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INEPTA: Or, SEPTA: The Early Years - 1968 to 1985; Lets bring up some old memories...
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Topic Started: Dec 5 2008, 11:36 PM (9,512 Views)
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MichaelBug
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Sep 5 2012, 07:19 AM
Post #31
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Don't forget also in 1985 that the old Airport Express bus was replaced by the Airport Line train. And, on May 2, 1986, the current 91 began operating from Norristown to Graterford-though at first the routing ran in part along Germantown Pike between Penn Square and Collegeville, not along Ridge Pike as it does today.
When the Montgomery County Correctional Facility was opened around 1989-90, weekday service was added to the 91 & it was on that line sometime in late 1989 or early 1990 that I rode my last SEPTA Flxible. Yes, Frontier very briefly had a few of the ex-Red Arrow Flxes. I don't recall how long that the Flxes ran at Frontier, but it was only until the full complement of the 3450-3479 group of Neos arrived. SEPTA did not even bother to change the destination signs on the Flxes from those used at Victory-they just ran with windshield signs only or "Norristown" with a blank route number.
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delcofirecop
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Jul 3 2014, 01:06 PM
Post #32
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as a little kid i remember riding what i think was the d an then later called the 65 with my mom up lansdowne ave from west philly into 69th street we also rode the105 to 69th street from 76th and woodbine. the buses were gm fishbowls i believe and the early rts2's and neoplan a440's
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philabob1
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Jul 4 2014, 12:58 PM
Post #33
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- delcofirecop
- Jul 3 2014, 01:06 PM
as a little kid i remember riding what i think was the d an then later called the 65 with my mom up lansdowne ave from west philly into 69th street we also rode the105 to 69th street from 76th and woodbine. the buses were gm fishbowls i believe and the early rts2's and neoplan a440's The D is now the 21 (the 65 was the E).
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NeoplanDudeJosMuller
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Sep 28 2014, 10:32 PM
Post #34
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- ED77KATR
- Dec 8 2008, 06:57 PM
- CACrafter88bk2504
- Dec 8 2008, 06:02 PM
- ED77KATR
- Dec 8 2008, 05:18 PM
When I first started at SEPTA in 1978 the fleet was a horrible mess. at any given time half of it was out of service. The buses were deathtraps!!! Leaking fuel, BALD tires,NO AC, no right side mirrows[i got pics posted here to prove it],no power steering, compartment doors &windows flapping open&swinging out and scraping parked cars. The reverse in most didnt work especially the 60s GM fishbowls. The 71-75 Flexibles ya had to rip open a panel and use a coin or screwdriver and jump a circut[no16] without getting shocked!!!try that in the rain LOL. Ya make a sharp right turn and the battery trays would fly out the side of the chassis[sometimes with ugly or humorous results].The frames were all broken and YES I had a engine fall out on 52nd st in early 1979. Now the brakes were another story, i got real religious everytime i hit the sobs. SLACK [code 83 over radio] was common. it was like driving a rickity cattle truck down the line. Also they were pig sties!! Roaches and YES RATS!! rode on them too.Never was graffitti wiped off, i remember as i drove down 52nd st kids just spray painted away in the back until the fumes were over bearing. The peak years of these disasterous times were 1978 -1982. It took the order of RTS &Neos to start the healing prosess. Then in early 80s some 4000 GMs were rehabbed but they didnt last. SEPTA should be proud of todays fleet as it is modern now and well cared for. But the memories i have!!! i retired 2 weeks ago. Love it! thanks for letting me vent LOL, this is only scrating the surface of how bad it was! Ed
I am only 27, however, I do a great deal of reading & asking around as to how "SEPTA" was in those years, especially from the old timers @ Luzerne. That was the "real SEPTA". And that was for surface transit. In those years, go in the subway & you might not come back out. In those years, at the end of the line, have you ever encountered "smartalley passengers" get on the streetcar & urinate(or deficate) in the rear of the vehicle? I remember sometime in 1982 or so(I was like 1), I rode a streetcar with my mother(route 6). Around that time, the 6 remaining aricars(2571, 2612, 2636, 2647, 2653 & 2662),a handful of KC cars were still in revenue service, as well as the GOH cars. The heat was blaring, & the car smelled like hot piss. Not to mention equipment shortages & robberies. My pop used to take the 6 car from 78th & Ogontz Avenue for several years alongside with the South Broad & Bridge Line cars to go to work @ Campbells soup. He told me stories as to how the streetcars would break down at night, with no replacement, the other car having to push the dead car back to Luzerne, & another car assigned to the line never made it out of the depot. He also told me as to how people got on @ night & threatened the operator for money. Finally, for a disabled car or vehicle, radios really weren't the "in thing" in those years. You got off the vehicle, walked to a payphone, called the code of defect in, praying to God that you would make it back to the vehicle alive & hope that ALL of the passengers were still alive. God it must have been a nightmare driving those stickshifts without right side mirrors. In those years, was it true that "Comly & Frankford" had the buses with air conditioners & everyone else got shafted? That's why if I ever get hired for SEPTA, I will gladly work @ Callowhill or Allegheny. Those two depots, as of 12-8-08 @ 5:58pm, in terms of equipment, are a big improvement as opposed to 30 years ago. I am a semi transit historian. Can you please elaborate some more.
