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INEPTA: Or, SEPTA: The Early Years - 1968 to 1985; Lets bring up some old memories...
Topic Started: Dec 5 2008, 11:36 PM (9,508 Views)
Neoei3318
Transit Historian
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Okay, I was at 1234 today, when I actually got mesmerized by the transit memorabilia that is shown in the glass cases. When it hit me:

There's really not too much talk on the boards about SEPTA's early years, other than the two sentence history of the takeover from Red Arrow Lines, PTC and the PRR and RDG Company commuter rail operations.

Let me clarify. MTA and New York City's "Deferred Maintenace" Era is well documented (nycsubway.orgnycsubway.org) and stuff of legend.

Now, I know SEPTA was not immune to the problems of lackluster maintenance or incidents that affected operations : There was the Woodland Barn fire, The PCC's with seat cushions for brakes and I heard the Flxibles were lemons-- although not nearly as bad as the AMG's. David Gunn supposedly turned things around, yet the AMG's, RTSII's, and yet, the Reading Viaduct fiasco are tied to his legacy as well.

Now I know this is a vehicle fourm, first and foremost, and I'm also aware that some of these topics can be split up into single topic threads. However, I'm looking for some general discussion among our "Transit Historians", while learning about what is growing to be a "lost era": We have the 90's and 2000's well docked. I want to learn more about the past.

Before we dive in, here's what I feel should be discussed.

Stuff of interest:

- Did SEPTA try to emulate the style of PTC and Red Arrow in its early years?

- What were the last days of PTC operations like? How much personnel transfer to SEPTA?

- Route Restructuring in the CTD, Red Arrow and Frontier Divisions.

- Station renovations on the Market Street Subway (34th to 2nd Street, Subway Surface also welcome)

- The Broad Street Subway Extension from Snyder to Pattison

- The performance of inherited PTC Buses, such as the GM New Looks
(When were they retired, and how many lasted along with the SEPTA bought equipment?)

- The Performance of B1 through B3's and how they barely managed to survive until the arrival of the B IV's.

- B4's and LRV's: did they run like magic right out of the box?

- The addition of Blue to the SEPTA logo, and the vehicles

- The sudden downsizing of the M3 fleet and their overhauls.

- Transit Strikes

- Maps and Signage

- BUSES to Discuss:

# 1984 Neoplan USA An435-BP
# 1982-85 Neoplan An440 AK-CD series
# 1979 American General/Flyer 10240-T Trackless Trolleys
# 1971-1976 Flxible New Looks
# 1963-1970General Motors Fishbowls
# 1980 General Motors RTS II's (T8W603/T8J603 are 40 footers, T7W603 is the 35 foots
# 1984 Volvo B-10m Articulated buses (known to philadelphians as "Accordion buses")
# 1947 J.G. Brill and Company TC-44 Trackless Trolleys
# 1955-1957 General Motors Old Looks

- Obscure routes like the "Downtown Loop"

- Lastly, the general perception of quality of the system before and after David Gunn's tenure:
(Did he REALLY turn SEPTA around, or is it smoke and mirrors?).

- Basically, has the system improved, since those early years?

Here's what I feel SHOULD NOT be discussed (Do not hijack this thread with the following).

STUFF NOT OF INTEREST IN THIS THREAD:

Any SEPTA vehicle made after 1980 (Exceptions are RTS II's, Volvo's, Neoplan's up to 1983 and Kawasaki's)
That Means:
CURRENT ACTIVE Buses such as NABIS, NEW FLYERS and NEOPLAN ARTICS
CURRENT ACTIVE Rail Equipment (Exceptions are Silverliners)

As always, any info helps. Share and Discuss. Be candid. Be detailed. Horror stories are strongly welcome.
Thanks.
Edited by Neoei3318, Dec 5 2008, 11:43 PM.
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Van2006ko
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Well I wasn't around during the 1970s, my earliest memories was from 1988-1989 when the Neoplans dominated the fleet with some flexible present still around. I grew up mainly in the 1990s, with the Neoplans still dominating most of the fleet.

