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| Sam's Lack of ... Anything; And Yet He Shines! | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 24 2008, 08:48 AM (1,155 Views) | |
| MegTDJ | Jul 18 2008, 03:02 AM Post #16 |
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That's Funny. And For You, So Bitchy
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I totally agree with Mags as far as Sam's storyline goes... I think season 4 is going to be awesome for Sam, and I would rather have that than have them rush to fit it into season 3. As for Dean's angst being shoved down our throats, I think that's because that's basically all Dean has in terms of a storyline. In order for him to get some meaty material and for his fans to feel like he's just as front-and-centre as Sam, they have to play up on the angst angle for him. Sam gets all the major plot points, when you really sit and analyze it, so I don't begrudge Dean his daddy issues and his angst. We wouldn't see much of him without it. ![]() And as for Bobby... I've never noticed that there's any kind of distance between him and Sam. They've had some lovely scenes together - the junkyard scene in IMTOD springs immediately to mind, when Bobby said so sweetly that he'd tow the Impala back to his place even though he didn't feel it was worth it. He could see that it meant a lot to Sam, and that was enough for him. He smiled brightly when Sam appeared at his door in BUABS, and Sam greeted him warmly when he arrived at the motel in Tall Tales. The next time we saw him, he was just as concerned about Sam as Dean was in AHBL. Then in season 3, the phone conversation he and Sam had in Magnificent Seven was lovely, especially the way he said, "Kid, I wish I knew." Melts my heart every time! I got the impression in that ep that the two of them had been conspiring all week to save Dean while Dean was off living life to the fullest. I also got the impression in later eps that they kept on conspiring that whole year, calling each other whenever Dean wasn't around and just generally keeping in touch. They exchanged some playful banter in Sin City, and at the end of the ep Bobby reassured Dean that nothing was wrong with Sam even though you could see that part of him knew something was up. He was trying to convince himself that Sam was okay as much as he was trying to convince Dean, because he was just as unwilling to believe Sam could go evil as Dean was. Later in Dream a Little Dream Of Me there was the scene at the end when Bobby gently asked Sam if it might have been his psychic abilities that had allowed him to kill Jeremy, and I saw nothing but fatherly concern in the question. And I know it wasn't really Bobby, but the hug in Mystery Spot said a lot to me - Sam still thought at the time that it was the real Bobby (his suspicion didn't seem to come until later), so obviously it's something Bobby would have done. Plus he sounded very concerned in all of his phone messages to Sam in that ep, and that WAS the real Bobby. All that to say, I really don't see that there's any distance between them. Dean and Bobby are just more kindred spirits than Sam and Bobby are, so it's perfectly natural that they'd be closer. Sam's been very one-track-minded in season 3, though, and I think his relationships with everyone suffered because of it. Even his relationship with Dean seemed to suffer for it. He was holding everyone at arm's length, but Bobby was still there for him every time. Bobby does seem to know that something weird is going on with Sam, but dangit, Sam is one of his kids and he'll be darned if he lets anything happen to him. ![]() That's just the way I see it.
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| Mags | Jul 18 2008, 12:05 PM Post #17 |
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Who You Gonna Call?
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Meg..... Tammi has her wonder twin in Lena... and im thinking you may be my twin when it comes to how we feel about Sams storyline.... I agree with everything you said 100%,well except for the last bit where you said he was holding Dean at arms length,i think he was reaching out to him,he just wanted his brother back... but other wise definately love every word you said!Plus... you said it soooo much better......
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| sammycat | Jul 18 2008, 01:01 PM Post #18 |
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I Full-On Swayze'd That Mother
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I guess my thought on DALDOMS is that they played up Dean and Bobby so much in that episode, but they've never done that for Sam and Bobby. They've had little scenes together, but they have been about saving Dean, mostly. However, I do think Bobby loves both boys. My concern on plot and character is that for Dean, character is plot, and in that regard, he is better plotted out per season than Sam is. While for Sam, sometimes the plot is connected to character and sometimes it is not, which can leave him seeming weak in both plot and especially character when you look at seasons. I love how Sam is able to change over time, esp. in the first season, but I long for greater depth and coloration. |
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| MegTDJ | Jul 18 2008, 03:34 PM Post #19 |
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That's Funny. And For You, So Bitchy
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Heehee! I've always wanted a twin. ![]() I think I may have worded the bit about Dean wrong... I didn't mean that Sam was purposefully holding Dean at arms' length, I meant that he was so one-track-minded all year that even his relationship with Dean started to suffer for it. Once it got near the time and he realized Dean was dragging his heels over being saved, it was like this wall came up between them (especially in Long Distance Call, when Sam just shrugged off Dean's belief that it was their dad calling him) that didn't really go away until Dean pretty much shook Sam back to reality in the finale. It just seemed like Sam had tunnel-vision all year long until right before the clock struck midnight, and if anybody wasn't 100% into saving Dean, they just weren't registering on his radar... including Dean. If that makes sense? And I'm certainly not saying that was a bad thing... it's probably how I would have reacted, too! If someone you love is in danger like that and you only have so long to stop it, I think it's perfectly natural for it to consume you like that. It's what happened to John after Mary's death... he still loved his boys, but sometimes he got so focused on finding Mary's killer that he just didn't see them. Sam is turning more and more into John every day.
