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Is Nintendo losing it?; Discussion- not a criticism thread
Topic Started: Apr 12 2016, 09:34 PM (1,806 Views)
Bamboozled
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veteran of the psychic wars
Note: This is supposed to be a discussion. I am not hating on Nintendo, just trying to ask you guys what you think and if my reasoning does justify my points.

With the release of an excerpt from the French documentary "Otaku" from 1994 on YouTube about Nintendo during the SNES era, I came to wonder.

Is Nintendo losing it?

I mean, if you want to look at this with sales, like, "PS4 and XBOX have sold way more!" you can. That is, in the end, what actually matters for a company when all is done. If any developer actually only cared about providing a good game to everyone, they would be for free. That obviously doesn't work, and there's no criticism there. Of course we have to buy our games, or else how will they stay afloat? You can also look at the technical specs, like the Wii U, admittedly, is awful in internal storage.

But there is the absolutely classic "Nintendo" quality. You know, like giving players a straight answer about why the Badge Arcade isn't free. Or giving you a penalty in Pokkťn Tournament for "rage quitting", which is a stand that not many fighting games have taken. That quality is what makes Nintendo so lovable, so entertaining. They have been making very good games lately that are new and yet still classic. But not in the "Mario 1-1" kind of classic, the aforementioned Nintendo classic.

So, back to the SNES documentary (which I will provide you with a link to). Miyamoto discusses a lot, but a certain quote is:

"It is above all a competition between the developer and the customer. We try not to see the other companies as competition. We are only concerned with the quality of a new game when compared with the old ones."

I think Nintendo still upholds this. But what gets me is that Masayuki Uemura, who was a designer for the Famicom, says,

"We determine our pricing on the average allowance of a Japanese child."

This, I think, they no longer think about. What makes me think this? Well...

In the summer of last year, Nintendo left us nothing. We got Splatoon in spring, and then had to hold out till the winter, where the instant cash-ins were released for the holidays. *I am pretty sure Lithium did a video on this. I will link to it as well.* The real problem here isn't that I think these games are bad or something. It's actually that this is impossible for say, a kid who gets $15 a month from his parents, to afford. The surge of games at the same time, I think, shows that they need the releases to compete.

So, this is an inference from an inference, but what I just said (they need the releases) would contradict my point that they still uphold their thing from the Miyamoto quote. Quality-wise, they're doing great! Nintendo really has been amazing lately.

Also, I'm not hating on Nintendo. I'm just wanting to discuss this with you guys and see what you think and maybe share something with me.

(Otaku Video: http://bit.ly/1N7BsRl )

(Lithium017 Summer Video: http://bit.ly/1TQimAH )
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stinger9142
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Endure and survive...
I will be bluntly honest. Nintendo has lost me pretty much after the N64. The Gamecube failed to capture my interest, and I fell in love with the PS2. The Wii further distanced me from it. They still continued to make some fun games (Mario Karts and Smash Bros mainly I.M.O.) but they lost me by not having games I was dying to play.

I felt like especially with the Wii, the focus was about getting non gamers to try gaming. It worked too. Almost everyone I knew owned a Wii, even the ones who had never owned a system before or in years. Once the novelty of Wii Sports wore off, none of them touched it again. None of the games on the Wii were enough for me to want one. When my wife's brother would bring his over to get togethers, I would shake my head watching him dig out the 37 controllers and attachments needed for us to play Smash or Mario Kart. Wiimote, Nunchaku, Classic Controller, Wii Wheel, Wavebirds (for smashing), and so on. :rollseyes: It was literally a dufflebag of 4 of each of those PLUS more.

I was later gifted a Gamecube and a Wii. Both of which continue to fail to garner my attention. The DS and Pokemon were about the only thing from Nintendo that kept me hooked.

