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| Reboot related question | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 10 2011, 02:12 PM (558 Views) | |
| Toshiko Sato | Jan 10 2011, 02:12 PM Post #1 |
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Time Lord
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So, I am in the process of re-reading through everything, but since we are apparently crazily prolific, that's taking a while--and I'm fairly sure I'm missing some stuff. What I can't work out and may be useful to know--what is the situation between Andy and Owen as far as Tosh is aware? I want to say she thinks they're arguing (apart from the brief happy trip to see Jack's lights in the forest), but I'm fairly sure I'm missing something. |
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| Owen Harper | Jan 10 2011, 09:19 PM Post #2 |
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Jam
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Well, let's see -- Owen was staying with Andy while he recovered from nearly getting his arm lasered off, and Tosh went to visit Owen and the conversation actually was going all right until Owen was -- well, Owen, and took something innocent the wrong way and basically bit Tosh's head off for being curious about his past. Owen got over himself by the time Andy got home to mildly not-really-yell-at-him and sort-of-sympathyse-due-to-mind-meld. About two days after that Tosh and Andy had that conversation about getting a coffee one of these days, and kissed, but I don't think they really talked about Owen at all. And I think Owen has generally been avoiding Tosh when he went into the Hub for treatment, but it was largely because he knew he'd fucked up, but didn't want to apologize, because he was still right, dammit. And he didn't want to bring any of it up again, so he was just waiting for it to kind of blow over. So I think actually where we stand is that Owen and Andy have a sort of uneasy truce filled with lots of 'i can sympathize with your predicament because of shared experience, but let's not talk about why that's so' and also 'we are men and therefore suck at communicating openly about emotional issues,' but the sympathy is winning out so long as they don't poke it with a stick. Tosh and Owen are doing horribly, because Tosh has a stick and she just. keeps. poking. Tosh and Andy are doing great, because they are adorable. So I don't think she thinks they're arguing. I don't think she thinks they're friends, exactly, but I get the feeling she's a tiny bit jealous of Andy's closeness to Owen, even though she knows how horrible and awkward the whole thing is in a lot of ways. |
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| Captain Jack Harkness | Jan 10 2011, 09:54 PM Post #3 |
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Director, Torchwood-Three
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Did Owen and Tosh ever resolve the Owen and Tosh sex during the Lightbox stuff? Or was it ignored, sort of the way ... most emotional things are in T'wood. I recall that Jack was all sadface that it was artificially induced. |
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| Owen Harper | Jan 10 2011, 10:19 PM Post #4 |
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Jam
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I don't think it's been brought up directly since the bit in Jack's office where Owen knocks Tosh out since he can't give her pain meds. And even then they didn't deal with it too directly, in the emotional sense -- Owen is under the impression that Tosh was only having sex with him because of the pheromones. Largely in the Tosh-is-out-of-his-league-or-playing-a-different-ballgame sense, which was what he'd always thought in the past based on their interactions. Owen admitted it was a stupid thing for him to go along with in the manner in which he did, but no feeling-words were actually used. |
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| Owen Harper | Jan 10 2011, 10:25 PM Post #5 |
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Jam
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Also, at this point I think both Andy and Owen know about Tosh's past, but neither of them knows that the other knows, and Jack doesn't know that either of them know. Is that right? I mean, Owen's dropped hints that he's got a clue at Jack, but I don't think Jack's figured out that Owen knows. Unless Greene said something, but I don't think she did. |
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| Captain Jack Harkness | Jan 10 2011, 10:39 PM Post #6 |
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Director, Torchwood-Three
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Green hasn't said. I knew Owen knew but how did Andy? Wasn't the reveal after the mind meld? And, Jack doesn't know that either of them know, yeah. |
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| Owen Harper | Jan 10 2011, 10:47 PM Post #7 |
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Jam
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Tosh told Andy (in slightly less detail, putting Jack in a better light) when they were packing to leave for the Valiant. |
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| Toshiko Sato | Jan 11 2011, 03:41 AM Post #8 |
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Time Lord
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Thanks for the recap PM!
