party.
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myth
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Been reading N64 forever since 2013.
Snes & N64 forever!
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andyk2003
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RetroRGB
Mar 1 2014, 09:07 AM
Otaku's Store now offers an RGB board that's supposedly compatible with almost all versions of the N64, including PAL. Has anyone here installed it on a "funtastic" console? I'm very curious if those N64's offer sharper RGB output, as well as sharper S-Video & Composite.

I'll soon do a full comparison of Otaku's RGB board vs. the "regular" way that taps the VDC-NUS chip. I don't think the picture quality will be much different, but I'll definitely test and see.

Otaku's Store N64 RGB mod
Now this would be the real test - I always thought this topic was debatable when the comparisons have only been using S-video at best. RGB scart has a significant jump in quality compared to S-video. I suspect that if you put an RGB modded funtastic N64 next to a standard grey RGB modded N64, the standard one would look nicer.

I say this because after viewing the comparison shots, I suspect that Nintendo removed or used cheaper anti aliasing hardware for the funtastic consoles. Companies often do this on the later runs to save money. Losing just one or 2 components can have significant savings when you consider the volume of consoles being sold.

S-video has a undesirable 'smearing effect' that blurs the image (the colour bandwidth is actually only the same as composite) which in this case may be covering up a compatitively pixellated (less anti-aliased) image. I have a feeling that using RGB on these funtastic consoles would expose the image to the point of it being too pixellated due to the inferior anti aliasing - whereas an RGB mod on a standard console exposes the picture in the 'right' way, giving the 'softening' anti aliasing effect Nintendo originally intended combined with a sharper, RGB image (rather than a more pixellated image softened in the 'wrong' way by a poorer signal quality).

This is all speculation of course, I'd be really interested to hear/see your findings, RetroRGB.
Edited by andyk2003, Aug 7 2014, 07:29 AM.
My CRT thread:
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Z890
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Quote:
 

S-video has a undesirable 'smearing effect' that blurs the image


This thread shows the opposite. S video sharpens the image, it doesn't blur it. I see no loss of quality with the colour console. If anything I imagine as parts become cheaper in a consoles life, nintendo could improve the image quality.

Its not correct to say that s video is the same as composite. To quote wikipedia: By separating the black-and-white and coloring signals, it achieves better image quality than composite video.

Composite is fine on n64 coloured consoles though...not due to speculating, but by comparing them myself.

Quote:
 
I have a feeling that using RGB on these funtastic consoles would expose the image to the point of it being too pixellated due to the inferior anti aliasing


...For my Pal consoles I don't see a change in any image quality such as anti analising,sharpness etc...for the s video signal...just the composite signal between the grey and coloured consoles....so if s video image quality on coloured consoles is the same as the original grey consoles i don't think RGB will be different either (neither better or worse). Its as though the overly blurry composite signal was 'fixed' and nothing else. (whereas in contrast my NTSC grey console composite signal wasn't so blurry so that needed less 'fixing' to bring up to s video sharpness levels.


p.s. you say you compared images from this thread....its far better to see it in person.

sorry for being a broken record!
Edited by Z890, Aug 23 2014, 05:06 PM.
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andyk2003
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Hey Z890 :)

I think you misunderstood my comments - I'm comparing s-video to a pure RGB signal which is a significant jump up from s-video if you have a decent display.

Also I didn't say that s-video is the same as composite - far from it, I said that it has the same colour bandwidth. S-video is an improvement from composite because it separates the luma (Y) signal from the chroma (C) signal. This means that it still doesn't separate the red, green and blue components of the signal like RGB does and results in the 'smearing' effect (compared to RGB) I was referring to.

It's so worth doing the upgrade to RGB if you can find a compatible display (most CRT TVs in Europe had RGB scart). In fact, for those looking for the highest possible N64 image quality, if you combine RGB with a high class monitor like a Sony BVM (or even a PVM) you won't believe the image you can get out of an N64, honestly. This combination is so much sharper, bolder and more colourful on my BVM-20E1E than on a TV it's unreal. The BVM is a step above even a PVM in quality and is probably the best 15Khz (retro) CRT ever made. They cost over $12,000 when new but can now be picked up for $150-$250. Some info on this monitor: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=43256


EDIT:


Reading through the posts on this thread, I realised that the comparison shots in the first post were almost definitely not based on a comparison of RGB signals.

