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Gun rhetoric
Topic Started: Apr 17 2007, 02:29 AM (402 Views)
Frozenkilt
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Snadden,

Before you go stating your case and spouting the same shit that came straight out of Michael Moore's fat ass, do a google search for "Marc Lepine". Cuz up until today, I believe he was winning for schoolastic mass murders and he is a "countrymen" of yours.

YOU might be too young to remember that, but I sure as shit wasn't.

- Sean
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MaxPower
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Fuck, about 10 years or so ago a guy here in Sudbury turned in his arsonal during a "turn in your illegal guns get off free week".

Motherfucker had over 100 illegal guns, guns that we don't give our soldiers. Some of the more exotic were grenade launchers and a 50 cal, and a M-60. Complete with enough ammo to start a war.

Fact is, its just as easy to get a automatic weapon in Canada as it is in the US.

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Jesse Snadden
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Sean, we normally get along well but yesterday you came off as an opinionated shit! Modifying my posts because it doesn't jive with your views is low.

Your bringing up a single instance Sean! Mass murderers can be found in any corner of the earth, even Montreal, Quebec. Why are murders by firearms happening far more often than any other country, including Canada?

It's obvious to me.

You had that fat twit Dr Phil blabbing about how the US cultivates these mass murderes because of violent video games on CNN last night. He lost all credibility with that statement. We have those fucking video games in Canada and so does the rest of the world.

Trevor, automatic weapons can be found in Canada if you know a contact in the black market (which isn't exactly at every corner of the street). I wouldn't compare the black market with a gun shop. You can get a hunting rifle without any trouble in Canada ... yes... but there's quite a difference. Yet why are the yearly murder tolls so much higher in the US?

Where did the columbine students get their guns? I'm not 100% sure but I bet it was from their parents house. Had they not been lying around there... what would of happened then? Maybe they would have rampaged with the kitchen cutlery... Wouldn't have gone as far.

The only person making sense on CNN last night was the female psychologist (Dr Phil is a joke) as she said she knew someone getting an education in the UK, a country where automatic weapons are much harder to find, during his stay there there were two serial killers who used knives. So those with the personality traits necessary to be mass murderers are everywhere. Put an automatic weapon in their hands and it gets all the bloodier. Could they still find auto weapons in Canada? Yes, but it's much harder to do so as there are far less of them in circulation.

If you've ever taken a security course, you'd know the idea is to discourage and delay, you can never prevent crime completly but you can discourage most of them from happening. Also, under the right circumstances, everyone has the potential to kill, don't kid yourself. If you happen to have a firearm during those right circumstances, than you may very well do something stupid. Obviously a mass murderer is a different animal altogether.


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Frozenkilt
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Jesse, I don't give a tiny rat's ass if my opinion and yours jive. All *I* said was that that thread was not the place. I still mean that. That thread was about a situation I find immeasurably sad and frustrating.

As far as the gun control thing, your first post said that people were going to start blaming Eminem, video games and Marilyn Manson instead of gun laws and the American right to bear arms. My first post here basically said that we have gun laws out the fucking wazoo and it didn't prevent it from happening here 17 years ago.

And the Yanks have had the right to bear arms for about what? 250 years?

And MTV has been around how long? About 25? How have the number of violent crimes with weapons gone up since society started glorifying violence?

Maybe the points about the games, the music, TV and movies shouldn't exactly be dismissed as offhand as everyone thinks. Parents don't raise kids anymore. TV and daycares do. A lot of kids have no moral center because they've never been given one.

This situation has nothing to do with gun laws and everything with the continued decline of society.

- Sean
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Jesse Snadden
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Don't get me wrong here, I think the gunman got off too easy. I think this is terrible and I really thik it sucks for all the families of the victims and the students who did survice will never recover of feel safe at school again.

But my question wasn't answered.

Why is the murder rate so much higher in the USA? As I said, Japanese cops don't need firearms. They have the violent movies and video games. So what gives? Playing Grand Theft Auto doesn't give me any urge to go out on a rampage. Listening to Marilyn Manson or Eminem doesn't make me say... hey I should shoot everyone I see...

People have been murdering since the begining of time. The methods are just getting more dramatic as the weapons we wield get all the more powerful. Mass murderers existed 250 years ago, but they weren't as prolific since all we had were bladed weapons.

As for parents no longer raising their families... that's simplyfing the situation. I was raised properly, as was my girlfriend and most people I know. Not I, nor any of them would do this.

A psychopath just doesn't have the same thought patterns we do and we shouldn't try to understand them. They can see weapons in what we see as ordinary tame objects. My point is, if they happen to get their hands on an automatic weapon, then we get results like VirginiaTech.
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Frozenkilt
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Jesse...he had 2 HANDGUNS. Not automatic weapons. Handguns.

And you think Japan doesn't have it's share of nutbars?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaka_school_massacre

Ok, he didn't use a gun. Big deal. Dead is dead.