THIS. Though I don't think Tosh has articulated it to herself, I think the green-eyed monster is definitely rearing its ugly head. At the moment I don't think she's spent enough time with the two of them for the feeling to coalesce into anything more than a vague distaste for it--after Mary and the necklace, Tosh is wary--but I think the idea of Owen and Andy being intimate in a way she can't ever hope to understand or match will be quite difficult for her if/when it confronts her head-on. Given how lonely she is and the general mess of her life, I think her reaction to it wouldn't be entirely a more healthy person's distaste at the idea of such a loss of privacy and blurring of identity. I think she'd feel resentful that on top of her restraint and quietness, the man she thinks she might really like and the man she's loved futilely for years have a closer bond between themselves than either of them could ever have with her.
I don't think it has been resolved at all, no, and I'm assuming that if they ever want to reach some sort of ceasefire again they'll need to discuss that properly (inasmuch as Tosh and Owen could ever have an open and frank discussion about How They Feel). Tosh's memory of it isn't anywhere as clear as Owen's--though she can recall the pertinent details--and I think at the moment she's quite consciously pretending that it never happened. Given Owen has no idea that Tosh has more than a little crush on him, he can hardly be blamed for not realising that emotionally it probably should have bigger fallout than Tosh is letting on. I think the only way for things to be fully sorted out is for Owen to find out how Tosh felt/feels, and I don't think she's going to offer that information unless there's some sort of duress/imminent death going on.
Yeah, Andy and Owen both know about Tosh's past, but I think Owen's closer to knowing the emotional truth of it, so to speak. The version Andy heard was a lot less vicious, and Jack certainly came out of it looking better--if Tosh had described the wording on her contract Andy probably would have thrown a fit. |
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| Captain Jack Harkness | Jan 11 2011, 04:38 AM Post #9 |
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Director, Torchwood-Three
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Yeah, well, anyone with half a brain -- or less screwed up than Jack and Tosh -- should throw a fit. Tosh has a bad case of Stockholm Syndrom, IMO, and Jack just doesn't get that sometimes the quick and dirty solution is ... too dirty. |
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| Toshiko Sato | Jan 11 2011, 08:29 AM Post #10 |
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Time Lord
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I'd love to see Andy, Gwen or Martha find out about the specifics of Tosh's past, her shiny new contract and particularly Jack's behaviour. I think out of the entire team they're the only people who would understand the full extent of how utterly fucked up it is. Owen might get angry, but after what Jack did to his own life I can't imagine he'd be surprised. Ianto and Tosh I think are in the same head-space, or at least comparable head-spaces, regarding Jack: they might be able to list a few things he's done wrong, but I think they both have a ridiculous amount of loyalty and see Jack as a saviour figure rather than someone who could charitably be called "morally complex". I think Tosh for one isn't even conscious of how much her view of Jack is highly selective; I think the 'decisions' she makes on how to see him take place on a very deep unconscious level as a self-defence mechanism. How could she live with everything if she really faced up to the position she's in -- the position which, to a large extent, Jack put her in? Tosh needs to see Jack as the person who looks out for her; she needs to overlook the cruelty of his behaviour when he took her from UNIT, and she needs to see that contract as a kindness. So, in short: one of the more normal members of the team totally needs to find out. Also, I read part of an amazing academic work on the psychology of cults (!) and especially their leaders which I thought was really, really interesting from a TW perspective. I'll try to find the reference. |
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| Captain Jack Harkness | Jan 11 2011, 09:09 AM Post #11 |
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Director, Torchwood-Three
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It's both painful and heartbreaking to read some of Tosh's reactions to Jack. You can see so clearly how the both of them are … tangled up in this very unhealthy relationship. Jack adores Tosh and hates seeing her suffer or afraid, which makes him do really, really stupid things. I also think it's facinating and pretty … sad to know that Jack is, in many ways, simply imitating what he learned in Torchwood in the past. I think he's slightly more aware than Tosh is, intellectually, of what he's doing but between the Time Agency and Torchwood, I think he's a bit at sea morally speaking. It makes me *sadface* sometimes because Jack ends up wearing the villan coat more often than most of the villans Torchwood deals with – and I know how much he genuinely cares about his team and wants them to like and respect him. He just wants loves, guys! I wish there'd been a little more follow-up in the 'Small Worlds' ep – it was clear that the team thought Jack's choice was beyond the pale but the whole issue dissapeared next ep. And, yeah, I think cult is a good fit for the group. You know who I really want to figure this out? Greene. The outside eye is facinating to me. Edited by Captain Jack Harkness, Jan 11 2011, 09:09 AM.