On the bus front, the buses I can discuss are the:
# 1984 Neoplan USA An435-BP
# 1982-85 Neoplan An440 AK-CD series
# 1980 General Motors RTS II's (T8W603/T8J603 are 40 footers, T7W603 is the 35 foots
# 1984 Volvo B-10m Articulated buses (known to philadelphians as "Accordion buses"

I do have several questions about these aforementioned units though:
Was the entire fleet of Neoplan BP was initially assigned to Allegheny to operate on the route(s) 35?

By 1995, Two Volvos artics were removed from service leaving 48 Volvos in service. what happened to the buses removed from service?

As you guys may or may not know I'm currently doing research on these units and hopefully some day soon can published it on this site. I do believe most discussions around here are about either 5251 or 7101. However, I cling onto the buses operated in Philadelphia throughout the late 80s-early 90s.

As far as the Flxibles are concerned...
Check the attachment -
Attached to this post:
Attachments: septamotorbushistory2.jpg (178.73 KB)
Edited by Van2006ko, Dec 6 2008, 01:54 PM.
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Mr. Transit
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I've been using PTC/SEPTA over forty plus years. My fondest memories as a child were riding the old Davy Crocket's on the Rt. Z, which became the Rt. 35. I still remember the kerosene smell inside the bus and stepping on the center door treadle and the alarm bell going on, then the old bus driver telling us, "to get the hell off of them" Later when I went to high school riding the 5000-5099 GMC New Looks home, trying to navigate up the hill on Ridge Ave on a school charter or the A-exp., with the bus smoking like a locomotive.
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ED77KATR
Transit Fan
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When I first started at SEPTA in 1978 the fleet was a horrible mess. at any given time half of it was out of service. The buses were deathtraps!!! Leaking fuel, BALD tires,NO AC, no right side mirrows[i got pics posted here to prove it],no power steering, compartment doors &windows flapping open&swinging out and scraping parked cars. The reverse in most didnt work especially the 60s GM fishbowls. The 71-75 Flexibles ya had to rip open a panel and use a coin or screwdriver and jump a circut[no16] without getting shocked!!!try that in the rain LOL. Ya make a sharp right turn and the battery trays would fly out the side of the chassis[sometimes with ugly or humorous results].The frames were all broken and YES I had a engine fall out on 52nd st in early 1979. Now the brakes were another story, i got real religious everytime i hit the sobs. SLACK [code 83 over radio] was common. it was like driving a rickity cattle truck down the line. Also they were pig sties!! Roaches and YES RATS!! rode on them too.Never was graffitti wiped off, i remember as i drove down 52nd st kids just spray painted away in the back until the fumes were over bearing. The peak years of these disasterous times were 1978 -1982. It took the order of RTS &Neos to start the healing prosess. Then in early 80s some 4000 GMs were rehabbed but they didnt last. SEPTA should be proud of todays fleet as it is modern now and well cared for. But the memories i have!!! i retired 2 weeks ago. Love it! thanks for letting me vent LOL, this is only scrating the surface of how bad it was! Ed
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CACrafter88bk2504
Transit Historian
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ED77KATR
Dec 8 2008, 05:18 PM
When I first started at SEPTA in 1978 the fleet was a horrible mess. at any given time half of it was out of service. The buses were deathtraps!!! Leaking fuel, BALD tires,NO AC, no right side mirrows[i got pics posted here to prove it],no power steering, compartment doors &windows flapping open&swinging out and scraping parked cars. The reverse in most didnt work especially the 60s GM fishbowls. The 71-75 Flexibles ya had to rip open a panel and use a coin or screwdriver and jump a circut[no16] without getting shocked!!!try that in the rain LOL. Ya make a sharp right turn and the battery trays would fly out the side of the chassis[sometimes with ugly or humorous results].The frames were all broken and YES I had a engine fall out on 52nd st in early 1979. Now the brakes were another story, i got real religious everytime i hit the sobs. SLACK [code 83 over radio] was common. it was like driving a rickity cattle truck down the line. Also they were pig sties!! Roaches and YES RATS!! rode on them too.Never was graffitti wiped off, i remember as i drove down 52nd st kids just spray painted away in the back until the fumes were over bearing. The peak years of these disasterous times were 1978 -1982. It took the order of RTS &Neos to start the healing prosess. Then in early 80s some 4000 GMs were rehabbed but they didnt last. SEPTA should be proud of todays fleet as it is modern now and well cared for. But the memories i have!!! i retired 2 weeks ago. Love it! thanks for letting me vent LOL, this is only scrating the surface of how bad it was! Ed
I am only 27, however, I do a great deal of reading & asking around as to how "SEPTA" was in those years, especially from the old timers @ Luzerne.