This clarifies the whole subject:

It's best to avoid composite or s-video if you're looking for the highest possible image quality for your N64. This applies to any retro console regardless, including the funtastic N64. This is because of the inherent nature of the composite/s-video signals vs RGB. Any kind of composite or s-video output is never going to compare to a pure RGB signal.

Saying that, if you're using a lower quality display or an old TV that has a soft image due to being at the end of it's life, the differences between s-video & RGB will be less apparent.

So anyone who is looking for the perfect image quality, has a decent TV or monitor & spends a significant amount of time playing their N64 would be doing themselves a huge favour in modding their console for RGB. It's a cheap and easy mod - and put it next to a funtastic (or any) N64 on composite or s-video and there will be no comparison. It should only cost about 30-40 to have the mod done by an expert.

Admittedly this is a slightly more complex process for those that live in countries where RGB scart wasn't prevalent (i.e. the US), but retro game enthusiasts there tend to use professional CRT monitors that are RGB compatible - i.e. the Sony PVM/BVMs etc. - which can now be bought cheaply on eBay and tend to give a much better image than the average TV anyway (especially when combined with the RGB mod). The other option is to buy a transcoder to convert RGB to component.

As you say, Z890, It's likely that there will be no difference between the RGB outputs of the standard and funtastic N64s.


P.S. - One caveat to all this though, is that this approach won't necessarily be relevant to that many N64 players. Most people aren't obsessed with achieving the highest possible image quality for their games and I don't think that's a bad thing at all. I personally love to see my N64 running RGB modded & on a really exceptional quality screen and have put a lot of time into researching this - but for the majority of people, an N64, a decent TV and an s-video cable are all that's needed to have a great N64 experience - It's the games that are the most important thing here after all :)
Edited by andyk2003, Sep 14 2014, 03:20 AM.
My CRT thread:
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Travii
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I did a test using two PAL consoles. 1 Funtastic Purple & 1 charcoal.
My charcoal console is my usual console and it is connected using the consolegoods.co.uk PAL S-Video cable. I cannot recommend this highly enough if you have a PAL Aussie/UK charcoal console you NEED to get this cable.

In this little test I connected both consoles using genuine PAL composite leads to a switcher and had both running Ocarina of Time at the same time I could keep switching extremely fast between the two. There is a very noticeable difference - another person who was with me stated the Purple was easily the better picture.

Running s-video there was no noticeable difference as other have said. After this I opened them up & put the funtastic board in my charcoal console 'cause that's my main console... just in case I take it to a mate's & have to use composite I know it will look better. ^_^

If you didn't have a funtastic machine, it would be cheaper to just order an s-video cable imho.


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andykara2003
Sep 5 2014, 02:08 PM
Any kind of composite or s-video output is never going to compare to a pure RGB signal.
EVERYTHING this guy said. RGB rocks.

I live in Australia & went out of my way to get a European LCD for my lounge (Philips with RGB / VGA / hdmi / s-video)
I'm planning on getting on RGB modded N64 to run on the big screen :) I use the CRT I have because it's a decent one from the transition to flatscreen with component & s-video inputs too. but there's a myth that so many spout about composite + CRT being the best way to enjoy old games when that's BS. I think you are probably more concerned than most about image quality - it's people like you though who spread the word about how good these games CAN look.

I see massive collections worth an obscene amount on YouTube with a cheap chinese composite switcher on a crap telly. I'd be redirecting some $ to upgrading my image...
Edited by Travii, Sep 22 2014, 09:40 AM.
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andyk2003
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Nice one & great comparison test:) I also had a bit of an in-depth look at the N64's image characteristics with various displays here:

http://s9.zetaboards.com/Nintendo_64_Forever/topic/7412752/1/
Edited by andyk2003, Sep 28 2014, 07:19 AM.
My CRT thread:
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Z890
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@andykara2003,

what you say makes sense and is worth considering RGB. I take your word for it as you have been able to compare the variations with leads etc.