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| Mags | Jul 18 2008, 03:54 PM Post #20 |
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Who You Gonna Call?
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I think this is what they have been leaning towards since MS actually.... that basically Sam and John were so alike they couldnt possibly get on, and Sam is basically turning into his father but a more colder more calculated hunter than John ever was....
And if this is the case reagrding the two boys,im not trying to appease anyone or anything,but, i think i prefer where they are taking Sams character rather than Deans.... if i was a rdg,i would be fairly pissed now that once again the man is gonna struggle internally,while Sams story moves on another little bit...cause what is there left for Dean to do? |
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| megpeach | Jul 18 2008, 07:23 PM Post #21 |
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You Smell Like a Toilet
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Quite frankly, I'm never going to be one to complain about screentime for either brother - they're both such well-developed and interesting characters that it's amazing to see where they go with both of them in terms of the storyline. I have to admit, however (and no offense), that I don't see reason to be miffed in terms of Dean's story. A lot of the struggle on this show is internal, so it's not so large a switch, and Dean's issues have taken a very serious turn that is going to be amazing to see how they resolve it. Sam's story has suffered in that there are so many plot points involving him that seem to just have been arbitrarily dropped - from the death visions to the ramifications from killing a hunter while possessed, and a number of minor things in between. Sadly, both of them have kind of been stuck in place the whole season, which (the more I think about it) is starting to seem as though it might have been purposeful, since they were at such a loss for what to do and a standstill in terms of each other. The main problem was finding a way to go that wouldn't ruin everything. At least we can all look forward to see where they go in the next season, because they left it in such a way that both characters have a serious struggle ahead of them. The worst has happened, so now there's no way for it to remain in stasis. ...if that makes any sense at all. |
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| Mags | Jul 18 2008, 10:29 PM Post #22 |
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Who You Gonna Call?
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Oh i know what you mean alright... and i agree in that i see very little point in any complaining on either side,but particularly Deans character side,but it has happened,and still is happening.what i was trying to get at was,of any of the two guys,it would be Deans character i would lament for if i was to,with the way it seems to be heading again. To me,i just want to enjoy the show,i want to go back to enjoying the show and the characters and the stories and all it brings.Lately i have felt i wasnt anymore,because of all the talk and the dividing of the fans,so i have taken a step back and i find i have begun to enjoy the episodes im rewatching much more looking from a fan of the show perspective rather than simply a Sam fan. I am really looking forward to the new season,because,where they have left it,kinda brings them right back,and now they set off again kinda from scratch.... but to me,its Sams story that seems to be moving on,albeit slowely,but moving all the same.... I wandered off topic lol,forgive me... |
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| Jonijess | Jul 20 2008, 06:47 PM Post #23 |
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You Smell Like a Toilet
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I hear you on that one Mags, I really do. That's one of the reasons I'm staying far away from spoilers as the dissension and sometimes outright hostility was just too much for me to take. It was sucking all the enjoyment right out of the show. I'm in my fandom to discuss the show and enjoy it with my friends, not to deal with people who make snide, nasty comments about this character that I love or worse...are antagonistic to me or friends of mine. About a TV Show! This is supposed to be fun. So I definitely understand where you're coming from. Still, I do have to wonder why after all this time and so many people asking for more insight into Sam's thoughts and feelings and greater depth of characterization why we really haven't seen it, not nearly to the extent we have Dean. It isn't just Sam fans who have noticed it either, I've seen that view expressed from lots of different people. So I don't know. My biggest worry is that yet again we're going to watch Sam from a distance and see him doing morally questionable things and wonder along with Dean if something is "wrong" with him. I'd rather not do that. I'd rather be inside his head and find out what he's struggling with from his POV so I can sympathize with the choices he makes or at the very least understand them. There is sooooo much potential in this character for a lot of really deep character exploration and there have been so many missed opportunities that it kind of breaks my heart a little bit. As far as Sam's plot, it's moved so stultifyingly slowly so far that I'm hard pressed to believe we'll see much revealed this season either. I've noticed that plot points tend to be repeated over and over and over on this show and I think that really slows down the narrative. I would love to see some more of his story revealed because I think once the true identity of Sam is revealed he should have a lot to deal with. I think there's some good stuff in there for Sam but at the rate it's going Kripke's going to have to either revise his five year plan or step it up considerably. I'd also like to see Sam's reactions to the events that happen to him. So often something major happens--he gets possessed, he kills Madison, he dies and is resurrected--and there's no follow through with him. I still love Sammy and I love Dean too and heck I love the show but I've been hopeful a bunch of times that we'd really get to see Sam's POV or get inside his dreams or nightmares or find out what's going on in his head and each time I've been disappointed so I'm at the point of just watching and not getting too hopeful anymore. That's just me of course and I'm certainly not saying that's the "right" way to approach the show. It's my way of approaching the show. I'm not being negative really, just realistic. It's so much easier to watch the show and enjoy what I see rather than hope for what I might never see and it makes the entire fandom experience more pleasurable for me as well, so that's where I've ended up.
