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Episode 6.03 “The Third Man”; Episode discussion and rating poll
Topic Started: Oct 8 2010, 02:00 PM (423 Views)
fandrea
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You're Like a Walking Encyclopedia of Weirdness
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I did note � and possibly this was an omission on the writers� part � that Castiel didn�t mention Samuel�s �resurrection� at all, just said �Heaven wasn�t responsible� for �Sam�s Return�� and �God hadn�t returned�.


That's interesting I totally forgot the weird Campbell bunch. *blush* But guess Castiel doesn't have a connection to them or he doesn't think the two are related? :huh:

He probably didn't think it concerned heaven though, otherwise he would have answered Sam's call.

Oh the Destiel moment. I cannot wait to see the fics from that one. *gags* It was bad enough that we had to listen to the EDGs going on and on about how Castiel answered his BFF.

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I liked Balthazar and I got the impression that Balty was the first angel to �buy� a human soul in exchange for giving the person (a weapon of �God� or part of) what he/she wanted most to achieve � in Aaron�s case he wanted �God� to strike down those the lying cops. I don�t think we�ve seen the last of Balthazar and his �cache� of �Heaven�s stolen weapons� and possibly one or upcoming episodes will feature both Balty and another person who sold their soul and performed a destructive or murderous act.

Sam looked really frightened when Castiel told them Raphael was a tradionalist and sought to put the Apocalypse back on track.


I liked Baltazar too, I definitely don't think we have seen the last of him either. Methinks he is somehow connected to Sam getting out of hell some way, but that's just speculation. :unsure:

And the frightened look on Sam's face, now that was a shocker, the first glimps of Sam underneath the hardened exterior? In that scene that was Sam scared shitless definitely.

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This where I �picked� the �Wonder if that happened to me?� vibe. Could be Sam has a split soul (part of Sam IS still in the Cage). Or, �Someone� bought Sam�s soul, and has Sam on a leash just as Lucifer had Death on a leash. Or, part of Sam�s and Lucifer�s personality traits merged because they were MFEO and were scrambled by whatever �Force� resurrected him and that�s why Sam has moments of �Cold/Cruel, Angelic, detachment� and sometimes the �Warmer, empathetic Sam personality� peaks through, particularly when he�s alone with Dean. Whoever resurrected Sam (if the �force� and owns his soul) could have wiped his memory, except that Sam feels compelled to hunt 24/7 but he doesn�t know why.

The �boy� and Bobby had both sold their souls and weren�t walking around like Zombies. I agree and really suspect that this episode implies that there�s something going on with Sam�s soul but I don�t what yet. Lucifer did say he and Sam were two halves made whole, maybe if the show is smart, that statement will have meaning, as well as Sam downing the enormous quantity of demon blood when the show didn�t have to write it that way, Sam was Lucifer�s true vessel, end of story, no added DB necessary.

Balthazar said human souls are a valuable commodity and which humans have the most valued souls � Sam and Dean, as true vessels for the most powerful archangels. Raphael could be picking up where Michael left off � before his vessel was turned to salt, that is, and while I don�t think he has the power to unlock Luci�s cage personally and resurrect Sam (leaving Luci on ice for the moment), he wants the apocalypse back on track with prize fight to be on again.

Rafe wants his �Paradise on Earth� and he was thwarted by two flannel wearing maggots. First he plans on taking control of Heaven then if it plays as S4 and S5 (I really doubt it will though), will collaborate with high level demons to free Lucifer (and Mikey). And Raphael didn�t really zero in on Sam � as Luci�s vessel, or Dean for that matter. He just focused on kicking the crap out of Castiel in a rather lame scene if you ask me.


I have to agree on the Sam not beeing completely soulless part, Sam definitely has feelings and is more like himself around Dean. And he is definitely not pure evil or dead. I am more thinking that maybe part of his soul got ripped out and someone has it. Maybe a part of a deal or someone bought it. (Heh, wouldn't it be a kicker if even a part of Sam's soul has enough value for something?) I do think Raphale and his apoc-pals have to do something with bringing Sam back, they need Lucifers vessel topside afterall. And yes that angel fight scene was lame...