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| Toshiko Sato | Jan 11 2011, 09:22 AM Post #12 |
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Time Lord
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Bingo, found the article: Sex, Lies & Grand Schemes of Thought, by A Collective of Women. Extensive references to Judith Herman's 1992 Trauma & Recovery. I don't think it's a perfect comparison for a few key reasons, but it's an interesting way to provoke thought. I think Jack struggles against a darker side of his personality, and I think that darker side is exemplified in some of this essay. You can pretty much ignore the third part when they go in to discussing sexism in cults, and of course the beliefs TW has re: aliens etc. are well-founded. But the psychological control techniques are definitely things Jack is capable of at his worst. And try to read the big about Total Surrender, or Breaking the Personality without seeing Ianto and Lisa... I also think the fairly blind responses of devotion and adoration inspired in followers pretty well map onto some members of TW. Obviously this article focuses on groups that use only psychological captivity, and at least one member of TW is a captive in a very physical sense too (Tosh can hardly leave.) But it's still hugely interesting. At the risk of making this post stupidly long, I've quoted here what I think are the relevant parts.
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| Toshiko Sato | Jan 11 2011, 09:27 AM Post #13 |
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Time Lord
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I think this is what makes the relationship most interesting to me--that, despite and beyond how intensely damaging and destructive it is (for both of them I think) it is also genuine. Tosh really does care for Jack, and he really does care for her. Unfortunately this is also in a framework of the realities of Tosh's situation, and the fact that Jack will never entirely be able to shrug off how, and who, he was taught to be in the past. I don't think Jack is evil--I think Jack has a huge problem with thinking that the ends pretty much always justify the means. That and the fact that he is removed from everyone in a pretty fundamental way--run of the mill, mortal humanity will always be at one step removed from him. Greene has enough work in TW to last her a lifetime! |
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| Captain Jack Harkness | Jan 11 2011, 09:51 AM Post #14 |
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Director, Torchwood-Three
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I think that Jack went through, in his time, the same thing he's putting everyone else through and was taught that's the normal way to manage the kind of situation everyone's in. In my background, I see the Time Agency as intentionally breaking down identity and personality and either chosing or creating people who are … morally very screwed up. Since I'm accepting the stuff he's done, according to canon, in Torchwood (including the 456 event in 1965) his beliefs are as self-protective as Tosh's. I also think he genuinely believes that in-grouping and isolation are protective considering the things that Torchwood asks its members to do (if you care about all those outsiders too much, it's hard to shoot them in the head). It makes his choosing of Gwen (and, in game, Andy) and his treatment of them, very interesting. If you assume he's aware, at least in some sense, of what he usually does, it's a break from his past behavior. It also explains why he's often weird in his treatment of Gwen, espeically – since he has no real idea how to manage her without doing what he usually does. I think the saddest thing about Jack is that he spent just enough time with the Doctor and Rose to begin to realize that things could be different – without learning how. Then, the abrupt abandonment, and the method, left him even more messed up. |
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| Owen Harper | Jan 11 2011, 10:17 AM Post #15 |
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Jam
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Andy would absolutely flip his lid. All of them would. But you're right, with Owen's own position, he doesn't really think that it's something they could fix. He can lie to Tosh and say he does, if it makes her feel better, but deep down he thinks she's just as trapped as him. And Owen -- well, the whole cult mentality really works there, because as Gwen pointed out (though she doesn't know the whole situation), if Owen really wanted to, he could get away and start over somewhere else. But he's cut off too much of his old self, his old identity, and in a lot of ways he doesn't know how to be anything other than what he is now. And the realization of that, which he's been coming to, is leaving him floundering in a lot of ways. Owen did start to voice some of his concerns to Greene, but he'd promised Tosh he wouldn't tell anyone what she'd told him, so it was pretty bland and undetailed. And if he found out that Andy knew, and they compared notes, he'd fill Andy in on the details for sure. Which would be interesting to see, because Andy would of course demand to know why Owen hadn't objected more, or done something, or whatever, and then there'd be that discussion. I also kind of wonder what Tosh would think if she found out about Owen's situation re: Jack. Even aside from the whole 'dead fiancée' part, the blackmail. |