Back in the day, I was die hard Nintendo through and through. I despised anything else. Since the 64 though, it has been Sony that has delivered for me. In my mind, the 64 was the peak of Nintendo.
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Cabanon
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what stinger said, after n64.......maybe it's just normal since we were getting older and the gamecube library was meh or not appealing to us.
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stinger9142
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Endure and survive...
I will also throw out there that losing Rare hurt A LOT. I was poised to buy a GC in 2001/2002. When they scrapped the then in works Zelda game in favor of Wind Walker, I lost all interest. Later on I borrowed a GC and Twilight Princess. It was a great game, but I had no interest in the GC beyond that point.
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kartmaster
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Nintendo for as long as I can remember has always had droughts. On my blog back in the day I started to go through every one of my N64 games and write about them in the order I acquired them. It was sometimes shocking to realize how many months had gone by in between some of the titles.

Games then were more expensive than they are now. Heck in the SNES days of that interview, some RPGs were $90!

So I don't think the price or number of releases has really changed for the worse significantly since the SNES days. But this is a completely different market now. Technology moves so fast that you have to make predictions on where consumers are going to be when you finally get there with your product. It's kinda like forecasting a hurricane. It could hit Miami, or it could hit Charleston.

Nintendo has had a particularly bad couple of strokes in predicting how quickly consumers are going to adopt new technologies, and how quickly those costs would come down.

Take their decision to not include HD in the Wii. In 2006 this made a lot of sense. Video standards had been completely unchanged for over 50 years before, and less than 20% of people had an HDTV which cost $2,000 and up. By the end of the Wii's life, people were leaving their CRTs on the curb for free.

R&D for Wii U likely started shortly after the Wii was released. A time where only about 25% of people had a smart device of any kind. By the time Wii U came out, over 70% of people already had a smartphone and/or tablet. A lot of potential game ideas are suddenly $0.99 games in the App Store and Nintendo can't compete at that price. They're left having to explain to consumers what the Wii U can do that standalone tablets CAN'T do and that's "asynchronous gameplay". A concept they never really did a good job of selling, and I honestly think is one they never expected would have to be the driving quality of the system.

Nintendo did some good business pushing the industry ahead in terms of innovation and what you could do within a video game. They also did so at a time when technology really was a big limitation. Now technology has gotten to the point that it's your imagination and ideas that are the limiting factor. So stuff like the Wii U seems like a really forced and one trick idea. Here's hoping NX is a step back towards the center... but knowing Nintendo, I'm not holding my breath.
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floorcat
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As far as games & releases to satisfy their fans, I think they're getting better... now picking up the pieces ever so slowly from the shattered mess of their hubris following the success of the Wii. I do have serious issue with a few other things regarding Nintendo as a company, though. Without going on an extended rant, I'll just leave these bullets:

  • Failing to support one of their employees (Alison Rapp) - and instead firing her - following a massive online smear campaign
  • Predatory practices on YouTubers
  • Artificial scarcity
  • Lack of transparency/communication with the community (e.g. Mario Maker level removals)
Because of the above, I am not a Nintendo fan. But Nintendo CAN address these points one way or another (and I hope they will). If/when they do, I will be in full support of Nintendo once again.
Now Playing: Clash Royale (mobile), Gravity Rush 2, Project CARS, Uncharted 4 Survival Mode ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ
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Milage007
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I agree with Stinger. For me after / during N64 I got a Dreamcast (how short lived was that?!) which I played in addition to my N64. I too went on to the PS2 and the GC wasn't really appealing to me at the time. I'd grown (as very young teenager) more into a lover of games like GTA III rather than still playing the platform games the N64 was so good for. I did get a GC eventually and very much enjoyed Mario Kart DD with my friends and the Rezi franchise re-launched and additions to. But that was about it for me personally. I do have a Wii and I enjoy it for what it is. But it's not a console that has consistently had me coming back. Still necessary in any collection for sure.

I will hopefully get a WiiU eventually as I like the look of some games. But I have to say I enjoy playing the PS4 in my very little spare time when I am not working (or retro gaming) so just don't feel I'd have the time for that. I may get one when they are cheap like I did with the Wii.