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| tammitam | Jul 20 2008, 08:48 PM Post #24 |
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Out of the Fire and Back in the Frying Pan
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I agree with some points, and disagree with others. There is so much on both sides we've not explored, and this is with both boys. And that, I believe, is Kripke's deal that the mytharc should only come like every 4th episode, so he has set a slow pace. There was Mary's "I'm sorry." To Sam. There was the fact that Dean's eyes bled. The fact that Sam could sense Mary, a mother he could not remember, but not his own father. What exactly John knew that Dean might have to kill Sam Why everyone who ever knew Mary died What Ruby wanted in all of this Why Sam was immune Why he was YED's favorite I could go on and on, and not all of it is missing pieces in Sam's sl ... but in SN's SL as a whole, because to me this isn't Sam's SL, it's the Winchester's SL. I'd like to see it move quicker, and I'd like more loose ends tied up ... for both boys. |
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| markie | Jul 21 2008, 01:50 AM Post #25 |
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Who You Gonna Call?
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All I have ever wanted is insight for Sam,when something happens to him tell me how it affects him not Dean or just Dean because it,s Sam it,s happened to, telling me how Dean feels about it is all well and good but as much as I think of Dean it,s not him that I am emotionally as attached too has Sam.. I have never had a problem knowing Dean,s inner thoughts or workings because he is a great character but so is Sam and I need to know and want to understand the many facets of his character and inner thoughts..Balance Mr Kripke is a wonderfully thing ,try it some time you might be pleasantly surprised!!
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| Jonijess | Jul 21 2008, 08:53 PM Post #26 |
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You Smell Like a Toilet
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I wholeheartedly agree with this and really the storyline piece is the least of my concern. Yes there are things I would have loved to see happen but the long and the short of it is that it's Kripke's story to tell. So if some things were dropped that I wish weren't that's the way it is. Also sometimes things are dropped due to forces outside of Kripke's control, such as the strike or availability of the actors, etc. So I'm not all that worried about what the storyline is going to be (other than Sam going evil, hate that idea ) because that isn't up to me anyway. No, I'm more concerned with seeing Sam's reaction to and what he's thinking and feeling about whatever storyline Kripke decides to pursue. What's going on inside his head as a result of what happens to both him and Dean. An examination of his reaction and why he reacts the way he does. Does that make sense? Eh, like I said, we'll see what happens and I'll enjoy it for what it is. Trying to put my ideas of how much insight we should get into Sam hasn't worked very well for me so far so going unspoiled and waiting to see what Kripke decides to do and taking it as it comes is probably going to be better. |
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| sammycat | Jul 22 2008, 01:10 PM Post #27 |
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I Full-On Swayze'd That Mother
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Both brothers need proper attention, but I feel that Sam in particular has been given the slip on so many occasions, with so many opportunities lost, that it breaks my heart just thinking about it. I expect the same for season 4, honestly. I live in hope, but will never trust Kripke to do right by Sam until I see it on my tv screen. Once I see it, then maybe I will put some trust in Kripke about Sam's sl and characterisation again. I feel that Dean has better and more solid characterisation, and because of this, better and more solid plotting than Sam gets. It doesn't matter to me what Sam's plot is if it moves so slowly that you can only piece it together like some gigantic puzzle when the show is over. I think the Deal plotline was meant to intertwine Sam and Dean's stories together, and it partially worked. It moved Sam forward into morally gray territory, pushing him to act in ways he wouldn't have considered in seasons 1 or 2. But at the same time, if you consider how the CRD killing was treated - they set Sam up to look bad without any insight into his thinking or feeling. They muddied the waters with Bobby and Dean's treatment of Ruby (and hence her human host), but I think most fans understood that Sam's behavior was definitely worrisome; many have labeled him a murderer on that act alone. The key for me is that in this, and in Jus in Bello, the effort to get inside Sam's thinking was about nil. Result, Dean looks like a Prince and Sam like a Heel, willing to sacrifice innocents just because someone said so, or because he isn't considering human lives, which ties into season 1 complaints about him not caring about PiPs more than running off and finding Dad and the YED. Anyway, I think most of what Sam fans are asking for are small touches of insight into Sam. When something happens to him, good or bad, what does that do to him? If Sam is covering his feelings up, please let us see that. My one hope on this show is that it won't end with Sam evil or dead. I used to be really excited about Sam being at the center of this huge mythic storyline when I first started watching the show, but I have no idea what I'm looking at anymore. I'd love to be able to just sit back and enjoy the ride. I think the problem is that I thought I was riding a huge strapping stallion, but now I'm wondering if my stallion is more like an easily distracted tortoise.