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| Captain Jack Harkness | Jan 11 2011, 10:25 AM Post #16 |
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Director, Torchwood-Three
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I think she'd be outraged. In some ways the idea of all this getting out is very tempting, in others ... I have no idea what would happen if the dynamic was exposed like that. |
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| Owen Harper | Jan 11 2011, 12:29 PM Post #17 |
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Jam
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It would change a damn lot. I don't really think all of it getting out is a good idea, we don't want them all holding hands and sharing their feelings. But the openness dynamic between these three -- well. It's. |
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| Andy Davidson | Jan 11 2011, 09:20 PM Post #18 |
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Blames The Jam
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Jebus, people! I have a day with minimal Internet access (training at work, two stories to edit/send back, Philosophy class) and I come back to this. *tiny fistshake* From Andy's side, his attitude with Owen at this point is that while Owen is more than his apparent default settings (being "sulk" and "pissing match"), it's taking some ingenuity on his part to make those things manifest. Both of them have a usual way of dealing with people, and getting those to mesh is kind of tricky. At this point Andy feels like they've achieved something of a truce; he's found a sort of peace on his side, and neither of them seems to be going out of their way to provoke the other anymore. If anything, Andy's moved toward feeling like he and Owen are capable of getting along, especially now that they've got a little bit of distance and Andy's not being quite as presumptuous with the stuff laying around in his head, Torchwood, etc. Re: Tosh, he's only got the barest understanding of the situation with UNIT, Torchwood, etc. I expect he'd blow a serious gasket if he found out about the real state of affairs, though the views he has about justice and safety would make it a complicated issue for him. He'd understand why Tosh did what she did, but on some level he'd have to parse "did something stupid, dangerous, and possibly treasonous" with the obvious violations of her human rights, etc. Re: Owen, I think maybe he's just been lucky enough not to think about the wrong thing and stumble on that little gem. His trust in Jack can be pretty important to keeping him from acting out, and the blackmail angle runs the risk of provoking some cynicism on Andy's part. We see in CoE that Andy'll change sides and fight under the right circumstances. Full-scale rebellion is not entirely out of the question if things got extreme. |
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| Owen Harper | Jan 11 2011, 09:37 PM Post #19 |
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Jam
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Haha, sorry! I only had about 3 hours worth of work today, and spent the rest sitting around on my ass. Though, uh, yeah, most of this was typed at work. *offers cranberry bread*
This, most definitely. Owen's hardly poked at Andy's memories, because a. he's a privacy nut, and b. he's too busy trying to stabilize his own fractured brain. The only times he's used Andy's memories have been to lash out, really. And if he had to really fight with Andy about something, he'd totally pull it out, but for him it's a last resort and it's really put him back a step that Andy's so readily digging through his memories. Andy apologizing and leaving that alone is definitely helping to settle things down. |
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| Captain Jack Harkness | Jan 11 2011, 10:04 PM Post #20 |
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Director, Torchwood-Three
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*winces* I don't think Jack is up to another mutiny, right now. Between not entirely over the Year and the revist to the Valiant and the effort he is actually making to fix things he's somewhat out of his comfort zone. |
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