Comly & FRankford buses were the worst at that time. Callowhill had better Buses as they were used in center city. Green hornets[1955 GMCs] were still at Frankford and comly until 1983 or 84. The 3900series used at frankford&comly 1963 GM Fishbowls were stick shifts with bad clutches and no teeth left in gearboxes on some. The only Buses i remember in those years that had any AC were the 10 1975 6300 Flexible Buses that callowhill had for Special use. The public rarely saw them. i worked at callowhill as a driver from 1978-1980. then Frankford 1980-82. Then Comly for last 26 years. On any given day half the fleet was down. at Frankford we had a whole bay full of canniblized Buses[perhaps 40 of em] we called DEATH ROW. When i mentioed about jumping no16 circuit on a flexible that was to put it in gear. the electical shock on occasion was wakeup. I remember dripping sweat like i just ran a 26 mile marathon after driving a bus on a shift on a hot day. no AC power steering,shifting gears Geez!!!! i dont miss it, but the stories? I laugh my a.. off!!! Ed If they have no teeth, how do the input gears, move the outputs? The engine would just revv like crazy, and not move, unless you got lucky and backfired, and got pushed up one micrometer
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NeoplanDudeJosMuller
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Sep 29 2014, 12:57 PM
Post #35
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- NeoplanDudeJosMuller
- Sep 28 2014, 10:32 PM
- ED77KATR
- Dec 8 2008, 06:57 PM
- CACrafter88bk2504
- Dec 8 2008, 06:02 PM
- ED77KATR
- Dec 8 2008, 05:18 PM
When I first started at SEPTA in 1978 the fleet was a horrible mess. at any given time half of it was out of service. The buses were deathtraps!!! Leaking fuel, BALD tires,NO AC, no right side mirrows[i got pics posted here to prove it],no power steering, compartment doors &windows flapping open&swinging out and scraping parked cars. The reverse in most didnt work especially the 60s GM fishbowls. The 71-75 Flexibles ya had to rip open a panel and use a coin or screwdriver and jump a circut[no16] without getting shocked!!!try that in the rain LOL. Ya make a sharp right turn and the battery trays would fly out the side of the chassis[sometimes with ugly or humorous results].The frames were all broken and YES I had a engine fall out on 52nd st in early 1979. Now the brakes were another story, i got real religious everytime i hit the sobs. SLACK [code 83 over radio] was common. it was like driving a rickity cattle truck down the line. Also they were pig sties!! Roaches and YES RATS!! rode on them too.Never was graffitti wiped off, i remember as i drove down 52nd st kids just spray painted away in the back until the fumes were over bearing. The peak years of these disasterous times were 1978 -1982. It took the order of RTS &Neos to start the healing prosess. Then in early 80s some 4000 GMs were rehabbed but they didnt last. SEPTA should be proud of todays fleet as it is modern now and well cared for. But the memories i have!!! i retired 2 weeks ago. Love it! thanks for letting me vent LOL, this is only scrating the surface of how bad it was! Ed
I am only 27, however, I do a great deal of reading & asking around as to how "SEPTA" was in those years, especially from the old timers @ Luzerne. That was the "real SEPTA". And that was for surface transit. In those years, go in the subway & you might not come back out. In those years, at the end of the line, have you ever encountered "smartalley passengers" get on the streetcar & urinate(or deficate) in the rear of the vehicle? I remember sometime in 1982 or so(I was like 1), I rode a streetcar with my mother(route 6). Around that time, the 6 remaining aricars(2571, 2612, 2636, 2647, 2653 & 2662),a handful of KC cars were still in revenue service, as well as the GOH cars. The heat was blaring, & the car smelled like hot piss. Not to mention equipment shortages & robberies. My pop used to take the 6 car from 78th & Ogontz Avenue for several years alongside with the South Broad & Bridge Line cars to go to work @ Campbells soup. He told me stories as to how the streetcars would break down at night, with no replacement, the other car having to push the dead car back to Luzerne, & another car assigned to the line never made it out of the depot. He also told me as to how people got on @ night & threatened the operator for money. Finally, for a disabled car or vehicle, radios really weren't the "in thing" in those years. You got off the vehicle, walked to a payphone, called the code of defect in, praying to God that you would make it back to the vehicle alive & hope that ALL of the passengers were still alive. God it must have been a nightmare driving those stickshifts without right side mirrors. In those years, was it true that "Comly & Frankford" had the buses with air conditioners & everyone else got shafted? That's why if I ever get hired for SEPTA, I will gladly work @ Callowhill or Allegheny. Those two depots, as of 12-8-08 @ 5:58pm, in terms of equipment, are a big improvement as opposed to 30 years ago. I am a semi transit historian. Can you please elaborate some more.