This has been a fairly poor summary, but it is my story, but in a nutshell I would say yes. I love the classics. They are untouchable. Timeless classics. Somewhere down the line the Nintendo games did stop grabbing me. I do like the look of them still though so it is hard to tell. As I have said previously if Nintendo was able to compete with Sony and Microsoft and still have its exclusive games it would be perfect, well almost perfect. Only the N64 is perfection eh Bam?
Edited by Milage007, Apr 13 2016, 12:46 PM.
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stinger9142
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Endure and survive...
Good comments guys :yeah: I am kind of relieved. Worried other's wouldn't share my view ;)
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No64DD
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Just seen the commercial for StarFox ZERO. The gameplay took me back to 1997!
Nintendo certainly hasn't hit my nostalgia like that in decades.

good topic Bam.
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TofuJunky87
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Do you tofu?
I'd have to agree with stinger and milage. I had very similar experiences. After the days of N64, the PS2 got all of my love and the GCN and DC weren't even on my radar. Ever since, I have been a Playstation guy and only now, am I going back to play GCN and DC because I want to search for some of those classics I missed. While my GCN collection has some very awesome games in it (Mario Kart DD is one of my favorite games of all time), it is markedly smaller and as such, doesn't get played like the N64 or PS2 do, even now. I have to agree with the general consensus here that Nintendo lost my interest after the N64. I vehemently hated the Wii, but I've found myself liking the Wii U only for the games the Nintendo has produced for it, albeit the library size is laughable. I also agree that Starfox Zero got my attention more than any single Nintendo item has since the N64, which is why I pre ordered it.

In the end, I'm praying that Nintendo figures out what they are doing with the NX but I'm scared that my next purchase will still be a PS5 and not an NX.


We all just need to start an online petition to get Nintendo to create the N642

Of course we aren't in 64 bit gaming anymore... How many bits is it now? lol like N6.4million
Edited by TofuJunky87, Apr 13 2016, 03:12 PM.
Current 64 Collection: Grey, Jungle, Fire, Ice, Smoke, Watermelon, Grape, Gold, JP Blue/Clear, Daiei Hawks
Current Game Count: 324
Current Controller Count: 32

:n64: 4ever

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sublime1996525
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I also agree with what has been mentioned. I went from the N64 to the PS2 and kind of lost my love for Nintendo. I did buy a GC and mostly enjoyed it but always came back to the PS2. When I was in the military, all my guys got Xbox 360's so I joined in and have been a MS homer since. Mostly play Xbox One with some N64 sprinkled in. I don't think I've turned my GC on in probably 8 years and my Wii is mostly used for GC games lol.
Oh one thing Nintendo does seem to be doing really well is with its DS/3DS.
Edited by sublime1996525, Apr 13 2016, 10:22 PM.
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action
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all my personal opinion, none of this is factual or claiming to be absolute truth, and some may even offend you for which i apologize, but you asked my opinion on this so here goes nothing:

SNES: countless of games in all genres. graphics were awesome, hand drawn. you could really let your imagination work. music generally kicked :donkey: with lots of cool guitar sounding tunes. gameplay was hard as nails. every game was a challenge. even games as short as 30 minutes, had a longevity that you just dont see anymore. 30 minutes of super probotector is infinitely more enjoyable than 70 hours of "the last of us"

N64: less games, but still had most of the essential third party games: wipeout, duke nukem, destruction derby, castlevania, v rally, resident evil. in the case of the N64, less was more since the quality of the great games reached heights not achieved on any other nintendo console.

gamecube: more third party games than the N64. quality of the nintendo games was hit and miss. starfox assault being a relative dissapointment. still, there were countless games that in itself justified the purchase of a gamecube: twin snakes, REmake, rogue squadron II + III, eternal darkness, resident evil 4, twilight princess, metroid prime

Wii: the shovelware machine. probably has the largest library of a nintendo console. the ratio bad - good games is the lowest of any nintendo console. i'd consider 2% of the library to be of acceptable quality. the rest is not up to the quality of past consoles. the worst console in nintendo history. i hate everything about it: the console design, the lack of coloured buttons, the complex menus, the games, the graphics (worse than the gamecube most of the time).. even the name is cringeworthy

WiiU: the biggest commercial failure, and with reason. library of too one-sided. too many games of the mario / luigi / toad world. no new zelda, no f zero, no starfox, no waverace, no snowboarding, no eternal darkness. not to mention the complete absence of third party support. the console looks even worse than the Wii, with a curious tablet controller, no coloured buttons which i consider a nintendo trademark since the SNES days. only postive thing i can say about it, is the WiiU has the best games out of the current gen consoles. PS4 and XBONE are even worse with just annual call of duty / assassins creed and remasters. in the case of the PS4, it doesnt even get backwards compatibility right.

