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Picture of Sam Winchester
Topic Started: Jan 8 2014, 12:53 AM (146 Views)
Scifidiva
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Sam W

Look! :wub: SPN cares enough about Sam’s post 9.10 storyline to remind us what he looks like <_< .
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PadalecKitty512
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Yummy!!! :wub:

I still have hope that Sam will have a post-Gadreel storyline. Confirmation and surety, no, hope, yes.
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Scifidiva
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PadalecKitty512,Jan 8 2014
09:34 AM
Yummy!!! :wub:

I still have hope that Sam will have a post-Gadreel storyline. Confirmation and surety, no, hope, yes.

I agree... the 'photo' looks 'just edible' :wubble !

And I'd love to agree wholeheartedly with your second statement if only I could think of a rational explanation for dropping 'Sam's demon curing arc' and possibly not replacing the arc with a exciting B storyline.
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tammitam
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Who are we kidding, Sam hasn't had a meaty SL since S1 & 2, you know, back when the show was balanced and John wasn't an abusive asshole and loved Mary.
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tammitam,Jan 10 2014
01:33 PM
Who are we kidding, Sam hasn't had a meaty SL since S1 & 2, you know, back when the show was balanced and John wasn't an abusive asshole and loved Mary.

Yeah and I would include S3, too, when Sam when gradually off the rails in trying to save Dean from the deal; Sam and Dean shared mytharc focus and fairly even POV, too. Lot of strong brother episodes in S3.
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tammitam
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Then he was blamed for everything (including dying!) and shunned...
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tammitam,Jan 12 2014
10:33 AM
Then he was blamed for everything (including dying!) and shunned...

Yes, and Sam's still blamed for things that happened to him that was beyond his control, such as the infamous retcon of S8, that Dean 'blamed Sam' for being resurrected soulless. Now the EDGs and some BiBro fans have in common (though for different reasons) that Sam should quickly get over Dean's cramming a "dick angel' inside him (Dean's own wording for angels in general)to 'heal Sam'. Dean had NO idea 'who' the angel 'really was' until he spoke with Cas and Cas confirmed "Ezekiel" as a good soldier. And of course, Ezekiel was hiding his true identity, blah, blah.

(I'm leaving 'Sam fans' out of this discussion because of course, no Sam, no show and I like this storyline as long as we get decent Sam POV when 'we get Sam back' and that IS part of this issue).

My point is (I actually have one :D ) I think Carver meant fans to question the 'ethics' of Dean's decision more, especially over Dean's tricking Coma!Sam into letting the angel possess him. That's why the scene where Fake!Zeke connects Dean with Coma!Sam's mind is so important. Dean saw 'first hand' that Sam was ready to go with Death and had made provisions that he couldn't be brought back because he was unwilling to imperil other people. Dean couldn't accept Sam's decision so even though he told Fake!Zeke that Sam would rather die than be possessed by anything . ]Dean felt he had the unalienable right to override Coma!Sam's 'informed' decision. That was the point that Fake!Zeke/Sam was making in the storeroom scene of 909 - that again, Dean felt he had the right to 'just take over' Sam's decision processes as if Sam was a young child.

The problem is -IMO - that the DGs and some BiBros - are 100% backing Dean's decision without question - although some 'always complaining DG's' rant that 'Carver hates Dean' and 'Carver threw Dean under the bus' (and at the same backing Dean's decision), also posting that Dean is the only brother who should go off the rails at Fake!Zeke's betrayal and killing Kevin. To 'them' Sam has no cause to feel bad about Kevin's death even though Fake!Zeke used Sam's body to kill Kevin. The 912 synopsis says Dean's still reeling with guilt over Gadreel's killing Kevin but says squat about Sam's emotional state.

The show has a history of painting with same brush all of Dean's 'ethical decisions' as being right and Sam's as coming from negative (wrong) personality traits . 312 - JIB - Dean 'Right' not to kill 'virgin' even though more people died; All of S4 - Dean 'Right' to listen to Angels even though Angels WANTED apocalypse; 421 Dean 'grounded Sam' and said he and Bobby would kill Lilith by themselves - but lookie that would have yielded same result with Lucifer free.

I really think, just as Carver did poorly last season, this season was meant to show fans the mistake of going to extremes to save the other brother would have lasting, negative fallout, and we were meant to question Dean's decision more. I don't think some get this message. I doubt for the remainder of the series one of the brothers will be placed in a position where such as extreme 'rescue' means will be necessary - I think SPN can show the boys' 'canonic co-dependence' in somewhat healthier ways.
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PadalecKitty512
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Quote:
 
My point is (I actually have one  ) I think Carver meant fans to question the 'ethics' of Dean's decision more, especially over Dean's tricking Coma!Sam into letting the angel possess him. That's why the scene where Fake!Zeke connects Dean with Coma!Sam's mind is so important. Dean saw 'first hand' that Sam was ready to go with Death and had made provisions that he couldn't be brought back because he was unwilling to imperil other people. Dean couldn't accept Sam's decision so even though he told Fake!Zeke that Sam would rather die than be possessed by anything . ]Dean felt he had the unalienable right to override Coma!Sam's 'informed' decision. That was the point that Fake!Zeke/Sam was making in the storeroom scene of 909 - that again, Dean felt he had the right to 'just take over' Sam's decision processes as if Sam was a young child.