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I don�t like it either, and while I�m certain that �New!Sam� is meant to be shown as being mostly devoid of empathy, Dean (in contrast to S6 Sam) has been the self-righteous, frequently overly self-righteous, �Moral Compass� since S3 , so it�s not really so new as Dean�s moral compass has been supercharged by his obligations to his �Pod!Family�.

Dean�s overly �moral compass� almost interfered with Castiel�s investigation and if the show had not proceeded with Cas�s �torturing the (murderous) young teen�, the trio wouldn�t have obtained Balty�s name, located Balthazar and learned that he had stolen not only the staff of Moses but more weapons. As Bobby said in NRFTW �With the right name, and the right ritual, there ain�t anything you can�t suss out�.

Names have Power, especially on Supernatural in dealing with Angels and demons(and in some cultures it�s the reason why at birth children are given one name and another ceremony some years later to get their �real name� which is often kept private). The teen didn�t have �Balthazar�s name� but if he had, and told Castiel, there would have been no need to �read the brand� on the teen�s soul. By learning Balty�s name and that he was selling his �products� in return for people�s souls, the Winchesters could � in theory � save other people. Dean offered no other solution and they couldn�t exactly put Balthazar in a line-up to have the boy pick him out. Dean couldn�t use his knack with �children� to get them the information they needed.

Plus, as you said, the boy wasn�t innocent, horribly murdering the three cops. Sam was concerned enough about Cas�s plan to �read the boy�s soul� to ask if that there would be no permanent damage to the boy and was assured there wouldn�t be and that Castiel was right and the cops would return the boy to his home. So I really didn�t see Sam as cold and devoid of emotion concerning the teen.

With that said, however, I�m very surprised Castiel let his �brother go� after Balthazar released Aaron�s soul. I don�t blame Dean at all for having major objections to that because now they (Castiel and the Winchester) know that there�s a dangerous rogue angel with both the stolen weapons of Heaven at his disposal and likely selling pieces for human souls.


Yes this is exactly why I don't like moral-compass Dean. And I was also surprised that Castiel just let Balty go like that and with all the weapons no less! Later it's going to bite then in the butt, I am sure...

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Yeah, 3 cheers for Sam in peril but actually I would have preferred if Dean was the one in peril and Sam had sent �the angels to the outfield�. BUT I HOPE that the show was wise and IF Sam had drawn the sigil with his blood, if it didn�t �sizzle�, that would be 90%+ �Proof Positive� that Sam didn�t have ANY demon blood anymore, and I�m HOPING that the show is leaving the question of �Is Sam demon blood free� as a mystery for now.


Well what can I say I have been very deprived of sam in peril and hurt!Sam (and protective Dean), I take what I can get. :lol:

And yeah I really hope we get the demon blood mystery cleared up, just hope they don't drag it out too much though. (As they usually do.)

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As I said on another board, I think the show missed a golden opportunity here. Maybe New!Sam through away his IPod and no longer listens to any music but I�d like to have been shown some of the personal touches Sam had added to his car, and now it�s too late. I HATED Dean�s �Silver Lining� comment, too, just as much as when Dean through Sam�s IPod in the backseat of HIS CAR in Lazarus Rising. I didn�t that that was funny ha ha either � it�s like the show�s working a little hard to show the audience that Dean�s POV is the only thing that matters, since Supernatural is usually from Dean's POV.


Yes to this too...

Ok it's late at night and I really shouldbe in bed (well ok I am on my bed with my laptop) so I hope the commentingmakes sense.

fandrea
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Irishgirl
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A Big, Steamy Pile of Nothing
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As I said on another board, I think the show missed a golden opportunity here. Maybe New!Sam through away his IPod and no longer listens to any music but I’d like to have been shown some of the personal touches Sam had added to his car, and now it’s too late. I HATED Dean’s “Silver Lining” comment, too, just as much as when Dean through Sam’s IPod in the backseat of HIS CAR in Lazarus Rising. I didn’t that that was funny ha ha either – it’s like the show’s working a little hard to show the audience that Dean’s POV is the only thing that matters, since Supernatural is usually from Dean's POV.

I has not happy that Sam's car was destroyed. Why couldn't they have let him store it at Bobby's?

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Oh the Destiel moment. I cannot wait to see the fics from that one. *gags* It was bad enough that we had to listen to the EDGs going on and on about how Castiel answered his BFF.

