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Sam's Lack of ... Anything; And Yet He Shines!
Topic Started: Jun 24 2008, 08:48 AM (1,154 Views)
MegTDJ
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That's Funny. And For You, So Bitchy
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What happened was, JDM was only available to film his scene 6 weeks before they filmed the rest of the ep, and the script wasn't quite finished at the time. In the rough draft, Sam had just been in a huge fist-fight with Jake and was all covered in blood, so that's how they filmed the original scene with John.

When it came time to actually shoot the ep, they were running out of time and money after being flooded out of the cemetery they were supposed to film in and having to build one from scratch on an indoor set, so they had to cut the fight scene and just have Sam shoot him. Therefore, Sam was no longer covered in blood, so they had to film Sam's stuff again.

I do like that they at least had Sam and John exchange a smile and a nod, but it would have been nice if John had said something to him. Heck, to either of them! I really don't understand why he had no lines, when they went to all the trouble of getting JDM back. :(
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tammitam
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Out of the Fire and Back in the Frying Pan
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Maybe they thought it would be more nostalgic for John to just smile.

I wish Sam and Jake had gotten into a huge fight, that would have been so awesome!
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MegTDJ
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That's Funny. And For You, So Bitchy
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Heh, I kinda liked that Sam just went psycho and shot him a bunch of times. ;)
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vonnie836
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I'm Not Pathetic, Like You
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MegTDJ,Jul 24 2008
04:12 PM
Heh, I kinda liked that Sam just went psycho and shot him a bunch of times. ;)

I would have liked it even better, if Sam would have gotten into a huge fight with Jake and Jake would have knocked him down and Dean would have tried to help. Jake would have gotten the upper hand, tried to kill Dean and Sam lost it and shot Jake multiple times.
:shoot

Now, tell me, am I psycho or not? Sometimes I'm not sure anymore, because my family sure thinks I am. :bigha:
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sammycat
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I Full-On Swayze'd That Mother
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Sam covered in blood would have been awesome....... But shooting dead people over and over again certainly shows what kind of mood Sam was in, yikes!

What Kripke needed to do was go and ask PTB for a multi-part finale, or a two-hour finale. They could say no, but by asking, he gives them a chance to say yes. He put too much stuff in his script to begin with, let alone for the budget.

It still hurts to see Sam on the sidelines with Dad and Dean getting the one on one treatment. I know why it happened, but everytime I see him off to the side, it hurts me. :(

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starbright73
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Reading through all this (yeah, it took me a while) :lol: I think the one red thread is that Sam is something of an enigma. And I think he's supposed to be. His character is very complex, maybe not on the surface but underneath what is overtly shown. So I agree, I think it is a plot device.

If you think how much Sam has changes (and major kudos to Jared for bringing that about and still staying Sam!) it clear to me that the character is meant to be less than clear-cut. But after the loss of writers and the excellent producer in Peter Johnson, I'm starting to think Kripke is in a little over his head. I think that that as shown very clearly at the end of S3, or even througout it since I find it very uneven.

I am not even sure we'll see what Sam is all about until the end of S5! Just to keep us guessing. Bit I do fear Sam's sl is being dragged out I'm not entire convinced it's ther ight way to go but we'll see.

I find that Jared as Sam gives us clues in many eps, clues that are almost imperceptible and then, in a later ep they are brought to front. That was vey notable in the stellar S1, where there were more (better?) writers and the producer really knew what he was doing.

Dean is also easier to write for; he has his pillars of foundation that are very palpable (his love for his family, the big brother status, the masked low-self-esteem, and his love for the Impala). Sam's are more intrinsic; his unknown destiny, the inner strength, his need of normalcy and the ongoing inner fight. All those are harder to write about since they are all allusive and not tangible.

Still sometimes I feel I understand Sam better than I understand Dean. But I think that's all Jared and the way he manages to come through the screen even with complex emotions. Sam's so very human to me, despite the devil's blood in him.

And I hope that's intentional from Kripke's side.

.
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vonnie836
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I'm Not Pathetic, Like You
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starbright73,Aug 10 2008
10:12 AM


Still sometimes I feel I understand Sam better than I understand Dean. But I think that's all Jared and the way he manages to come through the screen even with complex emotions. Sam's so very human to me, despite the devil's blood in him.


.