Comly & FRankford buses were the worst at that time. Callowhill had better Buses as they were used in center city. Green hornets[1955 GMCs] were still at Frankford and comly until 1983 or 84. The 3900series used at frankford&comly 1963 GM Fishbowls were stick shifts with bad clutches and no teeth left in gearboxes on some. The only Buses i remember in those years that had any AC were the 10 1975 6300 Flexible Buses that callowhill had for Special use. The public rarely saw them. i worked at callowhill as a driver from 1978-1980. then Frankford 1980-82. Then Comly for last 26 years. On any given day half the fleet was down. at Frankford we had a whole bay full of canniblized Buses[perhaps 40 of em] we called DEATH ROW. When i mentioed about jumping no16 circuit on a flexible that was to put it in gear. the electical shock on occasion was wakeup. I remember dripping sweat like i just ran a 26 mile marathon after driving a bus on a shift on a hot day. no AC power steering,shifting gears Geez!!!! i dont miss it, but the stories? I laugh my a.. off!!! Ed
If they have no teeth, how do the input gears, move the outputs? The engine would just revv like crazy, and not move, unless you got lucky and backfired, and got pushed up one micrometer Sounds Like most of those buses were cheaper than our school buses. No power steering, No A/C, Still Stickshifts! Was our city transit division CTD that poor, so that we couldn't even overhaul them, or at least upgrade them to automatics? That would've been nice to ride on, As I have heard from others, they rarely had suspension on their wheels, my grandma and dad say that they used to get sick all the time riding the bus! SEPTA really changed the transportation systems in our area, if it weren't for them, we would still have those 1974 Flxibles.
On another note, my grandmother said that while riding on the route 6 trolley, in the early 1950's, one of the wheels almost fell off. And again in 1979 while riding a GMC bus, the wheels were so rickety, she thought that it would fall off. Well she was wrong, apparently the transmission almost fell out
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MichaelBug
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Sep 29 2014, 06:27 PM
Post #36
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- NeoplanDudeJosMuller
- Sep 29 2014, 12:57 PM
- NeoplanDudeJosMuller
- Sep 28 2014, 10:32 PM
- ED77KATR
- Dec 8 2008, 06:57 PM
- CACrafter88bk2504
- Dec 8 2008, 06:02 PM
- ED77KATR
- Dec 8 2008, 05:18 PM
When I first started at SEPTA in 1978 the fleet was a horrible mess. at any given time half of it was out of service. The buses were deathtraps!!! Leaking fuel, BALD tires,NO AC, no right side mirrows[i got pics posted here to prove it],no power steering, compartment doors &windows flapping open&swinging out and scraping parked cars. The reverse in most didnt work especially the 60s GM fishbowls. The 71-75 Flexibles ya had to rip open a panel and use a coin or screwdriver and jump a circut[no16] without getting shocked!!!try that in the rain LOL. Ya make a sharp right turn and the battery trays would fly out the side of the chassis[sometimes with ugly or humorous results].The frames were all broken and YES I had a engine fall out on 52nd st in early 1979. Now the brakes were another story, i got real religious everytime i hit the sobs. SLACK [code 83 over radio] was common. it was like driving a rickity cattle truck down the line. Also they were pig sties!! Roaches and YES RATS!! rode on them too.Never was graffitti wiped off, i remember as i drove down 52nd st kids just spray painted away in the back until the fumes were over bearing. The peak years of these disasterous times were 1978 -1982. It took the order of RTS &Neos to start the healing prosess. Then in early 80s some 4000 GMs were rehabbed but they didnt last. SEPTA should be proud of todays fleet as it is modern now and well cared for. But the memories i have!!! i retired 2 weeks ago. Love it! thanks for letting me vent LOL, this is only scrating the surface of how bad it was! Ed
