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| Sam's Lack of ... Anything; And Yet He Shines! | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 24 2008, 08:48 AM (1,152 Views) | |
| tammitam | Jun 24 2008, 08:48 AM Post #1 |
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Out of the Fire and Back in the Frying Pan
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Expounding a little on the Sam chemistry thing ... I have to ponder something ... Why is Bobby so aloof with Sam? I mean, on screen, in the scenes they have had, there had been a connection, though I tend to think Jared could have chemistry with a slug all because he just shines. But while there is a connection, there is also this ... barrier. Like Bobby holds Sam at arms length. It's not that I think he doesn't care. I do think he cares, after all, he knows Sam (possessed) killed Steve Wandell, and warned them without coming out and saying anything. But still ... does Bobby know something? I mean, I didn't get this impression so much in S1, or even early S2 in IMToD. But now ... it's almost like Bobby is ... watching, waiting. But damn. If the boys grew up around him, don't you think Bobby would ... want to protect Sam rather than wait and see if he went evil? I just don't get it. Sam is one of the most compassionate people I've ever seen ... and the only one on his side, that connects with him besides Dean ... is a demon. Is Kripke that blind? Is he that ignorant? And to go further, I'll reiterate on what SammyCat said ... Jared has done a phenomenal job portraying a character that he can't possibly have a grasp on, not for his own lack of understanding, but because they keep changing Sam's place ... they keep altering and shadowing Sam's SL ... all to shove down our throats (repeatedly! Damn it Kripke, I am choking on it already!) how worthless poor pitiful Dean feels, and god, give the boy a hug and a cookie for John making him grow up so fast. Screw the fact that Sam felt worthless, that Sam felt that he never measured up, that Sam feels so damn guilty for Dean's deal, that Sam died and screw showing us how he felt, because damn, we need to show more of Dean's fear, and him hiding that fear. Let's brush Sam under the rug some more! Ok, so I went on a tangent, but it is frustrating that the writer's, no that Kripke feels that we need to see over and over and over and over how worthless poor Dean feels, and that Sam is ... well ... nothing. But regardless, Jared has done an awesome job at portraying a character that they keep sweeping under the rug. And despite the fact that all of the side stories have to do with Dean ... Sam has had some chemistry with those characters ... even if they were meant for Dean. My question though is ... why? Why is Sam swept away. Oh Kripke if you can answer this without sounding like you pussied out, then I'd be proud of you. But I don't think you can, because I think you did just that, and that's sad for you to alter your dream ... because a few bitches do just that ... and bitch. |
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| markie | Jun 24 2008, 09:26 AM Post #2 |
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Who You Gonna Call?
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Good question , no answer , its one of those engimas like why is there always a tea spoon at the bottom of the washing up bowl ? or why does toast fall butter side up or why is Paris Hilton famous? |
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| tammitam | Jun 24 2008, 09:38 AM Post #3 |
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Out of the Fire and Back in the Frying Pan
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then ... :lol:
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| tammitam | Jun 24 2008, 05:19 PM Post #4 |
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Out of the Fire and Back in the Frying Pan
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I'm sorry, the sarcasm in this just cracked me up! Anyway ... back to the point (did I have one? I tangeted a lot!) why is Bobby like that to Sam? I mean, I agree with Eric when he says he is closer to Dean, but, I don't with the KFC thing but only because he was trying to address who was alive. He did, after all, chase after Sam with Dean. But it's almost like Bobby has his invisible shield up when it comes to Sam. Ellen didn't. She seemed to adore Sam, but, well, she's gone. Now the only one that Sam has left that seems to connect with him besides Dean (who, at this moment, is dead) is Ruby. That's sad for a guy who they portrayed as being more social of the Winchesters. |
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| Mags | Jun 24 2008, 05:43 PM Post #5 |
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Who You Gonna Call?