That was the "real SEPTA".

And that was for surface transit. In those years, go in the subway & you might not come back out.

In those years, at the end of the line, have you ever encountered "smartalley passengers" get on the streetcar & urinate(or deficate) in the rear of the vehicle?

I remember sometime in 1982 or so(I was like 1), I rode a streetcar with my mother(route 6). Around that time, the 6 remaining aricars(2571, 2612, 2636, 2647, 2653 & 2662),a handful of KC cars were still in revenue service, as well as the GOH cars. The heat was blaring, & the car smelled like hot piss.

Not to mention equipment shortages & robberies. My pop used to take the 6 car from 78th & Ogontz Avenue for several years alongside with the South Broad & Bridge Line cars to go to work @ Campbells soup. He told me stories as to how the streetcars would break down at night, with no replacement, the other car having to push the dead car back to Luzerne, & another car assigned to the line never made it out of the depot.

He also told me as to how people got on @ night & threatened the operator for money.

Finally, for a disabled car or vehicle, radios really weren't the "in thing" in those years. You got off the vehicle, walked to a payphone, called the code of defect in, praying to God that you would make it back to the vehicle alive & hope that ALL of the passengers were still alive.

God it must have been a nightmare driving those stickshifts without right side mirrors.

In those years, was it true that "Comly & Frankford" had the buses with air conditioners & everyone else got shafted?

That's why if I ever get hired for SEPTA, I will gladly work @ Callowhill or Allegheny. Those two depots, as of 12-8-08 @ 5:58pm, in terms of equipment, are a big improvement as opposed to 30 years ago.

I am a semi transit historian. Can you please elaborate some more.

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ED77KATR
Transit Fan
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CACrafter88bk2504
Dec 8 2008, 06:02 PM
ED77KATR
Dec 8 2008, 05:18 PM
When I first started at SEPTA in 1978 the fleet was a horrible mess. at any given time half of it was out of service. The buses were deathtraps!!! Leaking fuel, BALD tires,NO AC, no right side mirrows[i got pics posted here to prove it],no power steering, compartment doors &windows flapping open&swinging out and scraping parked cars. The reverse in most didnt work especially the 60s GM fishbowls. The 71-75 Flexibles ya had to rip open a panel and use a coin or screwdriver and jump a circut[no16] without getting shocked!!!try that in the rain LOL. Ya make a sharp right turn and the battery trays would fly out the side of the chassis[sometimes with ugly or humorous results].The frames were all broken and YES I had a engine fall out on 52nd st in early 1979. Now the brakes were another story, i got real religious everytime i hit the sobs. SLACK [code 83 over radio] was common. it was like driving a rickity cattle truck down the line. Also they were pig sties!! Roaches and YES RATS!! rode on them too.Never was graffitti wiped off, i remember as i drove down 52nd st kids just spray painted away in the back until the fumes were over bearing. The peak years of these disasterous times were 1978 -1982. It took the order of RTS &Neos to start the healing prosess. Then in early 80s some 4000 GMs were rehabbed but they didnt last. SEPTA should be proud of todays fleet as it is modern now and well cared for. But the memories i have!!! i retired 2 weeks ago. Love it! thanks for letting me vent LOL, this is only scrating the surface of how bad it was! Ed
I am only 27, however, I do a great deal of reading & asking around as to how "SEPTA" was in those years, especially from the old timers @ Luzerne.