in conclusion, i'd say nintendo has certainly lost its mojo. (but so did the entire games industry).
Edited by action, Apr 14 2016, 12:26 PM.
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TofuJunky87
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Do you tofu?
I'd agree with the majority of what action said. In fact, despite always being an N64 fan, my disenfranchisement with Nintendo products as of late, especially the Wii (though the Wii U is slightly better imo because of its lesser focus on god awful gimmicky motion controls), is what pushed me to rekindle my love for the N64. I even bought a GCN just to try to capture the last of the fading Nintendo magic of the 90s before the commercial novelty that was the Wii hit.

I agree action, the GCN had a lot of disappointing titles, like the Starfox games, but it has just enough to keep it in my collection. Games like Mario Kart DD, FZero GX, Star Wars Rogue 2 & 3, and even Mario Sunshine/Luigis Mansion. Heck, I even enjoy 1080 Avalanche and Wave Race Blue Storm (better than the originals imo). That and I love the Gameboy player :yeah:


"Wii: the shovelware machine." Probably the most true thing I've heard all day. Another reason I hated it.


I'm not a huge fan of the Wii U but I do feel that its first party titles are its main saving grace, albeit they are a little heavy on the Mario side. For Mario lovers, its a dream come true but I wish there were more diversity like F Zero and such. Hopefully the new Starfox Zero will offer some level of redemption. I'll find out next friday >_>
Current 64 Collection: Grey, Jungle, Fire, Ice, Smoke, Watermelon, Grape, Gold, JP Blue/Clear, Daiei Hawks
Current Game Count: 324
Current Controller Count: 32

:n64: 4ever

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stinger9142
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Endure and survive...
I guess in terms of other consoles it comes down to the types of games you enjoy more. The games I enjoy and look forward to the most are not offered on the Wii U. GTA , Red Dead, Elder Scrolls, The Witcher, Assassin's Creed, The Last of Us, Uncharted, Fallout, Battlefield, and The Division are the type of games I will throw 100-200 hours on easily. I like good stories, and games that make me feel like I am a part of their world. I like long games, or games that are so good I want to play through them 5 or 6 times.


Overall I feel games now are better than they were 20 and even 10 years ago.
Now as far as the direction of digital only games and such, I am not a fan of that. I just feel like I encounter a lot more high quality games than I used to.

I do certainly hope the NX changes how I feel about Nintendo :yeah:
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Karsty5
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The GCN guy
Am I the only one who actually likes all Nintendo consoles? :P

Seriously, though, the Wii introduced me to Nintendo and video games in general, so it will always have a place in my heart, but "the shovelware machine" is definitely true. The GameCube is actually one of my favorite consoles, though that could be because I have more games for it than my SNES and N64 combined.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd7OLL-vIfr4bMQhasZ6a1A - My YouTube Channel
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Milage007
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I think Stinger you and I are pretty much on the same page when it comes to this. I too hope the NX can revive things again and start competing with the other two players.

:yeah:
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Mantis128
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I've barely tried anything new from Nintendo since 2008-2009 but what I have played is still very fun and well designed. My main gripe is how easy they make their games now. 100 1-Ups in SM3DL by the time the game gets hard along with the white tanooki suit, a built in walkthrough in OOT 3D, getting multiple Pokemon to Lv 100 with no effort etc.

@ Floorcat Nintendo probably would have fired AR eventually anyway, campaign or no campaign. She was very vocal about legalising CP, and not even pretend manga stuff, full on real life CP *shudders*.
Any company, especially a large one like Nintendo would have dropped her ASAP.
Edited by Mantis128, Apr 15 2016, 09:40 PM.
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D.J Cat
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I haven't played enough of their newer stuff to make a fair judgde of it to be honest.

What I have played has been fun or pretty good though.
Just haven't seen anything that makes me need a Wii U yet.

Give me a new Zelda and I will be in .

And as said before the N64 was the peak of everything, all the best games were made before 2001, Nintendo are not as good as they were, but same as all game makers, not really their fault, more on society and that's where the money is and people keep buying the same sequels etc.