And I'm not saying that the parents thing is a definite. But it's one more sign of the moral rot that is in western civilization. Kids that are slightly imbalanced or who, 50 years ago would have been "wild" and then their parents would have taken far more extreme measures than we're allowed now to "straighten them out", go undetected.

Murder-suicides show up so often now it's like there's a recipe out there. "Ok, I have to kill as many as I can and when the cops come in, I blow my own head off."

I don't believe in guns. I really don't. But I don't believe in gun control, either. Because the only people that gun laws impede are the law-abiding.

- Sean
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MaxPower
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Why is the murder rate so much higher in the USA?

IIRC India has more murders then the US, and South Africa is on par with the US.
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Jesse Snadden
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Jesse...he had 2 HANDGUNS. Not automatic weapons. Handguns.

And you think Japan doesn't have it's share of nutbars?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaka_school_massacre

Ok, he didn't use a gun. Big deal. Dead is dead.


Handguns can still be automatic or semi-automatic Sean.

Nice of you to google search exceptions in Japan just to try and fight my points. I said mass murderers are everywhere, still, it's no where near what the USA is experiencing.

And do you really believe there is no difference between a knife and a gun? Dead is dead, but 33 dead is worse than 8. Had the killer used a gun, the result would have been much worse... there is no denying that.
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ballsofstone
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If you remove the gang bangers killing each other which do not count anyways Canada an the U.S. have very similar per capita murder rates with fire arms.


It is indicitive of our society, everybody is touchy feely that no one will stand up for them selves, one student on the news claimed to have watched the guy reload, why was he not rushed.

About 10 years ago a similiar thing happened in a chinese school, guy started shooting and was immediatly rushed by every one in the hall way.

Jesse you do not think that slasher films, video games that glorify stealing cars and shooting cops in the face and songs with lyrics like die muthafucker die do not affect people, especially youth? Why do you think every special interest group on the planet recruits at universities ? Because even at 18 to 25 peoples ideas can be change and influenced heavily. University students are proof of that.
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Jesse Snadden
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and South Africa is on par with the US.


Isn't South Africa suffering from the blood diamond trade and a rebel uprising... practically civil war there.
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Jesse Snadden
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Why don't gangbangers count? We have them in Canada too.. hell I met the Hell's Angels when they all stopped by a motel I used to work at. Cop cars were everywhere watching their every move.

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Jesse you do not think that slasher films, video games that glorify stealing cars and shooting cops in the face and songs with lyrics like die muthafucker die do not affect people, especially youth?


No I don't think so. As long as a song can't load and fire a gun, I think it has nothing to do with it. Slasher films and violent games are available in other countries as well.

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It is indicitive of our society, everybody is touchy feely that no one will stand up for them selves, one student on the news claimed to have watched the guy reload, why was he not rushed.


Don't take long to reload and cock a handgun. Msot people don't want to be the next victim on that list.
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Frozenkilt
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But they aren't as prolific as they are in North America. And, taking emotion out of it, 30 people didn't have to die yesterday if the guy would have been rushed. The greatest weapon this guy wielded was fear.

- Sean
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ballsofstone
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And by the way one of the mass murders in the states was a women in Vegas decided to drive here caddilac up on a sidwalk and she killed a whole slew of people, no on calls foe the banning of cars. No on blamed the car.

People like to blame the gun though it is an inanimate object. The fact that the guy was a sociopath and why he chose to take 32 people with him seems irrelavant
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ballsofstone
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No I don't think so. As long as a song can't load and fire a gun, I think it has nothing to do with it. Slasher films and violent games are available in other countries as well.



that is a fucking cop out answer if there ever was one
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MaxPower
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Media doesn't influance? Well, kids that don't watch pro wrestling usually don't try to give there friends stone cold stunners.

A couple years a go a 16 year old tried to give one to a school principal, said he did it because he say it on tv and it looked cool.

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Jesse Snadden
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But they aren't as prolific as they are in North America.


I'm assuming you mean the gangbangers and by North America you meant the USA, as I met the Hell Angels in Canada. Well Sean, that is my point, why is it more prolific in the USA?

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And, taking emotion out of it, 30 people didn't have to die yesterday if the guy would have been rushed. The greatest weapon this guy wielded was fear.


Easier said then done. You don't know how you would have reacted in that situation. Not sure your kids would need to be fatherless either. I'm pretty sure I would have ran out of the way. Being Hero can mean being dumb if it get's you killed.

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And by the way one of the mass murders in the states was a women in Vegas decided to drive here caddilac up on a sidwalk and she killed a whole slew of people, no on calls foe the banning of cars. No on blamed the car.  People like to blame the gun though it is an inanimate object. The fact that the guy was a sociopath and why he chose to take 32 people with him seems irrelavant


This is totally rediculous... a gun's sole purpose is to kill life. A car is a method of transportation. As I said earlier, there is no understanding a psychopath, they find weapons out of objects we see as ordinary. But give them a fully automatic machine gun instead of perhaps a dagger, and the death toll suddenly gets a lot higher.