That was the "real SEPTA".

And that was for surface transit. In those years, go in the subway & you might not come back out.

In those years, at the end of the line, have you ever encountered "smartalley passengers" get on the streetcar & urinate(or deficate) in the rear of the vehicle?

I remember sometime in 1982 or so(I was like 1), I rode a streetcar with my mother(route 6). Around that time, the 6 remaining aricars(2571, 2612, 2636, 2647, 2653 & 2662),a handful of KC cars were still in revenue service, as well as the GOH cars. The heat was blaring, & the car smelled like hot piss.

Not to mention equipment shortages & robberies. My pop used to take the 6 car from 78th & Ogontz Avenue for several years alongside with the South Broad & Bridge Line cars to go to work @ Campbells soup. He told me stories as to how the streetcars would break down at night, with no replacement, the other car having to push the dead car back to Luzerne, & another car assigned to the line never made it out of the depot.

He also told me as to how people got on @ night & threatened the operator for money.

Finally, for a disabled car or vehicle, radios really weren't the "in thing" in those years. You got off the vehicle, walked to a payphone, called the code of defect in, praying to God that you would make it back to the vehicle alive & hope that ALL of the passengers were still alive.

God it must have been a nightmare driving those stickshifts without right side mirrors.

In those years, was it true that "Comly & Frankford" had the buses with air conditioners & everyone else got shafted?

That's why if I ever get hired for SEPTA, I will gladly work @ Callowhill or Allegheny. Those two depots, as of 12-8-08 @ 5:58pm, in terms of equipment, are a big improvement as opposed to 30 years ago.

I am a semi transit historian. Can you please elaborate some more.

Comly & FRankford buses were the worst at that time. Callowhill had better Buses as they were used in center city. Green hornets[1955 GMCs] were still at Frankford and comly until 1983 or 84. The 3900series used at frankford&comly 1963 GM Fishbowls were stick shifts with bad clutches and no teeth left in gearboxes on some. The only Buses i remember in those years that had any AC were the 10 1975 6300 Flexible Buses that callowhill had for Special use. The public rarely saw them. i worked at callowhill as a driver from 1978-1980. then Frankford 1980-82. Then Comly for last 26 years. On any given day half the fleet was down. at Frankford we had a whole bay full of canniblized Buses[perhaps 40 of em] we called DEATH ROW. When i mentioed about jumping no16 circuit on a flexible that was to put it in gear. the electical shock on occasion was wakeup. I remember dripping sweat like i just ran a 26 mile marathon after driving a bus on a shift on a hot day. no AC power steering,shifting gears Geez!!!! i dont miss it, but the stories? I laugh my a.. off!!! Ed
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Neoei3318
Transit Historian
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Thought this was interesting. Grabbed this off of the Subchat forums posted by our RiverLINE3501 (mark?)

SEPTA used to have bus routes that had names instead of numbers.

The named routes were:

Airport Express - Center City to the Airport - began 1973, died 1985 when the R1 train began operation. SEPTA first premium-fare express bus.

Fort Washington Express [became route 4 in 1983, abandoned 1992]. The FWE was never mentioned in the route number. It simply said "EXP".

FOX [Frankford-Olney Express-became the 8 in 1985]

Mid-City Loop [became the 76 in 1985, reconstituted to the 76-Benfrankline, then abandoned in 2001]

Penns' Loop [born 1972, died 1978. Market and Walnut sts between 2nd and 22nd.]

