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Are We Being Tricked?; the Sam issue
Topic Started: Oct 11 2008, 08:42 PM (363 Views)
MalAdjusted
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What Would Buffy Do?
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Ok, hear me out. They've been beating us over the head with Is Sam Eeevil for a long while now. But what if its misdirection? Slight of hand?

How do we know Sam has any choice about learning to use his powers? I mean really? He was not 'learning to control his powers' or 'playing with fire' when he had visions, or when he used his ability to save Deans life in Nightmare (in an instinctual gut-reaction kind of way). That and Sams words about 'having this in me, and I can't just pull it out' make me wonder if this isn't more a matter of the powers being there, whether Sam wants them or not. What if, after deflecting Lilith, again instinctually and without trying, if that 'switch' has already been finally and permanently flipped? What if Sam has these powers, and they were bleeding into his life as the visions did), without him having any control of that? What if Sam has been learning to control them as a way of keeping them under control?

Dean got a warning from the angels that Sam had to be stopped because it was a dark road Sam was treading and they don't know where it leads.

Then how do they know its such a dark frickin' road? Two factions of Hell are coming to a head here. Lilith wants Sam dead. She's the bad guy in all this, and Sam stands opposed to her, and to the Yed. Why is that bad?

In JiB, Ruby came snotting in at the end and told the boys that Nancy and Henricksons deaths were their fault, because they didn't go with her plan. Discussion on the board disagreed, because Lilith already knew the boys were in the jail- she sent the demon horde after them. She would have arrived in the morning and killed whoever she found no matter whose plan they followed. They were only wrong and responsible because she, and the writers, said so. But the truth is, they weren't.

We've been told Sams powers are eeeeevil. Yet Sam's visions saved lives, and Dean was perfectly willing to investigate them. Andy never turned, and had been freely using his power for a while. Yes, he shot his brother- a brother he had never known, and who was a homicidal maniac to SAVE lives. It wasn't a vendetta, it was a matter of Dean and Tracy's lives at stake. Dean was willing to kill Jack, who hadn't killed anyone yet, as soon as he found out Jack could become evil. Webber was already evil. Sam, exorcising demons in a way that doesn't kill the host (as opposed to Deans suggestion that they keep using the knife and killing the innocent victims!!!) is also NOT evil. Not any more than using his visions to save lives was evil. We're being told these things are bad, but really, thus far, they haven't actually been so. I saw some posts snitting that Sam's new way of exorcising demons left Flo's host dead, so it was eeeevil, Sammy was eeevil, etc.

Hello? Trust me, when Dean stabbed Tammy 30 times, I guarantee her host didn't survive THAT either. Neither did that cop he killed- an innocent cop who might have been a husband, a father, and even a hero.

Does that mean Dean is eeeevil too???

I sometimes wonder if we are purposely being mislead to think these things, so we will be shocked (and maybe thrilled) to get hit from left field with a cool twist- that all this 'yer powers are dark, Sammy' crap was to deter him from using his powers for Good.

Probably not. I don't trust EK to give me a happy ending with Sam the Hero that I long for him to be.

But so far, I've seen nothing at all to indicate that Sam is wrong to use his power. He has spent all summer saving lives, saving innocent people trapped and tormented inside their demon possessed shells. Dean told him not to, but like I said, the powers were there anyway, if facing Lilith was the last straw to set them floating free in his blood, then, really, Sam may have had no choice at all. Control it, or possibly accidentally hurt/kill someone next time he has a nightmare. I can see that as one of the few plausible reasons to turn to Ruby for help learning to control them.

He said he's going to stop. Perhaps he feels he has things nailed down enough to keep a lid on them. I don't think the headache was a sign of 'addiction to his powers' as some have said. Those headaches started before he started getting his visions. I agree with the person who posted its more likely a warning- that another power is about to bubble to the surface.

If that happens, does Sam simply let it go wild, or will he have to learn to control it?


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tammitam
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I agree to some extent. Sam was using his powers for good.

But -- he killed that demon in anger, because it pissed him off. I rewatched the episode, and I watched Ruby's face, and how gleeful she looked that he killed the demon in rage, not for the good of anything other than it pissed him off.

So yes, Sam was using his powers for good, but ... absolute power corrupts absolutely. It's a lesson in history that I firmly believe would happen. No matter how good a person is, power corrupts.

So I don't disagree that Sam meant no harm, not even to the demon in the diner, who would have died anyway ... hello ... no eyes!

And while I hope and pray that Sam doesn't go evil, I honestly think Sam's powers will destroy him, but I think, in the end, it will be for good. That he'll go out a hero.
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MalAdjusted
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Ugh, I so am not going to watch it go there. I'll hang in until he gets to the 'sacrificing puppies and ruining birthdays' level of eeeebil, then I'm out and off to watch Jareds movie career instead.

BUT!

Do you mean he killed the demon at the beginning of the ep in anger? because I thought he was sending it back to hell, where it supposedly belongs. Like returning a rampaging bear to the wilds. And the human lived, and Sam was happy, so I disagree that he did anything that even hints at evil there. It would have been more evil if he'd gotten angry and stabbed it with Rubys knife- then he would have killed it, and the human.

