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| Episode 6.07 “Family Matters”; Episode discussion and rating poll | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 5 2010, 11:14 AM (290 Views) | |
| Scifidiva | Nov 5 2010, 11:14 AM Post #1 |
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You're Invited Too, Grumpy!
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Official CW Desciption: “SUPERNATURAL” - “Family Matters” DOES SAMUEL HAVE A SECRET? — Dean (Jensen Ackles) becomes suspicious of Samuel’s (guest star Mitch Pileggi) motives, but Sam isn’t sold on the idea that their grandfather is doing anything wrong. The brothers go along on a hunt with Samuel and the other Campbells, but things go terribly awry. Guy Bee directed the episode written by Andrew Dabb & Daniel Loflin (#607). Enjoy the episode and please rate and discuss |
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| Scifidiva | Nov 5 2010, 11:56 PM Post #2 |
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You're Invited Too, Grumpy!
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Awesome from start to finish! Most exciting episode of the season. Some fans called Samuel working for Crowley AND him owning Sam’s soul… for them. This post is “stream of consciousness” order and is not chronological (or coherent ). I was shocked to see Crowley in this episode because his name (Mark S) was not in the opening credits. Good job show for surprising me! I expected whoever resurrected Samuel did so because he was an uberhunter with centuries of hunter knowledge passed down to him. If you want to hunt "Bambi" any experienced hunter will do but if you want to hunt a man-eating lion- tiger-croc or komodo dragon you want a Master Hunter and the Alphas are the “King of the Beasts”. Sam got loose from his ropes; I expected that since the Winchesters are both good at Houdini–ing out of being bound, but Sam’s saying the panic room wouldn’t hold him made me go h'mmm. I’m still a little iffy on Crowley’s having sufficient supernatural mojo to pull Samuel “down” without Heaven’s cooperation PLUS open Lucifer’s cage, resurrect Sam’s body and leave his soul behind in the cage for Lu and Mike to do their worst on Sam’s soul. As Crowley said “I can imagine a lot of things…”. I highly doubt Sam’s soul is being treated to tea and crumpets or being worship as a “god” (but I can’t entirely dismiss the possibility either). The way I rationalize Crowley’s having the “juice” to open the cage is that Crowley’s not only King of Hell now, he’s more powerful than Azazel because he has all the “power of souls” that have already been cashed in plus the souls on whom he holds “markers” (like Bobby’s – formerly). If you think of souls as energy, he likely had the power to open the cage, hold Lu and Mike down and extra some of Sam’s DNA or cells left in the cage and create a new Sam body from it. Or something like that. I was right about using Sam’s soul as leverage over Sam (and Dean) but I think for Samuel to agree to be Crowley’s “sucker” there might possibly be more at stake than freeing Sam’s soul. Possibly Crowley soul-napped Mary and John’s souls, too, since Ash (DSOTM) said he’d been looking them but couldn’t find them. If Crowley’s been working a “long con” with the Winchesters to eventually control Hell that’s a move he could have made. So Samuel knew Crowley “had” Sam’s soul (I think) and didn’t allow Sam full access to his retreat, yet still questioned Sam on his behavior; I don’t fully understand that. The question of where soulless “monsters” go has been answered – they go to Purgatory – and Crowley wants to know “where it is” so he can expand his domain. Even the Alphas have their own progenitors – their “mothers” (or Mother, I have to re-watch). I love that Sam and Dean are working together again in spite of Sam’s soulless state and loved the con that Sam pulled on Samuel even though Dean said 60/40 on whether Sam would rejoin him and even though they were eventually "caught spying" by the Alpha himself; it’s a start for their renewed partnership. The alpha vamp was super creepy and I wonder what he wanted to turn Sam for; Sam was already soulless and as such sort of like an animal. I assume the humans turned by other vamps originally possessed souls and would go to Purgatory after death. Would Soulless!Sam be a Super!Vamp, and close to an Alpha himself? Was the Alpha!Vamp looking for a general to lead it’s army and another question – are all the alpha armies under one supreme leader? If so, who is their leader because it's not Crowley. Could it be Raphael... or even Castiel (one or more of his questionable things)? Samuel is not so really bad after all – yes, he’s kept major secrets, but he’s still a hunter at the end of the day, but accepts being leashed, likely, (my theory) because his loved ones souls are being held hostage. The Winchesters have to accept the leash, too, though Sam wanted to kill Samuel because that was the logical thing to do to someone who essentially “sold you out”, but Dean stopped him, likely because they are 1) family and 2) they don’t know the repercussions to Sam’s soul, Sam’s body or Dean. Once they get Sam’s soul back I hope Sam uses his demon killing powers on Crowley (hey, I’m an optimist ) to take Crowley out for good (but not too soon, because I love Mark S/Crowley). Christian being possessed since the “beginning of this” was an amazing, unexpected twist! It was logical for Crowley to have a spy within the Campbell compound to keep on eye his investments (Samuel and the hunt for the alphas). I’m glad he’s not “dead” dead because I’d love to Corin Nemec again. I liked Gwen in this episode; the show seems to be portraying her as very socially awkward rather than intentionally malicious. I liked the way she apologized to Dean and expressed frustration at being out of the center of the action at the Alpha Vamp’s “lair” and then hesitated to follow Samuel’s order in their last scene; she’s not just a mindless follower. |