@Travii, thanks for testing and what you say entirely matches what i saw (for pal consoles, and yes that website to get s video for pal is great)

you confirmed that.....s video being just as good on the grey consoles (so people dont have to upgrade unless using composite)....and of course the composite improving for (at least some versions of) coloured consoles

but thats for PAL...yet on this thread for NTSC consoles, bluedogruelz said:


Quote:
 
I tested my jungle green today using s-video and composite connections. No difference detected.


That last statement I agree with for my PAL tests like his NTSC, as the s video and composite are very similar due to composite improvements on the coloured console (maybe the composite being very slightly sharper than s video, artificially so, with some artifacts compared to s video - but not anything detrimental as the sharper the better up to a point imo for n64 games)...but he also said:


Quote:
 
I have played my grey NTSC console with an S-Video, and it produces an INFERIOR display than my NTSC Jungle Green (Rev 8.0) with an S-Video.


If both statements are true then that means the NTSC coloured consoles bump up s video a notch too, and also the composite if they look the same......which would mean the PAL funtastic consoles only bring the composite up to basically the s video standard, whereas NTSC ones go a step further for s video and composite......closer to RGB standard? at least a bit closer (im not saying RGB isnt the best though).

Would be good to have others testing NTSC consoles as Travii and I seem to have got matching results but for PAL only.

As a side note i wonder what the developers (and also the reviewers like IGN/gamespot) used to view the games....whether they had better outputs (on a pc for developers?) like rgb and where seeing quality visuals before the general public were downgraded to aerial or composite (grey console)
Edited by Z890, Sep 28 2014, 05:50 PM.
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Peach'sCakeIsALie
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If the AV cables used weren't the exact same set of cables, then the comparison is flawed unfortunately. Analog cables can degrade in quality differently over time.
Edited by Peach'sCakeIsALie, Sep 29 2014, 04:00 PM.
NTSC
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thatguyontheright1
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Sorry about necro-ing the thread but I have a video where I explore this idea on a US NTSC console.

The image is definatly sharper and the colors better (whites on my charcoal greys were more grey, but actually white on my Jungle Green funtastic.)

http://youtu.be/EXOucQvvWAI?t=2m15s



I cant wait to try the RGB for all board to see if I get sharp RGB. It's coming in the mail
Check out my Youtube Channel

https://www.youtube.com/user/thatguyontheright1
Currently Playing: Final Fantasy VII, Illbleed

Starting in november, Conker's Bad Fur Day
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bluedogrulez
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There is no shame here in necro bumping if you've got something relevant to add. Look forward to viewing your video!

Edit: Great video! Confirms my observations made but not documented while using my jungle green.
Edited by bluedogrulez, Oct 4 2014, 06:34 PM.
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Mega Mania
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thatguyontheright1
Oct 4 2014, 04:07 PM
Good job! Youtube's first funtastic versus video. :yeah:
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Mega Mania
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@thatguyontheright1, I sent a PM-message.
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CZroe
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It was difficult, but my twin brother figured out how to extract the pins and disassemble the multi-out connector on an official AV cable. He was able to rearrange the pins and make our own clean-looking S-video cable. S-Video makes a HUGE difference over composite A/V. I'll dig up the pictures and create a new thread showing how to do it...

I actually *do* have an official imported S-video cable, but it was damaged. My home-made one is just as good :)
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andyk2003
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Has anyone tried an RGB modded funtastic NTSC console against an RGB modded older revision standard grey? I'm still curious as to whether there could be a difference there. The RGB mods would have to be decent (not the darker type), i.e. RGBforAll, THS7314 amp or Viletim's DAC.

I might have to buy a NTSC funtastic model & get it modded to test against my existing RGB N64s.

Does anyone have any info as to which of the NTSC funtastic consoles (US or Japanese) other than green has the 'better' revisions?

I'm guessing a safe bet would be just to stick to revision 8 consoles.
Edited by andyk2003, Mar 15 2015, 09:20 PM.
My CRT thread:
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andyk2003
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So after quite a bit of research & talking to some very switched on people, I've finally managed to get to the bottom of the 'best possible output from the N64' question.