Blvd. Limited [became the 1 in 1987].

SPREE - this abomination was birthed from the 76 in 2001, the route died mercifully in 2002.

LUCY - Loop thru University City - SEPTA runs this route for the University City District. It's official route number is 316, and it is used only in Public hearing filings and internally on the radio system.

ZOO LINK - This shuttle bus connected the Zoo with 30th St Station on Summer Weekends[it started last summer]. It was successful and will be revived next summer.

Cultural Loop SEPTA was the first system to institute a route connecting all of the City's historical and cultural sights in 1972. The NYCTA followed suit with the M41 and B88 "Culture Bus", and the CTA did so in the 70's as well. SEPTA's version was merged into the 76 in the 80's and expanded to run daily.

In the 1950's, before the mass consolidations by NCL, PTC ran out of letters to identify bus routes, so the instituted double letters on newer bus routes. Only 4 routes were named this way, and the first letter of the double letter route started with the letter "X". Except for the XB, these routes lasted into the 80's.

These routes are:

XA - Fern Rock to Huntington Valley [now part of the 28]

XB - Center City to Wynnfield Heights [merged into the 38 when the trolley was bustituted]

XH - Broad & Erie [Rush hours] or Germantown to West Oak Lane via Washington Lane [still operating in its current form except that it runs to Broad-Erie full time]. It was orginally called the H-1.

XO - Fern Rock to Melrose Park Gardens [now part of the 57].

----

Anyway, 2nd Street on the MFL was rehabilitated sometime around the bicentennial, and as late as 1978, because there is a sign for the "Penn Loop" in the Mezzanine.
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philabob1
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Some memories.

Penns Loop survived past '78. I think it went away in the mid-80's. I have photos of RTS's on the line. It was served by both Allegheny and Luzerne.

The York Road School Shuttle was another named route, very obscure, a survivor from the days of trolley service. It ran on Old York Road from Olney to Germantown/Tioga/Rising Sun, I believe. It showed up on Luzerne transfers as "YRS".

2nd St el station was among the last to get rehabbed (it and 11th St). There were still signs for "Ferries" to both until they were redone (the Ferries note was painted over but it could still be seen). I remember the red flag mounted on the column at 2nd St to be used if someone had to alert the train motorman to stop (if someone fell to the tracks, etc).

Interesting that Frankford and Comly were dumping grounds. Southern wasn't much better, but with a couple of 'downtown' routes, the fleet was kept in a little better shape. I rode the 5 very frequently during this time and it would get either a piece of crap from Frankford or the same from Southern. My favorite group growing up was the 2900's out of Frankford, which showed up frequently on 5, and it was sad to see them fall into disrepair.

After the Flx's started showing up, Frankford got a number of the 3000 and 3100 series with the single seat on one side. At that point they were decrepit. More than once I recall being on one that had a center door that either would not close or didn't have the interlock so the bus would move with the door open. Without right-side mirrors the ops couldn't always tell if someone had cleared the bus from the center door and they tended to get moving before everyone was off.

Every so often a 102" old look would end up on 5 and that was usually a disaster, especially with the narrow streets in South Phila. There would usually be a hang-up at Pine St and South St southbound where 2nd St splits around the market and someone would be parked too close to the corner - if you were on a 102" bus, forget it. Someone got smart and started assigning 35' buses to night runs to avoid this problem. Frankford had a good-size group so it could do this but Southern's was small by comparison and its runs still featured full-size buses.

My favorite Flx's were the 6300-04 group out of Frankford with the cushioned seats. 6301 turned up on 5 quite a bit and that was always a treat, even though it was tough to see the Hornets go away. I didn't care much for the 8-cylinder Flx's - too noisy and smelly. Once they took over the line the 6250-62 group was usually Frankford's contribution. Less often the 6145-61 group would be on 5.