I think I know what you're talking about. What I find funny is that a lot of people were crowing about Castiel's 'special' bond with Dean. First off Cas never used the word special and secondly if you know anything about grammar, which I do, Cas didn't say he had no bond with Sam, he just said that the bond he was more profound thus implying a bond with Sam, just not as profound as the one with Dean. Which makes sense to me b/c Cas has spent more time with Dean. It bothered me that some viewers interpreted that to mean that Cas and Sam had no bond what so ever.
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tammitam
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Out of the Fire and Back in the Frying Pan
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I finally rated this "It was okay" though I was torn between that and pretty good. Pretty good only because there was something there that had been missing in episodes 1&2. I liked the banter, and while I think Cas is a jerk, at least this time he was honest. Not that I like him dissing Sam, but it was far better than his, "Sam is my friend." after he let Sam out of the cage, then let him take full blame.

I need to rewatch, because some of you saw things I didn't, but I think that is because I've ... not been glued as in years past. Frankly, the first two episodes bored me, and this was just a hair above that.

Had this been my first glimpse of Supernatural, I would never had stopped except to say, "What hunks..." as I changed the channel.
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markie
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I liked this esp for obvious reasons..

But I have reached saturation point now with Dean,s pov and it doesnt look to get any better..

Boy it has been a while since I posted here :D
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Scifidiva
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You're Invited Too, Grumpy!
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fandrea,Oct 13 2010
06:47 PM
That's interesting I totally forgot the weird Campbell bunch. *blush* But guess Castiel doesn't have a connection to them or he doesn't think the two are related? :huh:

He probably didn't think it concerned heaven though, otherwise he would have answered Sam's call.


I assume he would know Sam and Samuel Campbell were related because he sent Dean back into the past to see what the angels knew about Sam, and Dean ended up at the Campbell’s. Cas knew or seemed to know that Mary Campbell was the original “deal maker” with Azazel. I agree, though, about Castiel not be concerned and I put forward the idea that Castiel knew that SAM got out of the cage somehow, he didn’t seem worried that Sam was still Lucifer!Sam and that’s why he wasn’t too interested/was too busy with other matters than in responding to Sam’s prayers.

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I do think Raphale and his apoc-pals have to do something with bringing Sam back, they need Lucifers vessel topside afterall.

Could be, though how “they” could resurrect Sam and leave Luci and Mikey still in the cage stumps me – unless the intriguing theory of Lucifer’s cage was designed to hold “angels” but not human bodies or souls is true. <Then step 2 would be freeing Lucifer (and Michael’s) angel forms to re-take their vessels>. Maybe Sam’s body/soul and Adam’s (assuming that Adam wouldn’t give permission to Michael unless his soul was freed to go to Heaven with his mother and “Adam” truly “couldn’t come to the phone” in Swan Song because Adam’s soul had already “left” [like Ruby did when she possessed Coma Girl – she “walked in” when the spirit moved on]) was in imprisoned in 9th Circle of Hell but “Outside” the Cage.

Very slightly OT, Percysowner on the CW board advanced the idea that the “Boy King” Sam had abdicated to Crowley the Hell Throne that was his “right” as Lucifer’s vessel in exchange for freedom, making Crowley a part of how Sam got out. If Sam’s abdication could be construed as “a deal” then Crowley could have resurrected Sam. But I think only if Sam’s body/soul was outside the cage; I don’t think Crowley is powerful enough on his own to separate Sam’s soul from Lucifer if “he” was still inside the cage. (And as part of the "Deal", Sam's brain was windexed, assuming demons have that power and we've seen them exhibit that ability on the show - so likely another "angel" player is involved, maybe Raphael, maybe Death).

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And I was also surprised that Castiel just let Balty go like that and with all the weapons no less! Later it's going to bite then in the butt, I am sure...

This properly goes in WAB, but after 6.04’s “Crowley’s disposition” with Sam saying virtually the same thing as Castiel did, I’m pretty sure we were supposed to see the parallel between Sam’s and Castiel’s actions. Maybe Sam was just grateful to Crowley for helping the boys and Bobby in the past, as well as ripping up Bobby's "contract" and leaving his legs healed.

Maybe New!Sam sees some strategic value in having the "King of Hell" in HIS debt for all that Crowley blew off the "Moose's assistance".
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