I've found this thread so interesting because getting the best PQ from the '64 has been a real passion for me as I love this console so much. I also have a thread on this forum about my mission to find the best N64 display.

For clearing up some important tecnical aspects, huge thanks go to Marshallh (creator of the upcoming HDMI mod for the N64), Viletim (creator of the N64 DAC and NESRGB) and Link83.

It's always been common knowledge among the retro gaming scene that a decent RGB mod will always give a better image than any s-video or composite signal. For me, that's not the question - my personal question after reading this thread is:

Does an RGB modded funtastic N64 have a better output than an RGB modded standard N64?

The fact that this thread is based on - i.e. that at least some of the funtastic consoles have a sharper output - is well established, but has been based on composite and s-video signals only. I haven't seen a direct comparison of their RGB outputs. If the funtastic N64 were to produce a better RGB output than the others, then we would then have the overall best quality image that any N64 is able to produce.

This has turned out not to be the case.

An RGB modded funtastic console will look the same as any other RGB modded N64 console. This means that any revision N64 with a decent RGB mod will give the highest quality image possible from an N64.

This is useful because if we're willing to use RGB, we can discount the funtastics & just concentrate on getting the best RGB mod installation possible. Obviously, the RGB image from any N64 will always be significantly better than even the sharper funtastic N64's s-video or composite signal, thus the money spent sourcing a funtastic console for it's sharper image would be much better spent on upgrading one's existing N64 for RGB.

This is all based on using an N64 with CRT. RGB will still be better than s-video or composite on any TV type, but if a flat panel is being used then Marshallh's HDMI mod will the best route. For me, though, CRT will always be my choice as I love the qualities of a decent CRT's image, particularly for the N64.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's the reasoning & some facts I discovered:

For the purposes of this, I'm making the assumption that a decent RGB mod will be used which includes RGB amplification. The best RGB mods at the moment are the THS7314 amp (NTSC Revisions 1-4 or rare French PAL revision only), Viletim's DAC (any N64) and the 'RGB for all' DAC from Otaku (any N64). Both the PAL and NTSC funtastics are only moddable with Viletim's or Otaku's mods, not the THS7314 as they are later revisions.

So the sharper N64s aren't just limited to the funtastic N64s - they're actually a revision of N64 which includes some standard grey N64s as well. For NTSC, the funtastics are revision 8 (NUS-CPU-08) so any other revision 8 will do, possibly some earlier revisions as well. Actually, it's better to go by console revision than whether the console is a funtastic or not. We already know that the ice blue PAL funtastic doesn't follow the 'funtastics are sharper' rule and there's not enough information on the NTSC funtastics yet. You can find the motherboard revision of an N64 from looking up it's serial number online. (check out Link83's research).

As Link83 mentioned, Nintendo started to consolidate the video output chips after certain console revisions. For NTSC, it was revision 5. Before, the N64s had this video circuitry:
RCP > DAC > ENCODER > OUTPUT
and for the newer revisions:
RPC > DAC+ENCODER > OUTPUT
This meant that for the later revisions (including the funtastics), the access to analogue RGB needed for the THS7314 mod was no longer there - which means you need to replace the entire DAC to get RGB from these. The mods that can do that (i.e. Viletim's etc.) look the same as the early-revision THS7314 RGB mod image-wise (I have N64s with both mod types), hence there being no difference in RGB output across all revisions - thus image-wise, the RGB funtastic = any other RGB N64.