I so agree with you. I don't know about others, but to me, Sam is really a lot like what I feel like at times. There are so many unknowns in the future, "destinies" if you want to call them that. It scares me to see some things I am capable of, not that I think I'm evil, but sometimes it's just a little lie that comes out or the way I talk to someone, if I'm in a bad mood or they irritate me. I also look at my children and the way other peoples children turned out, and that can be really scary.

We all have our own 'dark side' that we fight against, trying not to turn into something we don't want to be. The fear of loosing things or people we love is so real some days and it seems it doesn't always bring the best out in us. We hide emotions and wear masks in front of others. And sometimes we loose it and get emotional and cry and scream, well at least I do, to prevent someone else to do something they might regret. Going from being happy and laughing to sad and brooding in a second,or the other way around, that is something that happens a lot to me.

Maybe I'm totally off track here, but maybe that's why I like Sam so much, because I identify with him and I see a lot of my kids in him.
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starbright73
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Dude, I'm Matlock
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I agree, Sam's not totally good or totally evil. He is this fascinating mixture of everything and that is what, for me, makes him so easy to understand and love, faults and all.

Granted, I want to whack him over the head and roll my eyes at times. But that just makes him totally human. :lol:
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tammitam
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Out of the Fire and Back in the Frying Pan
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I honestly don't think Sam, given a fair choice, demon blood or not, would be evil. Buit he was right, everyone, given the right circumstances, can be a killer. Sam is being led in many instances. I think (and this is not a spoiler, just my personal thought) that Lillith set up Sam's death, knowing Dean would sacrifice himself, because once she had Dean, well, Sam would do anything and everything she said.

Just something I've thought about because I have way too much to think about lately!

Anyway, I relate to Sam in many ways, partly I think because I am the youngest and can understand that POV so much.
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sammycat
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Quote:
 
Dean is also easier to write for; he has his pillars of foundation that are very palpable (his love for his family, the big brother status, the masked low-self-esteem, and his love for the Impala). Sam's are more intrinsic; his unknown destiny, the inner strength, his need of normalcy and the ongoing inner fight. All those are harder to write about since they are all allusive and not tangible.

Still sometimes I feel I understand Sam better than I understand Dean. But I think that's all Jared and the way he manages to come through the screen even with complex emotions. Sam's so very human to me, despite the devil's blood in him.



The danger is that viewers will tune into Dean and Jensen first, block out Sam and Jared (and I do think there are some Dean fans who do this, because everyone else is "invisible" if Dean is there), and simply not see or sympathize with Sam; all their empathy is used up in Dean, leaving much less for Sam. This can happen in the other direction, but I haven't particularly noticed it from the Sam direction. At any rate, the danger with a bells and whistles character like Dean is that he is so much easier to connect with on surface than Sam, so people gravitate to him, because he is jumping up and down and getting their attention.

What I've found with Sam is that he is winning people over slowly and quietly, and so is Jared.

Now, for me, I think people are mistaking Sam's destiny, demon blood, and powers, for lack of humanity, for perfection, for privilage, and they resent Sam having any such status. The way I view Sam, however, is in how I take his personality, and for me, his personality and presentation on the show are very human and down to earth. Dean has his flaws, too, yes, but he is presented in a very OTT manner, from his humor to his self-esteem issues, and esp. his heroism. While Sam's Yin is merely Yin, Dean's Yang is Yang in extremis. So, I always end up saying that it is Sam who I could picture seeing on the street, and that that is why I have connected with him so much. Giving Sam powers or a some kind of Demon King status will very likely not change that for me, because Sam has such a low-key presentation on the show. I find him so much easier to relate to as a human being, as Sam, the lost boy and little brother, the angry and reluctant hero, the neglected child and beloved baby of the family, the childhood rebel and prodigal son, the sweet and sympathetic soul who feels forced to cope with creating collateral damage (possibly hurting people) in fighting a war he wants no part of. I like Sam because he is smart and button-downed, yet emotionally naked so much of the time.





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tammitam
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sammycat
 
I find him so much easier to relate to as a human being, as Sam, the lost boy and little brother, the angry and reluctant hero, the neglected child and beloved baby of the family, the childhood rebel and prodigal son, the sweet and sympathetic soul who feels forced to cope with creating collateral damage (possibly hurting people) in fighting a war he wants no part of. I like Sam because he is smart and button-downed, yet emotionally naked so much of the time.


