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| Combined Episodes 6.21-6.22 poll; Episodes’ discussion and rating poll | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 20 2011, 03:23 PM (300 Views) | |
| Scifidiva | May 20 2011, 03:23 PM Post #1 |
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You're Invited Too, Grumpy!
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Tammi and I decided to combine polls for the final two episodes and simplify the ratings’ choices. As always watch both episodes back to back if you can and choose the most appropriate choice. You are welcome to provide more detail in your discussion. Episode 6.21 “Let it Bleed” DEAN'S WORST NIGHTMARE COMES TRUE - A demon kidnaps Ben (guest star Nicholas Elia) and Lisa (guest star Cindy Sampson) to get to Dean (Jensen Ackles). Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean are forced to join with an unlikely ally to free them. John Showalter directed the episode written by Sera Gamble. Followed by the S6 Finale of 6.22 “The Man who knew too much” EXECUTIVE PRODUCER ERIC KRIPKE PENS THE SEASON FINALE - The wall comes down in Sam's (Jared Padalecki) head and all hell breaks loose. Dean (Jensen Ackles) and Bobby (Jim Beaver) are, for once, at a total loss on how to help him and are forced to stand by and do nothing while Sam breaks. The battle for heaven comes to a head. Robert Singer directed the episode written by Eric Kripke.. Enjoy both episodes and discuss! Thankfully we have a another hellatus to agonize over now |
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| tammitam | May 20 2011, 09:03 PM Post #2 |
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Out of the Fire and Back in the Frying Pan
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I put loved both, because for the most part I did ... however ... the end was ... eh, I dunno, I'm not sure I like how it ended ... or how they never ever once showed what Sam went through in hell. I'll have to mull over what I'm feeling and write more later. |
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| Irishgirl | May 21 2011, 11:19 AM Post #3 |
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A Big, Steamy Pile of Nothing
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I loved both episodes. In the first one, it was sad that Lisa and Ben don't remember Dean. He has lost so much over the years and now he loses them too. But I understand why Dean did it. He just wants to keep them safe. We got three Sams for the price of one last night. I have to say that Jared really knocked it out of the park in the second episode. |
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| tammitam | May 21 2011, 11:49 AM Post #4 |
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Out of the Fire and Back in the Frying Pan
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ITA! I just wish they had shown more of Hell rather than what he did while soulless. And the end bothered me ... a lot. |
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| Anna | May 21 2011, 02:50 PM Post #5 |
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I Had a Crappy Guidance Counselor
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But when we get a season 7 we'll get a lot of hell, I bet. I agree, I'd hoped for more of that too but what we got-amazing! Sam forcing himself towards Dean and Bobby at the end with his wall breaking down, this amazing test of strength-incredible. Again they show how strong Sam can be. Wow! Also episode 21...I guess it was a good ending for Lisa and Ben but it was so sad... |
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| tammitam | May 21 2011, 03:15 PM Post #6 |
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Out of the Fire and Back in the Frying Pan
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I was just so glad to see them go! And I'd rather them never know Dean ... than to hate him. Jared's acting in this was AMAZING ... truly. Dean about broke my heart when he left the note and the gun for Sam. It was so nice to see the brothers back as brothers! It's about time!!!!! |
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| Scifidiva | May 22 2011, 10:41 PM Post #7 |
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You're Invited Too, Grumpy!
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I'll be back tomorrow sometime with a more thorough post but I forgot a category that is midway between "Love/like one and dislike the other" and that would be phrased something like "Love/Like both but dislike some scenes" because that's how I'd honestly rate 6.21 and 6.22 to a lesser extent (I haven't rated yet). Tammi, is it possible for a voter to change their vote if they want to (by deleting their current vote?). Do any voters want to if I add that option? Yes, I agree Tammi and Anna; I was relieved to see Lisa & Ben just go. I guess all we can say for Dean at this time " 'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all". Yes, I also agree with Sam - he knows first hand how it feels to have one's mind tampered with and knows Dean was furious with Michael!John for erasing young!John and Mary's memories in TSRTS. So Dean was being somewhat selfish again - choosing not to live with L&B's negative feelings yet unselfish in letting them move on with their lives while Dean remembered them. Just thank our lucky stars that Dean wasn't madly in love with Lisa and Ben was not his child. And I guess that the nasty things that go bump in the night will just leave L&B alone because the show has a tendency to do that - look how many "crime scenes" have Dean and Sam's fingerprints all over them and they never get caught because they "died" in JiB. |
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| tammitam | May 23 2011, 05:44 PM Post #8 |
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Out of the Fire and Back in the Frying Pan
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I don't think votes can be recast unless the entire thread is deleted. |
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| Scifidiva | May 24 2011, 12:35 AM Post #9 |
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You're Invited Too, Grumpy!
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I don't want to do that so I'll just choose the harsher overall rating and explain a lot . The day got from me but I have my post around 2/3 done and should have it ready sometime tomorrow.