EXACTLY. This is why, in my opinion as well, Dean needs to be called out on letting Ezekiel/Gadreel into Sam, no matter which one he turned out to be...b/c he essentially tricked Sam into giving away his consent for something he didn't want. It would be like ignoring a loved one's "DNR" request to me, ya know? The love/need aspect toward Sam that Dean had to do this is the understandable part, but it doesn't and shouldn't whitewash away the part where he once again played God with Sam.

At Cold Oak, I found it more palatable b/c Sam's death was so sudden - Dean had had no time to prepare himself, no idea where to turn, and there was absolutely no indication that Sam had been ready to go...all bets are that he wasn't! Plus, at that time Dean didn't believe in Heaven so to him, despite Sam's belief, Sam had not "gone on to a better place"...was not "at peace". So, even tho Dean's decision that time wasn't 100% ethical, at least it was more understandable than his decision this time - when Sam had said himself that he WAS ready to go, and why he was ready.

However, it doesn't surprise me that fandom majority is excusing Dean and asserting that Sam should immediately "get over" what Dean did...not at all. Which brings me to this...

Quote:
 
The show has a history of painting with same brush all of Dean's 'ethical decisions' as being right and Sam's as coming from negative (wrong) personality traits . 312 - JIB - Dean 'Right' not to kill 'virgin' even though more people died; All of S4 - Dean 'Right' to listen to Angels even though Angels WANTED apocalypse; 421 Dean 'grounded Sam' and said he and Bobby would kill Lilith by themselves - but lookie that would have yielded same result with Lucifer free.


Absolutely, and that's far from all of them! Other outstanding examples I think of are how in earlier seasons when Dean had John on a pedestal, Dean was the "good son" and Sam was the "rebellious one"...but as soon as Dean started criticizing John (over some of the same things Sam had been) and took him off that pedestal, well, John became the "bad father", Dean the (practically) "abused son"...but Sam in his viewing of John in a new light, never took Dean's place as the good son! When HE agreed with John's way (most notably in Jump the Shark), it was wrong.

Another huge example - Sam vs. Dean in "wanting normal". Or as I now like to call, "Stanford vs. Sonny's". Bad Boys really sealed the deal on this double-standard...Dean wanting to ditch his fam--err, I mean...make a life for himself in staying behind at Sonny's but not doing so was a tragedy deserving of tears and the utmost sympathy and outrage at John for being a jerk (and even some at Sam for being Dean's 'ball and chain'). But Sam going to Stanford, taking the opportunity that he'd worked hard for and earned, WAS absolutely seen as ditching his family, NOTHING doing about 'making a life for himself' and no acknowledgement that Sam likely didn't intend to permanently cut ties until John 'ultimatum-ed' him into it...what has the focus been on involving the Stanford issue from day one? How much it hurt DEAN, and how it was a betrayal by Sam (who I guess wasn't hurt at all himself)...even five seasons after its first mention it was portrayed as such!!! And that has really never changed.

And there are more...Sam gets manipulated by Ruby: he's condemned, she's evil--Dean gets manipulated by Castiel: he's excused, then Castiel is excused and turns out good! Sam befriends and trusts Amy: he is ultimately proved 'wrong', she's murdered by Dean as just another killing of a monster--Dean befriends and trusts Benny: he is ultimately proved right, Benny sacrifices his life as a martyr to the cause of rescuing Sam from Purgatory! Sam is whammied by Ellicott/the siren and tries to shoot Dean/says hurtful things to Dean: fandom explodes with outrage--Dean is whammied by the coin/siren and tries to kill Sam both times/says hurtful things to Sam: reaction is well, it was the coin/siren controlling him and what Sam did to him was worse! Honestly...the only major conflicts I can think of b/t them that Sam turned out concretely RIGHT about was when he defended Lenore from Dean and suspected Gordon was bad news, and when Sam believed in a Dean who'd given up in "Point of No Return". Maybe also when Sam knew it wasn't really John talking to Dean in Long Distance Caller, but that didn't really have ramifications beyond the one episode like the other two. That's honestly all I can think of, tho...

But now we come to this thing with Gadreel, and like I said, not surprised at these typical reactions. I figure the bi-bro ppl just don't want Sam and Dean to be fighting again if Sam's mad at Dean, and I TOTALLY understand want of no more fighting...BUT, at the same time I won't ignore that there needs to be equality and fair balance b/t Sam and Dean and that just as Dean had time and space to air out his anger with Sam over Ruby, Sam deserves the same time to air out his anger with Dean over Gadreel and yes, he deserves to have some - to take issue with how Dean manipulated his consent. It can't just be wiped away with 'but Dean didn't know Ezekiel was really a bad angel, he thought he was saving Sam'...was Sam trusting Ruby ever allowed to be wiped away with 'but he didn't know killing Lilith was Ruby's goal for the reason that it released Lucifer, he thought he was saving Dean and the world'? Heck no! In the aftermath of that, Sam's POV of things (which never excused him but simply defended him by showing where he likely was coming from) was barely even welcome all over the internet, fanfic and forums alike!