I am only 27, however, I do a great deal of reading & asking around as to how "SEPTA" was in those years, especially from the old timers @ Luzerne. That was the "real SEPTA". And that was for surface transit. In those years, go in the subway & you might not come back out. In those years, at the end of the line, have you ever encountered "smartalley passengers" get on the streetcar & urinate(or deficate) in the rear of the vehicle? I remember sometime in 1982 or so(I was like 1), I rode a streetcar with my mother(route 6). Around that time, the 6 remaining aricars(2571, 2612, 2636, 2647, 2653 & 2662),a handful of KC cars were still in revenue service, as well as the GOH cars. The heat was blaring, & the car smelled like hot piss. Not to mention equipment shortages & robberies. My pop used to take the 6 car from 78th & Ogontz Avenue for several years alongside with the South Broad & Bridge Line cars to go to work @ Campbells soup. He told me stories as to how the streetcars would break down at night, with no replacement, the other car having to push the dead car back to Luzerne, & another car assigned to the line never made it out of the depot. He also told me as to how people got on @ night & threatened the operator for money. Finally, for a disabled car or vehicle, radios really weren't the "in thing" in those years. You got off the vehicle, walked to a payphone, called the code of defect in, praying to God that you would make it back to the vehicle alive & hope that ALL of the passengers were still alive. God it must have been a nightmare driving those stickshifts without right side mirrors. In those years, was it true that "Comly & Frankford" had the buses with air conditioners & everyone else got shafted? That's why if I ever get hired for SEPTA, I will gladly work @ Callowhill or Allegheny. Those two depots, as of 12-8-08 @ 5:58pm, in terms of equipment, are a big improvement as opposed to 30 years ago. I am a semi transit historian. Can you please elaborate some more.
Comly & FRankford buses were the worst at that time. Callowhill had better Buses as they were used in center city. Green hornets[1955 GMCs] were still at Frankford and comly until 1983 or 84. The 3900series used at frankford&comly 1963 GM Fishbowls were stick shifts with bad clutches and no teeth left in gearboxes on some. The only Buses i remember in those years that had any AC were the 10 1975 6300 Flexible Buses that callowhill had for Special use. The public rarely saw them. i worked at callowhill as a driver from 1978-1980. then Frankford 1980-82. Then Comly for last 26 years. On any given day half the fleet was down. at Frankford we had a whole bay full of canniblized Buses[perhaps 40 of em] we called DEATH ROW. When i mentioed about jumping no16 circuit on a flexible that was to put it in gear. the electical shock on occasion was wakeup. I remember dripping sweat like i just ran a 26 mile marathon after driving a bus on a shift on a hot day. no AC power steering,shifting gears Geez!!!! i dont miss it, but the stories? I laugh my a.. off!!! Ed
If they have no teeth, how do the input gears, move the outputs? The engine would just revv like crazy, and not move, unless you got lucky and backfired, and got pushed up one micrometer
Sounds Like most of those buses were cheaper than our school buses. No power steering, No A/C, Still Stickshifts! Was our city transit division CTD that poor, so that we couldn't even overhaul them, or at least upgrade them to automatics? That would've been nice to ride on, As I have heard from others, they rarely had suspension on their wheels, my grandma and dad say that they used to get sick all the time riding the bus! SEPTA really changed the transportation systems in our area, if it weren't for them, we would still have those 1974 Flxibles. On another note, my grandmother said that while riding on the route 6 trolley, in the early 1950's, one of the wheels almost fell off. And again in 1979 while riding a GMC bus, the wheels were so rickety, she thought that it would fall off. Well she was wrong, apparently the transmission almost fell out To be fair, almost NO transit buses built in the 1950's had A/C (many did not have power steering either). Air conditioning was considered a luxury on transit buses well into the 70's. The 3900's mentioned did have stick shifts, but they were the exception even then.
When I was growing up in the 70's & early 80's, nearly every school bus I ever rode was a stick shift. gas engine International chassis with no A/C-regardless of whether the body was Blue Bird, Thomas, Carpenter, Superior, or Wayne. Nowadays they are all diesel powered with automatics.