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Hmmm can i add what will probably be an unpopular opinion here? To be honest i havent actually read all of this thread,i skimmed (my brain isnt capable of any function higher than that at the mo ) .... and im kinda conflicted....Cause i can see where you guys are comming from,but also i can see what happned,if ya know what i mean... Season three for me was shaping up to be one hell of a season for Sams character,and i was so happy with it,we were getting so much from Sam i was almost overdosing... but then that stupid strike happened.... and this is where i chose to look at it as a glass half full so bear with me... The last four episodes of Season 3 were to me a dissappointment and i was sad that Sams sl was sidelined in favour of anything else ,but looking back im kinda glad,cause those last three episodes especially just felt so rushed,they were rushing Deans deal,they rushed the sl for Deans deal,and decided to bring Sams forward to season 4,where they can spend some time on it and develop it at the right pace.Its just it seems to me,it would have been a lot worse if they had put Deans deal off to s4 and rushed Sams out to fit three episodes,id rather be taking the time and watching it unfold slowely... So now i see the interviews with Jared and he seems so excited and is dropping hints as to where he wants Sam to go ,which leads me to believe he knows more than he says.... so for the moment im happy to sit back and let the season 4 unfold and see where it takes Sam and us.. Im sorry if what ive said is totally off the track of what ye were discussing and im sorry if ive upset anyone... but the new spoilerfree me is incredibly excited for season 4, cause if Jareds excited then hell i am too! P.S. Tammi i told you i would get here!!! |
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| Mags | Jun 24 2008, 06:05 PM Post #6 |
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Who You Gonna Call?
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Im not too worried about the lack of mention of Sams demon blood , but i do think it would have cme up if the strike hadnt happened and its one of those subjects that im glad wasnt rushed out now looking back..... The 12 episodes in the run up to the strike i was incredibly happy with,i loved how we saw Sams character slipping slowely away from everything he had believed in in season 1 and 2 and becomming harder and more desperate as time went on... Looking back now on those three episodes im glad that they rushed nothing of Sams... they obviously mean something for them to hold them off for this season..... like i said,glass half full
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| tammitam | Jun 24 2008, 06:15 PM Post #7 |
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Out of the Fire and Back in the Frying Pan
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I hope that Season 4 pans out, I really do. I just so tired of not getting anything, and I'm so tired of Sam being shoved aside like he doesn't matter. Mags, I'm so glad you made it!! |
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| Mags | Jun 24 2008, 07:33 PM Post #8 |
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Who You Gonna Call?
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I think Sam matters a whole lot more than we think,and i think this is the reason they are being so careful with his sl.... they dont want to rush anything with him... |
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| Jonijess | Jun 24 2008, 08:02 PM Post #9 |
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You Smell Like a Toilet
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Mags, I kind of agree with you and I kind of don't, which is the position I end up in a lot on the boards. There's no question that the strike truncated Sam's storyline in Season Three, Kripke himself talked about this, and so did Cathryn Humphries in a recent interview. There was nothing to be done about it, Dean's Deal needed to be resolved and I'm glad they did, I would have really disliked to see that particular storyline carry on through Season Four. There is also no question in my mind that Season Three did a much, much better job at beginning to explore Sam, especially compared to how opaque he was in Season Two. Fresh Blood, A Very Supernatural Christmas, and especially Mystery Spot were all great episodes for insight into Sam. We're not even close to understanding him as well as we understand Dean but it was at least a start. I was so encouraged up until the strike because I thought they were finally going to get into Sam's head and then, well, we know what happened. I also agree that I wouldn't have wanted them to try to squeeze both Sam's development and the resolution to Dean's Deal in just three episodes. It wouldn't have worked, it would have been a disjointed mess doing justice to neither character. Still, it bugs a bit. For me anyway. Especially after Season Two when Kripke himself admitted they shortchanged Sam's storyline after John's death. Then in Season Three I still don't know why they had to spend so much time on Dean realizing that he wanted to live and keep going over and over and over his self-esteem issues which IMO have been done to death, and if they did I wish they could have