Maybe that is the problem, in that Dean gets to be Dean, but Sam's sl is just this generic Winchester Family Saga, of which Dean seems to have a bigger role than he does anyway. Lots of Dean fans feel like he only gets covered in the MOTW stories, but there are more of those than the mytharc ones, so he winds up getting a full, fleshed out season and more of the general season. Maybe that isn't quite true, but it often feels like it's true. I do understand about Sam's character changing more than Dean's, and this is something I appreciate for Sam. What I'm asking is for Kripke to stop and take a snapshot of Sam once in awhile. If something big happens to Sam, pause long enough to let it sink in. Give him a line of dialogue for once. A line, that's a minute, two minutes. That shouldn't take away anything from Dean while it would benefit Sam enormously. It's not all doom and gloom. If I hated everything about what they did with Sam on the show, I probably wouldn't be a Sam fan, Sammygirl, Woman of Sam. I have enough to love, but I long for more......... |
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| The Wonderer | Jul 23 2008, 06:00 PM Post #28 |
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That’s Why I Always Got the Extra Cookie
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If we're adopting twins I think Sammycat is mine. Dear lord woman, I agree with everything you said, except the part about you riding a tortoise...I've been riding a donkey for the last two years. God I couldn't have put my thoughts any better than what you said...so everything you said and then some. I have my fingers crossed for S4, but until I see it for myself I won't believe it or trust it. |
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| MalAdjusted | Jul 24 2008, 12:57 AM Post #29 |
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What Would Buffy Do?
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Sammycat, I really couldn't agree more. And I'm not asking that they stop giving Dean characterization, or that they take anything from him, I only want to see the things Sams involved in fleshed out. It infuriates me how anything important to Sams life goes without a proper reaction. Spirit!John pretty much ignored him in the S2 finale, and I waited forever to hear how that effected sam (not to mention the whole "I was DEAD" bit). Later I found out that John didn't react to Sam because there was a glitch in filming, and they couldn't get JDM back in time, so they JUST LEFT IT OUT. They could have easily had a stand in from behind give Sam a nod or hug, they could have made an effort, but like everything in sams story, it just wasn't important enough to be bothered with. It angers me, because I guarantee they would not have left Deans interaction with John out of the episode. I'd like to know what Sam really went through over not only losing his father, but for a while kind of losing Dean too. I;d like to know where the hell he went and what happened when he died. Sadly, I fear that what one of the EDGs said at the other board is true 'they didn't show what happened to Sam then because it wasn't important'. That just pisses me off. Sam is a wonderful character- deep and layered and so terribly human and real, and EK doesn't seem to see it. I was drawn to him right from the first ep. he was such a quietly wounded hero in his own right, and I understood that even though he bitched about not wanting to do the job, not wanting to go into the woods- he still put himself between the Wendigo and the gorms. He was a hero without having to wear the shiny badge and hat. I hate that they seem determined to send him darkside. I dont trust them at all to be able to pull it off well, or to bring him back before they push him too far. I don't want to watch the story of Cain and Abel, thats not why I watch this show! Sadly, I've told my friends I'm not watching next season, as I have no interest in watching them destroy Sams character. I will tape the show, and if I hear rave reviews, I'll put them in and watch it a month or so into the season, when I get a good sense of where its heading.
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| tammitam | Jul 24 2008, 04:52 AM Post #30 |
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Out of the Fire and Back in the Frying Pan
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Funny ... I don't necessarily believe that. That was one scene, and there was a glitch in it when the other part of it went okay? Eh, that's bullshit, and I don't believe it.
Mal that is very, very sad! I'll try and keep you posted, and keep your spirits up! I have hope, no matter how small it is ... that Sam will thrive. And honestly, as much as I loved Possessed Sam, I don't want him to go evil, at least not for an entire season, and certainly where it's not redeemable.PS~ Wonder Twin ... we are rubbing off on people! |
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) because that isn't up to me anyway. No, I'm more concerned with seeing Sam's reaction to and what he's thinking and feeling about whatever storyline Kripke decides to pursue. What's going on inside his head as a result of what happens to both him and Dean. An examination of his reaction and why he reacts the way he does. Does that make sense?


3:46 AM Jul 11