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| Mikiya | Nov 6 2010, 05:01 AM Post #3 |
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Oh, Eat Me, No Wait, You Actually Might
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I'm copy-pasting what I wrote on the other board here: The only thing I'm taking comfort in at the moment is that Sam doesn't feel anything, that he doesn't feel how much Dean's trusting or not trusting him and all those little comments that have me up the wall could hurt him if he had his soul. All in all I kind of liked it, take Dean out of the pic and I love it. Awesome lines in there ("So you two know each other?" -- "Not in the biblical sense..." had me LAUGHING) and Crowley's appeareance would have surprised me a lot if I hadn't read the episode discussion before watching. I'm not buying this "I'm now the strongest thing there is out there and can just pop Sam's soul in whenever I want", I think it'll take more than that, but him as the big baddie? AWESOME, love that character! What else... Oh, yeah, blaming Sam for having no instincts when you know what's wrong with him and calling him on all decissions he makes... Really, Dean? How low can you go? I'm not even sorry about it, Dean Winchester, for me, is the truly soulless man in that picture, not Sam. The way he (Dean) shows again and again he's got no compassion for his brother at all makes him the biggest failure at a big brother I've ever seen. Imagine the situation was reversed... You think Sam would let Dean down like that? Rated it "pretty good" for Crowley alone. |
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| tammitam | Nov 6 2010, 09:36 AM Post #4 |
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Out of the Fire and Back in the Frying Pan
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I honestly don't think Dean was saying it as a bad thing. He said, "Trust me, you have no instincts." Because he KNEW that Sam couldn't tell. And, he trusted Sam, despite what he said. Sorry, I just can't hate Dean, and refuse to bash him. Not to say I like all his actions, but honestly, I haven't liked all of Sam's either. As for this episode, I LOVED it. Simply awesome!!! More later. |
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| Mikiya | Nov 6 2010, 10:11 AM Post #5 |
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Oh, Eat Me, No Wait, You Actually Might
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I'm done with Dean. Like completely done, I am no longer interested in that character and I'm no longer giving him the benefit of any doubt. But, you are right, I won't bash him, I'll keep my mouth shut about him. Doesn't change what I think or wrote about him, but I won't bother people who can still find things to love about him with my opinion because I know how hard it is to read something like that about people you like. |
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| Irishgirl | Nov 6 2010, 10:50 AM Post #6 |
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A Big, Steamy Pile of Nothing
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This makes me think that Christian didn't learn about Dean's time in hell from Sam. It's probably common knowledge among demons that Dean tortured souls while in hell. I loved this episode from start to finish. It was hard to watch Sam get probed like that, but it was necessary. At least he was healed after it.
I saw thinking something similar,but I think it maybe Mary and Deana's souls. I think that's Sampa's motive for working for Crowley. Like perhaps, their souls are in purgatory and Crowley has promised to release then once he has control over the place.. |
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| Spoilerwolf | Nov 6 2010, 11:56 AM Post #7 |
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A Big, Steamy Pile of Nothing
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I rated this episode 'pretty good'. Like Mikiya, I had issues with Dean for most of the episode (and will continue to have issues with him in 4x08 if the promo is any indication...) but for the most part, I LOVED Sam. And I felt sorry for him. With the exception of Castiel, pretty much EVERYONE had the same reaction to his not having a soul - confusion, disgust, and fear. I'm just glad Sam can't emotionally reason with that. I don't think Crowley owns Sam's soul - I think it's PURE manipulation on Crowley's part - a way to get leverage, because the one who DOES have it hasn't shown up yet *coughDeathcough* - BUT... that's only my speculation. I have a real hard time believing Crowley has the 'juice' to bring Sam up, sans a soul. Real hard time buying that. Overall, good episode. The L!S girl in me squee'ed in several spots (the beginning and near the end) and I 'felt' that sense of empathy for Sam in this episode - as I think we were 'supposed' to feel. |
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| tammitam | Nov 6 2010, 12:59 PM Post #8 |
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Out of the Fire and Back in the Frying Pan
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Oh I wasn't asking you to change, or even not voice your opinion ... just stating my own. We are all entitled to think and feel what we do, it's what makes us all unique!