explained better why it mattered so much to Sam for him to make that realization. Sam literally couldn't go off to save Dean if Dean wasn't on board because that would have meant physically leaving his brother, something he wasn't willing to do. So he was trapped, trapped because he was desperate to try to save Dean but just as desperate to spend every second with him because he was going to lose him and he couldn't have both. I was also a little bummed that this huge revelation in the S2 finale, the demon blood and the Mary secret were hardly referenced at all in the 12 episodes before the break. The Mary secret was referred to in the second episode, the demon blood not at all. I'm guessing (hoping) they intended to go back to that in the second half of the season, but why is it necessary to move Sam's storyline to the back half of the season all the time? Why can't it start in the beginning of the season and thread through the entire year? They did that in Season Two as well and it was equally disappointing. Anyway, I'm torn. Parts of Season Three I absolutely loved and parts I was dissatisfied with. I'm staying spoilerfree for Season Four so I really don't know what's coming with that. After having Sam's storyline not given much attention in Season Two (in the first half because Dean's grief was more important than Sam's and in the second half because Kripke tired of the Pyschic Kids and decided to make some changes whatever they were) and then curtailed in Season Three (because of the strike) I'm a little wary of what might happen to Sam's story this year. I'm hoping history doesn't repeat itself, but I'm tired of getting my hopes up too high. As I mentioned in another post, I feel like Charlie Brown running up to kick Lucy's football. I want to believe it'll be there for me to kick but in the past I've ended up flat on my back and I'm worried it's going to happen again. Still love the show and Sam and Dean and all my SPN friends, I'm just...cautious and wary of getting my expectations too high.
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| sammycat | Jun 25 2008, 01:35 AM Post #10 |
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I Full-On Swayze'd That Mother
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It seems sad that almost all Sam fans online feel so burned that they have go into a new season with low expectations but high hopes. Its a widespread feeling, somewhere between dread and - not dread, lol. Kripke needs to write both brothers a story that works from the beginning of the season to the middle and to the end. And if the season finale and cliffhanger are about Dean this season, again, my head will pretty much explode, and that won't be pretty. On the Bobby issue: John is Dean's Daddy and now Bobby is Dean's subDaddy. Sam doesn't get a Daddy anymore, so it shouldn't matter if he gets a subDaddy, either. I believe this is probably Kripke's thinking here. |
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| daisy | Jun 25 2008, 05:35 AM Post #11 |
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I'm Not Pathetic, Like You
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I do think that Bobby cares a lot for Sam, I love how he often calls him 'kid' but I do think that this care is tempered by suspicion and probably wariness. I have always thought that Bobby has known about Sam for a very long time. In my mind, that is the reason why Bobby and John fell out. But I think the slight distance between also comes from Sam's side. Unlike Dean he was never looking for a father substitute because Dean had always been more of a father to him. I'm interested to see how Sam and Bobby's relationship will be like at the start of S4 now Sam is without his 'father'. Also, Sam never had a close relationship with his dad, it would seem that he has no real experience of forging close relationships with older males so maybe he finds it hard to connect with Bobby on a deep, close level. He bonded immediately with Ellen, having not had a difficult maternal relationship to warp his relating to older women. And off on tangent..I adored his relationship with Ellen, I wish Ellen would come back, Sam needs her. I also think Sam probably senses Bobby's wariness of him, he's obviously aware that Bobby knows he was once dead so maybe he thinks Bobby thinks he's now 'wrong' and as we know Sam hates being looked at as a freak. But also, I think the writers keeping Sam away from everyone is a plot device...they need the boy isolated to keep him vulnerable and susceptible to bad influences. Oh dear...I've rambled on now. Sorry, not making much sense. As for everything else I agree with mags, I think Sam and his fans were set to have fabulous second half of S3 but then the strike happened. I would have liked to have seen the demon blood mentioned (and Mary mentioned again) but I think that was all set to come to the surface after JIB when Dean found out that Sam had been lying to him and was clearly aware that Sam was hiding more than just about Lilith. And it will hopefully all play out next season now. But, yeah, I'm excited for S4 but trying not to be in case I'm disappointed again. |
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| markie | Jun 25 2008, 06:03 AM Post #12 |
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Who You Gonna Call?