From Southern's end the vast fleet of 700's usually held down its share of 5 and these seemed to be in better shape even up to the end. Southern got a group of 3000's late in the game but these were in awful shape and didn't get any better.

The Brill tracklesses were tanks and were great. They were kept in good shape (at least those at Southern, which I rode on 29 and 79). I only rode a Brill out of Frankford once and it didn't seem to be in as good a shape as those out of Southern. This started to change in the '73-'74 time frame when the fleet started to thin out and several of the Frankford contingent were moved to cover Southern runs. The only bad things about the Brills was the heat, which seemed to be on no matter what the weather, which is why you'll often see them in photos with all the windows wide open. 212 and 213 were two of my favorites, and 213 remained in the green/cream paint up until the end.
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CACrafter88bk2504
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ED77KATR
Dec 8 2008, 06:57 PM
[\ED77KATR,Dec 8 2008, 05:18 PM]When I first started at SEPTA in 1978 the fleet was a horrible mess. at any given time half of it was out of service. The buses were deathtraps!!! Leaking fuel, BALD tires,NO AC, no right side mirrows[i got pics posted here to prove it],no power steering, compartment doors &windows flapping open&swinging out and scraping parked cars. The reverse in most didnt work especially the 60s GM fishbowls. The 71-75 Flexibles ya had to rip open a panel and use a coin or screwdriver and jump a circut[no16] without getting shocked!!!try that in the rain LOL. Ya make a sharp right turn and the battery trays would fly out the side of the chassis[sometimes with ugly or humorous results].The frames were all broken and YES I had a engine fall out on 52nd st in early 1979. Now the brakes were another story, i got real religious everytime i hit the sobs. SLACK [code 83 over radio] was common. it was like driving a rickity cattle truck down the line. Also they were pig sties!! Roaches and YES RATS!! rode on them too.Never was graffitti wiped off, i remember as i drove down 52nd st kids just spray painted away in the back until the fumes were over bearing. The peak years of these disasterous times were 1978 -1982. It took the order of RTS &Neos to start the healing prosess. Then in early 80s some 4000 GMs were rehabbed but they didnt last. SEPTA should be proud of todays fleet as it is modern now and well cared for. But the memories i have!!! i retired 2 weeks ago. Love it! thanks for letting me vent LOL, this is only scrating the surface of how bad it was!

Comly & FRankford buses were the worst at that time. Callowhill had better Buses as they were used in center city. Green hornets[1955 GMCs] were still at Frankford and comly until 1983 or 84. The 3900series used at frankford&comly 1963 GM Fishbowls were stick shifts with bad clutches and no teeth left in gearboxes on some. The only Buses i remember in those years that had any AC were the 10 1975 6300 Flexible Buses that callowhill had for Special use. The public rarely saw them. i worked at callowhill as a driver from 1978-1980. then Frankford 1980-82. Then Comly for last 26 years. On any given day half the fleet was down. at Frankford we had a whole bay full of canniblized Buses[perhaps 40 of em] we called DEATH ROW. When i mentioed about jumping no16 circuit on a flexible that was to put it in gear. the electical shock on occasion was wakeup. I remember dripping sweat like i just ran a 26 mile marathon after driving a bus on a shift on a hot day. no AC power steering,shifting gears Geez!!!! i dont miss it, but the stories? I laugh my a.. off!!! Ed
Luzerne had their stuff with them as well. The infamous aircars, PCC all electrics, the Ex Toronto cars, & the Bicentennials.

@ Comly, those stickshifts were assigned to the B(14) on an as needed basis, right?

I can see them on the 20 or 59b(58) & that's all.
Edited by Van2006ko, Dec 12 2008, 09:09 AM.
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Neoei3318
Transit Historian
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Quote:
 
... Not to mention equipment shortages & robberies.


I heard stories from guys who used to live in the Richard Allen projects, and how they used to pull down the poles on the 23 at night in order to do some "collections".

When did the rehab for the Market-Frankford Subway stations start and end?
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