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NeoplanDudeJosMuller
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Sep 29 2014, 08:01 PM
Post #37
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Our school district, Rose Tree Media School District Still Has Buses From 1997, They Replaced The Earlier blue Bird School Buses From 1977, They were are first automatics. But when I grew up in the Holmesburg Junction, In the Early 2000's, when going to kindergarten, none of the vehicles had stick shifts. So I guess I am used to automatics. Also, We still don't have A/C in our buses, though we have like 10 fans, so Its just as good. With SEPTA we didn't need A/C, we could've had fans, but then there was the problem of vandalism, and the fact that any bump could knock it down from the roof, hitting a passenger. The power steering, I cant understand, Its a tube of air that goes from the Tie-Rod to the Steering Wheel so that you don't have to pull so hard when turning. And They have a belt in cars, im not sure about buses, as they don't use hydraulics, and they have air, in most cases. We really did get some of the cheapest buses though right? You would think that buses that were so bad wouldn't last for 25 years! What even replaced these buses? Nothing was purchased in 1993, how did we manage to retire those one or two hundred buses. Were they that unimportant, that a shortage of 200 was normal?
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MichaelBug
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Sep 30 2014, 10:47 AM
Post #38
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- NeoplanDudeJosMuller
- Sep 29 2014, 08:01 PM
Our school district, Rose Tree Media School District Still Has Buses From 1997, They Replaced The Earlier blue Bird School Buses From 1977, They were are first automatics. But when I grew up in the Holmesburg Junction, In the Early 2000's, when going to kindergarten, none of the vehicles had stick shifts. So I guess I am used to automatics. Also, We still don't have A/C in our buses, though we have like 10 fans, so Its just as good. With SEPTA we didn't need A/C, we could've had fans, but then there was the problem of vandalism, and the fact that any bump could knock it down from the roof, hitting a passenger. The power steering, I cant understand, Its a tube of air that goes from the Tie-Rod to the Steering Wheel so that you don't have to pull so hard when turning. And They have a belt in cars, im not sure about buses, as they don't use hydraulics, and they have air, in most cases. We really did get some of the cheapest buses though right? You would think that buses that were so bad wouldn't last for 25 years! What even replaced these buses? Nothing was purchased in 1993, how did we manage to retire those one or two hundred buses. Were they that unimportant, that a shortage of 200 was normal? My recollection is that in many cars (& buses too), the power steering is actually hydraulic with its own fluid (not air). You are correct that its purpose is to reduce steering effort.
Many passenger cars back in the 1950's (& a few small cars still did not, even into the 80's) still did not have power steering.
(As for power brakes, I own a 1972 AMC Matador that does NOT have them. (Look it up on Wikipedia). It's a big car. Most larger cars did have power brakes even then, but NOT all of them did! You really have to stomp HARD on the petal to stop the car.)
WIthout going into a ton of detail, basically, the 298 RTSes replaced all the remaining Old Looks in 1980, at once. The 1,092 Neoplans gradually replaced first the 1963-1970 GM Fishbowls & then the 1971-1976 Flxibles over the following years:
1982 to 1985 - 150 buses each year 1986 - 132 buses 1987/88 - 240 buses (the #3133-#3251 & #3252-#3371 batches were delivered several months apart.) 1989 - 120 buses
The 50 1984 Volvo artics did not directly replace anything else in the fleet. From 1990 to 1996, SEPTA did not buy any new buses. Then, in 1996-97, the 400 Ikaruses/NABIs (all delivered within 1 year) replaced first all the RTSes, then the oldest 1982 Neoplans.
The 80 2000-01 Eldorados replaced the 25 35-foot 1984 Neoplans, & expanded SEPTAs small bus fleet. The 155 2000 Neoplan Artics replaced both the Volvo artics & also 100 or so of the Neoplans. All the remaining Neoplans were replaced over the years 2001-2008 by New Flyers.
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NeoplanDudeJosMuller
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Oct 1 2014, 04:26 PM
Post #39
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I thought the DK's didn't arrive until early 1987. Its weird how virtually no buses had 4HP-590 Ecomats Until 1987, And Nobody used it after 1994.
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nabi5155
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Oct 1 2014, 06:32 PM
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I remember seeing those neoplan dk's on the streets and scrap yard. It took sometime for those dk's to be taking to the crusher. I remember seeing them every day at the scrap yard for about two years. The sign in the back never worked. In fact the dk's was the only septa neoplans I never rode. WOW times have change from the neoplan era I got to say I will forget how those neoplans dominated the streets of Philadelphia
Edited by nabi5155, Oct 1 2014, 06:37 PM.
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