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that is a fucking cop out answer if there ever was one


Actually it was a fucking good answer. Japan has the most violent of movies and games at their disposal. Their murder rate is very very low. Explain that smartass.
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Jesse Snadden
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A couple years a go a 16 year old tried to give one to a school principal, said he did it because he say it on tv and it looked cool.


You and I have both watched wrestling before. We haven't done stupid shit like that. The kid was obviously deranged, had he not done this, he would probably have pulled off something else as stupid.



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Jesse Snadden
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One issue no one gives attention to though is perhaps a lot of these issues arise from North America's terrible diet.

There have been numerous studies showing how simply supplementing on Omega 3's have tamed inmates and lowered violent behaviour.

With North America's sugar crazed society, which causes insulin levels to go haywire and make people awfully moody... or depressed.
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Frozenkilt
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Jesse Snadden
Apr 17 2007, 05:05 PM
Well Sean, that is my point, why is it more prolific in the USA?

Because there are 300 million of them and 30 million of us. And I know you're speaking per capita so it is supposedly apples to apples, but population density DOES affect socialization and theirs is a LOT higher.

- Sean
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Frozenkilt
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Jesse Snadden
Apr 17 2007, 05:12 PM
One issue no one gives attention to though is perhaps a lot of these issues arise from North America's terrible diet.

There have been numerous studies showing how simply supplementing on Omega 3's have tamed inmates and lowered violent behaviour.

With North America's sugar crazed society, which causes insulin levels to go haywire and make people awfully moody... or depressed.

See, now THAT is an interesting point too. Because NA DOES seem to be breeding a greater than required number of crazies and our overall health is dropping at a stunning rate.

This is the first time ever that a generation does NOT have an increase in our allotted spans from it's predecessor.

- Sean
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Jesse Snadden
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Ok, finally some agreeing... I might be mistaken, but doesn't Japan have more people per capita since they have such a small country?

Again about the nutritional side. Japan for the most part, eats a diet rich in seafood and omega 3's. They are also the longest living humans, with people going over the age of 100 being fairly common. They even had a 100yr old marathon runner I believe...

As for the guns... I know that they are inanimate objects on their own. But it takes one psychopath to wield it and take down 30+ people. Had he only owned a dagger, he might have taken down only 5-10. It's still unacceptable, but there would also have been a greater chance he would have been rushed.

I don't believe media has any bearing on us as a society. We know what is right from wrong the moment our mother smacked us on the ass when we did something wrong. We attribute bad behaviour with a consequence, as we grow up, that means the law, jail or capital punishment if available. This discourages the masses, but a serial killer will do what they do regardless of nature or nuture. It's a well known fact that they just don't have the same thought patterns we do. They are born that way.
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MaxPower
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We know what is right from wrong the moment our mother smacked us on the ass when we did something wrong.

That gets a parent a visit from child welfare now if others see it being done.
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Jesse Snadden
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That gets a parent a visit from child welfare now if others see it being done.


Ya and I disagree with that completly. Children do need to attribute bad behaviour with a consequence. They don't need to be hit hard though, so the other side of the spectrum is wrong too.

Quebec released an awesome video of what their child welfare agency does when they remove them from families and it was really obvious that the kids were not better off after either. Most of them become bums with no life skills whatsoever. It was done in a Michael Moore style. The guy who released that video struck shockwave through Quebec and the entire system has changed because of it.

Kids that were sexually abused or beaten were stuck in a shack and should they express their built up anger would be stuck in a cell similar to the hole in a prison. However the sexual predator would be given perhaps 2-4 months of jail and therapy. The therapy was payed for by the state. No therapy was offered ot the victim who probably needed it most, as it is fact that pedophiles cannot change. They always remain one.
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Frozenkilt
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Jesse Snadden
Apr 17 2007, 05:30 PM
Ok, finally some agreeing... I might be mistaken, but doesn't Japan have more people per capita since they have such a small country?

Jesse, you've GOT to stop bringing up Japan, man. That is NOT an apples to apples comparison. They have hundreds if not thousands of years of a COMPLETELY different social mindset than the European White Male (of which most of us are derived).

You could pack 10000 of them into a shipping crate and most of them would be apologizing to someone for crowding them.

And if you don't believe the media has any bearing on us as a society you are seriously blind to reality, pal. Companies wouldn't spend billions on advertising if it didn't work. And it's not limited to products. Thanks to MTV, reality shows and even youtube and the like, there are kids all over NA who think that being famous isn't just a chance thing, it's their DESTINY.

Look at how young girls dress now as opposed to how they dressed 20 years ago. You won't understand this part because you don't have kids, but I have had many discussions with my buddies about how hard it is to buy appropriate clothes for a young girl. I mean they have THONGS for 10 year old girls. And you don't think the media affects society?

- Sean
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Jesse Snadden
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So your saying we should completly ignore a country that is doing something better than us instead of trying to understand why it is so?

I'm not the one who is blind or close minded here.

I'm not going into the clothing thing, that's 100% dependant on the parent.
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