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| tammitam | Nov 6 2010, 01:03 PM Post #9 |
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Out of the Fire and Back in the Frying Pan
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I agree with this, after all, why didn't he pull the "I've got your soul" card when they were going to torch his bones? I hope your speculation is correct, because I adored Death ... he's Frawesome!!!!! |
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| Mikiya | Nov 6 2010, 01:47 PM Post #10 |
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Oh, Eat Me, No Wait, You Actually Might
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Oh, hun, I know that, and I didn't read it this way. If this fandom has taught me anything then how much it hurts to hear/read other people bash characters that I love and I don't want to be a person who does that. I still love Dean, btw, the Dean I fell in love with in the beginning. I don't care at all for the latest version though. |
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| Scifidiva | Nov 6 2010, 07:47 PM Post #11 |
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You're Invited Too, Grumpy!
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This is a long, semi-rambling reply to all of you gals: Jess and Tammi: That’s why I said “I’m iffy” on Crowley having the juice to pull out resurrect Sam’s bod, and leave his soul in the cage. My money has always been on Death being the entity strong enough outside of God to pull Sam out, “reap” his soul (or hold his soul hostage) and resurrect his body, to have the perfect animal to hunt down monsters. (The alternative is “Chuck” and “Chuck” is keeping Sam’s soul shiny and clean and out of the Cage, but that’s a more disagreeable solution because Sam’s re-souling would have little emotional impact since “Chuck” probably “windexed” it). Yes, you’re right, Tammi, Crowley wouldn’t treat Sam so dismissively when Sam said “A deal’s a deal” (I really think that Sam was referring to Bobby’s deal with Crowley); to think otherwise would mean that Sam is lying his pretty fanny off when he says repeatedly that he doesn’t know “who got him out” and I don’t believe that. If Sam knew that Crowley literally owned his soul (and possibly he DOES if he made his own deal with Death) Sam would hold over Crowley’s bones as his own threat, even though that would have been redundant in the episode. So going with the supposition that Crowley and Death are working together it makes sense that Crowley would want to expand his empire to annex Purgatory, but what does Death gain from this arrangement? Maybe Reapers don’t know the location of Purgatory either; they just know the direction to Heaven and Hell. Maybe Death wants the Alphas captured for his own reasons; if they’re building armies, maybe he wants “Soulless Boy” to lead them against “whom”? (Heaven, Earth?). Death could either let Crowley keep Sam’s soul as part of the deal or Death could keep Sam’s (powerful) soul if he wants his own “weapons” or if the Reapers are building their own army powered by souls they’re no longer turning over to Heaven or Hell. But, arrgh, if not Death, who is Crowley partnered with that has the juice to pull Samuel out of Heaven without a human making a deal? Raphael could do it (bring Samuel back) but angels probably know where Purgatory is located; maybe (I’ve read this on several forums), Balthazar and Crowley are working together and Balty used one of heaven’s nukes to open the cage and “do something” to Lu and Mike long enough to get a little of Sam’s genetic material to resurrect his body but leave his soul still caged. Crowley gets the location of Purgatory and Balty gets Sam’s soul? If it’s Raphael + Crowley, Rafe could use soulless boy to resume the apocalypse (and release Luci later [and Mike – unless he’s mad at Michael for not finishing the job and wants to take Mike’s place]) but what is he waiting to release Lucifer for? Until Rafe has suffient “heaven’s weaponry” so he's confident that he can defeat Lucifer? (As his side of the deal, Rafe could agree to Crowley keeping Sam’s soul.) Why waste then time on fighting a civil war in Heaven when his efforts would be better spent tracking down Balthazar and seizing his stash? I think Balty is “on the lam” from Heaven and while he his cache of Heaven’s weapons I also don’t think he has the juice to pull Samuel down and resurrect him because as with S5 Castiel he’s likely “cut off from Heaven’s power”. I can’t make any combination of Crowley + Death and/or Crowley + “Angel” fit seamlessly together without more information (episodes); but we may just have to take Crowley’s “strength” at face value and accept that he’s responsible for all the actions he’s boasting about because I find no flaw in his motives (get Alphas – get location of Purgatory – build summer palace). Irishgirl: It may not be Deanna (I think her soul is safe in Heaven), but I was rethinking this last night and you may well be right, only both “John and Mary” are in Purgatory. Samuel would definitely be truthful when he told Dean that he was working with Crowley for his reasons and that could be the rescue of “John & Mary” and their safe passage to Heaven. Their “spirits” could both be technically considered “freaks” and therefore in Purgatory. Mary’s spirit destroyed itself going after the poltergeist and John’s soul “climbed out of Hell” on it’s own; his spirit disappeared into a combination of “smoke + light” and I recall posting on the CW Board that this could mean his spirit was in “Purgatory”. I also posted (during S2) that both Mary and Jess died on November 2 which on the Catholic Calendar is “All Souls Day” and is the “Feast Day” when the living pray for the souls of the souls who are in Purgatory to be purified so they are accepted into Heaven, and this date was not arbitrarily chosen. But I was a newbie and I was basically ignored. I like the idea, Irishgirl, that Samuel has a highly personal interest in finding Purgatory because he “thinks/knows” that John/Mary and possibly Deanna’s essences/souls are there and isn’t going to tell Sam and Dean until he’s certain that he can free “them”. Yes, I agree that Christian being possessed by a demon might give Sam an “out” if “you” believed Sam spilled the beans in the first place – I’d have to look at the scene again. IIRC, there were several Campbell’s including Samuel there, besides Sam and Dean and I don’t recall any of them being shocked at what Christian said. Then again, Samuel was in Heaven, and he could have learned who broke the First Seal and why/how that way, if nfo pertaining to “who started the apocalypse” entered the consciousness of the souls there. Jess and Mikiya: I revoked Dean’s “Bestest Big Brother Card” in S4.01 the moment he started complaining to Sam about “douching up” HIS baby and saying the “Smarter brother is back in town” because neither statement had anything obvious to do with Dean’s PSTD. He was well on the way to being completely restored in my good graces in SS. Now he’s “kind of back” to his S4/5 “self-righteous” ways but with a twist that started when the writers decided to “pull Sam out” and not have him tell Dean for “a year”, then doing suspicious things including the horror of allowing Dean to be turned into a Vampire. Then repeatedly lying – again – about many things. “Soulless Sam” is driven by logic (strategy) and memory (Family = Dean, Family = Trustworthy, Grandpa Sam [and the Campbell Clan] = Family, therefore Trustworthy). Dean is correct when he says that Sam has no instincts, no spidey senses to tingle, because instinct comes from emotions. Nevertheless I was very irritated at some of Dean’s behavior in the first part of the episode. <As a relevant aside I was quite pleased that Dean attempted to torture the alpha vamp, too "Righteous Man" my ***>Dean has a history of passive-aggressive behavior towards Sam and I’m not going to readily forgive him for the ferocity of the punches he rained down on Sam in YCHTT; he went way beyond subduing Sam for examination. He’s still really pissed that “Sam” not only allowed him to be turned, he lied right to his face about “having his back”, resisted Verita’s curse and then was able to lie to Veritas’ herself which was impossible for a “human” to do. I’m surprised Dean didn’t just kill Sam with the knife when he had the chance and I think there were two reasons why he didn’t 1) on the off chance that it was Sam and something was just really wrong with him and 2) if it wasn’t “Sam” but it could tell him where Real!Sam was; Castiel could help in either case because he promised Dean that he would help find out what was wrong with Sam. I realize we were probably hoping for more in a way of an apology from Dean when Cas gave Dean and Sam the unhappy news but I think Dean is still so angry with Sam that asking Castiel “to fix him” was a close as an apology we’ll get. Jess, about the promo for 6.08 – In the promos for 6.02 (TAAHM), 6.06 (YCHTT) and now 6.08 - the word “Friday” has flipped between Friday and “Firday”; as one of this season’s themes “Nothing is as it seems” perhaps the 6.02 promo was a clue that Christian is actually possessed by a demon and that's why he brought up the fact that Dean tortured souls in Hell, the clue for (6.06/6.07) Sam is that Sam has no soul and clue for next Friday is that Crowley doesn’t own Sam’s soul and just says he does (as you said) to keep Samuel and the boys on a leash. Just a theory. |
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Enjoy the episode and please rate and discuss



for them.
).
) to take Crowley out for good (but not too soon, because I love Mark S/Crowley). 
that Dean attempted to torture the alpha vamp, too "Righteous Man" my ***>
3:15 AM Jul 11