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| Scifidiva | May 24 2011, 07:03 PM Post #10 |
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You're Invited Too, Grumpy!
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My tome poem : I voted "Loved or liked one and disliked the other" with major qualifiers. I loved or liked some of 6.21 and disliked other parts. I loved 6.22 with some niggling questions. LIB Liked all the parts of the hunt for what happened at HP Lovecraft’s party Loved that the show brought Lovecraft into SPN in the first place and fit really into the Purgatory story because it was believable that “Lovecraft” and his guests had managed to open a door and thought they failed but “Something” came through. And that “something” possessed to servant, tragically for the young son, who then proceeded to track down and kill everyone at the party for the sole reason of preventing the “door” from being opened again. And – good job show because I didn’t see it coming – that “something” was Bobby’s friend and former lover, Dr. Visyac. I loved all the Investigator!Bobby parts. I fully expected Crowley was behind L&B’s kidnapping as a ploy to hogtie D&S, but fully realized that D would never lay down quietly but D (&S) would be kept busy looking for L&B. Although I loathe the L&B sl (and to a lesser extent Castiel) I liked that Sam put aside his questions about Cas as relating to his own “botched” rescue, to pray for Cas’s help in finding L&B over Dean’s objections. That’s consistent with Sam’s character having true reverence for Cas and that he realizes there’s a difference between being pals and praying for the aid of a higher being. What I didn’t like (besides Cas’s “spying”) is that instead of directly trying to find L&B himself Cas wasted valuable time confronting Crowley with his useless posturing. I liked that Balthazar helped the boys to the best of his capacity while being conflicted over betraying his friend. I love all the scenes with Crowley. Logic moment problems that carry over to TMWKNM ---- I get using “souls as weapons/little nuclear reactors” but ….. TBC Onto the WTF parts: ---- Where did Dean find those demons to torture for information? I don’t think I saw any summoning paraphernalia and in summoning any supernatural entity you not only have to have the right ritual but you have to have the proper sigil for the entity summoned. I don’t think those “stunt demons” are well known enough for the boys to know their sigils. The parts I disliked: ---- Sam immediately put of commission so Dean had to deal with the whole mess that is L&B ---- Demon!Lisa – what a shocker :rolleyes: ! Not that CS didn’t do a credible job of portraying a demon but the dialog was unbelievably trite right down to the totally expected shanking herself. ---- For someone who had never shot a gun before B handled the shotgun like a pro ---- Did I mention Sam being sidelined – again? I just loathe L&B so much that I can’t seem to find it in myself to care about Dean’s emotional pain at losing them. I feel the L&B sl should have been ended no later than M3TR with a more positive ending for Dean but he still could have asked Cas to wipe their memories though I still feel it was a selfish thing to do on Dean’s part. TMWKTM I really loved 6.22 except for a few WTF minutes at the end (and no, it’s not that Cas proclaimed the new, better “God” per se.) I loved, loved, loved every minute of Sam’s battle to put himself together but as with many fans I wanted much more than we were given. I loved, loved the Rolling Stones song “Play with Fire” – it must have cost a pretty penny to use. In fact there has been more great music in the last third of the season (well known songs, that is) than I recall all of S5 having. It was a perfect song for both Coma!Sam and awesome, worried BigBro!Dean. If you get “uppity” around the Winchesters you will go down hard. (Not that they won’t help you get up again). The timing of song when Dean shined the light into Coma!Sam’s eye was perfection. About Robin: http://www.shamanicjourney.com/article/608...wth-and-renewal Symbol of growth and renewal The episode never named the bartender – Hell!Memory Sam only referred to her as “that bartender”. I’m going as some fans do with calling “Robin” as a deliberate name choice on EK’s part. I changed my mind on what “Robin” meant to “Sam” beyond the fact that she was callously murdered by Soulless!Sam. Originally I thought she was there to serve as guide for part of “Sam’s journey” to wholeness (renewal) but now I think as a “symbol” Robin represents “Sam’s internal conflict” because others observed Robin as putting up barriers (go to the ER, have a bad feeling about this, etc.) between remaining “jello” in the panic room and confronting his soulless memories and his Hell memories and accepting (growing and renewing) them as the entirety of the “beautiful essence of Sam”. It takes a strong person to attempt to integrate the separate pieces and Sam’s not done by a long shot but his primary drive in putting humpty dumpty back quickly as best as he was able for the present was to “not leave his brother alone”. As with many other fans I hope that the show is not done with Sam’s Hell, and we will continue to get some fallout/flashbacks or “Impala speeches” to Dean (and Bobby?) in S7, although I think we may be done with Soulless!Sam for now unless Sam runs into more victims as Bobby and Dean have already forgiven him. Moving on: I loved Dean (and Bobby) so much in this episode. Dean wouldn’t leave Sam until they had to try and stop Cas and Crowley from opening Purgatory. Balthazar stepped up to help and got stabbed in the back (and killed?) in attempt to provide Dean & Bobby some intel without completely betraying his friend. I loved every scene in both episodes with Crowley in them and am so glad that Cas-god