As for absolute power corrupting, I dont buy that either. There were powerful leaders of yore that didn't start a holocaust. Leaders that shaped and changed the world for the better.

With great power comes great repsonsibility (haven't you seen X-Men?) :P
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tammitam
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Yup, I saw X-Men ... but I also saw Sam's face, he was pissed, and sent it back to hell because it pissed him off. And Ruby is egging that on. She's playing him, and thus far he's bought it.
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Irishgirl
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Remember the crossroads demon? Sam shot her with the colt b/c she pissed him off.
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MalAdjusted
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Irishgirl,Oct 12 2008
02:31 PM
Remember the crossroads demon? Sam shot her with the colt b/c she pissed him off.

Remeber the vampire that Dean sawed the head off because he was, lets say, moody?

I don't think Sams done a single 'bad' thing that can't easily be equated with something Dean did.
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MalAdjusted
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tammitam,Oct 12 2008
07:45 AM
Yup, I saw X-Men ... but I also saw Sam's face, he was pissed, and sent it back to hell because it pissed him off. And Ruby is egging that on. She's playing him, and thus far he's bought it.

I agree Ruby is egging him on. But I also think Sam was planning to send the demon back to hell anyway, thats what he was there for.

And Deans face is always pissed when he kills, so that doesn't sell me on Evil!Sammy.
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MegTDJ
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I don't really understand what you're trying to reason out here. If you don't think that Sam is evil, then why are you so worried that he is? I've never gotten the impression from anything that's been said or done on the show or by Kripke/the writers/actors/whoever that Sam is going to become evil and be the bad guy of the show. IMO, everything so far has been telling us that the main arc of Supernatural is Sam trying to redeem himself. He was more or less sold to Azazel before he was even born in order to save his father's life, and since then, even before he knew he had the demon blood, it's like he's been trying to reclaim his life as his own. I have a feeling that at the end of the series, that's exactly what he'll do.

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I don't think Sams done a single 'bad' thing that can't easily be equated with something Dean did.


Can we please, please, please not go here? This is what gives Sam fans a bad name in the Dean fans' eyes, and vice versa... comparing the two brothers to make a point about one. It never ends well.

Both boys have done things they shouldn't, yes. Both boys have enjoyed certain kills, yes. Neither of them are "evil" right now, but what we're being told is that Sam has the potential to be because of his demon blood, and every time he ignores his conscience and shuts himself off in order to either make a ruthless kill or use his powers, even if it's for a good cause, it seems as though the demon blood gains one more notch on the scoreboard. The more it happens, the more Sam will lose sight of who he is. At least, that's my take on it. The question here is whether he can continue to control these abilities of his, or whether perhaps Ruby has been egging him on because she knows that as soon as he takes one step across the line, the demon blood will kick into overdrive and he'll turn into what Ava and Jake became. It's what Dean is afraid of, too, and why he was so desperate to stop Sam from continuing on that road.

I have every faith that the show will end with Sam a "hero," though. I fully expect his battle with the demon blood to continue, and I fully expect it to come to a head around the final episodes of the series... but there's no way Kripke will end the show like that. What would have been the point of the series? He's building this up over 5 seasons only to give no payoff? I don't think so. The payoff is going to be HUGE, and I can't wait. ;)

But even if Sam does go evil and die a villain, it doesn't really matter. Jared will turn in an awesome performance we can watch and admire, and then we can pretend it never happened and bask in the land of denial with our favourite fan fictions. ;)
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tammitam
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MalAdjusted,Oct 12 2008
06:54 PM
tammitam,Oct 12 2008
07:45 AM
Yup, I saw X-Men ... but I also saw Sam's face, he was pissed, and sent it back to hell because it pissed him off.  And Ruby is egging that on.  She's playing him, and thus far he's bought it.

I agree Ruby is egging him on. But I also think Sam was planning to send the demon back to hell anyway, thats what he was there for.

And Deans face is always pissed when he kills, so that doesn't sell me on Evil!Sammy.

I didn't realize this was a Sam VS. Dean discussion. I thought this was did we think Sam could go evil, or what he was doing was bad. And yes, it could go into the bad arena. And this has nothing to do with Dean, in fact, I'd like to keep Dean out of this discussion, because each brother should be weighed on themselves, not compared to what the other did or has done.

I agree with Meg to keep it away from the Sam VS Dean arena. I'd like to discuss Sam's plusses and minuses without comparing them to how good or bad Dean has been. I'm not saying everything Dean has done has been saintly, but this isn't a Dean discussion ... it's a Sam one.

And while I don't find Sam's actions to be evil, I do think he's crossed a line ... based on Sam's standards, no one elses.
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Irishgirl
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MalAdjusted,Oct 12 2008
06:53 PM
Irishgirl,Oct 12 2008
02:31 PM
Remember the crossroads demon?  Sam shot her with the colt b/c she pissed him off.

Remeber the vampire that Dean sawed the head off because he was, lets say, moody?

I don't think Sams done a single 'bad' thing that can't easily be equated with something Dean did.

I wasn't trying to do a Sam vs Dean thing. It's just when I read the second post, Sam's meeting with the CRD popped into my head.

Remember the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I love that Sam wants to use his powers to save people, but if his powers come from something evil, then could they turn Sam evil. I don't want Sam to become evil and die a villain.
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