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If the isolation of Sam is a plot device? . I do agree it could be then it,s not coming across well ,to me all this as done Sam more harm than good. Sam at this time where we are in the show? should be reaching his full potential as a character, instead in many ways his not gone past season 1 Dean as so overshadowed to a point of detriment to Sam . He is up against a character he is supposed to be equal too and clearly is not.. |
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| Jonijess | Jun 25 2008, 10:20 AM Post #13 |
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You Smell Like a Toilet
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Just checking, this is going to be a spoilerfree thread, correct? If not, that's okay, I'll stay out, but I am trying my best to avoid spoilers. Daisy, interesting point that the distance between Sam and Bobby might come from Sam's side. I really think it might be from both of them and for a lot of the reasons you mentioned. Sam doesn't seem to be drawn to older men or father figures possibly partly because of his difficult relationship with John and his hero worship of Dean. Bobby, for his part, might not connect with Sam as much because he might have sensed that he could never take Dean's place in Sam's heart combined with some sort of trepidation he might have about exactly what Sam is. I rather hope that they don't really have a lot of Sam and Bobby bonding in the premiere. As I said earlier I don't know that it would ring true and I don't know if Sam would be willing to accept much from Bobby. He should be (don't know if he will be), but he should be in a world of pain. Take what Dean went through in S2 and magnify it because not only is Sam coping with the fact that Dean's burning in Hell for him, but he's coping with the fact that he promised to save him and failed and he's coping alone. Dean at least had Sam there and wasn't living with a pledge he didn't live up to. I don't know that we'll see Sam as broken as I think we should but he should be completely lost and I highly doubt that Bobby would be enough for him. Bobby wasn't enough for Dean's despair and for the reasons I just articulated Sam's could arguably be even worse. If you're right Daisy and the writers are keeping Sam isolated as a plot device I think that's a rather poor way of exploring a character. They could find ways to give us insight into what he's thinking even if it comes from antagonists. Look at all the psychoanalysis given to Dean by demons and even Ruby's words regarding Sam in the finale. For some reason we are quite often put in the position of looking at Sam from someone else's POV (usually Dean's) and wondering what's going on with him rather than seeing things from Sam's POV and really understanding what he's thinking. Not all the time, mind you, but more often than not. It's resulted in what I think is rather lopsided characterization. Oh well, low expectations work well for me.
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| Mags | Jun 25 2008, 07:00 PM Post #14 |
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Who You Gonna Call?
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I agree Jonijess,im trying to stay spoilerfree now also.... I do think that Sam is meant to be a mystery,Dean is the open book and we know what he wants and how he feels.... Sam is such a damn mystery annd i think i really like that about him,it frustrates me cause i want to know more and more....i think that if Sam does slip into the dark side,then we will see more behind the mask that is Sam as he slides.... Im sooo looking forward to s4..... |
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| megpeach | Jul 18 2008, 02:08 AM Post #15 |
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You Smell Like a Toilet
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I have to admit, I was expecting a bit more of Sam's previous storylines to play into this past season's finale - especially with the little bit of information Ruby dropped. If there's anything that actually could send him 'to the dark side', as it were, it would definitely be an attempt to rescue Dean. Winchesters are good at sacrificing themselves for each other, especially the brothers. Really, though, that relationship is not explored enough from Sam's perspective. Speaking as a younger sibling, I have been distressed to see that they've never fully acknowledged that younger siblings have an equal urge to protect. Plus, all the feelings of inadequacy that must constantly come from being in Dean's shadow, not measuring up to John's expectations, and the distance that is obvious between him and Bobby. He is constantly lacking in attention and affection, and the writers seem to have fallen into the same trap as everyone else. Dean's angst has always been understandable, but there are two of them. Sam has had a rough time, too. They're both pretty broken. Hopefully we won't get gypped this upcoming season in terms of character exploration. It's a character driven show, and there's only two of them. Sam's got to have a chance soon. |
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then ... :lol:


3:46 AM Jul 11