allowed him to leave and told Raphael that he had plans for Crowley. That virtually guarantees that Crowley will be back in S7 as Mark Sheppard told the interviewers at WonderCon he wanted to. There’s a small possibility that Balthazar could be back as well as fans pointed out we never saw his “angel wings shadow” because the scene to the exterior of the building glowing. So he could have tricked Castiel, sensing a trap, and created a “double” as Gabriel did on several occasions. It’s not a certainty that Balty will be in S7, but Seb Roche is eager to return and the show seemed to leave the possibility open. Those “Weapons of Heaven” could come in handy against Cas-god, if the Winchesters and Bobby don’t manage to talk Cas down. Dean & Bobby & Baby in the very intense scene when the demons struck and overturned the impala– made of awesome! Great job show! The scene where Sam discovered the overturned impala while fighting with hell flashes – heartbreaking. Nothing was going to stop Sam from finding his brother and Bobby and facing the bad stuff together (with a twist) because he managed to get behind Cas and stab him with the Angel sword while Dean was distracting Cas-god with his talk of them being brothers, family. Dean, Sam and Bobby were shocked because Cas didn’t die and I’m not so sure Cas-god wasn’t fully aware of Sam’s sneaking up and didn’t care because he knew that Sam couldn’t harm him. Saving Dean (and Bobby) is a priority for Sam – but Sam’s always had such reverence for Cas even swallowing the occasions when Cas insulted his character; so did Sam try to kill Cas to save them all, or because Cas tore his wall down or because he learned something (worse) about Cas that was behind his wall? The major logic problem I have with the episode and there are smaller ones is that I can accept “souls” as small nukes, that when collectivized are capable of mass destruction. Cas accepted a loan of 50,000 hell souls from Crowley and kinda flung “them” at Raphael knocking him into “next week”. It’s the “I guess you’ll be the vessel idea” idea that I have a problem with. I think I have a problem with any entity, opening the Purgatory Door and essentially sucking up all the souls like a vacuum cleaner. And truth be told, I think that the Cas-god – while a great idea – gave a very campy, OTT speech and it somewhat detracted from the ending of finale for me. Jared was wonderful in the entire episode and 6.21 (although he was sidelined like a newbie hunter for most of the rescue attempt) and I’ll never know why he doesn’t get more positive media attention. Jensen was great, too, it’s just my loathing for L&B colors my objectivity to his acting in 6.21. Jim Beaver, Misha, Seb and Mark brought their usual A Games and the guest stars did very well. It’s unfortunate that I thought that 6.21 although very good in many scenes had several more flaws than 6.22. |
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| Scifidiva | May 24 2011, 09:13 PM Post #11 |
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You're Invited Too, Grumpy!
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I just read Alice Jester's wonderful (The Winchester Family Business) review of 6.22 and she equates Dean's shining the penlight in Coma!Sam's eye and "Walking/Talking trapped!Sam's veering off the road and finding it's "daytime" rather than "nighttime" to Dean's leading TrappedComa!Sam "into the light". And she further speculates that Dean was checking Sam's pupils earlier when "the cop shined the light in Sam's face". Great analysis - and that's why I don't have a SPN blog because I can't analyze like the better SPN BiBro bloggers do.
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| Anna | May 25 2011, 11:10 AM Post #12 |
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I Had a Crappy Guidance Counselor
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I don't hate Lisa and Ben...I think they made a really good sort of recurring storyline for Dean and it showed a lot about his character. Also I don't think wiping their memories was selfish, they could never have lived a normal life remembering all that. Especially Ben. He killed someone and saw his mother stab herself...I think Dean did all he could. I don't hate them, but I hope they don't come back, their part of the story should be finished now. And yes, the scene with Sam finding the Impala is going up there with my favourite ever SPN scenes, it was amazing!!! I hope they don't just blow away all the hell memory stuff in season 7, they have it all set up...but they have ignored stuff like that in the past so I don't know. I liked Let it Bleed enough, but it didn't blow me away, you know? Episode 22 was fantastic... Oh yes, loved Dean caring for Coma!Sam as well. So epically cute...I wanted to cry...seems like too long since there's been any brother moments like that! |
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| Alec/X5-494 | Jun 2 2011, 01:26 PM Post #13 |
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My Daddy Shot Your Daddy in the Head
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Loved both episodes but the end of the second one really bothered me alot. |
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| tammitam | Jun 2 2011, 07:20 PM Post #14 |
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Out of the Fire and Back in the Frying Pan
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Same here Jen ... is was ... blah! I hate the idea of Cas being God, or even Godlike. Not to mention Sam's time in hell is still left unanswered. |
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Enjoy both episodes and discuss! Thankfully we have a another hellatus to agonize over now



. The day got from me but I have my post around 2/3 done and should have it ready sometime tomorrow.

3:15 AM Jul 11