I agree with Link83 when he says:
'pictures on the right dont actually look better to me'
'To me it looks like the equivalent of turning up the sharpness control on your TV, which adds image data which shouldnt really be there. '
'Getting the best video output possible by RGB modding the console is different, since RGB gives the cleanest possible video signal but doesnt actually change the source picture/graphics in any way'

In conclusion:

To get the best image on a CRT, RGB modding is the best way - regardless of console revision or whether it's the funtastic model.
To get the best image from a flat panel, wait for Marshall's excellent HDMI mod - http://retroactive.be/tech_n64_hdmi.php

For me? RGB & CRT all the way :)



--------------
Edited by andyk2003, Mar 17 2015, 05:25 PM.
My CRT thread:
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action
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is it a coincidence that prices of funtastics have skyrocketed? check ebay :blink: 110 euro for a barebones grape console + controller, is not a rare example anymore. and to think i bought one for 40 euro on a flea market, after haggling the seller who wanted 50 euro, since it had a sticky reset button (obviously he must have thought the sticky reset button was irreparable, but i happen to have the right bit and cleaned it like brand new)
Edited by action, Mar 18 2015, 04:03 PM.
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bluedogrulez
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Given this thread's reference in a recent My Life in Gaming video, I'm giving it a bump so folks can learn more about this topic. Not all funtastics are equal in this regard (and sadly, this point was missed by MLIG), but there is a difference to be enjoyed (for me, its on my Jungle Green, though you'll have to read the thread for the board revision, because frankly I forget :facepalm: )

EDIT: It's an 8.0 motherboard. I also added some EDITs to my prior posts for continuity. There are some long detailed posts in this thread, so felt some clarification on my older posts might help.
Edited by bluedogrulez, Oct 27 2015, 11:09 AM.
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Z890
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You finding that RGB is just as good on standard coloured consoles is in line with me seeing that the standard s video is no different (just as sharp etc) as my pal green funtastic console.

No need to get funtastic if you are using s video or rgb then it seems. Funtastic only improved the composite sharpness. Seeing as many tvs now leave out s video but composite is usually supported having a funtastic for composite use (if you havent got it rgb modded) is worth while for tv compatibility.
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bluedogrulez
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Z890
Nov 4 2015, 04:05 PM
Funtastic only improved the composite sharpness.
Without rehashing our prior exchanges, I disagree. In NTSC land, my experience is that the funtastic board revision 8.0 sharpens and lightens the display noticeably. This experience was with an S-video cable (both OEM and cheapo third party). It may not hold true for PAL consoles, and obviously, not all funtastics have board revisions 8.0 or 8.1.
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Z890
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Yes for my observation in PAL only. NTSC I havent tested and remember you did say that before.

Dont know if i have 8 or 8.1 revision funtastic in pal but its definately the improved version that sharpens composite massively.
Edited by Z890, Nov 5 2015, 08:47 AM.
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Mega Mania
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I look forward to when something information about from Japanese console. :)

Does anyone know of a video/retro game forums in Japan? The language of English or Japanese.
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FoamCow
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Hey guys, anyone know what price I should set as a limit () for the funtastic consoles (PAL) really want to know as I'm very much on the verge of buying one.
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Cabanon
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the cheaper, the better.
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bluedogrulez
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Loose funtastics are not generally than expensive, as an ebay search will substantiate. Boxed funtastics are another story. I have not seen any price increase for the serial number consoles with the motherboard revisions discussed in this thread.
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FoamCow
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I've bought a jungle green console off eBay, only thing that's annoying is the fact it doesn't have a EXT lid/cover. I've seen the prices on eBay for these are its ridiculous to pay that amount for a little bit of plastic! Anyone got any advice?
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bluedogrulez
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3rd party covers selling VERY cheap on eBay (us). Just about to order one myself.
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Turok81
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What exactly is the difference between the ICE BLUE and the CLEAR BLUE, in terms of appearance. There seems to be a lot of blue colored funtastics around, and I'd like to pick one up if I find a cheap one in good condition, but I'm not sure which is which. Based on the information here, it sounds like the Ice Blue is the one to avoid. So how exactly do they look like?
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Djhninja
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Turok81
Feb 10 2016, 06:36 PM
What exactly is the difference between the ICE BLUE and the CLEAR BLUE, in terms of appearance. There seems to be a lot of blue colored funtastics around, and I'd like to pick one up if I find a cheap one in good condition, but I'm not sure which is which. Based on the information here, it sounds like the Ice Blue is the one to avoid. So how exactly do they look like?
I'm pretty sure that the clear blue has a white part on the bottom. Can anyone confirm this?

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