:fing22 So well said SC that I don't really have anything to add. You just pinpointed Sam in the most awesome way. I love your insight. The lost boy part made me sniffle, as I think about young Sam in AVSNC and it makes me utterly sad.

Poor Sam! He needs a hug! :hug:
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sammycat
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I Full-On Swayze'd That Mother
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:hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:


Yes, I really love Sam and relate to him on a basic level. And for me, the evil destiny hoo-haw doesn't factor into that, partly because the show just sits on it forever and ever, and partly because I am relating to his overall personality. I do think some people like Dean because they are first children also, the big brother or big sister, and understand his sense of family duty and love and his need to be needed. But I am ever drawn to the silent, still types like Sam, and for me, very little about him or his presentation on the show smacks of superheroics, and if he does get charged up with super demon powers, I am betting that I would still be able to relate to him the way I do now (except that I will be scared for his poor soul, oh Sammy). Dean always feels more like the Super Action Hero on the show to me, and on some level, this is how I relate to him. With Sam, even as he is kept an enigma for bizarre story-telling reasons (um, Kripke luffs Greta Garbo???), I feel that he resonates more as a street-level human being with me. I think Dean fans feel just the opposite to this, and say so, but this is how I feel about Sam and Dean and how I relate to the way the show presents them.

I happen to love Kirk and Spock about equally, you just can't have one without the other, but I do find that in animes, I respond to the secondary, quiet leads more often than I do to the hyper-active crazy fighters that are generally the lead characters.

In the first series Companion book to SPN, Jared mentions that he sometime had a better grasp of Sam in some moments than he did at others, and related that to how lost Sam's character was in general. *throws in a hug for Jared* :hug:


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MalAdjusted
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I certainly can't come up with anything more eloquent than whats already been stated here, so I'll just add that for whatever reason, Sammy was instantly relatable to me.

Even in the first episode you could get a sense of being downtrodden. Of being a sort of 'everyman', working hard at his grades, maintaining a relationship, focusing on a future. Somehow lonely inside himself, even when surrounded by friends.

I also responded on a deeper level to the fact that he had the strength to pack up and do what was best for him. I know its one of the things EDGs attack him for, but I left home at 17 to find 'normal' myself, distancing myself from my alchoholic mother. Sam's family lifestyle might seem exciting and 'romantic' from a TV point of view, but Sam understood it was dangerous, grim, dark and unhealthy...just look where its gotten him and Dean both. He was right, and it took great courage and strentgh to not only leave home, but to better himself through school and relationships.
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lemongrass
You Smell Like a Toilet
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What I've found with Sam is that he is winning people over slowly and quietly, and so is Jared.


He sure is! It helps that Jared's acting just keeps getting better and better. I think IMTOD was the ep that signalled a whole new level of acting and he's been on that level since.

I like that so many Dean fans have come around and started loving Sam more. It seems they had a problem with Sam in early Season One. I never understood that, can't they see that he's grieving? Anyway, I'm used to hearing that they didn't like Sam back in S1.

I read the other day a post from a self-admitted 'converted Dean girl'. This is what she said - I didn't like Sam much at all. To me, he came across as too condescending to be a truly sympathetic character. But oh boy, have times changed! These days, I find it hard to say which character I find the most interesting, or feel the most for! Sam's been put through the emotional wringer... His pain is tangible in everything he does, everything he doesn't say. All credit to Jared and the writers.

Another Dean girl said it took her Sammy love a few episodes to get going because she was suspicious of Sam before. And one wasn't fully won over until IMTOD because she thought Dean loved Sam more than Sam loved Dean.

I guess that's the problem with a boy like Sam, he's not an in your face character. But he does grow on you nicely!

Also, I never understood why some Deangirls said that the powers were making it hard for them to relate to Sam. I mean, here I am an ordinary person and if I had powers, I would be so tempted to go too far or fear them and feel like a freak so what's not to relate?

I actually find Dean harder to relate too. I sympathise with him but I'm not the self-sacrificing type so I can admire him but that's not quite the same as relating.



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SupernaturalSammy67
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dammit!! i feel strung along...by EK

he is an awesome director but man i wish it was like the good ole days in season 1....where there just brothers and havnt been brought back like....twice each ya know...

and i miss meg...for some reason

i think i need to be shot now, for saying that...eek!

lol

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