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TofuJunky87
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Do you tofu?
I think for many of us, an element of age has something to do with it. At some point, platformers and such have less appeal to the more adult oriented games. Don't get me wrong, I still own many platformers new and old and play them frequently, but Mario sees nowhere near the screen time that, say, GTA or Red Dead does. I still enjoy Nintendo titles, but they can't hold my attention for over 50+ hours of gameplay.

I don't blame it on a lack of quality. I blame it on not being in the target demographic anymore.
Current 64 Collection: Grey, Jungle, Fire, Ice, Smoke, Watermelon, Grape, Gold, JP Blue/Clear, Daiei Hawks
Current Game Count: 324
Current Controller Count: 32

:n64: 4ever

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Bamboozled
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TofuJunky87
Apr 16 2016, 10:05 AM
I blame it on not being in the target demographic anymore.
Well, they're evidently not selling to their target demographic either. :-/
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stinger9142
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Endure and survive...
Well said to you both, Bamb and Tofu :yeah:
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Shangyou
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Dreamwalker
To be honest, I was never really much of a Nintendo home console fan. I was born in the early 90s so the first home console I ever got was a PlayStation, and then > PS2 > Xbox 360 > PS4. However, I had every Nintendo handheld console since the Game Boy Color, and I loved my Game Boy Advance more than my PS2. The GBA was my favourite console because it had amazing game franchises like Mega Man Battle Network, Boktai, and of course, Pokemon.

In 2006 I picked up Mario Kart DS and that kickstarted my love for Nintendo's first party characters and games. I actually bought a N64 just to play Mario Kart 64 since I loved Mario Kart DS so much, but I fell in love with the console and ended up buying Perfect Dark, GoldenEye, Super Mario 64, Conker's BFD, Super Smash Bros, and Mario Party shortly thereafter, which started me on my N64 collection. Over the next couple of years I bought a GameCube and Wii as well, but they never really caught my attention the same way the N64 did. I still have yet to purchase a Wii U but I probably will when I can find a console for less than $50 in a couple of years. The only game I really want to play on the Wii U is Splatoon and I can't justify spending hundreds on dollars on it just for that.

All that being said, I think Nintendo's handhelds have always been (and still are) really solid. As far as handhelds are concerned, I think most can agree that the DS has the single best game library of all time due to the sheer amount of diverse and decent games on the system. For the current generation, the 3DS has had some amazing games thus far and that DS backward compatibility helps a lot as well. I do think that many of their first party games on the 3DS haven't been all that great though. I felt that Super Mario 64 DS was better than SM3DLand, the Kirby DS games were better than Kirby Triple Deluxe, and the Fire Emblem DS games were better than the Fire Emblem 3DS games. Kid Icarus Uprising was amazing though and it's probably my favourite 3DS game. There are plenty of other great 3rd party games on the 3DS as well like Bravely Default, Monster Hunter, and Phoenix Wright. I just wish Nintendo made sure that their home consoles after the N64 had the same strong game support as their handhelds.
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Karsty5
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Bamboozled
Apr 16 2016, 10:40 AM
Well, they're evidently not selling to their target demographic either. :-/
Tablets + VG industry = destruction :(
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D.J Cat
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Well said Tofu.

Sort or that and just the time restraints of life these days/growing up/having a job etc.
The spare time I have these days compared to as a kid is so, so much less, and as a result you want to spend your limited time playing a game you know you like rather than play a new game you might or might not like.

Now back to trying to beat Water Caverns on 00 Agent...😎
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action
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from the reviews i seen, it seems nintendo has yet again screwed things up. star fox zero is reported to have very confusing motion controls. this game could have been such a classic. it has more than 10 action packed levels with great graphics, but the one thing everyone wants: classic controls, they failed to deliver.

and thus, the WiiU chapter ends. with a dissapointment. i really hoped this would be the game to convince me, but no.

why does nintendo think they need to "get on with the times" and shove motion controls through our throats? nobody wants them. it was a gimmick in 2007, quickly became annoying and nothing has really changed since then. sony abandoned motion controls years ago. kinect is a failure. really, who cares, nintendo? just give us a classic controller and be done with all this motion nonsense :rollseyes:
Edited by action, Apr 21 2016, 06:57 AM.
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TofuJunky87
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Do you tofu?
I'm gonna try my darnedest to like Starfox Zero when it arrives tomorrow. I'm so scared I won't like it. But you're right action, Nintendo feels this constant need to change or "improve" things. What they don't realize is that sometimes a formula doesn't need to be improved. Maybe people would rather use regular controllers than motion control. Maybe people would rather just have new Starfox 64 with new levels and bosses rather than, say, making it an RPG or jacking up the controls.