But this...they're not just wanting to explain Dean's side of things, it sounds like they actually think Sam should just not take up issue with Dean over anything about this Gadreel-debacle at all. Just suck it up and bury it deep, Sam, like Dean told you to do at the mental hospital...like you've done with Stanford, John's death, never knowing your mother, spending all those months soulless, never being allowed to live a normal life, etc...bury it deep and don't speak of how these topics hurt you b/c they hurt Dean far more!!! And therefore, unlike you, he IS allowed to bare his soul and have and/or express feelings about them. That's the message the show has sent time and time again...and unfortunately that's well-meaning fandom is encouraging with wanting Sam to instantly get over this Gadreel thing. As for the Sam-haters, I don't care in the least what they think about it...I can imagine it's something along the lines of Sam not deserving to feel anything but grateful to Dean for saving his worthless life and apologetic for 'putting Dean thru Kevin's loss' and that Sam is the real guilty party. Such stupid bias isn't even worth considering.

But I hate that bi-broers are jumping on the 'whitewash Dean' bandwagon...to be sure I hate when the boys fight as much as they do, but sometimes at least confrontation is necessary to keep things realistic, balanced, and progressive - and I think that's absolutely the case here. In fact if it doesn't happen, IMO, it'll be the biggest and most ridiculous oversight since 'so devastating it's been...completely ignored!' altered voicemail.
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Scifidiva
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In lieu of my 'planned reply' I'm posting a series of Carver statement links from an interview he recently gave and were posted yesterday; reading them gave me a sinking feeling as far as some of our expectations of how Sam will respond to Dean's tricking Coma!Sam into being possessed to save his life.

Note that only in Clarissa's interview (link #2) does Carver even respond to questions about Sam specifically and the answer he gives is a bit pallid.

The other two articles did not deal with 'anything Sam' at all, just lots of Dean, Cas, Crowley and Gadreel (who will not be played by JP beyond 910 barring some miracle that allows Sam to retain Gad's leftover grace. Carver maddeningly even calls Cas "Luke Skywalker" <_< .

Interview 1
TVLine Interview report

Interview 2
Screenfad report

Interview 3
TV Guide report


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PadalecKitty512
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Wow, if I would've just read the first and third article I would've questioned whether or not Sam was still a main character anymore!!! I seriously wonder why no questions about him from two different interviewers...geez. To be fair tho I did see that the TVG interviewer at least, had not ignored Sam in previous articles, so...that was good to see but I still do wonder why nothing was asked about him.

Not that Carver's answer on the one that DID bring up Sam did any good...all I got out that interview was a whole lot of nothing! He just seemed to kinda talk in circles about Sam's reaction almost. The only thing I did glean from it is that it sounds like you're right...not looking good for Sam having much of a storyline the rest of this season. :lesigh: :lesigh:

Honestly, to read those interviews it sounds like there's going to be a huge amount of focus on Castiel, lots of emotional stuff for Dean, but for Sam...yeah. Got nothing, have no clue what's next for him. I wanted to have more hope than this...but these interviews have diminished a good deal of it, gotta say.
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tammitam
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I read the first blurb of the first article and clicked out:

Dean Winchester is hurting.

Excuse my language, but who the F%&K cares?!!!!!
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tammitam,Jan 16 2014
02:20 PM
I read the first blurb of the first article and clicked out:

Dean Winchester is hurting.

Excuse my language, but who the F%&K cares?!!!!!


Tammi, that's still my reaction and stand by my 'harshing' Dean in the bit I posted about 910. On re-watch the episode as a whole gets much better but I'm intolerant of most of the "poor Dean" scenes and my VERY crude analysis of what Sam told Dean as he told him to "just go" is that Sam was probably thinking "Oh great, Dean, make it all about YOUR guilt feelings - again - not the fact that you lied to me and treated me like a child - again - THAT'S WHAT I'M PISSED ABOUT". (I'm still ruminating over how to interpret that last scene)

Yes, Kitty, barring some miraculous buddy team up between Cas and Sam to locate Gadreel before Dean, it's not looking exceptionally good for Sam having a proactive storyline pretty much of this season. I HOPE that cutting Sam's demon curing arc out of season is not due to Jensen making disgruntled noises over his 'incomplete story arcs' so the SPN PTBs decided to give Dean and Cas all the "A" storyarcs this season, Crowley/Abaddon/Cain and Metatron/Gadreel the "B" arcs with de-angeled!Sam firmly in the C storyline role with rare exceptions. We'll see how 911 shakes out - it will possibly have more Sam POV and Sam potential to be an active hunter.

Carver does talk in the interviews about Cain and his importance to brothers' own direct lineage and hopefully Carver means both brothers and not just Dean; Cain is supposed to be a recurring character so hopefully Sam will interact with him in a future. There's supposedly another ep that will focus on the MoL - that may be more bro balanced - and a Ghostfacers episode, assuming that's not the MoL one; the GF's were never obviously aligned with one brother.

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