Sometimes, a formula is timeless, so leave it the way it is. It doesn't need improved, it doesn't need tweaked, it doesn't need modernized. Just make another one the same way you did last time and slap a "2" on it.
Current 64 Collection: Grey, Jungle, Fire, Ice, Smoke, Watermelon, Grape, Gold, JP Blue/Clear, Daiei Hawks
Current Game Count: 324
Current Controller Count: 32

:n64: 4ever

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bluedogrulez
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TofuJunky87
Apr 21 2016, 07:26 AM
Sometimes, a formula is timeless, so leave it the way it is. It doesn't need improved, it doesn't need tweaked, it doesn't need modernized. Just make another one the same way you did last time and slap a "2" on it.
I have made this analogy before, but there is nothing more I wanted during my high school and college years that an Appetite for Destruction 2. The thing is, creative types do not like to regurgitate masterpieces. They want to exist unto themselves, and do nothing to tarnish them. And to more onto another quest.

And it USUALLY does not work in movies. Sequels usually fail to capture the magic of the first. Bigger and better usually leads to more ludicrous and stupid.

Like Karsty5, I have an affinity for all of the Nintendo console. They may just make me a fan boy. But I'll defend the gamepad though I might as well scream it in the woods. What is it offering in Star Fox Zero appears to be is VR that you don't have to strap on your head. We saw it a smidgen in Nintendo Land, and that was cool. And its use in Splatoon took some getting used to, but it is way cool . . . you have to get more physically engaged in the game . . . how I love spinning around nervously checking the flanks for enemy squidlings. So when we pop in Star Fox Zero for the first few times, remember, just because there is a learning curve does not make it "unplayable" or a bad game.

Nintendo has always marched to its own drummer. Unfortunately, the era of forcing other to march to their beat appears to be over.
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D.J Cat
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I haven't played a whole heap of Nintendo games over the last decade, but 2 spring to mind, and both I consider as some of the best in their franchise and of all time, and I don't say that lightly.

Super Mario Galaxy
Zelda: Skyward Sword


...now, for when I wake up or just later...time to try and beat Aztec on 00 Agent.
Fond memories of when I finally achieved that on a Saturday morning as a 10 year old in 1998 the day I got my new bike 👍😍 :n64:
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action
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D.J Cat
Apr 21 2016, 10:31 AM
I haven't played a whole heap of Nintendo games over the last decade, but 2 spring to mind, and both I consider as some of the best in their franchise and of all time, and I don't say that lightly.

Super Mario Galaxy
Zelda: Skyward Sword


...now, for when I wake up or just later...time to try and beat Aztec on 00 Agent.
Fond memories of when I finally achieved that on a Saturday morning as a 10 year old in 1998 the day I got my new bike 👍😍 :n64:
Aztec is insane, even on agent.

good luch 8)
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TofuJunky87
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Do you tofu?
@bdr I'm going to do my best to keep an open mind when I play SFZ tomorrow. At least I know what I'm getting myself into so I won't be surprised by the weird controls. Unfortunately for me, I don't own (nor have I ever played) Splatoon, so my learning curve may be steeper than most. Good news though, I have a wife who loves Wii U and lives for Co-op games so SFZ may be something that works better in that capacity.

At the end of the day, even if I think the game is a steaming pile due to "innovative controls", it will still look sexy on the shelf in my collection! :yeah:

...always a silver lining....
Current 64 Collection: Grey, Jungle, Fire, Ice, Smoke, Watermelon, Grape, Gold, JP Blue/Clear, Daiei Hawks
Current Game Count: 324
Current Controller Count: 32

:n64: 4ever

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